Author Topic: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement  (Read 1695 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline czecherated

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Wondering if anyone has encountered this before and whether it's an adjustment or break in issue.

Shooting 25yd bullseye w my new Shadow 2, at about 150 rds.  SA has betw 1/8 and 1/16 inch of creep.  No biggie.  Sometimes i struggle to keep steady and my shot isn't working out, so don't take a bad shot.  I'm taking a shot working through the creep before let off but I know it's going to be a bad shot so I go to engage the safety but it won't go up.  I push the hammer all the way back and now the safety engages.

So I unload and try it again and the problem is repeatable.  Take up the SA creep just before let off and stop and try to engage the safety.  I have to work the hammer back to engage the safety.

Is this common?  Is there some kind of transfer bar thing going on?  The pistol shoots great, but this is a little odd.  Aside from an H&K P9S I had a hundred years ago and don't remember much, this is the only DA/SA pistol I've had.
NRA Life Member 209860422

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4785
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2019, 07:37:55 AM »
Sounds to me like the sear is moving just enough to keep the safety from engaging - but not enough to release the hammer.

The sear has a forward facing "arm" on it that the cam on the left side safety shaft rotates under when the safety is moved to the SAFE position.  Yours seems to have a real good/real close fit.

On a pistol with a large/deep cut in the hammer for the sear you can afford more "slop" in the fit between the arm on the sear and the cam on the safety shaft.  On a pistol with a very shallow cut in the hammer (those with a very nice, crisp trigger pull) you need a very precise/close fit between the arm on the sear and the cam on the safety shaft.  It takes less movement of the sear to release the hammer on a pistol like that and you don't want the trigger to release the hammer when the pistol is on safe.

While I can't remember ever trying to put the pistol on safe after NOT pulling the trigger all the way I do know that if I start a trigger pull and feel some movement and don't fire the pistol I will reach my thumb up and move the hammer to the rear before letting the hammer back down to it's resting position - so my next trigger pull is the same as the previous ones.  Seems to work in my head, that way.

I can't say whether your pistol is "okay" or "not okay."  I can say that I wouldn't be happy with a pistol that wouldn't go on safe without first manually moving the hammer.  Seems like yours needs a little work to get that trigger/sear/hammer fit improved.

I'm not a gunsmith, I'm not a competitive shooter, I'm just a guy who likes a nice crisp trigger.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline czecherated

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2019, 09:14:57 AM »
Thanks, M1A4ME.  Where does one send the pistol in these situations, out for customization or back to the factory?  If this were an American semi custom 1911, I think I'd send it back.
NRA Life Member 209860422

Offline CrazyDave

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 10:05:48 AM »
CZ will almost certainly take it back, if you choose.  Their customer service is great.  Cajun Gun Works or CZ Custom seem to be top choices for custom work.  There is something to the safety I read, it's in the manual talking about not to engage it or bad things could happen when...I think the hammer is down..or you try to pull the trigger in this condition?  I don't remember...maybe some research will help ya more. 

Offline jnichols2

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 38
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2019, 05:38:30 PM »
czecherated,
Don't know how much help I can be.  Mine has so little creep that as soon as I try to duplicate your issue, the gun goes off.
I did get the trigger to release after creep once (maybe 1/32").  The safety hung for an instant, then engaged.

What CrazyDave mentioned is not to engage the safety when the hammer is on the Safety Notch.

Maybe your gun is OK, but it won't hurt to check with CZ CS.

Offline Tok36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2019, 06:40:04 PM »
I am interested to hear how this plays out once the pistol is well broken in. I have experienced what OP is talking about, in my cases the Trigger Return Spring moves the trigger forward and the hammer back to the full cocked position when i release the trigger in SA.  My examples are 75 variants, i have no personal experience with the Shadow 2.

I assume that once the surface of the sear and hammer hooks smooth out that it may take care of its self. I am interested to hear what you find out OP. We all learn from this stuff.
Will work for CZ pics! (including but not limited to all CZ clones)

Offline czecherated

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 07:10:39 PM »
Hi Folks,

I'm not talking about engaging the safety on half cock - which I'm not supposed to do.  This is firing single action.  The  trigger does creep more than I would expect from an out-of-the-box competition gun, but I will put a few hundred more rounds through it, watching carefully so there are no mishaps.  I find that rushing to rework a gun can be a mistake.  The weights of double action and single action pull here seem fine - maybe double could be a little lighter but is does not affect me much.  My 1911's are between 2.2 and 3.5 lbs, so the single action weight here is all right - and the creep is not so awful, it's just the business of not being able to reengage the safety w/o re cocking the hammer.  And it's not really recocking the hammer because it is in position to fire, it just needs to be pushed all the way back again into the groove on the tang.
NRA Life Member 209860422

Offline adrian

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 943
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 07:18:18 PM »
     Hiya czecherated and thanks for your thread. I'd be most interested in you having a mate close up vid you,since you should be able to duplicate it without the gun being loaded. As the way I picture your issue dosent make sense to me. M1A4ME not being a do it yourselfer made my brain hurt like when I studied quadratic equations.
     Being a DA/SA and you describing the creep in your SA,is that right? And the creep is what you are feeling when you begin your trigger prep after a shot in SA and before the next shot? This suggests that you are taking your finger off the trigger instead of letting up pressure until you feel the reset. Is that a fair assumption?
     If you are backing out of a shot that you began in SA, you safety should engage, thats cocked and locked as we know it. If you back out of a DA shot,it should still allow safety engagement if the trigger returned to full DA pull or half cock of the hammer. Only way I can see the safety not engage is because you have begin to apply some lbs of pressure on the trigger. Vid please. Cz -usa would fix a mechanical issue no doubt but not hearing/seeing the problem.
     I'm all for safely backing out of a shot if the target is identified as friendly before the hammer drops, or you don't get a clean bullseye lined up. Be well.

Offline czecherated

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2019, 07:50:57 PM »

Yes, backing out of a shot that I began in single action.  Correct, I am not using reset.  I am firing single shots and, if I need to rebuild my stance or my arm has been up too long, I engage the safety, rest a second and rebuild the position finding my natural point of aim.  That is correct, have applied pressure and stopped.  Try to engage the safety and cannot unless I first put the hammer back. I can try to do a video, not a smart phone user, but will get around to it.
NRA Life Member 209860422

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4785
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2019, 08:12:10 PM »
My CZ75 Compact (converted to look/operate like a CZ85 - has ambidextrous thumb safeties, ambidextrous slide release levers and a spur hammer).

The red arrow points at the cam lobe on the left side safety lever shaft.  The green arrow points at the forward arm on the sear.

When you move the safety to the safe position, the cam rotates clockwise to move under the forward arm on the sear - which keeps the trigger bar from moving the sear and releasing the hammer to fire the pistol.

When you move the safety to the fire position, the cam rotates counter clockwise to move out from under the forward are on the sear - that allows the trigger bar to move the sear and release the hammer to fire the pistol.



Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline czecherated

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2019, 09:59:09 PM »
I can try to create the condition with the slide off, if it does not risk damaging anything.
NRA Life Member 209860422

Offline hansb57

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 01:09:23 AM »
My Shadow 2 is fairly new and I encountered the same problem as you described.
I recognize the safety problem but instead of trying to put it on safe I "recock" it without touching the trigger.
For me the trigger creeping was a reason to change the sear and hammer within 1 week of owning the gun.
 

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4785
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 06:44:51 AM »
I can see, if all the parts meet/match up just "wrong", a situation where what you have occurring.

1.  full cock notch and sear engagement allows a little more sear movement than you might want/need
2.  sear forward arm and safety engagement surfaces result in the cam on the safety lever being just tall enough not to rotate back under the forward arm on the sear after a small amount of sear movement - but I can't say which surface (bottom of sear forward arm surface or top of the cam on the safety shaft is the culprit.

I'll bet CZ can straighten it out real quick.

The more I see/read this thread the more I wonder about checking a couple of mine.  I mostly shoot/carry the Omega models these days but I do have a couple/three of the order style safety CZ's.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline tdogg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1354
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 12:26:28 PM »
The interface between the safety protrusion and the sear safety leg is very tight.  When you are progressing through the creep pulling the trigger, you are rotating the sear (and sear safety leg) into an interference with the safety protrusion.  I imagine you could force the safety on but it might not be good for the sear edge rubbing backwards on the hammer hook.  The easier solution is to get a competition hammer that has less creep.  You'll be surprised how much crisper the trigger break is (literally).

I don't like to drop the hammer without the slide installed on the frame.  It's happened by accident a time or two but I wouldn't do it regularly.  If you want to investigate the trigger action with the slide off, then I'd put a small rag or a foam ear plug in the hammer channel to dampen the impact.

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 06:46:44 PM by tdogg »

Offline M1A4ME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4785
  • I've shot the rest, I now own the best - CZ
Re: Interesting Issue w Shadow 2 Trigger Creep and Safety Engagement
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 01:37:20 PM »
Just tried two of mine.

The pistol that is in the picture I posted earlier, a CZ75 Compact I converted to use CZ85 ambidextrous controls and installed a CZ spur hammer in.  The trigger pull is very crisp on this one, not light at 3 lbs., but crisp enough you have to prove it to yourself with the trigger pull ga. that it really is as much as 3 lbs.  The only CZ I have with a nicer trigger is the CZ Tactical Sport .40 and it's SAO.  This pistol has the factory sear (it's my horror story about the work required to make a factory sear fit/work with a nice hammer).

Anyway, I can't feel this one move the trigger (after the firing pin block is up) except every now and then, but if I hold it just right in the light I can usually detect a small amount of hammer movement from the light on the side of the hammer.  If I manage to pull the trigger back enough to see that little bit of movement, and then let up on the trigger it is easy to move the safety from the FIRE positioin to the SAFE position.  No catch, bump felt any differently than if moved from SAFE to FIRE and back to SAFE.

Second pistol is my new CZ75B .40.  Totally stock, never fired (by me).  I can see the hammer move back quite a ways on this one as I pull the trigger and it's easy to stop before that hammer falls.  If I let up on the trigger it's also easy to move the safety back to the SAFE position.

I'm an impatient sort of guy.  If it was mine I'd fix it myself. 

You might ought to call CZ USA and tell them what it's doing.  They shouldn't expect you to have to thumb cock it back just to put it on safe.  I've only had to send one pistol back for work (front night sight on a P01) and I had the pistol back in 10 days even with FEDEX "losing" it for 3 days in a warehouse up in Maryland.  Give'em a call and explain your issue.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.