Author Topic: Was the CZ-75 designed for hammer down carry or cocked and locked carry?  (Read 8862 times)

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Offline larryflew

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I think with all of the strict rules to the civilians,same apply to European police.Thats why I think Condition 3/Israeli carry is the most common and fool proof way to carry there.My CCL instructor was an ex Israeli special forces guy,he was training us to rack the slide while you extending your hand forward and pointing your gun after unholstering,so by the time your hand is fully extended,slide is already racked and round is  in the chamber,sights on target.And he was very efficient in that,whole process would take him fraction of a second.Thats the way I prefer to carry,especially if I carry my S&W MP 2.0 compact.

Why bother even carrying then? That method assumes that both hands are available, the workspace is clear, and that you are capable of consciously performing the task while under stress. Too many factors to go wrong if the need to draw the gun occurs. To me that is practicing to fail and fail hard.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

Interesting article in this months NRA Shooting magazine on reasons why NOT to carry without one in the chamber.
When did it change from "We the people" to "screw the people"?

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Larry

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Why use 911 when it's faster to use 1911 or 9mm?

Offline larryflew

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I rarely carry,I live in a suburbs,nothing happens here and everywhere you go has a sign ?no Beretta?,you can have it in your car or outside,that is it.So I have no need or possibility to play Rambo 24/7.CCL for me is for Justin Case situation and to be able to trough it on the front seat when going to the range,

? ? ? ? ? ?
When did it change from "We the people" to "screw the people"?

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Larry

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NRA life since the 70's
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Why use 911 when it's faster to use 1911 or 9mm?

Offline Tyerone

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Hmmm, a DA/SA design. . . DA= Double Action = "hammer down carry"
Nice to have a choice, but why design a DA/SA gun if the intent was SA . . . only.

Offline retteryer

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Because some people don?t have piano player fingers and they can not reach cz trigger reliably when it is fully forward.
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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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I think with all of the strict rules to the civilians,same apply to European police.Thats why I think Condition 3/Israeli carry is the most common and fool proof way to carry there.My CCL instructor was an ex Israeli special forces guy,he was training us to rack the slide while you extending your hand forward and pointing your gun after unholstering,so by the time your hand is fully extended,slide is already racked and round is  in the chamber,sights on target.And he was very efficient in that,whole process would take him fraction of a second.Thats the way I prefer to carry,especially if I carry my S&W MP 2.0 compact.
Carrying in a covert or military setting is a far cry from carry on city streets where you may come under attack by one or more perps and likely won't see the attack coming from a distance. chances are you will never get the chance to rack the slide and fully extend your arm putting the sights on target. You may have to fire immediately from the holster,what then when you are standing there with an empty chamber?
I'll pass. Any gun I carry or keep out of the safe for home defense will be charged and ready at all times.


Offline M1A4ME

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The 1911 was mentioned.  Every look at real 1911?  Not the A1 (improvements based on WW1 results/reports).  Not the modern variants with all kinds of different sights, safeties, firing pin blocks, etc., etc.

The 1911 was designed when the revolver was king.  Look at a real Colt 1911.  The hammer has a wide spur to facilitate thumb cocking, like a Colt SA revolver.  The sights are like the tiny sights on the Colt SA revolvers.  Short (in height) front sight that is rounded on top, not flat and not serrated to break up glare/light.  The rear is short (height) and has a tiny U shaped notch in it for the front sight.  The main spring housing is rounded (no humps) and smooth, like the grip frame on a Colt SA revolver.  The contact surface on the safety is small compared to just about any modern semi auto safety or decocking lever.  I'm not sure the safety was expected to be used like they are used today.  If so, why make it so small/difficult to operate as compared to modern safeties?

The Hi-Power was also a John Browning design (or started that way before he died before it was complete/accepted for production.  Many people say the Hi-Power has improvements that the US Military and Colt would not allow him to put into the 1911.

Someone made a comment (above post) that he CZ75 was designed to compete with the other semi-auto pistols already in service at the time.  So it was designed with a thumb safety, not decocking levers.  Those came later.

How does the government tell soldiers to carry a weapon?  As safely as possible (where all the dumb rules come from about no round in the weapon - if they even issued you rounds at all).  A soldier or two gets killed here and there due to poor training and poor policies?  THEY DON"T CARE!  Accept that.  They really don't care, as long as they don't look bad to the government, their higher officers and the public.  You will never see a report that says the poor guy died because he wasn't properly trained/armed.  Even if you did do you really think the officer(s) who came up with the stupid rules will be properly disciplined?

Why double action?  Makes it real quick/easy to hit that primer a second time if it didn't go off the first time.  Much quicker than racking the slide.  How many times have all of us read here/else where about a round not going off the first time but going off the second time?  Of course, it always gets blamed on the primer not being seated correctly but consider it could be something else, sometimes.

A new guy eases the slide forward rather than letting it go.  Training, not wanting to damage the pistol, etc.  The slide doesn't quite close (and it doesn't take much on a CZ75) so when the trigger is pulled the hammer finishes pushing the slide into battery but the round didn't go off.   The second time the trigger is pulled through double action it goes bang and then it operates normally as the new guy isn't easing the slide forward.

The pistol is lacking some lubricant, or it hasn't been properly cleaned and it's dragging due to dirt/friction  and you get a similar situation where the slide just didn't make it all the way forward.  The hammer could knock it into battery and the double action pull would set off the primer.

Military guys seldom get to practice enough that they don't have two different POI's vs. POA's when going from a DA first round to SA following that first round.  If they're smart, once they get away from that dumb officer, they'll "fix" that pistol/rifle/shotgun so that it is ready to save their lives and the lives of their buddies around them when they need it.

And, as a DA/SA design, the pistol would appeal to more buyers as they could have their soldiers/officers carry it the way their leaders felt the safest/most comfortable.  Either SA/cocked and locked or DA with the hammer down.

I know how I carry mine.  Cocked and locked.  I don't have a single decocker CZ.  The Omega pistols are set up  with the safeties instead of the decocking levers.  I even bought a big old XD Tactical .45 just because the darn thing is one of those seldom seen models with, you guessed it, ambidextrous thumb safeties.

I read/see all the time where people say, "I don't trust myself that I'll remember to push the safety to the off position if I need to use my pistol."  Really, you carry a pistol you don't practice with/use enough to know how to operate without having to take the time to remember how?  Do you have to remember: 

How to grab it with your hand?
How to line the sights up with each other and the target?
How to squeeze the trigger?
How to grab the spare magazine and insert it (as long as you didn't forget to hit the magazine release before trying to insert the spare).
How to release the slide to chamber that first round from the spare magazine?

Drive a manual transmission car/truck?  Who has to remember how, or even when, to shift gears?  Who has to remember when they need to hit the brakes?

I really like my M1 Garands and even my M1A but I've just about quit shooting them or taking them on road trips.  Know why?  When I had an AR15 in my hands I kept hitting the mag. release button instead of the safety.  Dropping a loaded magazine is just wrong.  The only thing I could figure was using my trigger finger to push the mag. release was a similar (instinctive) movement to using my trigger finger to put the M1/M1A on safe after I shot a group.  I had to choose between one or the other.  To keep the .30 caliber muscle available I bought a GII 7.62X51/.308.  And I like it.  Works just like the AR15's.  Looks like the AR15's (just a bit bigger here and there.)
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline retteryer

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Guys,I?ve got your point and I agree with M1A4ME,when your gun operating skills become reflexes you are good to go to carry cocked and locked or however you want.I do not carry CZ?s,I carry either Makarov or MP.Makarov is a single stack and very slim,I carry it with a round in a chamber, hammer down,BUT,I can reliably reach  it?s trigger in fully forward position and make first shot, and Makarov safety is very safe,you have to really work it with your thumb to move it into  ON or OFF position.MP is striker fired,I feel like carrying it with a round in a chamber and trigger ready to go, is asking for an accident to happen.And again,I live in Illinois,COOK county,in a good area,carrying makes more problems than necessary and is not needed,because chances that anything going to happen are very slim,close to non.One of my friends carry all the time,leave his house with emergency back pack,wearing baggy jeans and shirts,I?m just not into it.I like to have a right to carry when I need to,but do I have to do it all the time and only take it off when showering,I don?t think so.
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Offline larryflew

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If you have been to Gunsite or other training facilities you may have already done some of these drills to see if empty chamber carry works for you.

First, most assailants can cover 21 feet in less than 2 seconds so lets base the drills on that. Firing will always be 2 rounds at 21 foot target so you get the DA and the SA second shot.

#1 have someone hit a competition timer for you, when you hear the beep draw, rack and fire. What's your time?  Your probably only dead by a second or so if you have practiced a LOT.

#2 With a box of ammo in your support hand (hold anything), now draw rack and fire in a way you are comfortable with as in dropping ammo box or rack using belt or ??. Whats your time?

#3 same drill but no drop this time because you're practicing one hand out of commission.  Time?

#4 almost same drill but this time it's your shooting hand that is out of commission. You figure out how to draw rack and fire. Time?

If the difficulty didn't already get you killed the addition of a timer throws your adrenalin out of wack just enough to mess with your time which will happen in a real life defensive situation.
When did it change from "We the people" to "screw the people"?

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        )'_\   (
'            \ *\
'              \ _\


Larry

Minnesota shooter
and CZ fanatic
NRA life since the 70's
USAF 66-70

Why use 911 when it's faster to use 1911 or 9mm?

Offline Spad124

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Guys,I?ve got your point and I agree with M1A4ME,when your gun operating skills become reflexes you are good to go to carry cocked and locked or however you want.I do not carry CZ?s,I carry either Makarov or MP.Makarov is a single stack and very slim,I carry it with a round in a chamber, hammer down,BUT,I can reliably reach  it?s trigger in fully forward position and make first shot, and Makarov safety is very safe,you have to really work it with your thumb to move it into  ON or OFF position.MP is striker fired,I feel like carrying it with a round in a chamber and trigger ready to go, is asking for an accident to happen.And again,I live in Illinois,COOK county,in a good area,carrying makes more problems than necessary and is not needed,because chances that anything going to happen are very slim,close to non.One of my friends carry all the time,leave his house with emergency back pack,wearing baggy jeans and shirts,I?m just not into it.I like to have a right to carry when I need to,but do I have to do it all the time and only take it off when showering,I don?t think so.

When I read your ?no Beretta? comment I figured you live in IL. The state authorized no CC sign is a circle slashed Beretta 92.  I also live in IL, Winnebago Co, and will vouch that many private businesses have elected to not permit CC in their place of business.  But, the CCL does give us the option to carry in our vehicles, which can be valuable, and in ?open? establishments.

A shorttime ago I asked on the S&W forum why the US military required condition 3 for 1911s.  The general response from ex military was that due to lack of adequate training for 18 year olds who had never been around firearms before the military limited the likelihood of NDs by requiring condition 3 unless there was imminent danger.   Many also commented that when on guard duty or MP duty that they were only given 2-3 rounds for their 1911s. 

Offline bang bang

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it would be nice to look at the original designers notes to see what the design criteria was for them.

but with that said, i would also look at the original purpose of the gun, IE military and or Police use.

Im not sure who used the CZ 75 platform as a Military or Police use, but i would wonder how many of them would carry C&L?  I dont see many LEOs doing that on ANY gun -not getting into the striker fired here for you fan boys of them - but strictly SA/DA guns. 

As far as what YOU choose to do,  thats up to you.


Offline retteryer

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LEO carry OWB in carbon fiber/plastic holsters and that?s a bit different and less prone to accidentall discharge because of its design.
CZ SP-01 9mm,CZ SP-01 Shadow,CZ75B Compact,CZ75B Cold War Memo Commemorative,CZ75B SA,DW VBob,Kadet Kit,CZ75B Brushed Stainless,CZ75B Polished Stainless.

Offline retteryer

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If you have been to Gunsite or other training facilities you may have already done some of these drills to see if empty chamber carry works for you.

First, most assailants can cover 21 feet in less than 2 seconds so lets base the drills on that. Firing will always be 2 rounds at 21 foot target so you get the DA and the SA second shot.

#1 have someone hit a competition timer for you, when you hear the beep draw, rack and fire. What's your time?  Your probably only dead by a second or so if you have practiced a LOT.

#2 With a box of ammo in your support hand (hold anything), now draw rack and fire in a way you are comfortable with as in dropping ammo box or rack using belt or ??. Whats your time?

#3 same drill but no drop this time because you're practicing one hand out of commission.  Time?

#4 almost same drill but this time it's your shooting hand that is out of commission. You figure out how to draw rack and fire. Time?

If the difficulty didn't already get you killed the addition of a timer throws your adrenalin out of wack just enough to mess with your time which will happen in a real life defensive situation.

If somebody can cover 21 feet in 2 seconds,than I for sure can do it too,in the opposite direction,racking on the go or just running away.Saved many more lives..Plus I?m on the bigger size,not six pack holder,but somewhere there,so unless I?m attacked by somebody very well trained or somebody with a knife,I can buy myself  some time.When I?ll get older I might reconsider my options.
CZ SP-01 9mm,CZ SP-01 Shadow,CZ75B Compact,CZ75B Cold War Memo Commemorative,CZ75B SA,DW VBob,Kadet Kit,CZ75B Brushed Stainless,CZ75B Polished Stainless.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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If you have been to Gunsite or other training facilities you may have already done some of these drills to see if empty chamber carry works for you.

First, most assailants can cover 21 feet in less than 2 seconds so lets base the drills on that. Firing will always be 2 rounds at 21 foot target so you get the DA and the SA second shot.

#1 have someone hit a competition timer for you, when you hear the beep draw, rack and fire. What's your time?  Your probably only dead by a second or so if you have practiced a LOT.

#2 With a box of ammo in your support hand (hold anything), now draw rack and fire in a way you are comfortable with as in dropping ammo box or rack using belt or ??. Whats your time?

#3 same drill but no drop this time because you're practicing one hand out of commission.  Time?

#4 almost same drill but this time it's your shooting hand that is out of commission. You figure out how to draw rack and fire. Time?

If the difficulty didn't already get you killed the addition of a timer throws your adrenalin out of wack just enough to mess with your time which will happen in a real life defensive situation.

If somebody can cover 21 feet in 2 seconds,than I for sure can do it too,in the opposite direction,racking on the go or just running away.Saved many more lives..Plus I?m on the bigger size,not six pack holder,but somewhere there,so unless I?m attacked by somebody very well trained or somebody with a knife,I can buy myself  some time.When I?ll get older I might reconsider my options.

I don't wish anyone any ill will and I pray profusely that you never have to test your theory in reality. You need to understand an attacker doesn't need any training. He only needs drug fueled rage and he can quickly show you how your size or self perceived strength are inadequate and possibly useless and if there's more than one the pack mentality comes into play.You have to consider that the criminal that may come for you may well be more animal than man. There are some HIGHLY trained persons who have fallen at the hands of much lesser assailants.

Offline retteryer

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I?ve been stabbed and I?ve been shot,it is not really a theory,I?ve been in a good fights when even your molars shifting in your gums,never  been looking for trouble,but was never running away from them.I assume you guys all ex special forces,SWAT veterans with lot of off the streets experience ?I mean I certainly know all the cliches listed above(please don?t take it in a bad way),but I?m 43 and I have some real life experience which allows me to make right decisions,I can realistically judge how dangerous some situations or places can be and be prepared based on that.
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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Well that sounds like an average day in Chicongo!