Author Topic: Help with OAL request  (Read 1067 times)

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Offline obsidianghost

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Help with OAL request
« on: September 15, 2019, 04:56:32 PM »
I need some help with my OAL I am very new to reloading, I have reloaded ~150 rnds and owned my press for 2 weeks.  I am also a new USPSA shooter.  I am a reader not a poster, this is my first post.  Sorry it's so long I tried to be thorough.

Firearm
My CZ pistol/rifle model is:  P-01
The caliber of my CZ is:  9mm
My CZ has the following changes:  CGW RRK
I use this CZ in the following ways:  USPSA and plinking
I want ammo accurate at:  25 feet at power factor 130

Components
I've been reloading for months/years:  Just started, 150 rounds completed
Fully describe the maker, weight, and type bullet: Blue Bullets 147gn FP
Powder (brand name and load range):  VV N320, 3.2-3.3gn
Primer:  Federal #100 spp
My Cartridge Over-All Length is: aiming for 1.130", with results from 1.120" to 1.142"

Reloading Equipment
Press brand and type:  Dillon XL 650
Dies:  Lee
Scale:  Frankford Arsenal DS-750 Digital & Ohaus 5-0-5 beam
Powder Measure:  Dillon
Do you have access to a chronograph ? No

Other Info
Exactly what is your load data and where did you get it ?  VV N320, 3.2gn got it from another reloader, verified on forums and VV load data for similar bullets.
What load manual do you use ?  Lyman's 50th
Where are you located ? Is your locale in your profile ?  Why not ? Oakland CA


Yesterday I decided to test some of my new reloads before a match. They all worked well and were accurate enough. I figured why not use them for the match. First two stages went fine then during the third the gun went click and wouldn't chamber a round after several tries I stopped.  A bullet was stuck in the barrel at just at the end of the chamber.  What I put together from an experienced CZ reloader on my squad, my observations in the moment, from reviewing the video and an at home experiment was; the round was too long and the gun didn't go into battery,  hammer dropped the firing pin didn't move (I verified with a pencil test that this is possible), when I pulled the slide back to check I pulled the case out but not the bullet and every time I attempted to chamber a round it just pushed the bullet further into the barrel.  This is the best explanation based on the evidence I have.  I was able to remove the bullet and saw no evidence of damage, I continued the match with factory ammo and had no further problems.


I bought my press from a retired USPSA GM, it was all setup for 9mm and he gave me the recipe, a ton of bullets and some powder to get me started.  I verified the load data was safe and good by searching forum posts and published load data. I inspected and verified each die and step in the process. I inspected and broke down each of the first 10-15 rounds i made. I ran every round though my case gauge and measured OAL. I also broke down and verified another 10-15 at random.


I followed Wobbly's How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ Pistol but I think I did something wrong or I just didn't understand.   I redid the procedure this morning and got pretty much the same results.  I did a half a dozen bullets pushed into spent cases came up with 1.157" - 1.170" the rest were in the 1.160s so I should have been good with a max of 1.145". I measured all of the rounds that I had left over ~25, only one was over 1.145" and it was 1.146".  I found the battery tab was loose on my calipers so maybe I missed a long one the first time. What I didn't do the first time was the mark and spin test, I forgot about it.  So I tested the rounds I had left largest to smallest, at 1.133" there is a very light mark and at 1.131" no mark.  Extra information this bullet will reach the powder around an OAL 1.100" or just under and hits the internal taper ~1.075.

Should I base my Max OAL on the spin test and make it 1.115" or am I missing something?

I had a pretty big, I felt, range on OAL, ~0.025", I was loading mixed range brass.  I read that the range would be large in that situation. I now have once fired and sorted by head stamp brass I would expect more consistency but I'm unsure how big the variation range should be.

If you made it though all that thank you, I appreciate your time.




Offline Erief0g

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2019, 06:48:49 PM »
New to the forum myself so wait for others to chime in.


Looking at the very detailed write up it looks like your oal is too long.


If your push to spin has you at 1.131 then per the guide as I understand you would want to be .015 under that measurement.  1.116 or thereabouts looks like your recommended oal.


Looking forward to more responses
Here to learn,and help if I can.
CZ SP01 Tactical decocker and  black and blue shadow 2. Wifes only CZ is her scorpion.

Offline Pistolet

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2019, 09:46:22 PM »
Hello, I'm from Oakland too.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 10:58:08 PM »
Thanks for using the template. That really, really helps.

The info you want is inside the very first Stickie at the top of the forum. That particular Stickie is a Directory of reloading things you need to know about working with the CZ pistol.


Other notes and observations...
• Lead is cheap but NOT the best place to start for a novice. Something to work up to.
• Lead bullets make it VERY difficult to get an OAL reading the way we do it
• Some 147gr bullets (being the longest 0.355 bullets) will also bulge the cartridge case amidships. This may become a huge but random issue for you (aka "pull your hair out" type) when using mixed range brass, because not all brass is dimensioned the same on the inside where the bullet sits.

So right when you enter the batter's box (so to speak), you may already have 2 strikes against you. I want to encourage you, but it looks like you've placed several obstacles in your own path which only you can control. So just realize that your results may be different from what we tell you to expect.


Hope this helps.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 11:03:16 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline obsidianghost

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 12:59:24 AM »
Thank you for your replies.

I am not invested in these 147gn bullets, I got 1500 of them free.  This was a, can I make this work, kind of thing.   I have no problem walking away from them if it won't work for me.  I can come back to 9mm later on when I have more experience if need be.  9mm was never my primary purpose to starting reloading just seemed like a convenient starting place.  My press came setup for it and with a bunch of free components.   I normally shoot 124gn FMJ so I don't care about the 147s. My primary plan is to reload 45 colt for cowboy action.  I have a lot of support from some old timers in my club.

What would be a good bullet to start with for reloading for my CZ?  There are so many choices.

Offline Erief0g

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 04:39:03 AM »
I've had stellar accuracy with rocky mountain reloading (RMR)  124gr tcfp matchwinner bullets. 


I then purchased a considerable amount of the RMR 124 gr JHP MPR bullets and came to realize that due to their ogive (short and fat) that for then to work on my shadow 2 or my xds Springfield they would need seated shorter than 1.055. I delegated these pills for use in my sp01 and HK VP9 at 1.080 and moved over to precision delta 124 gr JHP.


The precision delta looks very promising but as of yet I've not loaded them. I did notice in seeing up the press that my Dillon die bullet seating station doesn't fit the tall pointy design as well as it could and I'm currently working on an alternative.


From what others have said this is a Dillon die issue and other dies don't seem to have the issue.
Here to learn,and help if I can.
CZ SP01 Tactical decocker and  black and blue shadow 2. Wifes only CZ is her scorpion.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 06:47:11 AM »
I am not invested in these 147gn bullets, I got 1500 of them free.  This was a, can I make this work, kind of thing.   I have no problem walking away from them if it won't work for me.  I can come back to 9mm later on when I have more experience if need be.  9mm was never my primary purpose to starting reloading just seemed like a convenient starting place.  My press came setup for it and with a bunch of free components.   I normally shoot 124gn FMJ so I don't care about the 147s. My primary plan is to reload 45 colt for cowboy action.  I have a lot of support from some old timers in my club.

What would be a good bullet to start with for reloading for my CZ?  There are so many choices.

First Idea
I don't know that they will or won't work. First you'd need to sand off .002" off the shank diameter so that the bullet can enter the freebore of the chamber. Then you'd need to verify that all the brands of brass you are loading can accept a 147gr bullet.

147gr is typically a long bullet. You are already having to work with a shorter Max OAL (not to be longer than) due to the CZ chamber design. But the longer bullet then seats deeper into the case forcing you to consider a Min OAL (not to be shorter than). If the difference between those 2 numbers is very small, then you're in trouble.

Also consider that novice reloaders typically have not gotten their press arm "calibrated", and so their OALs typically have a wide variation in length. So if your difference between Max and Min OAL is (say) 0.010", but your OALs vary by 0.015" you're already in trouble. In that case it would be mathematically possible to load that brand of bullet, but your arm just may not be "up to it".

So there's a lot of pitfalls.

Second Idea
You've got a 650, but using Lee dies.  So here we need to ask which Lee set, the 3-dies set or 4 ?? And is the 4th die an FCD or a standard Taper Crimp die ??

The last set of Lee dies I saw did not have an anvil that centered the bullet upon seating. (That's a comment, not a criticism.) So my bullet recommendations center around rounded ogive bullets:
• Berry Mfg 124gr RN Hollow Base (if you only want to buy 100-250).
• Zero (brand) 124gr JHP if you want to buy 500.
• Or, Precision Delta 124gr RN (FMJ) if you care to order 2000.

Those will all seat correctly and fly straight.

Third Idea
OAL is a function of many things... your arm, the brand of brass, the bullet, etc. Consider using a case lube of some description to cut your OAL variations whatever the cause. With a case feeder Hornady OneShot, or Dillon Case Lube, or make your own from lanolin and alcohol.


I have a lot of support from some old timers in my club.

Please bounce my ideas off your pals, but remember that if they don't load 9x19 Luger for a CZ, a Springfield striker gun, or some of the older Berettas, then they have never experienced what we are talking about. Common 9's like Ruger, S&W, Kimber simply don't require the finesse we're discussing.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 07:24:12 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 07:29:04 AM »
The Precision Delta looks very promising but as of yet I've not loaded them. I did notice in seeing up the press that my Dillon die bullet seating station doesn't fit the tall pointy design as well as it could and I'm currently working on an alternative. From what others have said this is a Dillon die issue and other dies don't seem to have the issue.

Dillon dies have exchangeable seating anvils, but they don't really have a good solution for the conical shape of PD JHP, Hornady XTP & HAP, and other conicals. So I make those in my shop.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

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Offline obsidianghost

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 01:08:27 PM »
I'm going to move on from the 147gn bullets, even if I had no other issues the useable OAL window looks like it will be small and like Wobbly said my process and arm are not calibrated yet.

I'm not sure which Lee die set I have or which crimp die is in the press, I have a few and they are hard to tell apart.  I will have to check after work. I do have a set of Dillon 9mm dies if they work better.

Thank you for the bullet recommendations I will order some and make this easier on myself.

I do now have some once fired brass separated by head stamp. Only 2 brands to worry about, no more range mix. I will get some case lube too. I dislike that people say you don't need it but forget to tell you that it makes things easier.

My cowboy reloading friends are encyclopedias covering flintlock to black powder to old military cartridges, 45acp and all things revolver and cowboy,  but not CZ. 

Thanks everyone for your help, I think I'm getting on the right track now.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 06:32:24 AM »
Mr Ghost -

• It took me many years, and about 6 different brands of dies before I realized that Dillon presses simply work better with Dillon dies. If you have them, then I would tell you.... by all means use them. Uses these dies with the RN seating anvil for the bullets I recommended. Are they early model with the screw in seating anvil, or the newest versions with the spring loaded de-capping pin ?

If you are not sure of the die change, then I urge you to buy another Tool Head to place the Dillon dies in. That way you can go back and forth between die sets until you prove the swap is worth it. See the Jofer USA web site for a new tool head.

• Mind you I said you'd be better off to begin with plated or jacketed bullets. There may be a time within the next 6-12 months where you can go back with new knowledge and experience, and can successfully load these 147gr bullets. So don't throw them out !

• The bullets I recommended should seat successfully into any brand of brass... and long as they are NOT steel, brass-plated steel, or aluminum. By going to 124gr you've removed an entire road block in your pathway.

• Yes, sir. Lubrication is the easiest way for a novice to reduce their OAL variations. And that includes lubricating the press too !

• One of THE most useful 650 upgrades is the Spent Primer disposal tube. If you don't have one already, nothing else you can do will add more to your health or general work place cleanliness. LIKE THIS

Hope this helps.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Ask me about used Dillon reloading equipment.

Offline obsidianghost

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 03:14:02 PM »
My Dillon dies are the newer style, and I have a new tool head I can use.  I'd ordered it for a 45 colt setup.

I ordered the Berry's bullets you recommended.

I'm a bit of a hoarder, I rarely get rid of stuff if it might be useful later. If only I could throw out the broken appliances I might be able to fix, but never will.

Spent primer is one of the upgrades I don't already have, I'll order one. I can see it will be helpful, thank you.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 07:54:13 PM »
My Dillon dies are the newer style, and I have a new tool head I can use.
Oh, you'll love those. The only catch is that you move the entire seating die up and down to set your OAL. So I suggest you find some fat o-rings to put between the Tool Head and the die's Lock Ring. In this way the die can be adjusted by hand, but still won't loose adjustment between settings.

I ordered the Berry's bullets you recommended.
Berry bullets are best had from one of their distributors: TJ Conevera, Powder Valley, or Graf & Sons. Berry Mfg does a good job, but their distributors can discount them.

Spent primer is one of the upgrades I don't already have, I'll order one. I can see it will be helpful, thank you.
Run that tube into an empty gallon milk jug or a 5 qt oil can and collect those primers. Some recycling places will accept them with your split-out brass for recycling.


Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 10:13:35 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline noylj

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2019, 01:37:38 AM »
You determine COL using a couple of inert dummy rounds BEFORE you ever start to actually load a round. Every bullet from a different manufacturer, even of the same weight, will have a slightly different optimum COL and nobody can tell you what that COL will be—other than a probably range.
COL Note:
Per Ramshot (and all other reloading suppliers):
“SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as:
1) magazine/cylinder length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile, and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load."

Your COL (OAL) is determined by your barrel and your gun and your magazine. What worked in a pressure barrel or the manufacturer's recommendation or in my gun may have little to do with what will work in your gun.
Load a couple of dummy rounds (no powder and no primer) to the max. COL (OAL) and see if it fits your magazine, feeds in your gun, and chambers in your barrel.
Seat the bullet slightly deeper until you achieve all three of these goals. This is the COL (OAL) for you in your gun with that make of bullet.

Offline obsidianghost

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2019, 06:08:26 PM »
Update
Wobbly Thank You! Your advise has been so helpful. I think I've just about got the hang of it now.

Quote
Oh, you'll love those. The only catch is that you move the entire seating die up and down to set your OAL. So I suggest you find some fat o-rings to put between the Tool Head and the die's Lock Ring. In this way the die can be adjusted by hand, but still won't loose adjustment between settings.

I setup on a new tool head with my Dillon dies using my Dillon manual, they were very easy to setup.  I had an o-ring locking ring and used it for the seating die, it made it very easy to adjust OAL.

I have tried to take in all of your advise and reread the stickies.  Here is what I have come up with:

Berry's 124 HB RN
VV N320, 3.4gn starting load per VV load data for this exact bullet.
Federal #100 primers
Once Fired Speer nickle brass, with hornady one shot case lube

OAL min: 1.142" per VV load data
OAL max: 1.170" based on my calculations from Wobbly's "How to Determine Max OAL for a CZ Pistol" stickie. (I made up 8 testers and got between 1.184" - 1.190" so I went with 1.170")

Chosen OAL: 1.156" (Most rounds are between 1.155" - 1.157"  all with in 1.153" - 1.159")

I made up 111 pulled and broke down 11 at random to verify everything. I want to build up my confidence so I am going to shoot them and enjoy them.  I then plan to start working up small batches at different powder amounts to find the load that works the best for me.  Please let me know if I have made any glaring mistakes. Thank you all once again.


Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Help with OAL request
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2019, 12:24:12 PM »
Skimming through this, it looks like you are on your way now!  I started with Berry's and had good results.  If you are going for max accuracy, you may want to try a few other brands as well - eventually.

Regarding OAL - I wasn't sure about this "calibrated arm" thing - but yes, I found it took a while to get consistent.  ALSO - different brass (headstamp) will affect OAL!

I will agree with others, I'm very glad I didn't start off with lead bullets due to issues I had when I did start to play with them.  The Stickies were great to help me out (and I still use for reference).

When reloading:
 - stay focused - avoid distractions.
 - take NOTES!!!!  I've referenced mine a lot.
 - one change at a time!
 - ample testing is a must (shoot a lot and have fun)!!

Dan
Some trust in chassis, Some in Horsepower, But we trust in the Lord our God.

If it goes "boom" or "vroom" I'm intersted.