Author Topic: Striker Fire for CC  (Read 5651 times)

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Offline Skookum

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2020, 11:16:22 PM »
Both of those videos are a great examples of careless firearm handling and irresponsibility.

So we agree...  careless firearm handling and irresponsibility is equal to stupidity.
In most cases stupidity and that alone is responsible for an ND.  However, inherent human nature sometimes plays a role, as studied and empirically documented; e.g.:

https://www.forcescience.org/2004/12/can-you-really-prevent-unintentional-discharges/

This is why a firearm with an affirmative external safety is safer than one without.  Given the empirical evidence the manufacture, sale, purchase, and use of safetiless firearms is fraught with potential liability.
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Offline seebee62

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2020, 11:25:46 PM »

These videos are great example of people's stupidity.  :o


People's stupidity is one reason why the affirmative external safety was invented.  It appears in both videos that such a safety, if used, would have prevented the ND and resulting wounding.  This is true of the first video, too.

In this case the ND of a safetiless Glock resulted in a fatality and a nonfatal wounding:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-boy-dies-after-father-gun-discharges-play-wrestling


This is a very sad and unfortunate occurrence but when I researched this incident further the father had the gun tucked in the small of his back no holster is mentioned.
I firmly believe the trigger was pulled in some manner in this situation. 
Whether is was the father attempting to keep it from falling out of the back of his pants or the child possibly hitting the trigger as it fell out of the father’s pants.

One news article on the incident mentioned that:
“In Indiana, a person can be charged with felony criminal recklessness if he or she "recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally performs an act that creates a substantial risk of bodily injury to another person" while armed with a deadly weapon”

The manual safety is not a license to be careless.

If a person chooses to carry a firearm that person should exercise responsibility in keep that weapon safely concealed and retained on their person.

If a person wants or needs to perform a act where the gun could be dislodged from their person the gun should be safely stowed away. Any gun safety or no safety.

Elevator guy: Don’t take your gun out unless you intend to use it.

FBI guy: Don’t do back flips while carrying.

Father wrestling with child: Remove your firearm and stow it before playing with the kids.










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Offline armoredman

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2020, 01:10:17 AM »
May I interject?
One, the Glock system IS precharged before firing, otherwise there would never be a beed to press the trigger to disasseble. The striker is partially cocked until the trigger cocks it fully and releases it, see  attached video. That is explained about the 1.58 minute mark.



Second, i hated stroker fire guns from the get go, listened to every horror story, saw every video...and then the Dept said congrats - you have to carry a Glock! So, I learned. The one single BIGGEST reason I saw for a Glock or any other striker fired pistol to negligently discharge in the holster was an obstruction in the trigger guard, nothing else. One was in a vehicle because a soft old leather rig got so "floppy" that part of the holster itself inserted into the trigger guard and fired the weapon while reholstering. The takeaway is clear - the fast one handed no-look reholstering taught in many classes are NOT what you need with striker fired pistol and any holster that might have caught part of your covering garment while reholstering. Even if carrying openly with no covering garment - look anyway. If you can't take your eyes off something long enough to look, you might need to keep that sidearm at the low ready, just in case. Also, open trigger guard rigs are NOT good for striker fired pistols. Bad juju as the old saying goes.
Here is my EDC, a CZ P-10C, (first gen with updated slide), in a High Noon Stingray OWB rig.



When unholstering, the standard training I received all these years of "booger hook off the bang switch until go time" keeps me from a premature ejection...but reholstering, I take my time and make sure any covering garment, (I don't carry openly unless in uniform), is clear before sliding the weapon in to the holster. Period. There is no other safe way to do this, no matter the sidearm - a P-01 could have the exact same thing happen if an object was in the way, and the carrier was paying zero attention. Admittedly, the person involved would have to be practically catatonic to NOT notice there was a problem before the sidearm discharged, but theoretically any firearm without a positive manual safety in the on position could have exactly this type of negligent discharge.
Now, doe this mean I think everyone should carry a striker fired pistol and that anyone who doesn't is somehow undertrained? hardly - I carried hammer fired for decades, and would do so again in a heartbeat. I just found my perfect fit with the P-10 series pistols, (to nobodys greater shock than me - even CZ-USA was surprised), and I take the time needed to be completely safe.
Yes, I do carry IWB occasionally, in a High Noon Close Encounter, (made for a P-09, actually fits the P-10C perfectly), and I follow the same drill - watch what I am doing and clear all covering garments away completely. I take longer getting my pants up in a public restroom, but I don't leave a smoking toilet behind. Unless it's Taco Bell, then all bets are off...

Offline Double Tap

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2020, 08:57:00 AM »
May I interject?
One, the Glock system IS precharged before firing, otherwise there would never be a beed to press the trigger to disasseble. The striker is partially cocked until the trigger cocks it fully and releases it, see  attached video. That is explained about the 1.58 minute mark.



Second, i hated stroker fire guns from the get go, listened to every horror story, saw every video...and then the Dept said congrats - you have to carry a Glock! So, I learned. The one single BIGGEST reason I saw for a Glock or any other striker fired pistol to negligently discharge in the holster was an obstruction in the trigger guard, nothing else. One was in a vehicle because a soft old leather rig got so "floppy" that part of the holster itself inserted into the trigger guard and fired the weapon while reholstering. The takeaway is clear - the fast one handed no-look reholstering taught in many classes are NOT what you need with striker fired pistol and any holster that might have caught part of your covering garment while reholstering. Even if carrying openly with no covering garment - look anyway. If you can't take your eyes off something long enough to look, you might need to keep that sidearm at the low ready, just in case. Also, open trigger guard rigs are NOT good for striker fired pistols. Bad juju as the old saying goes.
Here is my EDC, a CZ P-10C, (first gen with updated slide), in a High Noon Stingray OWB rig.



When unholstering, the standard training I received all these years of "booger hook off the bang switch until go time" keeps me from a premature ejection...but reholstering, I take my time and make sure any covering garment, (I don't carry openly unless in uniform), is clear before sliding the weapon in to the holster. Period. There is no other safe way to do this, no matter the sidearm - a P-01 could have the exact same thing happen if an object was in the way, and the carrier was paying zero attention. Admittedly, the person involved would have to be practically catatonic to NOT notice there was a problem before the sidearm discharged, but theoretically any firearm without a positive manual safety in the on position could have exactly this type of negligent discharge.
Now, doe this mean I think everyone should carry a striker fired pistol and that anyone who doesn't is somehow undertrained? hardly - I carried hammer fired for decades, and would do so again in a heartbeat. I just found my perfect fit with the P-10 series pistols, (to nobodys greater shock than me - even CZ-USA was surprised), and I take the time needed to be completely safe.
Yes, I do carry IWB occasionally, in a High Noon Close Encounter, (made for a P-09, actually fits the P-10C perfectly), and I follow the same drill - watch what I am doing and clear all covering garments away completely. I take longer getting my pants up in a public restroom, but I don't leave a smoking toilet behind. Unless it's Taco Bell, then all bets are off...
BRAVO thank you for the cogent and intelligent answer

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Offline Conlin2

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2020, 09:13:43 AM »
I carry both striker and DA/SA the holster is key for safely carrying it so always get a holster that is specific to your model and as always practice your draw.
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Offline jurek

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2020, 11:00:56 AM »
Very well said, armoredman !

Offline KnightSchneider

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2020, 08:38:45 PM »
I've carried concealed striker fired guns for about 10 years now.

I use high quality holsters, high quality belts, and good quality guns properly maintained.  I don't modify my carry guns beyond replacing sights.

I also am extremely aware of re-holstering; never a reason to be first back in the holster.
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Offline Porcupine

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2020, 08:31:23 AM »
For pocket carry, you may want to consider the P365 with safety, or P938. They're both highly concealable and great shooters.

When I can dress with an untucked shirt, I'll carry a P 07. While I have, and really like a Rami, it's too big for pocket carry but not small enough to be significantly easier to conceal than the P 07.

Offline John A.

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2020, 09:58:27 AM »
For pocket carry, you may want to consider the P365 with safety, or P938. They're both highly concealable and great shooters.

When I can dress with an untucked shirt, I'll carry a P 07. While I have, and really like a Rami, it's too big for pocket carry but not small enough to be significantly easier to conceal than the P 07.

I recently put a p365 in layaway.  Unfortunately, it's not one of the newer thumb safety models, which I honestly would have preferred.

But I contacted sig and they said they were considering a program to let current owners send the pistols in for the upgrade.  Of course, there was no price or firm commitment on their part, but the answer that I got from them was they have already been considering it.

At minimum, would need the newer style grip frame and purchase the safety lever and spring and detent.  But if they ultimately do start that program, I'm going to be onboard with it.

Until then, I will be carrying in an alien gear tuck IWB with kydex cover which has always served me well in the meantime because at the end of the day, if for no other reason than how I want it, I prefer a trigger safety and am not very comfortable without it.
I used to think politicians made stupid gun laws because they were stupid.  Now, I know they do it as ATTRITION.

Offline Vinny

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2020, 10:56:11 AM »
This is an interesting thread; with many valid points of view and good ideas.

I prefer DA/SA but those choices in a 'pocket-carry' size are very slim indeed.

When I think of carry safety, I also have to think about why I'm carrying in the first place. Of course, I have to think of personal safety first, but if I can't place rounds quickly on moment of BG I might as well not carry it .

So I started some measured time/score comparisons of my 4 pocket pistols placing 5 rounds fast on an IDPA target at 20 feet from low-ready. Measuring IDPA style taking time + points down.

SIG P290rs - DAO trigger long firm pull and lonnnggg reset. Upgraded with X-Ray-3 sights that I like. Shoots accurately but slowest of the bunch due to awkward trigger.

S&W CS9 - Very reliable 3rd Gen DA/SA about as large as I can reasonably pocket carry in a Mika pocket holster. Not many sight upgrades available but I have installed a low-mount Novak FO front. Surprisingly quick and accurate but largest of the bunch.

SA Hellcat OSP - Striker-fired with the 'U' shape rear. Although gun has been 100% reliable through 1000 rounds, I'm not liking the 'U' notch rear sight at all and I'm dropping too many points outside the -0 circle. Probably it's just me.

SIG P365 - Striker-fired with the X-Ray-3 sights I like; and not only the fastest of the bunch, most accurate too. I'm able to routinely break 5 shots in under 2 seconds with 3-4 Alpha's, and 1-2 close one-down Charlie's.  Not great, but it would probably get the job done in a pinch.

Of course, if I slow down I can put them all in a 2" circle, but I wanted to test the limits of each under time pressure.

I've been carrying the DAO SIG290rs thinking it was the 'safest' for pocket; but after timed test comparisons I've had to re-think carrying a striker.

I decided to ditch the SIG 290rs and Hellcat, and upgrade from soft pocket holsters to better hard-case Kydex pocket holsters with thumb-push release (Alabama and Vedder) for my SIG P365's (one of which will get an extra slide with a Romeo Zero milled. And keep the S&W CS-9 DA/SA as a good viable backup.

Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.   



« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 11:16:48 AM by Vinny »
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Offline Tanners Owner

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2020, 11:12:37 AM »
Vinny- good write up and assessments. While I recently got a SIG 365, I haven’t taken it to the range enough- too much travel for work and bad weather getting in the way :)

That said, my sense is you are dead on right- at least for me. I had a P250, and was amazed at the smoothness of the trigger, but found I shot my revolvers faster, so it went.  Suspect its similar to your 290.
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Offline Porcupine

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2020, 02:04:22 PM »
This is an interesting thread; with many valid points of view and good ideas.

I prefer DA/SA but those choices in a 'pocket-carry' size are very slim indeed.

When I think of carry safety, I also have to think about why I'm carrying in the first place. Of course, I have to think of personal safety first, but if I can't place rounds quickly on moment of BG I might as well not carry it .

So I started some measured time/score comparisons of my 4 pocket pistols placing 5 rounds fast on an IDPA target at 20 feet from low-ready. Measuring IDPA style taking time + points down.

SIG P290rs - DAO trigger long firm pull and lonnnggg reset. Upgraded with X-Ray-3 sights that I like. Shoots accurately but slowest of the bunch due to awkward trigger.

S&W CS9 - Very reliable 3rd Gen DA/SA about as large as I can reasonably pocket carry in a Mika pocket holster. Not many sight upgrades available but I have installed a low-mount Novak FO front. Surprisingly quick and accurate but largest of the bunch.

SA Hellcat OSP - Striker-fired with the 'U' shape rear. Although gun has been 100% reliable through 1000 rounds, I'm not liking the 'U' notch rear sight at all and I'm dropping too many points outside the -0 circle. Probably it's just me.

SIG P365 - Striker-fired with the X-Ray-3 sights I like; and not only the fastest of the bunch, most accurate too. I'm able to routinely break 5 shots in under 2 seconds with 3-4 Alpha's, and 1-2 close one-down Charlie's.  Not great, but it would probably get the job done in a pinch.

Of course, if I slow down I can put them all in a 2" circle, but I wanted to test the limits of each under time pressure.

I've been carrying the DAO SIG290rs thinking it was the 'safest' for pocket; but after timed test comparisons I've had to re-think carrying a striker.

I decided to ditch the SIG 290rs and Hellcat, and upgrade from soft pocket holsters to better hard-case Kydex pocket holsters with thumb-push release (Alabama and Vedder) for my SIG P365's (one of which will get an extra slide with a Romeo Zero milled. And keep the S&W CS-9 DA/SA as a good viable backup.

Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.   

FWIW-All 365s are set up to accept the safety. You can see the lines from the mold on the frame if you look closely.

The chassis is ready to have the 3 small parts dropped in.

Currently parts are scarce, but I plan to get them when they become more available.

Here is one potential source:

http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/

Offline Vinny

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2020, 06:42:24 PM »

Similar to other's suggestions in this thread... If Striker works best for your purposes....upgrading holster and regular practice holstering (and re-holster) safely before placing both in my pocket.   

FWIW-All 365s are set up to accept the safety. You can see the lines from the mold on the frame if you look closely.

The chassis is ready to have the 3 small parts dropped in.

Currently parts are scarce, but I plan to get them when they become more available.

Here is one potential source:

http://www.abprototype.com/sig-p365-manual-safety-lever-assembly/
Porcupine,
Yes, for some, adding a Manual Safety will be the answer.
Thanks for posting the link.

I had seen this on SIG-Talk. Both Alabama Holster, Vedder and others will make a Kydex pocket holster to accommodate the manual safety. I would certainly consider it IF I could flick OFF the safety after holstering like I do on my S&W CS9 with decocker/safety.  But I don't think the safety is accessible in this type of holster?
And I just don't want the extra step of unlocking the safety upon draw on ANY of my SD pistols. But I understand those that do.

Anyhow, as you can see in images below the hard-shell Vedder 'Pocket Locker' completely covers the trigger guard and I Holster it before putting the holster with secured pistol into my pocket.  Ditto after firing I remove the holster with support hand and safely re-holster before putting into my pocket again.   YMMV
BTW...The thumb release works great and pistol draws quickly from retention leaving holster behind!



« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 06:48:58 PM by Vinny »
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Offline Porcupine

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2020, 10:32:23 PM »
^^That's pretty slick. I might try something like that.

I carry mine in a Nemisis, and follow the same practice of holstering outside my pocket.

I'm well conditioned to sweeping off a safety on drawing, as that is how I was trained as a young man.

I unconsciously sweep my striker and decocker guns if I'm not mindful to avoid it. Fortunately the decockers lower profile and longer stroke prevent accidentally decocking the weapon.

Offline norcalAF

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Re: Striker Fire for CC
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2020, 11:26:39 PM »
   I'm old-school when I use a IWB holster for a small striker fired pistol I remove the holster, insert the pistol and then place the holster back in my waistband.
Old-school? I would call that prudent.