10mm Auto Baseline Powder Testing w/ Plated RNFP

[Wobbly]

With all the excitement around 10mm Auto and CZ's announcement that they will be soon releasing a gun for the US market, plus the existing quantity of Dan Wesson firearms already out there in 10mm, I thought it prudent to get some baseline testing done.

So this thread will not be our traditional powder testing thread with multiple types of bullets over one type of powder. This will be the reverse. A shoot-out (no pun intended) using a single, middle weight bullet over numerous powders. The bullet we'll be using is the Rocky Mountain Reloading (RMR) 165gr plated RNFP. (My thinking here is that this will hopefully be analogous to using middle-weight 124gr in 9mm. Time and testing will tell us if this assumption is correct.) And of course we'll be using a single type of brass and a single brand of primer to try and bring some type of standardization to the test results. All the load suggestions are taken from the Lyman #49 reloading manual. In fact if you look, you'll see I simply went straight down their listed powders.



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   W231  (6.3-7.1gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1182 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
6.4gr            1067              19
6.7               1113              13
7.0               1161              17

Notes
• Meters great, just like 231 always does
• Snappy, but with good accuracy
• Preferable to WSF



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Win WSF  (6.9-7.7gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1182 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
7.0gr            1106              19
7.3               1148              23
7.6               1194              45

Notes
• Meters great, just like WSF always does
• Note that we are using more weight than 231, but achieving identical Max Vel
• Not an impressive powder in 10mm
• No sense of accuracy over the range

[Wobbly]

165gr Testing Continued

Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   VV N340 (6.5-7.3gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1172 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
6.6gr         Lost
6.9            1102               1
7.1            Lost

Notes
• Meters very nicely
• Same results are expected as WSF
• Look at that SD will you ? We've seen that before with this brand.



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Hodgdon HS-6  (9.3-10.4gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1235 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
9.0gr         1119              16
9.4            1180              26
9.8            1215              19
10.2          1257              17

Notes
• Meters very nicely
• Fairly dense powder
• Good case fill due to higher weights
• HS-6 was one of the better accuracy powders in 9mm, but can be dirty low down
• Respectable accuracy
• 9.0gr might be a little low !!

[Wobbly]

So I did the load testing today, and it was not a complete success, but it was educational. Here's some things I made note of...

• My setup was on my home range. I was shooting across a ProChrono DLX, set so I could aim at a 6" steel that was 35 feet away. Everything was slow fired, with the heel of the gun (magazine) on a shooting pad. "Accuracy" was judged by the ability to hit the 6" steel consistently when using the gun rest and same point of aim.

• Over 90 shots fired, all with the same case, primer and bullet.

• I'm not perfect !    Five minutes into the test, I got up to walk to the chrono and turned the entire table over. This brilliant move pitched the N340 test cartridges all over the ground. I hardly ever cuss, but that resulted in a few harsh words.

• N340 was one of the tests I was really hoping to complete. Thankfully, I had some of the cartridges stuck together with a masking tape label, but that resulted in a greatly reduced sample lot. The shots I got were all accurate hits, but I gotta do that again. I'm going to load more and "re-do".

• HS-6 came through with accuracy in every load range, but got to be uncomfortable at the highest. The 9.0 was comfortable and accurate, but you'd need to re-spring your gun.

• I started out thinking 165gr bullets were "middle of the road", but I have changed my mind. Most everyone I consulted was shooting 180gr and I now understand why. 165gr will work your wrist to death if you shoot it a lot. I finished with some 180gr and even though they were equivalent PF, they were much more comfortable.

• Numerous occasions with the slide not going into battery from 'slide lock'. Need to work on the OAL.

Long day and lots of shooting...




 

[NMShooter]

Thanks for the write up Wobbly. I dropped a box of 308 WIN test cartridges one time, had pack up go home pull the bullets and start over. Now I write the charge weight and powder (if I have mixed powders in the same box) on the case with a sharpie. A little more time consuming but it has saved me scrapping a test once or twice.
I like AA#7 with 150 - 165 grain bullets also. When it comes to heavier bullets, 180 to 220, I like Blue Dot or AA#9.  I've also used Power Pistol and Longshot. I'll be looking forward to your data with N340. I've never used it due to spotty availability.  I'm using a Sprinco recoil system on two of my 10s, a 2011 and a 1911, and have been really happy with them. Rarely crunch cases unless its a really light load.

[Wobbly]

165gr Testing Continued

Second try today with the re-made N340 and some new ones... Silhouette & No9.

Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   VV N340  (6.5-7.3gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1172 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
6.6gr         1063              17
6.9            1110               8
7.2            1164               8

Notes
• Meters very nicely
• Look at that SD will you ? We've seen that before with this brand.
• Look at the incremental steps too



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Ramshot Silohuette  (7.9-9.1gr from Ramshot website)
Max Velocity:  1285 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
7.9gr         1124              28
8.3            1187              16
8.7            1236              19

Notes
• Meters really well
• Very accurate shooting



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  40F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Accurate No.9  (13.5-15.0gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1318 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
13.5gr       1207              24
14.0          1236              26
14.5          1269              18
15.0          1309              35

Notes
• Meters really well
• Took a huge volume of powder, as is typical of ball powders
• Very accurate shooting

I think these loads dimpled my steels !


Shot up the ammo that spilled last time....



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    RMR 165gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  50F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   AA No.7  (10.3-11.5gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1174 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
10.4gr       1092              14
10.8          1138              18
11.2          1193              16

Notes
• Super-fine granules that meters very nicely
• Best case filling. Higher loads were compressed.
• A perennial favorite with 10mm fans
• Very accurate
• Cleanest shooting, cases looked "new"
• Was expecting better SD numbers based on metering, but these are still better than most

[Wobbly]

180gr Ammo Testing

Back at it again today before the rain starts....

Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    Berry 180gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  50F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Alliant BE-86  (7.4-8.2gr from Alliant website)
Max Velocity:  1250 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
7.4gr       1121              13
7.7          1160              15
8.0          1177               7

Notes
• Super-fine granules that meters very nicely
• Good case filling
• Lowest volume powder used in this test
• Very accurate
• Excellent SD numbers



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    Berry 180gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  50F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Hodgdon CFE Pistol  (6.7-7.6gr from Hodgdon web site)
Max Velocity:  1200 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
6.8gr       1056               19
7.1          1080               7
7.4          1101               12

Notes
• Good case filling
• Lowest volume powder used in this test
• Had trouble with accuracy
• Excellent SD numbers
• Abrupt recoil, even at low velocities



Equipment
Caliber:    10mmAuto
Bullets:    Berry 180gr plated RNFP
Brass:      StarLine (new)
Primer:    Winchester Large Pistol WLP
OAL:        1.250"
Pistol:      Dan Wesson 10mm Pointman (5" 1911)
Qty:        8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  50F and highly overcast
Chrono:   ProChrono DLX

Powder:   Alliant Blue Dot  (9.4-10.4gr from Lyman #49)
Max Velocity:  1220 fps

Load      Avg Vel           SD
9.4gr        1132              22
9.7           1167              14
10.0         1179              15

Notes
• Biggest ball size I've ever seen. Jammed my Dillon PM !
• Good case filling
• Very abrupt recoil
• Not very accurate
• Not impressed at all, especially considering all the hoopla

[Wobbly]

So the results are all in and my conclusions are...

• Yes to 180gr, especially if you intend to shoot more than 50 rounds.

• I would have to say that I'd choose BE-86 if I intended to load 10mm all the time. It's frugal to load, it meters great, it offers power, and it has very good accuracy. Hadn't heard that said, I simply had some on hand and decided to try it. Good thing though.

• For all the people loading 10mm with Blue Dot... you can do better. Much better. The granules of Blue Dot are the size of BB's. One got caught (cut in half ?) in my powder measure and it didn't work right for several hours. For all that, performance an SD were much better than expected... but still average.

• CFE Pistol lackluster fallout. It's abruptness just made it hard to get any accuracy. And remember, I'm sitting at a desk with the gun on a padded support.

• I would love to work up a load with Sport Pistol for 180gr. That might end up with a very narrow load range (like 0.4gr), but it could be a fun, low-recoil load.

 

[skin]

 Just curious about primer selection.   I currently use fed large pistol, any benefit on using winchester lp primers? The sierra manual has switched also.

[Sunkist]

Thank you for a well executed load analysis. It did help convince me that I can stay with my 40's and not give up much velocity. I think my old wrists will appreciate the decision. I run 40 S&W in two 75b's (a SAO and a DA/SA), a Walther PPQ 4" and a Ruger SR40c. I started my 40S&W days with a 4006, a P229 and P239. My 180gr loads run from about 980 fps and 1013 fps and I feel well served by that loading. I just wish Ruger would chamber the SR 1911 in .40. I had been drooling over the SR 1911 10mm but I think I'm over that now. Thanks again for the good work.

[Rock-it3]

165gr Testing Continued

Second try today with the re-made N340 and some new ones... Silhouette & No9.

Hi Wobbly, I don't have a comment on your testing, but I do notice what I think is a typo in your information in 2 places on this post. All three load ranges (VV N340, silhouette, and Accurate No. 9)  show the same range of 6.5 to 7.3 grains, while your load data only agrees for the N340. You may have copied and pasted the N340 info, then missed changing it to reflect the range for the actual powder used?

[Wobbly]

Hi Wobbly, I don't have a comment on your testing, but I do notice what I think is a typo in your information in 2 places on this post. All three load ranges (VV N340, silhouette, and Accurate No. 9)  show the same range of 6.5 to 7.3 grains, while your load data only agrees for the N340. You may have copied and pasted the N340 info, then missed changing it to reflect the range for the actual powder used?

Yes, you are correct. Thank you. I got caught up in the Cut-N-Paste. It's now, hopefully, corrected.

This 'test' turned out to be far more complicated than ever imagined. Thought the 165gr would nail it very quickly and it didn't. I've destroyed or simply lost a lot of good brass. Turned over the tray with nearly 50 rounds, all rendered useless. Wasted time and money on testing a few powders that shouldn't be in the mix.

It all got way out of hand. This has not been fun.   

[Rock-it3]

Hi Wobbly, I don't have a comment on your testing, but I do notice what I think is a typo in your information in 2 places on this post. All three load ranges (VV N340, silhouette, and Accurate No. 9)  show the same range of 6.5 to 7.3 grains, while your load data only agrees for the N340. You may have copied and pasted the N340 info, then missed changing it to reflect the range for the actual powder used?

Yes, you are correct. Thank you. I got caught up in the Cut-N-Paste. It's now, hopefully, corrected.

This 'test' turned out to be far more complicated than ever imagined. Thought the 165gr would nail it very quickly and it didn't. I've destroyed or simply lost a lot of good brass. Turned over the tray with nearly 50 rounds, all rendered useless. Wasted time and money on testing a few powders that shouldn't be in the mix.

It all got way out of hand. This has not been fun.   

I need to get back into reloading, and this info will help. It has been a few years or moving, and busy-ness, and school, and moving again, so that it has been about 4+ years since I even touched my reloading equipment. I reload 10mm with a 165 grain Berrys over Alliant Power Pistol, which worked well enough for me. I have been liking heavier bullets in my revolvers, though, so maybe I will try some alongside the 165's. You find lighter felt recoil with the heavier bullet?

[Wobbly]

Just curious about primer selection.  I currently use Fed large pistol, any benefit on using Winchester lp primers?

I'm simply using Winchester because that's what I had on hand in volume. If you use Federal now, then I'd stay there. I believe any benefit goes toward the Federal. Federal uses a slightly different chemical formulation, which is hotter than their competitors. This combined with their thinner cup make for a great primer.

The Sierra manual has switched also.

You simply don't understand.
When these guys sit down to write a load manual, the VERY first thing they do is go out and solicit samples. Knowing that anything they can't get for free, they'll need to purchase. As a test engineer, I did the same thing.

So when you see pistol testing with only one brand of bullet, or primer, or whatever... It's not because they believe they're better, it's because they got them for free. In return for the "engineering samples", the load manual shows the name brand of the component, and novice reloaders think they too must go out and purchase that exact brand to get those great results. All this free advertising in turn generates follow-on sales for the primer and bullet companies. So it's a quid pro quo that lasts as long as that particular load manual is being sold.

In the case of a very popular manual, like the Lyman, it's understood they'll sell 500,000 copies. In those type cases, Federal, Winchester and Remington don't need to be called at all. Their 38-22-36 Marketing Reps (in 4" stiletto high heels) are waiting in the lobby right now !! And not only do they have a pallet of primers for you, but T-shirts, hats, coffee cups, 4 tickets to the next ball game, all to be discussed over a free steak lunch at the swankest eatery in town... where you will do your best not to ogle too blatantly at their provocatively exposed décolletage, tastefully presented in the latest Victoria's Secret product offering.   

And it probably goes further than that. If the engineer doing all the tests knows he needs 3000 SPP to complete the testing, he might order 20,000 SPP, just so he won't need to re-order in case something goes wrong. Three guesses what happens to the surplus 17,000 primers at the end of the tests.

So any inference that component selections were made based on quality is simply laughable !!

 

[nicky]

That sounds like my doctors office in the morning.

[Gnnut2]

Thank you for posting your 10mm testing results and your insights regarding the office visits. You did a lot of good work that will save folks some time and $$. It may eventually entice me to spend more money since I don't currently own a pistol in 10mm.