Author Topic: Garand Thumb: The Czech's took an AK but made it better. The VZ. 58 (smol) Czech  (Read 6731 times)

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Offline RSR

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Already 400k views...  Vz58s going to continue to be scarce.

Note paracord and duct tape "mag pulls" on his mags.  And he's running a Parashooter Gear Chest Rig.

Looks like he got his modernization parts from the Vz58 USA website.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VSGqRzCfE

Offline vblue42

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Honestly if he were going to do a video on the platform I wished he would have used one that better represented the military configuration but I digress.

Offline MadDuner

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But why not keep it compatible with AK mags?

Offline vblue42

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But why not keep it compatible with AK mags?

Because they wanted a bolt hold open feature. Something the AK should have had in the first place.

Offline briang2ad

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But why not keep it compatible with AK mags?

Cuz they’re Czech and better! 

Once you use the mags you realize how much better they are - not just the BHO feature. 

I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Offline RSR

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I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Lowness of sights is benefit when you're laying prone or shooting out of trench with an enemy shooting back trying to kill you...  Especially, pre-helicopter evac being SOP.

Offline RSR

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But why not keep it compatible with AK mags?

Cuz they’re Czech and better! 

Once you use the mags you realize how much better they are - not just the BHO feature. 

The weight reduction is also HUGE.  Previously covered before -- 5 mags of Vz58 vs AK steel = 2 lbs saving.

Oh, and 30 round AK steel mags run 11-13 oz depending upon the mag.

OEM 30 round VZ58 mags run ~6.5oz.

I threw a Tapco 5.56 Galil 30 rounder on the scale and it's 5.5oz, but a 7.62x39 would be at least a 25% heavier due to bullet dimensions.  So that's 6.9oz, or heavier than OEM for all polymer. 
Online reports for 7.62x39 Tapco AK mags are 7.3 oz.

I threw the cheaper and less durable and lighter 40 round 7.62x39 Bulgarian slabside mag on the scale (it's steel reinforced, flat sided with the bullet images, not waffles) and it comes in at 8.9oz.

And here are some more AK #s:
Mag weights (empty). All mags hold 30 rounds of 7.62x39.
Steel - early "slab sides" (Izhevsk) - 15.25 oz.
Steel - later version w/ ribbed sides (Izhevsk) - 12.25 oz.
Bakelite (Izhevsk) - 8.50 oz.
Bakelite (Tula) - 8.25 oz.
Aluminum (Izhevsk) - 6.75 oz.
Finnish 30rd black plastic - 6.3oz
(from here: http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=139120 )

Offline briang2ad

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I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Lowness of sights is benefit when you're laying prone or shooting out of trench with an enemy shooting back trying to kill you...  Especially, pre-helicopter evac being SOP.

A tenth of an inch won’t make a difference In the manner you are referencing. None.  Especially given the 30 rd mags.  The slightly higher sights WOULD make a huge difference in allowing a good cheek weld on a straight stock and would make the rifle 100 percent more shootable.

Offline MeatAxe

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I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Lowness of sights is benefit when you're laying prone or shooting out of trench with an enemy shooting back trying to kill you...  Especially, pre-helicopter evac being SOP.

A tenth of an inch won’t make a difference In the manner you are referencing. None.  Especially given the 30 rd mags.  The slightly higher sights WOULD make a huge difference in allowing a good cheek weld on a straight stock and would make the rifle 100 percent more shootable.


I agree 110% — the extremely low Vz58 iron sights are a real pain in the ass, or, more precisely, a literal pain in the neck.

Fortunately, these days we have improved, robust illuminated optics and mounts that make BUIS largely superfluous.

If you really want easily accessed BUIS, just raise the elevation on the rear sight and raise or get a taller front sight post. I believe AKs and Vz58s share the same front sight post thread pitch. If not, you could find a longer screw with the same threads and fashion your own front sight post. Might have to cut off the top of the typical CSA FSB hood or replace with a standard Vz58 FSB (not hooded).

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

For a time, I fretted over not being able to easily co-witness the BUIS through an optic, but then I got a PA 3x prism with an ACSS reticle on a RS Regulate mount - at that point, the BUIS became irrelevant.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 01:13:07 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Lowness of sights is benefit when you're laying prone or shooting out of trench with an enemy shooting back trying to kill you...  Especially, pre-helicopter evac being SOP.

A tenth of an inch won’t make a difference In the manner you are referencing. None.  Especially given the 30 rd mags.  The slightly higher sights WOULD make a huge difference in allowing a good cheek weld on a straight stock and would make the rifle 100 percent more shootable.

Vz58 sights are approx 1.8" over bore, depending upon your zero.
Most hunting/bolt action rifles are 1.25-1.5" -- and Vz52s are in in this range or maybe lower.
AKs are 1.9-2" over bore -- this is a tenth or two higher, but negligible difference IMO.  And SKSes are around 1.5" IIRC.
AR15 are ~2.6" over bore cowitness, ~2.8" lower 1/3,  ~3.1" w/ the 1.92" mounts that are the current rage, and nearly 3.5" for the 2 1/4" mounts that are also available.

So I *think* we're talking about more than a tenth of an inch.

I think you're talking about dropping to prone while assaulting a fixed enemy, in which case yes, the mag is an issue, but higher sights would have your head even higher.  The ability to rapidly maneuver (your loadout weight has a major impact) is just as important as cover when assaulting, so like all things this weapon was designed as a compromise for the times -- that is, great powers combat, not three gun. 

I was also specifically speaking to prepared fighting positions or through gun ports in APCs where you can have smaller openings due to less sight height over bore.  There have been several WW1 movies lately detailing trench warfare and sniping and counter-sniping with steel plates being used in some instances--the smaller firing port through steel plate, the better in such circumstance (or smaller firing ports through any defensible prepared position).

NEA or whatever company they absorbed a decade or so ago that also made Vz58 upgrade parts had detachable AR sights on a higher plane for both the stock mount and on a railed handguard for sight height more in line w/ ARs. 
IIRC, there was also a Vz58 bullpup iteration that also had fairly high sights over bore. 

Point being, no doubt something can be fabbed for contest shooting, but in actual combat, there's value in keeping your head low.  YMMV.

Offline briang2ad

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I'm just commenting on the design mostly - so the AK has an advantage with irons. 

No, I don't mind going with the ACSS either in a micro or Prism on a RS Mount, but I must be able to use irons, and I can JUST get there with a SIG minimalist stock which is much more robust than the folder (which is NOT bad). 

Offline MeatAxe

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I may start another thread but… I consider the lowness of the sights to be a Detriment to the design.

Lowness of sights is benefit when you're laying prone or shooting out of trench with an enemy shooting back trying to kill you...  Especially, pre-helicopter evac being SOP.

A tenth of an inch won’t make a difference In the manner you are referencing. None.  Especially given the 30 rd mags.  The slightly higher sights WOULD make a huge difference in allowing a good cheek weld on a straight stock and would make the rifle 100 percent more shootable.

Vz58 sights are approx 1.8" over bore, depending upon your zero.
Most hunting/bolt action rifles are 1.25-1.5" -- and Vz52s are in in this range or maybe lower.
AKs are 1.9-2" over bore -- this is a tenth or two higher, but negligible difference IMO.  And SKSes are around 1.5" IIRC.
AR15 are ~2.6" over bore cowitness, ~2.8" lower 1/3,  ~3.1" w/ the 1.92" mounts that are the current rage, and nearly 3.5" for the 2 1/4" mounts that are also available.

So I *think* we're talking about more than a tenth of an inch.

I think you're talking about dropping to prone while assaulting a fixed enemy, in which case yes, the mag is an issue, but higher sights would have your head even higher.  The ability to rapidly maneuver (your loadout weight has a major impact) is just as important as cover when assaulting, so like all things this weapon was designed as a compromise for the times -- that is, great powers combat, not three gun. 

I was also specifically speaking to prepared fighting positions or through gun ports in APCs where you can have smaller openings due to less sight height over bore.  There have been several WW1 movies lately detailing trench warfare and sniping and counter-sniping with steel plates being used in some instances--the smaller firing port through steel plate, the better in such circumstance (or smaller firing ports through any defensible prepared position).

NEA or whatever company they absorbed a decade or so ago that also made Vz58 upgrade parts had detachable AR sights on a higher plane for both the stock mount and on a railed handguard for sight height more in line w/ ARs. 
IIRC, there was also a Vz58 bullpup iteration that also had fairly high sights over bore. 

Point being, no doubt something can be fabbed for contest shooting, but in actual combat, there's value in keeping your head low.  YMMV.


Keeping your head down as low as possible on a rifle (with low sights with a low-slung butt stock) was probably a priority during World War I : static warfare over blasted-open flat terrain where riflemen often engaged in sniper duels from trenches and shell holes at long distances or had to dodge getting raked by emplaced, dialed in heavy machine gun fire in No Man’s Land.

Low slung butt stocks are fine on bolt action rifles where you have to pause between shots to manually cycle rounds, but in semi and full auto they cause pronounced muzzle flip and inaccurate automatic fire. As warfare evolved into mobile blitzkrieg warfare during WWII, soldiers had to maneuver and keep their heads up and on a swivel for closer range combat with full and semi auto fire. The Germans developed the StG 43 / 44 with taller sights and a straight line butt stock, along with a medium caliber rifle round with selective fire out of extended mags to press their technological and tactical advantages in combat.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 10:57:44 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline Laufer

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https://www.gunbroker.com/Guns-Firearms/search?Keywords=vz-58&Sort=13

RSR: VZ-58s might continue to be scarce, at least in various retail stores.

But for those who Don't know about "GB", I posted this link --- only -- to show a fairly typical selection which I often see (on GB), since early 2019 - when I bought my Czechpoint ' nib '.

Do most viewers know that the shorter 20-rd. mags might still be available?
https://www.vz58usa.com/product/vz58-magazine-csa-20-rd/

I posted this because I didn't notice any discussion about them, or that they even Exist.

Sidenote: my Czechpoint was 'nib' in early 2019, now has at least 2,400 rds. in it, Zero issues.
A piece of each little cardboard ammo box is stored in a large labeled  baggy to note the total round count.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:01:35 AM by Laufer »

Offline RSR

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I'm just commenting on the design mostly - so the AK has an advantage with irons. 

No, I don't mind going with the ACSS either in a micro or Prism on a RS Mount, but I must be able to use irons, and I can JUST get there with a SIG minimalist stock which is much more robust than the folder (which is NOT bad).

No, AKs do not necessarily have absolutely higher iron sights.  Iron sight relative height is a function of both the sights and the stock, and stocks have variation...
 
ARs are uniquely different since the buffer tube is fixed position (even if folding) and stocks are always mounted off of it...

Again, I don't think either of the sights you reference will cowitness with OE irons, but other BUIS options exist as I noted if that's something you have to have.

Offline RSR

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Keeping your head down as low as possible on a rifle (with low sights with a low-slung butt stock) was probably a priority during World War I : static warfare over blasted-open flat terrain where riflemen often engaged in sniper duels from trenches and shell holes at long distances or had to dodge getting raked by emplaced, dialed in heavy machine gun fire in No Man’s Land.

Low slung butt stocks are fine on bolt action rifles where you have to pause between shots to manually cycle rounds, but in semi and full auto they cause pronounced muzzle flip and inaccurate automatic fire. As warfare evolved into mobile blitzkrieg warfare during WWII, soldiers had to maneuver and keep their heads up and on a swivel for closer range combat with full and semi auto fire. The Germans developed the StG 43 / 44 with taller sights and a straight line butt stock, along with a medium caliber rifle round with selective fire out of extended mags to press their technological and tactical advantages in combat.

First, I agree that stocks being inline w/ the bore are tremendous mechanical advantage with rapid semi-auto or f/a fire.  Muzzle devices like brakes, comps, and hybrid brakes & comps also can serve to accomplish the same.  Double or triple them up for max advantage...  Also remember the difference between full caliber/power cartridges and the intermediate and small caliber cartridges/caliber that now are general issue infantry weaponry...

Second, I don't think optics have to be cowitnessed with irons in this day and age given improved reliability of optics.  But there can be an advantage in cowitnessing depending on optic/reticle/magnification/etc.  If not cowitnessed, there is also a benefit to having irons and an additional benefit to having your optic on a QD mount.

Third, I think it's worth noting that the Vz58s' build quality and performance appears to indicate a nation that was looking to increase capability and therefor survivability of its soldiers, primarily based upon lessons learned in WW2.

Fourth, your comment's historical take is a pretty big oversimplification...
Like assaulting WW1 trenches, human wave attacks have also occurred in WW2 (look at pretty much all Russian advances pushing Germans out of Russia all the way back to Berlin), Korea, Vietnam, various African conflicts, and up into Afghanistan. 

Temporary and hasty firing positions remain a staple of the US infantry -- effectively a modern trench system whenever possible for cover, not concealment. 

Sniper and counter-sniper battles have occurred in every major conflict -- Juba Sniper of Baghdad for instance in Bush 2 Iraq War.  Sniping in Afghanistan regardless of inherent accuracy has been well document.  Modern fighting positions referenced on previous and their shooting only or primarily to oblique are also to help mitigate the efficacy of snipers...

Machine guns in WW1 like most since but also in bolt action rifle preceding were as much about beaten zones at distance as transversing sectors.  Look to the British's volley fire with Martini Henry and Mad Minute with Lee Enfields, both predating WW1.  WW2, it was the Germans' light and medium machine guns that were widely fielded throughout the war, not the Sturmgewehr, that defined the biggest advancement in German small arm combat and tactics.

While the US hasn't fought a peer or near-peer military since WW2, the US air, sea, artillery, comms, information, tech, etc, dominance in modern conflicts has allowed us to transition to largely a vehicle-borne infantry that has been engaging irregular enemies in 4th gen warfare where there's no clear front lines and no clear enemy and civilian, but such dominance and confusion is far from certain in possible future ones.  In such cases, hard-learned old and forgotten lessons of 3rd gen warfare -- what you're referencing as no longer applicable -- will have to be relearned...