Author Topic: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?  (Read 11109 times)

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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2021, 02:58:09 PM »
But... a magnified optic has MUCH to offer for a carbine - and why there is a market for such and military uses. 

In this, the VZ has a short dust cover and is therefore handicapped. 

Even a 2X helps people see the target better at most ranges, and a magnifier can help with Red Dots and non prism sights be more effective for those with any form of astigmatism.   This is simply a handicap for the VZ because I've never seen a system adapted to this carbine for multiplier use. 

Hence the 2X COULD be a useful but not perfect system on the 58.

You are right about weight and the VZ rail - why I may ditch the solid rail eventually.  But being able to use a magnified optic on the 58 is good - given its decent accuracy. 

Offline RSR

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2021, 04:44:03 PM »
But... a magnified optic has MUCH to offer for a carbine - and why there is a market for such and military uses. 

In this, the VZ has a short dust cover and is therefore handicapped. 

Even a 2X helps people see the target better at most ranges, and a magnifier can help with Red Dots and non prism sights be more effective for those with any form of astigmatism.   This is simply a handicap for the VZ because I've never seen a system adapted to this carbine for multiplier use. 

Hence the 2X COULD be a useful but not perfect system on the 58.

You are right about weight and the VZ rail - why I may ditch the solid rail eventually.  But being able to use a magnified optic on the 58 is good - given its decent accuracy. 

Your gripes have been noted, and no one's disputing that magnified optics can provide benefits albeit usually w/ some trade-offs.

There is no option to cowitness irons with red dot and multiplier/magnifier, excepting one prototype that used detachable AR irons on a monolithic system.

The taller Czech-made railed handguards with railed top cover were made so that both were at same height above bore so that night vision or multipliers can be used with forward mount full size red dot.  Probably images in picture thread of such or you can google.  I've seen them before.

Or you can look to the magwedge shared in a different thread that is a cost-effective monolithic upper. 

I don't see any reason to continue to belabor this.  This is starting to enter troll zone...

Edit: here you go from a quick google search: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111036.0

« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 04:54:56 PM by RSR »

Offline czgunner

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2021, 06:07:21 PM »

I don't see any reason to continue to belabor this.  This is starting to enter troll zone...

[/quote]

Thank you RSR. I was wondering if anybody else was seeing it the same way!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 12:04:17 PM by czgunner »
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2021, 06:24:29 PM »
RSR:  You're actually the one that took us on the LPVO route.  I don't think it is viable for the VZ 58 - correct?  I was trying to stay on track with a small 2X sight - one applicable to the 58. 

Let me ask my original question again.  Has anyone found that running the 2X gave enough of an advantage to be able to handle CQB and some 'distance' carbine shooting?  Perhaps used one in a course?  Would one need an extendable stock to run it on a VZ 58?  Thanks.

These are valuable questions as they save folks going down expensive and fruitless roads. 

« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 12:58:28 PM by briang2ad »

Offline Cyanide

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2021, 03:04:05 PM »
Let me ask my original question again.  Has anyone found that running the 2X gave enough of an advantage to be able to handle CQB and some 'distance' carbine shooting?

Brian, take this for what it’s worth, as I no longer have my VZ58 CQB model and moved back over to my AUG and AR’s (albeit w/7.62x39 uppers). Hopefully the little bit of info might help out.

Not PA optics, but I had/have several of the compact ACOG models and have several pics concerning reticle view and eye relief (though atop AR). Currently I still have the 1.5x16 TA44C mounted on my wife’s rifle, a 3x30 TA33 GH model on mine, and a TR24G on my AUG (though not applicable to this convo).

Truth be told, I really liked the 2x20 TA47C models, especially the one with the 9 MOA Triangle, the crosshairs not so much l, though would like to try the 7 MOA Dot variant. Small, light, and compact (identical in size to the 3x24 TA50 I’ve also had), and has very good eye relief, definitely more than what Trijicon lists. I definitely think it would fit the bill for 0-200 yard engagements, as long as it is used within it’s capabilities.

Old pic of the 2x20 TA47 on my AR, and beside my VZ58 CQB:







My apologies for the very poor pic quality, phone camera truly doesn’t capture anywhere remotely how clear and bright things really are through my optics. View through various ACOGs of my target backstop, a 6’ H x 6’W x 3’ D stack of Maple Tree stumps, 130 yards away. Couple of the images are looking through the 1.5x16 TA44C at an XL-sized shirt on torso sized target cutout.











TA44C and TA47C:





[emoji1303]

Offline RSR

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2021, 04:21:16 PM »
There is no option to cowitness irons with red dot and multiplier/magnifier, excepting one prototype that used detachable AR irons on a monolithic system.

The taller Czech-made railed handguards with railed top cover were made so that both were at same height above bore so that night vision or multipliers can be used with forward mount full size red dot.  Probably images in picture thread of such or you can google.  I've seen them before.

Or you can look to the magwedge shared in a different thread that is a cost-effective monolithic upper. 

I don't see any reason to continue to belabor this.  This is starting to enter troll zone...

Edit: here you go from a quick google search: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=111036.0


Clarifying monolithic rail/cowitness/higher sight options:
- One I was referencing was a Czech prototype for modernizing the Vz58 after budget/limited state finances didn't allow new small arms weapon system.  (I think might have also been a bullpup chassis prototype for the Vz58, but similar situation IIRC.)
- NEA/Neit (NEA bought out Neit and can't always remember who did what first) w/ their dual AR rear sight and AR buffer tube adapter also had sights on a higher plane and removed OEM front for a rail mounted AR front sight.  Not monolithic though. 
- The taller front handguard and railed top covers mentioned previously came contemporary with, if not after Neit/NEAs cowitness front handguard.  A few different options now.
- CSA 958 Hunter -- this was a Canadian model w/ heavy barrel and no iron sights and monolithic rail from rear sight across integral top cover.  There was also a Tactical model that was advertised with iron front sight and very low nonadjustable peep on the railed topcover.  Top cover screwed down onto the receiver, so not really acceptable for any serious use...
- Magwedge top rail which goes from rear sight to over OEM top cover

My point about variable LPVOs is that in most instances they are superior to fixed mag optics.  You can't adjust them to brighten in low light/twilight, generally have a more forgiving eyebox at 1x and have both higher and lower magnification when you want them.  Coupled with the weight you nevertheless have to carry and increased potential for loss/damage to magnifier carried off the rifle.  There are trade-offs with anything, but right now LPVOs tend to have the least number of them if you're looking for one rifle to do everything -- a recce rifle if you will...

The configuration I have advocated for is a forward mount red dot and accept its limitations.  W/ NEA upper rail and red dot -- that weighs about the same as OE upper handguard w/ beaver barf/wood.

Another option you can look at is offset BUIS or offset backup reflex.  Just ensure charging handle isn't in the way if you're right handed...

And by all means, you do whatever's best for you and your needs.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 05:13:03 PM by RSR »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2021, 05:56:23 PM »
Cyanide - very nice pics and posts!  Appreciate the new knowledge!  Gives me some hope on the 2X Prism system.  Thank you. 


Offline Cyanide

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2021, 09:41:12 PM »
Brian, you’re very welcome! Here’s a few more pics from my old 2x20 TA47C’s you may be interested in concerning the dreaded “washout” aiming out from a dark area into a bright one.







 

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2021, 10:09:31 AM »
RSR: 
Quote
he configuration I have advocated for is a forward mount red dot and accept its limitations.  W/ NEA upper rail and red dot -- that weighs about the same as OE upper handguard w/ beaver barf/wood.
 

I am beginning to believe this is indeed the case.  I may end up taking off my heavy rear mount base, or putting on a skeletonized one.  Keep it light and simple.

But MAYBE a 2X prism would work well and help my old eyes. 

Offline Grizzled

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2021, 11:52:40 AM »
Primary Arms has a 3x micro prism coming out very early next year.  5.5 ounces and around $270.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2021, 02:39:07 PM »
Back to one of my points - I think the 3X is a non starter for CQB distances... But as an overall hunting and range gun fine.

Offline RSR

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2021, 10:52:49 PM »
I am beginning to believe this is indeed the case.  I may end up taking off my heavy rear mount base, or putting on a skeletonized one.  Keep it light and simple.

But MAYBE a 2X prism would work well and help my old eyes.

For the lightest possible self-defense rifle WITH rule-of-law (what I think you're referencing), I don't know that there's much benefit to 2x vs 1x AND you lose the use of iron sights w/ any prism optic above and beyond the fact that you can't cowitness them on the Vz58 anyways.  If you have vision issues or want to show off precision shooting (especially if astigmatism turns red dots blurry and substantially increase MOA) or want to ensure optimal shot placement for humane hunting, then yes, there's a benefit to magnified optics.

I have astigmatism and exclusively run Vortex Spitfire 1x prisms on my home defense ARs for myself and my wife.  Detailed in another thread that I think it's a really fast reticle and superior to single dot of a red dot, despite substantial addition of weight. 
Something else to mention is that antireflective devices are invisible on most prism optics due to light reflection.  On red dots, you see that honeycomb.  Other ARs have LPVOs, mid-power variables, and red dots for need/use case.

With LPVOs your 1-4s and 1-8s run about the same weight, so I spend the little extra for that add'l magnification.  I also don't think the 1-4s are worth the weight given alternative higher magnification options -- different story 5 years ago when very few optics beyond 4x could offer a true 1 power.  And also why I question whether low mag prisms are superior -- even the Marine Corps is ditching ACOGs for a 1-8x LPVO from Trijicon.

Also worth mentioning:
In real life with rule-of-law, if you're using your scope to survey and point your rifle at a cop or anyone else who is armed even if just glassing, you're likely to get shot.
This year or last there was also that incident of someone in a truck bed w/ a scoped rifle and w/ protesters of some sort, who got arrested and jailed for pointing his rifle at them while looking through the scope and IIRC claimed he was just wanting to look at a potential threat more closely.
Regardless, my point is that 8x or 10x binocs or just as an important part of your kit as weapon's optics.  Unless you have some stabilization mechanism, anything beyond 8 to 10x in binocs gets pretty bouncy. 

In sum: EVERYTHING is a trade-off.  There's no perfection, and there's always limitations.  And everyone's needs and use cases are different.  Do what works for you and your needs and limitations.  The goal is to maximize your performance while using your tool in your use cases. 

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2021, 11:05:06 AM »
Right.

I'm starting to believe that I really like a fwd mount optic at cowitness.  This provides a really good FOV for SA and allows more precision than irons.  AK or VZ, I may go there.

Maybe augmenting with a 3X prism on a detachable mount is a better option as long range backup on the VZ.  I have a quick detach mount for the front, but the kicker is it does not yet return the front Micro to center.  Not yet.  It is an ARMS mount.  Very well made, and holds the MD25 lower than the stock mount.  But not proven yet. 

Offline RSR

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2021, 07:24:25 AM »
Don't you lose most cowitness ability with add'l height of detachable mount?

If your QD mount doesn't return to zero, then I question the quality of its design since returning to zero after QDing is the bare minimum baseline for its proper function/quality.

I don't get the point of the MD25. Best as I can tell it's for folks who haven't trained themselves and their eyes to shoot w/ both eyes open.  The ol' chapstick trick works well for that...
W/ the 40% larger tube diameter you also move your stock irons even lower in the tube/glass and also reduce the efficacy of the red dot tube itself serving as a large ghost ring. 

Larger tubes in prism optics that reflect light, especially magnified optics, can provide benefit (lens coatings, etc., also matter roughly equivalently), but I'm not aware of any similar intrinsic benefit for red dots given proper usage...  Additionally and for instance, Vortex spitfire's 1x DRT MOA reticle has two circle and a dot plus the tube, so three circles naturally draw the eye to the center.  The tube on red dots fills the same function as those three...

Food for thought.

So you're planning to tote around two optics with one at every time mounted off the weapon?  I'd suggest looking to one or the other an a 45* offset mount instead on mounts that hold and return to zero.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Primary Arms 2x prism on RS Regulate rail?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2021, 02:55:09 PM »
My comment on a 3X to augment is speculation.  I could EASILY see the use on a long range patrol for a specific use for a specific operation.  I've carried 70 LBS on my back for 25 Kms a day for extended periods.  NOT that I'd do that now - just saying its a viable possibility. 

The MD 25 provides me an ACSS reticle - not essential.  Provides a bit more capability.  I find it easy to use in a forward position like a dot, and provides SA and a bright tube and capability if I need it.  Meanwhile it provides rapid acquisition.

The ARMS mount is solid.  I've dismounted it and twice had to adjust the center.  So - why have it?  Two reasons.  One, it is LOWER and provides a better view in cowitness - yup hard to believe but true.  Second, if my MD25 gets damaged in the middle of an engagement, I throw it off and shoot with the irons unobstructed.  Some folks never considered that, but glass can break, or get sprayed with stuff.  Stuff happens at the worst time.  Murphy is everywhere on the battlefield. 

It also MAY need some breaking in.  Right now it does the first two functions fine.