Vz.58 Admirer from NC/WV Finally Taking the Leap

[AR-Tenner]

Hi folks,

I have had great respect for the VZ.58 since I was a poor undergraduate who could only afford milsurps like Nagants (back in the days of unissued 91/30s with full kit for $79), Mausers, Steyrs, and Arisakas.  The closest I could get to a good semi auto then was a really crappy SKS, but once I had graduated and made some money, before starting law school, I got into ArmaLite AR-10s, and adore them to this day.  In fact, I love them so much that I wrote the Collector Grade Publications book on them. 

Both in the course of writing my book and now working (my side job) as a gun and outdoors writer (I am also a world-record-holding trout angler), as well as actually acquiring and evaluating them, I have been blessed to get serious range and shop time with almost every self-loading rifle platform designed since the AVS-36, and somehow, other than the ARs, they have all come up wanting in my estimation.  All of them, however, except for the Vz.58. 

I have enjoyed, particularly over the last few years, setting up a rifle platform that is alternative to my AR arsenal, and would fill the special niches of survival rifle and "inoffensive" gray gun.  While nothing beats a well-made AR in environments like blowing sand/dust, mud, glacial silt (my family spends a couple months every year above 10,000' in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana), or in the fields of quick and ergonomic reloads and absolute precision, they do require a good bit of lubrication, and must be kept up well to function at their best.  Therefore, I have been on a quest to find a rifle platform to serve as a substitute standard, which will, if not dunked in mud or silt and then used with no cleaning, go bang every time, regardless of carbon fouling or lubrication; fire a cartridge that will easily down large deer and antelope at the reasonable ranges at which I subsistence hunt (I have taken 200+lb whitetails at more than 400 yards with .223 and 700 yards with .308, but do not see doing anything like this in a survival situation); and still have the speed and ergonomics to serve as a defensive personal weapon if needed for such service.

I also greatly appreciate a rifle that skirts the stupid (and not long for this world) bans in many jurisdictions, and can blend in as a gray gun that does not scare the sheep like an AR. 

My first attempt at this was the M1 Garand, and while I loved the history (one grandfather and seven great uncles carried it in WWII and Korea, while my other grandfather was actually too old for combat service by WWII, having served in the Banana Wars, and thus never trusted self-loaders and clung to his personally-owned 1903A3, on which he taught me to shoot) and looks of that fine battle rifle, the front sight falling off after being torqued to spec, unissued WWII-production clips needing attention and bending to spec before they would function well, and the front handguard catching fire after 64 rounds fired in one minute, I came to the sad realization that the M1 would not satisfactorily satisfy my needs.

Next came the M14, which did better, but still suffered from many of the same issues as the Garand, and also experienced some feed issues, so I checked out of that platform as well.  After that, and most recently, came the Mini 30, which while it looked great, suffered from so many serious reliability issues, that even after FOUR returns to Ruger, two of which actually resulted in them replacing the entire rifle, the darn thing would still regularly experience FTX, FTF, FTJ, bolt-over-base, and double-feed malfunctions at an incredible rate. 

While trying hard to give the Mini 30 its four chances to improve (three more than I should have given it), I had been researching other alternatives, but I could not find a satisfactory one.  The Kel Tec RDB-C seemed to be a cool idea but I learned that it was assembled with worse quality than Krieger in Archer would have managed, and the Fightlite SCR had very little attention or support from its manufacturer.  Neither of these were combat-proven designs, and were also chambered in a caliber I consider marginal, though I do enjoy shooting it and consider it to have its defensive and hunting utility in my AR-15s.

Then, almost by chance and in despair, I happened upon a rifle that I had held, shot, and adored from a friend's collection 16 years ago when I was still in undergraduate.  The Vz.58 looked to tick all my boxes.  Not only did it satisfy all the survival and niche requirements I had for a rifle, I realized that with the CSA "Liberty" mag lock, it would completely fly under the radar in all those fascist jurisdictions that suppress their people's civil rights, even New York (my wife and I call it Mordor), and California (we call it Isengard).  It is not that I ever plan to set foot, let alone live, in any of those poor, shackled lands, but for some reason it gives me peace of mind to outsmart them with a rifle that is still very effective.

I have now decided that the Vz.58 will be my substitute standard/survival rifle, and I am here to learn all I can about this wondrous weapon, built and championed by a singularly admirable and freedom-loving people!

[Wobbly]

Welcome from Georgia !

Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the sticky posts in the 'New Members' Forum and also the 'Important Information' sub-section.

[Alcoy]

Welcome to the forum.  I enjoyed reading your well written post.

[jwc007]

Welcome to the Forum! 

Sorry to read that your experience with the M14 was lackluster. The new Springfield M1A's are nicer than anything issued.  Had a Ruger Mini-30, but I found it's lack of accuracy disappointing.
My alternative to the M14 platform is the L1A1 FN FAL and I love it!!! 


L1A1 FN FAL Sporter, built on a Canadian Kit

Regarding the Vz58, my early production Century Vz2008 has been excellent so far, and is my "Go To" Rifle, for serious social concerns:


Custom Vz2008

[Laufer]

Welcome:

My Czechpoint (nib in 2019) has used 3,100 rds. Zero hiccups.
This ammo count is ---not a guess--- : a piece of each used ammo box is stored and Counted—

If you can tolerate awkward ergos in what (these days) are Very reliable rifles…

You might also consider a PTR-91, “Classic GI” or a variation with the factory rail.

These 91s are my favorite guns. Mine are 100 percent stock: even the triggers (!).
I own a pair of late 2021/early 2022 vintage (were nib).

Years ago they were built on German HK tooling which was bought/imported from Portugal; but then PTR transitioned to CNC production. Many years ago PTR increased their number of (chamber) flutings , which made extraction of brass cases  ,  “floating on gas” as bullet goes through the bore,  Very reliable.

[briang2ad]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your admiration of the VZ 58, a very unique weapon and a testament to Czech ingenuity and in SOME sense independent thought.

Not all Czechs are freedom loving as communism and atheism took their toll.  Fortunately enough wanted out of that wretched system.

If there could be ONE positive change on the VZ, it would be higher sights.  I needed to go to the OEM folding stock to shoot it comfortably, and now have a SIG 1913 folder on it which I think is close to optimum.  I just couldn't use the OEM fixed setup, and generally straight stocks hit my cheek badly because of the low sights. 

But real BHO mags nd the ability to take a bolt release and finger activated mag releases makes this a pretty nice weapon. 

[RSR]

For a survival rifle, you don't need a centerfire supersonic rifle cartridge, and I'd suggest either a 22lr or PCC might be the way to go (yes, both can be supersonic).
Easiest/most common options would be 10/22 takedown or charger, and then the 9mm Ruger PC Carbine/Charger (given unnecessarily heavy barrel of Carbine, I'd suggest the Charger -- you're a lawyer, so do your own analysis on risk on how the pistol brace BATF rules/proposed ban may play out in light of bumpstock ban being just overturned by the courts).  Ruger's new LC Carbine is also intriguing for a compact survival option in 5.7x28 (I think the .22lr vs .17 hmr debate is analogous to 9mm vs fn5.7), especially if you have to have a 16" barrel.

And given Biden's Russian ammo import ban that's not yet fully realized (already approved imports still trickling in but no more permits being approved), I suspect we'll see 7.62x39 become more expensive than .300 BLK in the near future...  .300 BLK does superb in short barrels making it ideal for a survival gun (again, contingent on pistol braces) and tends to have more ammo options, including factory-new subsonic loadings -- when subsonic, energy is roughly equivalent to .45 acp out of a PCC but w/ better ballistics and more penetration...  But if you run 5.56/.223 be aware of cross chambering capability and kaboom risk. 

That said, I'm in agreement the Vz58 is among the best CARBINES ever made, and perhaps the best post-WW2 to 2000 in its historical context.  But it is a dated design with limitations -- for me and many here, those limitations aren't dealbreakers, but for some they may be.
For a more modern 7.62x39 platform with less of those limitations, I'd suggest a CMMG Banshee might perhaps be a viable alternative, especially for someone well versed in the AR platform.  PSA also offers a version of this for lower cost.

And FWIW and in the historical context, I'd argue that post-WW2 to 2000, the Galil is also among the best if not the best semi-auto COMBAT RIFLE ever made.  In .308, I'd argue the FAL is superior to the Galil despite SWAT Magazine's Chuck Taylor arguing otherwise (primarily due to the FAL being designed around .308 whereas the Galil really wasn't -- issues with receivers and bolts in high round count situations) -- and to that end, shorty .308 FALs might also be worthy of survival rifle consideration.
EDIT: Saw this chart posted a few days ago on a different blog -- 11" .308 is a FAL, and for 7.62x39 the 8.5" is a Galil ACE and 16" is a WASR:

Looks like this is the original source and notes " 11” DSA Para FAL OSW ", click through for full accounting: https://masondixonsurvivalistassociation.wordpress.com/2023/01/06/a-comparison-of-cartridge-versus-energy-versus-barrel-length-versus-weight/
 
If speaking just to Armalite .308 RIFLES, they'd certainly be in contention but like Galil .308s are pretty much collector items -- and for the non-collector AR10 given so many variants, etc. issues, just isn't in contention for me as a battle rifle.  And my interest in AR10s these days is pretty much exclusively for an accurized 6.5 Creedmoor platform, not a .308...
While I don't have any particular issues w/ the PTR91s other than their 500 round required break-in for reliability, I think they're analogous to the AK in the carbine space -- extra weight, stamped metal, somewhat unbalanced/unwieldy, no last shot bolt hold open, other inherent limitations, cheap mags, etc.

Post-2000, you're likely looking at the AR15 being best at both due to all the development/improvement/aftermarket parts/customization of that platform (be it 5.56, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .300 BLK, .224 Valkerie, .300 Ham'r, 6mm ARC, etc. caliber), love it or hate it (and including both piston and DI guns and variants, even though DI AR15s aren't true DI, technically an internal piston).

Lastly, be aware that there are single stack sporter VZ58s still in circulation.  They're super-rare, but legal (at least as of 2020) in places like CT where many other semi-autos aren't. 
However, given the left's changes in ban definitions to features, not names, and the features list growing (for instance, Biden has recently stated he wants to ban ALL semi-auto firearms be it shotgun, rimfire, pistol, centerfire rifle, etc.), I don't know that there's much value in neutering a Vz58 or any rifle for cross-state portability.
Instead, my suggestion would be to get a lever action in .357 magnum (can also shoot .38 special) for anywhere you aren't worried about grizzlies, and .44 magnum lever action (also shoot .44 special) for anywhere that you are concerned about grizzlies.  AFAIK and haven't researched all state/jurisdiction's laws, they're about as gray as you can get and should be broadly legal -- and should be more reliable than a Ruger Mini rifle.  Your call on carrying a revolver sharing the same caliber vs an automatic, but that's certainly an option.

Regarding history of Czech weapons, there's actually a dearth of English-language material on them.

Hognose of the Weaponsman blog (he passed away unexpectedly in early 2017) was starting the first book in his planned compendium of Czech weapons, eventually planned to include rifles and the Vz58 -- he was a Green Beret and Czech was at least one of his qualifying languages -- and all of which I was really looking forward to...
An archive of his site is here, but his first book was never published but was allegedly in a largely complete draft and was to be regarding handguns (largely or exclusively autoloaders given my recollection of the guns he was buying at auction for purposes of studying/photographing): https://billstclair.com/weaponsman.com/

So that said, there's a good Vz58 book on ebay which is a great place to start and about the closest I'm aware of for commercially available source material: https://www.ebay.com/itm/294117045067

And the forums here have a decent coverage of known info as well, but will require a fair bit of reading.

Lastly, welcome.

[briang2ad]

Actually what is driving cheap 9mm, 5.56, and x39 is cheap steel case Russian ammo.  Not just X39.

[RSR]

Actually what is driving cheap 9mm, 5.56, and x39 is cheap steel case Russian ammo.  Not just X39.

I don't know that that's the case -- 7.62x39 is relatively unique in that Russia but also only a few other Eastern European countries produce the overwhelming bulk for the US consumer...  US 7.62x39 production is largely either steel-free range ammo or more premium hunting/self-defense loads w/ non-ball bullets (and where softer brass cases, as well as US-made primers, can and do cause reliability/safety issues in some combloc guns designed exclusively for steel-cased ammo, and why even some factory new Hornady loads use new Barnaul steel cases and primers).

I'd argue that's why foreign steel case 7.62x39 is still the same price as brass-cased 5.56 ball ammo, when it used to be about the same price as 9mm ball -- so that's already an ~50% increase relatively.
.300 blk is still a fair bit more expensive than 7.62x39 (50 cents vs 35 cents per rounds), but it's really a supply-demand issue in my mind (more new guns in caliber/shooters than factory production).  .300 blk is also easier to reload than 7.62x39, especially subsonic loads.

Yes, the Russian ammo given stupid cheap raw material and energy prices and presumably also labor costs is more affordable than western-produced ammo, but excepting combloc calibers, it's largely a separate consumer/market in the US versus the more premium brass-cased ammo.
Point being, Russian ammo does affect the SUPPLY portion of the supply and demand equation broadly, but I don't think that it's meaningfully impacting specific brass-cased ammo costs much beyond that...  For instance, most brass ammo that can compete in cost w/ Russian steel case is actually foreign -- Wolf Gold is actually Taiwanese, S&B is Czech, Fiocchi is Italian, PMC is South Korea, Armscor is Philippines, Igman is Bosnia, PPU is Serbia, Lahab is UAE, Magtech is Brazil, BPS is Turkey, etc.

So I think there might be some ammo cost increases broadly due to a generally reduced supply, but those increases and alternative ammo availability will vary wildly by caliber with those calibers primarily produced by Russian and its former comblocs likely to see the biggest price increases (and that's also not accounting for any increased demand/reduced supply due to the Ukraine conflict and militarization more broadly for this combloc ammo from and within the former combloc countries that produce it due to current or prospective military needs in their immediate neighborhood/for their own national security, where exports/profitability take a backseat)...

And right now, the price of ammo is dropping due to reduced demand (largely less budget for "luxury"/"recreation" of range time), ammo retailers having a glut of ammo because of reduced demand and substantial backorders still arriving, and inflation and uncertain market conditions driving many to cut their losses and monetize/sell whatever they can for whatever they can get for it ASAP -- because more backorders will continue to be fulfilled...  Nearly all major ammo manufacturers have backorders dating to YEARS, not months, right now per my understanding.

[MeatAxe]

Let’s not forget India, which has factories churning out vast stockpiles of 7.62x39 for their own military. I’m sure they could channel quantities of that ammo stateside for relatively cheap prices and still make a ton of money.

The supply is there, the demand is here. There are about a bizillion people over there, working relatively cheap, as their industrial production steadily improves in quality and quantity. And nearly everybody over there speaks perfect, understandable English. Sounds like a match made in Heaven!!

[RSR]

Let’s not forget India, which has factories churning out vast stockpiles of 7.62x39 for their own military. I’m sure they could channel quantities of that ammo stateside for relatively cheap prices and still make a ton of money.

The supply is there, the demand is here. There are about a bizillion people over there, working relatively cheap, as their industrial production steadily improves in quality and quantity. And nearly everybody over there speaks perfect, understandable English. Sounds like a match made in Heaven!!

India's concerned about wars with both Pakistan and China...  So uncertain how much ammo might be coming this way.

And there's this: https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/blood-of-indian-army-on-faulty-ammunition-from-ordnance-factory-board/cid/1793438

Blood of troops on faulty ammunition
The army’s internal report speaks of ‘poor quality’ ammunition and mines manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board in the past six years, which resulted in over 400 accidents from 2014 to 2019
[...]
The Indian Army has said in an internal report to the defence ministry that Rs 960 crore was spent on “poor quality” ammunition and mines manufactured by the State-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in the past six years.
[...]
The faulty ammunition mentioned in the army’s report includes 23-mm air defence shells, artillery shells, 125-mm tank rounds and different calibres of bullets used in assault rifles.

The OFB functions under the defence ministry’s department of defence production and is one of the oldest State-owned production entities.

“Lack of accountability and poor quality of production result in frequent accidents. This results in injuries and deaths of soldiers. On an average, one accident takes place per week,” said the report.

The report said the OFB “is expected to be a national strategic asset”.

“The sub-optimal efficiency of this potential strategic asset is one of the major contributing factors to the hollowness threatening the ammunition and armament holdings of the Indian Army,” the report said.

It expressed concern that certain countries have refused to accept ammunition and equipment made by the ordnance factory.

[briang2ad]

NO DOUBT Russian 7.62 will harmfully impact the round's supply here in the states, given foreseen circumstances.

But lets say the AK makes up 2-4 million of the 24 million supposed assault rifles (ARs and AKs), that is a fair number and there will remain a market for the ammunition, and unlike the WWII Mausers won't be converted to another caliber.  Also, worldwide usage is up if anything with the demise of 5.45 and other types of AKs (5.56) in view of other available weapons. 

If Russia cannot export ammo to the US, we will not be alone.  The 'global order' will stifle export.  This easily could drive a market elsewhere.  It won't be Ukraine for now.  (and... Ukraine is a HUGE country and plenty of resources, and is now an object of worship now with money awash).

So... yes, X39 can easily spike again (it went from $300 - $400/case, and did not come down as 5.56 and 9mm did) I think predicting the longer term ammo market for the most prolific rifle in world history is tough at best, even if we know Russia will get the axe.

But back to the VZ.  It is 'sooo cooool' and does represent a sort of mature cold war sturmgewehr approach/alternative to this mega prolific form of "assault rifle".  It has its faults, but it presents a darn good alternative. 

[MeatAxe]

Let’s not forget India, which has factories churning out vast stockpiles of 7.62x39 for their own military. I’m sure they could channel quantities of that ammo stateside for relatively cheap prices and still make a ton of money.

The supply is there, the demand is here. There are about a bizillion people over there, working relatively cheap, as their industrial production steadily improves in quality and quantity. And nearly everybody over there speaks perfect, understandable English. Sounds like a match made in Heaven!!

India's concerned about wars with both Pakistan and China...  So uncertain how much ammo might be coming this way.

And there's this: https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/blood-of-indian-army-on-faulty-ammunition-from-ordnance-factory-board/cid/1793438

Blood of troops on faulty ammunition
The army’s internal report speaks of ‘poor quality’ ammunition and mines manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board in the past six years, which resulted in over 400 accidents from 2014 to 2019
[...]
The Indian Army has said in an internal report to the defence ministry that Rs 960 crore was spent on “poor quality” ammunition and mines manufactured by the State-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in the past six years.
[...]
The faulty ammunition mentioned in the army’s report includes 23-mm air defence shells, artillery shells, 125-mm tank rounds and different calibres of bullets used in assault rifles.

The OFB functions under the defence ministry’s department of defence production and is one of the oldest State-owned production entities.

“Lack of accountability and poor quality of production result in frequent accidents. This results in injuries and deaths of soldiers. On an average, one accident takes place per week,” said the report.

The report said the OFB “is expected to be a national strategic asset”.

“The sub-optimal efficiency of this potential strategic asset is one of the major contributing factors to the hollowness threatening the ammunition and armament holdings of the Indian Army,” the report said.

It expressed concern that certain countries have refused to accept ammunition and equipment made by the ordnance factory.

Well that certainly sucks…but if you read the article it says the source of the faulty ammo and artillery shells was from a fire at India’s largest munitions depot. So hopefully they got that rectified and the problem is not from lousy qc at the factory. For some stupid reason they must have distributed this tainted ammunition instead of destroying it. The article is from 2020, so hopefully this was a one-time incident that’s been rectified and not a reflection of the quality of Indian munitions in general. Otherwise it would be hard to operate an army if your ammo is as likely to kill you as the enemy!!

Looks like a total cluster…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctXmVuzr5Zg

[RSR]

Well that certainly sucks…but if you read the article it says the source of the faulty ammo and artillery shells was from a fire at India’s largest munitions depot. So hopefully they got that rectified and the problem is not from lousy qc at the factory. For some stupid reason they must have distributed this tainted ammunition instead of destroying it. The article is from 2020, so hopefully this was a one-time incident that’s been rectified and not a reflection of the quality of Indian munitions in general. Otherwise it would be hard to operate an army if your ammo is as likely to kill you as the enemy!!

Looks like a total cluster…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctXmVuzr5Zg

I don't think the fire was the only cause of ammo issues as I understand it as ammo issues are still be reported just last year.

For instance: https://thewire.in/security/with-snags-reported-defence-ministry-decides-against-repeating-us-assault-rifle-order

04/MAY/2022
[...]

According to industry officials, the “operational shortcomings” in the SIG716 rifles included “jamming” while firing locally produced 7.62 mm rounds, which were not as efficient as imported ammunition, of which limited amounts had initially been acquired but had since been expended.

When fired, these local rounds reportedly, in many instances, tended to spawn “barrel bulges” that rendered many rifles inoperable. These bulges ensued after a round failed to exit the rifle upon firing and then the follow-on round built up tremendous pressure due to the constricted air inside the barrel, causing it, in turn, to either develop a bulge, cracks or even lead to it exploding altogether.

The local ammunition also generated a higher recoil or kickback in the rifles compared to that produced by Russian Kalashnikov AK-47 variants or the indigenously developed Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) 5.56×45 mm assault rifles that Indian Army troops had employed for decades. Army sources said that the indigenous ammunition also rendered ‘somewhat questionable and inaccurate’ the rifles second round burst accuracy. In a semi-automatic firearm like the SIG716, ‘burst-mode’ firing enabled the shooter to fire a predetermined number of rounds – normally two or three – at a target with a single pull of the trigger.

Are you aware of all of the faults/failures of the domestically produced INSAS rifles that led to mothballed AKMs as interim replacements, and the Sig 716s and the AK-203s as its permanent replacement?

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/indias-anti-terror-troops-despise-their-assault-rifle-3fcafa392aaa

Jan 13, 2015

India’s Anti-Terror Troops Despise Their Assault Rifle
Soldiers would prefer AKs to this piece of junk

https://warisboring.com/from-a-hospital-bed-an-indian-soldier-bleeped-his-defective-rifle/

From a Hospital Bed, an Indian Soldier bleeped His Defective Rifle
New Delhi can’t expect its troops to fight rebels with these awful weapons
August 30, 2015

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/indian-army-rejects-made-in-india-rifles-for-2nd-year-in-a-row-after-they-failed-miserably-during-trials/articleshow/59257363.cms

Indian Army rejects Made in India rifles for 2nd year in a row after they failed miserably during trials
 Jul 14, 2018

NEW DELHI: The Army has rejected an indigenously built assault rifle, citing poor quality and ineffective fire power, and is soon likely to take a fresh call on procuring similar weapons to replace the INSAS rifles.

The Army decided to reject the 7.62x51 mm guns built by the Rifle Factory Ishapore after they miserably failed the firing tests last week.

Official sources said there were "excessive number of faults" in the guns and "complete redesigning of the magazine" was needed to consider the guns to be used by the Army.

"Excessive flash and sound signature" were observed in the rifles during the trials, they said adding reliability aspect of the weapons needs comprehensive analysis.

The rifles had excessive number of faults and stoppages to the extent of more than twenty times the maximum permissible standards, the sources said.

https://thewire.in/security/indian-army-china-ladakh-assault-rifle-import

'Atmanirbhar' India's Quest for Army Rifles Underlines Confusion in Procurement Policy
Between flawed designs and changing specs, the military and defence ministry have gone around in circles for 30 years. Now, weapon system purchases are being fast-tracked because of the China standoff but delivery could take 2-3 years.
21/JUL/2020
[...]
The narrative begins in the early 1990s when the army tasked the government-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop an assault rifle substitute to replace the inordinately heavy and outmoded Belgian 7.62mm FN FAL licence-built rifle dating back to 1953.

The DRDO spent nearly a decade designing the 5.45x45mm rifle at great cost, as part of the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS) that also included a carbine, machine gun and sniper rifle. The latter three weapon systems, however, were abandoned, but around the mid-1990s the army was ‘persuaded’ to operationally approve the INSAS assault rifle which then went into series production at the Ordnance Factory Board’s (OFB) Rifle Factory at Ishapore in West Bengal.

Soon after its induction into service in the late 1990’s, problems with the rifle’s efficiency surfaced. These centred round its sights, which malfunctioned especially in extreme temperatures, and its firing mechanism that often jammed during firefights. But successive army chiefs, without demurring, persisted in employing the INSAS rifle that was the infantry’s principal weapon during the Kargil war, much to the operational chagrin of many combat formations.

Front line infantry and Rashtriya Rifles (RR) units deployed on counter insurgency operations however, preferred the tested Russian Kalashnikov AK-47 of which 1,00,000 were imported from Bulgaria in 1995 for $8.3 million as a ‘stop gap’ measure.

The INSAS rifle at the time was priced at Rs 16,000-18,000 each, compared to the imported Bulgarian Ak-47 that cost around Rs 4,185 per unit.

The INSAS rifle’s inadequacy also became a contentious issue between India and Nepal in August 2005, after the then Royal Nepal Army (RNA) claimed the gun repeatedly malfunctioned during firefights with Maoist guerrillas, resulting in heavy casualties. At the time, the RNA claimed that the rifle also became too hot and unusable after sustained firing. India reacted irately to these charges, blaming the RNA’s lack of experience in maintaining the rifles, further alienating the Himalayan nation’s army.

In 2010, the army’s rocky relationship with the INSAS rifle ended, after it declared it to be ‘operationally inadequate’ and overtaken by ‘technological development’- a euphemism for simply being a poorly designed product.

And all of this is why so many folks have issue w/ Sig using Indian-made MIM parts in their small arms...

[RSR]

NO DOUBT Russian 7.62 will harmfully impact the round's supply here in the states, given foreseen circumstances.

But lets say the AK makes up 2-4 million of the 24 million supposed assault rifles (ARs and AKs), that is a fair number and there will remain a market for the ammunition, and unlike the WWII Mausers won't be converted to another caliber.  Also, worldwide usage is up if anything with the demise of 5.45 and other types of AKs (5.56) in view of other available weapons. 

If Russia cannot export ammo to the US, we will not be alone.  The 'global order' will stifle export.  This easily could drive a market elsewhere.  It won't be Ukraine for now.  (and... Ukraine is a HUGE country and plenty of resources, and is now an object of worship now with money awash).

So... yes, X39 can easily spike again (it went from $300 - $400/case, and did not come down as 5.56 and 9mm did) I think predicting the longer term ammo market for the most prolific rifle in world history is tough at best, even if we know Russia will get the axe.

But back to the VZ.  It is 'sooo cooool' and does represent a sort of mature cold war sturmgewehr approach/alternative to this mega prolific form of "assault rifle".  It has its faults, but it presents a darn good alternative.

Right, but typically a "survival rifle" is first and foremost contingent upon broad ammo availability.  If existing stocks of 7.62x39 are shot up faster than they're replaced, then 7.62x39 rifles are increasingly inappropriate for frontline "survival" use...   That's why I suggested calibers that are more widespread, domestically produced, and easily reloaded, if needed.  For instance, at 50 cents per round, you can fire or stockpile at least 6 22lr rounds for the same cost as one round of what 7.62x39 will likely be...