CZ TS2 Failure to Feed

[tdogg]

First off congrats!  You've definitely earned your range time with this gun.

Secondly you need to stop and take a picture of the failure and share it.  Have your phone ready and snap a pic next time it happens.  Your gun should be able to run many more rounds than that without cleaning.

Is the round in the chamber or hung up on the feed ramp?  Did that ammo pass the plunk test?

I lock the slide back and take a rag and wipe the feed ramp with my finger as best I can.  That gets me through the range day or competition so I can pull apart and clean.

I just polish the ramp with a compound and felt wheel in my Dremel (rotary too l).  That usually gets it mirror like fairly quick.

Cheers,
Toby

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

[dabljues]

Secondly you need to stop and take a picture of the failure and share it.  Have your phone ready and snap a pic next time it happens.  Your gun should be able to run many more rounds than that without cleaning.

Will do! I think on Wednesday. Assuming the malfunction actually happens. But yeah, if it does, I will take a picture. Could it be that I didn't polish the feed ramp enough (or thoroughly) and this is what on one hand fixed the issue, but on the other hand - not fully (like you mentioned - it should be able to run more rounds without cleaning). Here are the pics of it if you wanna take a look:

Is the round in the chamber or hung up on the feed ramp?

Round it partially in the chamber. I mean, the bullet (nose of the round) is hitting the top of the chamber - the whole cartridge is angled up. It looks something like this (this is a picture of a different CZ, from the internet):

Did that ammo pass the plunk test?

Yes. I've tested 124gr S&B (this is what I was shooting the most last couple of months) and 140gr S&B (I'm starting to like it more now). A distinct "ting" and a free spin back and forth. And just to be clear, this was the 2nd box of the same ammo (140gr S&B), so it's not like it's the ammo (I think), because I shot a full box of it at the beginning of my trip with no issues.

I lock the slide back and take a rag and wipe the feed ramp with my finger as best I can.  That gets me through the range day or competition so I can pull apart and clean.

Yeah. I think maybe I didn't do a good enough job polishing it and ad hoc cleaning it at the range. But when I was at the range I thought exactly what you said - "well, I've done it, fixed it and whether I'm in competition or just training, I'll be able to give it a quick wipe to get me going". And felt relieved

I just polish the ramp with a compound and felt wheel in my Dremel (rotary too l).  That usually gets it mirror like fairly quick.

I just take a sandpaper and a Q-tip (that is because it fits into the feed ramp, so I polish the inside of the "channel" not the area outside it by pushing the sandpaper into the feed ramp with the Q-tip). It's not yet mirror-like and I think I can do a better job, definitely.

[EndangeredSpecies]

I did polish the feed ramp on mine after 100 rounds. Used 2 different grits of lapping compound. Wasn't mirror, but is very smooth.
I got a lot of grief over on my thread because "A new CZ shouldn't need it."

I'm going to the range on Monday, but pretty sure mine was the grimy extractor, exacerbated by incorrectly reassembling a magazine or 2.
(Failures began before I touched any of the magazines, so they were not the initial cause.)
Will find out for sure soon!
Thanks for the pointers.

[dabljues]

Another update!

I polished the feed ramp some more (almost a mirror finish). I went to the range yesterday and started to shoot. Gun cleaned, took the factory mags and the new one I already had on the previous range trip.

After something like 80 rounds - whoopsie, failure to feed. Cleared it, started shooting again. So, like before, this happened at the last round in the mag - I mean the last round wouldn't chamber. It happened a couple more times (not always, as usual). I noticed that this happened on a factory mag. These mags were only cleaned once - a couple of months ago (many rounds through the gun since then), but my understanding was, that this was due to the feed ramp inconsistencies (and it getting dirty), not the mags, that's why I forgot about them. However, I switched to the new mag (I also had it on the range a week ago), shot another 100 rounds through that mag only - no issues at all. And I deliberately loaded 2-3 rounds max to see what happens on the last round.

@tdogg

I promised you pics of the malfunction and I'm a man of my word I took some pictures on the range, I attach one of them here below:



You can see the rest of the pics here (I didn't want to clutter up the thread) - https://imgur.com/a/5eVZ9xm. There are a couple of them, I tried to show it from the different angles. Sorry for the quality of some of them - the range has bad lighting + I obviously couldn't point the gun anywhere else other than the target, so it was a lil' bit tricky.

So, my guess is - the polishing of the feed ramp definitely helped. But all the things here are connected. So, for example - I think that old/factory mags are the issue (due to gunk on the follower, gunk inside, bad spring). Either the dirt on the follower angles the round incorrectly, maybe they don't have enough force, maybe they are too slow to push the last round as the slide cycles and the round goes forward under a strange angle. Things that mitigated this - stronger recoil spring (basically pushing the cartridge by force, that's why I decided not to use it like a month ago) and the aforementioned polished feed ramp. As the feed ramp gets dirty, the advantages from it getting polished are diminished, that's why at the beginning everything is fine, later the problems start occurring.

I also now cleaned the mags after coming back from the range. Scrubbed metal parts with a brush and solvent, followers with Q-tips and cotton pads (as they are plastic). Here's a before:



and after:



I also installed a new follower in one of the factory mags: (so now I have 2 factory ones, one factory with a new follower and a completely new one)



So, this is my next quess - mags. Unfortunately, I didn't keep track of which mags I was shooting at my previous range trip (a week ago, not yesterday), so I don't know if malfunctions also happened on a new mag then, but yesterday I saw that they happened only on the factory uncleaned mags, the new one worked flawlessly (it's just 100+ rounds is not that big of a sample size). Now I have them all clean and ready to go. Next range trip (again, probably Wednesday) I will try to shoot them all and see what happens. Because, as you, @tdogg, said - it shouldn't be like 100 rounds till a malfunction happens (due to a dirty feed ramp). The only thing that wasn't cleaned between the range trips was the mags. I only cleaned them once after like maybe first 200 rounds and then I think I shot something like 1500 more without any mag maintenance. I did that now (and tried to do a thorough job).

Soo, what do you think? Could it be the mags? I mean this is what I'm thinking (because yesterday the malfunctions didn't happend on a new mag). The only thing that makes me not 100% convinced is I only shot like 100-150 rounds through the new mag yesterday (silly of me not to keep track of which mags I was shooting with a week ago) and this is maybe not the biggest sample size, maybe it was luck.

[tdogg]

Honestly, you've exhausted the easy things to inspect, clean, and tune.  It's time to employ a professional or send it back to the factory.  This thing has something off that isn't readily apparent.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Toby

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

[tdogg]

Thanks for the images.  It looks like the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor.  I don't attribute that type of failure to feed as a magazine issue.  Not saying it couldn't be though.

Cheers,
Toby

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

[Wobbly]

In the photo you posted...



• I'd have to say that the area to worry about is not the feed ramp (that mission is accomplished), nor is it the magazine (that mission is also accomplished), but rather the bolt face. That's where all the sliding is occurring. The bolt face and the underside of the extractor.

• Also, what happened to the round that's in this picture ? No mention of that. Was it tested for plunk and spin, or anything else ?

[dabljues]

Thanks again guys for keeping up the support!

@tdogg

Honestly, you've exhausted the easy things to inspect, clean, and tune.  It's time to employ a professional or send it back to the factory.  This thing has something off that isn't readily apparent.

Oh the dreaded warranty Yeah, the gun is still under warranty, I just don't wanna lose it for god knows how long. I also hope that the polishing that I done doesn't void it (I would probably need to reinstall every factory spring etc. but that's not an issue). As for a professional, I finally found a local business - couple of guys that specialize in CZs. They're pricey, but I think I'd probably go to them first.

Thanks for the images.  It looks like the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor.  I don't attribute that type of failure to feed as a magazine issue.  Not saying it couldn't be though.

I took some pictures from the extractor side (in the link I provided above). I know they're not good. I took out and cleaned the extractor a week ago. Then 300 rounds, cleaning (without taking it out) and the range visit yesterday. So I think (or hope) that it's not like it's dirty. I also changed out the spring there (from CZ). If it was the extractor, the only thing that would come to mind that it's maybe bent somehow, but I compared it to the images of CZ75 extractors online and didn't find any differences.

@Wobbly

I'd have to say that the area to worry about is not the feed ramp (that mission is accomplished), nor is it the magazine (that mission is also accomplished), but rather the bolt face. That's where all the sliding is occurring. The bolt face and the underside of the extractor.

Hmm. Okay, I think 2 weeks ago I tried to really clean the breech face (or bolt face like you say, sorry, I'm not sure about the terminology). And I clean it every time. I took some pictures now - don't judge me, the gun's not been cleaned yet - I only wiped the breech face with Q-tips and cotton pads:



And here's the underside of the extractor:



You mentioned that the issue could be happening on the bolt face. The bronze coloring is not rust but rather brass. I took my pinky to check how smooth it is - it wasn't like glass, but it's not like it's rough or something. Do you see something unusual here? Should I, I don't know, polish it or maybe something is out of shape?

Also, what happened to the round that's in this picture ? No mention of that. Was it tested for plunk and spin, or anything else ?

Okay, that round (I mean the exact piece you see on the image) was not plunk&spin tested on the range. However that round (meaning S&B 140gr) was tested by me (took about 15 different rounds from the box, no issue at all) among other rounds that I use. I should've done that, but I forgot about it. Next time if the malfunction occurs, I will do that, definitely!

[Wobbly]

Okay, that round (I mean the exact piece you see on the image) was not plunk&spin tested on the range. However that round (meaning S&B 140gr) was tested by me (took about 15 different rounds from the box, no issue at all) among other rounds that I use. I should've done that, but I forgot about it. Next time if the malfunction occurs, I will do that, definitely!

OK, so my thinking (not that it means very much or can be traded for a cup of coffee) is that....

The first thing to determine is it worth investigating? It could be like finding 5 fraudulent votes in an election where 10,000 votes were counted. Yes, they are fraudulent, but they did not effect the outcome. As sad as it sounds, once a year a doctor somewhere drops a newborn baby. In short, 100% is a fabulous goal, but the reality is always more like 99.99%.

The second thing to determine is the round the culprit or an innocent bystander in a mechanical malfunction? To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.

All ammo makers are having trouble right now. Even the "really good", "trusted", previously high quality makers are having trouble. You can not rule out a bad round today based on a reputation earned 5 years ago. 2022/23 is simply an era unto itself. If someone believes otherwise, then those people are out of touch with reality.

The possible answer was right in your hands, and yet there was zero follow through to help answer your own question. What I'm saying is: In a research lab environment, you'd be fired. In a serious legal case, you'd be prosecuted for 'destroying evidence'. This action is a serious issue unto itself.

IMHO, (with no malice toward the OP or disrespect in any form) as a researcher for multiple Fortune 500 companies....
• The bottom line is that you may be asking us to "unlock" a question to which you hold all the keys.
• You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.
• You should proabably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.
• And put less credence in what you read on the internet (including me) and depend more on what CZ and CZ-USA publish.

All the best.

[dabljues]

Thanks for the constructive criticism!

The first thing to determine is it worth investigating?

This is a very good question. I was talking to a buddy of mine like an hour ago and I said that if I don't fix it in the next week or two (just checking the mags, definitely testing the ammo that will malfunction, maybe even taking it home for a further investigation), then it's either a gunsmith or I simply don't care. I can shoot bullseye even if once in X rounds I have an FTF, it's not the end of the world. But it pains me. Additionally, in the future (maybe near future), I'd like to get another CZ75 - either Shadow 2 Orange or TS2 Orange and I would like to have more confidence in CZs. If I'd be able to fix that one, my confidence would be increased.

To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.

Yes, exactly. I kinda neglected the ammo question and that was wrong of me. Coincidentally, I order a precision caliper yesterday, I can use it to test out the ammo (from the box and the one I will take back from the range - the one that malfunctioned)

You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.

About this: people from my range and the gun shop shoot IPSC. Many of them use the TS2 and Shadow 2. It's them that recommended the 140gr S&B rounds for example. However, it's not like the 124gr rounds (which I have a stockpile of) worked flawlessly. I only started shooting those heaver rounds like two weeks ago, the FTFs were happening before that, when I was shooting 124 S&B 99% of the time.

You should proabably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.

I can, it's not a problem for me. I will prioritize them on the next range trip, but I doubt it will help...


To sum up, I will test the newly cleaned mags on the next range trip + I will take every round that malfunctioned home to test it (and probably plunk test it on the spot additionally). I'm also curious about this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0. The 3rd point mentions the slide stop interfering with the round being chambered. I didn't pay attention to it on the range, nor it's visible on the images, plus I don't exactly know if I'd be able to see it if it happens on the range. However, as the slide stop is a spare part, I could potentially try to file it off a bit. What do you think? Could it also contribute to the FTFs?

[Wobbly]

1. Thanks for the constructive criticism!

The first thing to determine is it worth investigating?

2. This is a very good question. I was talking to a buddy of mine like an hour ago and I said that if I don't fix it in the next week or two (just checking the mags, definitely testing the ammo that will malfunction, maybe even taking it home for a further investigation), then it's either a gunsmith or I simply don't care. I can shoot bullseye even if once in X rounds I have an FTF, it's not the end of the world. But it pains me. Additionally, in the future (maybe near future), I'd like to get another CZ75 - either Shadow 2 Orange or TS2 Orange and I would like to have more confidence in CZs. If I'd be able to fix that one, my confidence would be increased.

To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.

Yes, exactly. I kinda neglected the ammo question and that was wrong of me. Coincidentally, I order a precision caliper yesterday, I can use it to test out the ammo (from the box and the one I will take back from the range - the one that malfunctioned)

You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.

3. About this: people from my range and the gun shop shoot IPSC. Many of them use the TS2 and Shadow 2. It's them that recommended the 140gr S&B rounds for example. However, it's not like the 124gr rounds (which I have a stockpile of) worked flawlessly. I only started shooting those heaver rounds like two weeks ago, the FTFs were happening before that, when I was shooting 124 S&B 99% of the time.

You should probably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.

I can, it's not a problem for me. I will prioritize them on the next range trip, but I doubt it will help...


To sum up, I will test the newly cleaned mags on the next range trip + I will take every round that malfunctioned home to test it (and probably plunk test it on the spot additionally). I'm also curious about this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0. The 3rd point mentions the slide stop interfering with the round being chambered. I didn't pay attention to it on the range, nor it's visible on the images, plus I don't exactly know if I'd be able to see it if it happens on the range. However, as the slide stop is a spare part, I could potentially try to file it off a bit. What do you think? Could it also contribute to the FTFs?

1. Thanks for taking it as "constructive". I truly meant it as such, but I'm a very fact-oriented, numbers-type guy. A lot of people don't get my 'directness'. But by the time a thread gets to 4 pages I figured it's time for some new ideas. 

2. One thing to remember about a gunsmith.... they will be even more in the dark than your audience here is. By this I mean they are not likely to grab up 5000 rounds and take the pistol to the range. No. They may fire a mag or 2 at the most... during which time they may, or may not, experience the same thing. And this could be because they test with Federal 115gr, they use only personal "trusted mags", they use a different gun oil, or they may test with one of those rock-solid pistol stands. Who knows ?

A really good gunsmith is first going to see if the gun will "talk" to him/her. (People who deal with machines for a living often have this 'knack'.) If there is no communication, then (to keep the charges reasonable) they will head right for the "top 10 CZ fixes" and hope they spot something while they complete that list. Most of these "fixes" revolve around polishing and loosening the tolerances at various points as though the gun had run 5000 rounds. If you'll think about it, what else can they do?

3. I don't think anyone is trying to intentionally mislead you. Not here or in your group of shooting friends. But the big difference is your gun is new and theirs is not. Tiny differences in wear patterns, added options, spring weights, lubrication.... they all add up.

• Personally, I'm a big believer in going back to the beginning. Start with the stock factory gun, stock springs, 124gr FMJ ammo, etc.

• Yes, investigate the slide stop. That's a known issue, but it doesn't effect every gun. Definitely be aware it exists, look for it and keep checking for it.

• Yes, clean the mags. Clean the gun. Wash your hands. Clean with fresh lubricant is a good thing.

• And then go shoot. Lots. Let your gun get fully "broken in". Then as you shoot, you can add one option back each month.

• One FTF is not the end of the world. It's why we practice clearing the gun.

That's probably a moderate, low cost, low stress solution.

All the best.

[dabljues]

2. One thing to remember about a gunsmith.... they will be even more in the dark than your audience here is. By this I mean they are not likely to grab up 5000 rounds and take the pistol to the range. No. They may fire a mag or 2 at the most... during which time they may, or may not, experience the same thing. And this could be because they test with Federal 115gr, they use only personal "trusted mags", they use a different gun oil, or they may test with one of those rock-solid pistol stands. Who knows ?

That's true. This is kinda the last resort but I totally agree with you. Me (not an expert) and you guys have spent so much time in here that it's a really low possibility of a gunsmith to actually find anything. Especially because, as you said, checking if the solution works involves firing the gun. And not 20 not 50 times, because no one knows when the malfunction will happen. That's unfortunate for me as well, since I really like to tinker with stuff, but I have no way of knowing if my fix worked right away - I have to wait to go to the range and obviously ammunition is not cheap

Personally, I'm a big believer in going back to the beginning. Start with the stock factory gun, stock springs, 124gr FMJ ammo, etc.

Yes. My plan for the next range trip is to take a whole lotta ammo, take the factory recoil spring (I don't think that the trigger and sear spring that I replaced are in any way connected to my issues) and if the malfunction happens (so I'm sure that the mags or the slide stop fix, if I do it, didn't help) I'll just switch to the factory recoil spring. I'm kinda expecting it to work, because it did - I tested multiple springs and this was the only one that wasn't giving me FTFs (again not sure if the sample size is big enough). The big thing is - as far as I remember, I think the FTFs happened with the factory configuration. But this could mean nothing because since then the gun has been broken in a bit, I polished some stuff and definitely learned better gun maintenance. As I said earlier, this is not ideal that I'd have to leave this gun in a factory state, because one of the reasons I was getting a CZ75 was the immense amount of possibilities to tinker and change stuff in it.

But I started to treat it like - maybe this gun is a lemon (just slightly) and I for sure will get another in the future (this time investing in an Orange, SH2 or TS2). But for now I'll just have fun with it, shoot it, periodically try to fix the FTFs. Without stressing about it, without hanging on the edge of my seat for the next range trip to finally see if I fixed it.

Yes, investigate the slide stop. That's a known issue, but it doesn't effect every gun. Definitely be aware it exists, look for it and keep checking for it.

As the slide stop is a spare part and is compatible with most CZ75s, I don't worry about tinkering with it, since even if I have to get one spare, I can use it in other CZs (that I'll most certainly have). Additionally, as I have the TS2 base model, I may even go for one with the gas pedal. Definitely something to check, I'll try to investigate before the range trip, maybe I'll be able to see if that's the issue at home.

Yes, clean the mags. Clean the gun. Wash your hands. Clean with fresh lubricant is a good thing.

Done and I will continue to do so. I'm still kind of a novice, I have my gun license (Europe, you utter hellhole for gun enthusiasts) for almost a year now and I actually neglected the mags. I always thought to myself: "how can a magazine cause a malfunction". But now (even if it turns out it's not the mags) I will take good care of all of my magazines.

• And then go shoot. Lots. Let your gun get fully "broken in". Then as you shoot, you can add one option back each month.

• One FTF is not the end of the world. It's why we practice clearing the gun.

That's probably a moderate, low cost, low stress solution.

Yes. After I read your previous answer this is what immediately came to me. It's like I was stuck in a loop that was causing me to think that "I JUST HAVE TO HAVE THIS DONE AND I WANT IT NOW". This caused me a lot of stress, I spent a lot of money on new springs, deliveries etc. But thinking about this now, I should just take a chill pill, go out, have fun with the gun and incrementally try new things. It may be just like you said, maybe something will "loosen up" after I shoot more rounds through the gun. Granted, I don't think that a gun for like $1300-$1400 should require this from me. But overall I take it all positively, during this period (and the time to come) I learned so much about CZs and guns in general.

So, summing up, next range trip is just a test of the newly cleaned mags + maybe the slide stop thing. If it still doesn't work, factory configuration (recoil spring) it is. I will be reporting back (if something works or even if it doesn't ), because maybe there's someone having the same/similar issue and they could use all the knowledge and advice in this thread.

[timmy75]

@dabljues
Can you confirm that ammo you are using is 100% fully functional in other pistol(s)?
I have 2 boxes of czech factory 124 fmj ammo, which will pass 3 different case gauge tests, 6 different barrel plunk tests, but also will cause FTF jams in all of them.

[dabljues]

Can you confirm that ammo you are using is 100% fully functional in other pistol(s)?

I'm using the S&B 124gr FMJ ammo. The TS2 wasn't my first handgun, before I was using it in my Sig Sauer P320 M17, ran some rounds through my CZ P-07. It was not even close to the amount I shot through the TS2 (as it's the most pleasurable gun to shoot). So technically, no, I didn't have those issues there. But I didn't shoot that many rounds to be certain in the first place.

So, I cannot really confirm that, but now as I'm shooting the M17 periodically (maybe 30-50 rounds each range trip), I had no issues.

[dabljues]

I just thought of another thing that I think I will try out the next time.

For all my guns, I use an oil. Tried grease a while back for some particular places but I decided not to. Especially, after one time that I went to the range and put 8lb recoil spring in the TS2 when the barrel and the slide rails were greased. Failure to feed each time. The thing that made me try the grease in the first place was: it stayed there. So if I clean and lube my gun today and go to the range week later - the grease is still here. However, in case of some thinner oils, they tend to leave the gun pretty quickly when it's in the safe. So, after I put the grease aside, I started looking for a thicker oil, found it and started using it.

I bought the gun in November 2022. Now it's March. That means (in my country), that it's still cold, like 30-40F. Especially, as I visit the range in the evening. So for the entire period that I had this gun, I was shooting in on cold weather. Cold weather + thick oil equals gumming up. In my other guns it could be just fine because of higher tolerances. But the TS2 is made quite tight. I was lurking the internet for the CZ TS2 Orange content (it's on my shopping list) and actually found a guy that complained about FTFs in Shadow 2 Orange. He used grease. After he switched to a thin oil, the issue went away. Granted, it was grease, not oil, but the oil I use is kinda thick.

So, my thinking is, after I clean the gun this time, I can just use a thinner oil (in spray form) that I have lying around. I don't know if it makes sense, maybe it doesn't, but as it doesn't cost me anything, I think it's worth a try. I kinda assume that this is not a silver bullet, just another thing that could make the action smoother, like polishing the feed ramp that seemingly helped a bit. But this is just a small addition to the more important thing, like you mentioned, @Wobbly, which is checking the ammo that malfunctions - if it does.