CZ TS2 Failure to Feed

[dabljues]

Hey.

I've bought CZ TS2 (the base version, silver grips in Europe) a couple months ago. Great shooter, excellent trigger, best pistol in my safe by far.

However, I've had some issues with it, mainly two:

- trigger sometimes not resetting
  - fixed that wth screwing in the overtravel screw
- failures to feed (like half an inch of gap to full lockup, I have to hit the slide from the back to chamber the round)

Now the second issue is far more annoying.

It's been like that for me even when I didn't change anything. So when the gun was not modified, it sometimes happened. I'd say like a couple of times per 100 rounds. I then bought an upgrade kit which included some springs, one of which was an 8lb recoil spring. After I put that in, each round failed to chamber. So I thought - yeah, it's probably the recoil spring. I asked CZ what the stock spring weights are and I got an answer:

Thank you for your message.

Out of the factory, this gun comes with a 13 lb recoil spring, main spring is then 16 lb.

So I bought a set of recoil springs ranging from 10lb to 14lb. Mostly tried 11, 12 and 13. And basically, none of them solved the issue. I mean after removing the 8lb spring and using those stronger ones, the failures to feed happen from time to time, not each round, but still.

What I also did was:

• I polished the slide rails
• I polished the the external hammer part
• I polished the the lip that the hammer rides on during the racking
• I cleaned the mags + I changed the spring in one of them

I tried to search for posts describing the same issue and people were also suggesting the recoil spring change, but I don't see that it did anything for me.

I have one other idea (besides thoroughly cleaning the extractor now, but I don't think that's the issue - it was squeky clean on a new gun and the issue was still here) - hammer spring. I know, I know, you select a hammer spring for reliable igniton, but bear with me. I obviously know that lighter recoil spring means that the slide is easier to rack. But during firing, or when racking with a hammer down - the hammer spring also acts as a counter force. For example, I am able to rack the slide with the hammer cocked, no problem. If the hammer is down, it's harder but still easy to do. Now, when checking the reset (so hammer down, trigger pressed), the slide is much much harder to rack. To the point when I actually get it rearward I can see that if I let the trigger go forward, then I still have like a couple of mms left to move the slide rearward.

So my idea is: during firing the hammer/hammer spring slows down the slide, so it doesn't go fully rearward therefore having less force to chamber the round. I have a couple of main spring for TS2 lying around + an extender firing pin to try, but I don't know if I'm wrong or not. Especially since sometimes the failure to feed happens when chambering the first round by me manually (by dropping the slide). But that's really rare. What do you think guys? What could be the issue?

P.S I'm shooting 9mm factory loads ranging from 115grain-140grain (but mostly 124grain), FMJ, usually S&B. And I always clean my gun thoroughly + it's always lubed.
P.S2 Do you also have this difficulty when trying to rack the slide with hammer down + trigger pressed on your TS2s/TSOs?

[Wobbly]

Look FIRST at the ammo !!

• If handloaded, then review the Stickie in the Handloading & Ammo sub-forum on Reloading for the CZ.

• If factory, then even some previously reputable brands have been having LOTS of trouble lately. Fiocchi and SIG are among those known to have physical sizing and chambering issues, but that is not a full list. Review the Stickie on buying factory ammo.

You run the VERY REAL risk of having an OOB accident if you fail to do this. This can and will most proabably end in both harm to the shooter and damage to the pistol.

[Wobbly]

I just left this message on the CGW forum...

Quote from: schutz85C on January 28, 2023, 09:51:07 PM
Could have even been random bum factory loads.

Exactly. What continues to be reported on a weekly basis on the Ammo & Handloading forum is very poorly made ammo. Most of this is cartridges and cases formed so poorly that they fail to physically fit the gun's chamber.

But it also applies equally to what cannot be seen... large variations in the amount of powder inside the cartridge and poorly made primers.

Ammo makers are not fools. If they see that they can sell twice (or six times) the amount of ammo this month simply by rushing ammo production, then they are going to do it.

[dabljues]

Okay, I'm reading it right now.

I mean, you could be right, it could be the ammo. Example from last week - most of the time S&B ammo was chambering just fine, but the limit.cz ammo had failures to feed even when chambering the first round by me, by letting the slide go. Granted, it also happened to S&B ammo in the past. So it could be about the shape and/or its inconsistencies.

However, in here https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049, I can see that S&B 124gr (which I mostly shoot) should be good. Hmm.

Edit:

But then, let's say it's the ammo, if I don't really have that much ammo available to check out (I'm not really ready to reload yet to be honest), is there a way for making it work by changing something out in the gun itself?

[Wobbly]

However, in here https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049, I can see that S&B 124gr (which I mostly shoot) should be good. Hmm

And those are the operative words... SHOULDS BE.

Look, 1) we have a huge European war going on, and 2) Americans are buying ammo non-stop like there's a Democrat in the White House or something. We're emerging from COVID and factories have all-new employees. Not only are the ammo factories running non-stop 24/7, they are doing it with new employees who are under-trained in QC techniques.

You MUST take your barrel with you when you go ammo shopping !! Or, you must "Plunk & Spin" test 7 or 8 rounds from every pack of 50 rounds.

The reported S&B ammo was good. When things calm down, it will most proabably be good again.

[dabljues]

Yep, I'm definitely gonna try "Plunk & Spin", seems like a good and easy thing to do.

I kinda hope it's the ammo, because from what I've seen there's not much else for me to try with the gun itself (aside from my definitely-not-stupid idea of changing out the hammer spring).

Anyway, thanks for your help, I definitely have some reading to do on this forum!

[tdogg]

Dab,

I'm going to assume your ammo is good but you should inspect it as Wobbly has shared.

First things I'd look at are:

1.  Magazine tuning.  Have you pulled the magazines apart and cleaned/waxed them inside and out?  Make sure the feed lips don't have any burrs and are straight/parallel.  Take calipers and verify the magazine bodies are the same dimension top to bottom.  One way to tell if they need to be tuned is if when fully loaded they hang up upon insertion into the frame.  There will be binding on the grip panels (most likely).  You need to make sure the follower is applying enough upward pressure on the cartridge to ensure proper feeding.  Are there gaps between the top cartridge and the cartridge below when fully loaded? If yes to any of these questions, then you need to tune the magazine body a little.  This mainly affects nose dive failures on the feedramp.

2.   Remove, clean, and inspect the extractor.  Sometimes buildup could prevent the cartridge from sliding up the breach face and under the extractor and thus hanging up the feeding.  Make sure there isn't any damage/burrs that would bind up feeding under the extractor hook.  Clean thoroughly and put a drop of oil on the extractor spring, leave the rest dry.

3. Polish the feedramp and make sure there aren't any burrs.  I've found that somehow I damaged the edge of my feedramp on my TSO.  It took stoning and polishing to remove.

4.  Clean and inspect the gun.  Are you properly lubricating the slide rails?  CZ's like to run wet.

Cheers,
Toby

[dabljues]

Hey, thanks for the input!

1. I disassembled all the mags and cleaned them + changed the spring in one of them to check if it's maybe a bad spring - that didn't work

2. This is what I was missing earlier. I noticed that when cleaning my handguns (I'm a gun owner since only 6 months, don't get me started on gun laws in Europe ), I forget the extractor. And you're right, there was a lot of gunk behind it. I only assumed that since I had this gun new and FTFs still happened, then maybe it isn't it. However, maybe back then it was something else (I didn't have stuff polished + my cleaning/lubing skills were far worse). I cleaned it thoroughly, checked on some snap caps and it felt good, I'm taking the gun out to the range on Wednesday to verify that it was the culprit.

3. Already done. I used multiple grits, didn't go for the looks but for the feel and it feels really smooth.

4. Also done. I'm a gun cleaning maniac - I always spend too much time and I'd even say I lube too much, though I'm starting to get a hang of it. As for this particular model - 3 drops on slide rails (each side), something on the barrel (and smear it all over it), a light coat on the "hammer bearing" (I don't know the exact name, I mean the "rail" that pushes the hammer back when the slide is racked), a drop on the trigger spring and the sear spring. But like a month ago I was doing pretty much the same but using much more oil (especially on the rails)

To be honest, I still can't shake this feeling about the gun having an issue. Like I explained in the original post, I don't know if thats normal, but it's much more difficult to rack the slide when pressing the trigger than when the hammer is down (I mean not cocked/resting on the slide). And there's one more thing. I don't own any other "race guns" (I have an M17, a P-07 among other things), but the TS2 sometimes feels strange when shooting. At the beginning I was thinking that maybe my grip was the problem, but I don't know. Let me explain: when firing I sometimes feel like the slide is not going forward as it supposed to. Like in other guns (or similar CZs that I see on the internet), the forward movement is kinda snappy, quick. Here I feel like I counteract the recoil impulse, the muzzle starts to go down (to the position from before the firing), but the slide is "lagging behind it". Like it feels that I'm almost ready to shoot again, I'll soon see the sights align, but the gun is still not closed, I'm still waiting for the slide. It's a tiny tiny tiny time frame, but still. And that's what made me think (and still kinda does) that maybe there's something wrong with the springs etc. (not ammo)

[tdogg]

Without the barrel and recoil spring installed does the slide travel smoothly through the whole travel on the frame?  How about with the barrel but no recoil spring?  (hammer cocked on both)

Does the barrel drop into the slide without issue?  There is no binding when sliding up into the locked position?  This is the only thing I can think of that would slow the return to battery (lockup).  If the barrel peanut isn't cut properly it could cause issues. 

It sounds more and more like the dirty extractor may be the culprit assuming all the above check out.

Is it difficult to cock the hammer while holding the trigger vs not holding the trigger?  If the hammer is noticeably difficult to cock (than say your P07) you could have a mainspring strut that has some burrs on it.  There shouldn't be any difference between holding the trigger vs not.  This wouldn't explain the slow return to battery (lockup). 

Obviously perform all these checks with no ammo anywhere nearby.  Verify the gun is clear!

Cheers,
Toby

[dabljues]

I feel like it travels smoothly no matter what. When I cleaned the gun yesterday, I checked the function - racked the slide multiple times etc. It's buttery smooth. I even polished some rough spots on the frame rails.

The barrel to slide fit is tight, but I assume that's the whole point, that's what we love about CZs

Is it difficult to cock the hammer while holding the trigger vs not holding the trigger?  If the hammer is noticeably difficult to cock (than say your P07) you could have a mainspring strut that has some burrs on it.  There shouldn't be any difference between holding the trigger vs not.  This wouldn't explain the slow return to battery (lockup).

I meant the racking the slide, not cocking the hammer (I guess the two are connected when doing this with slide ). 3 scenarios here:

- racking the slide when the hammer is cocked - easy
- racking the slide when the hammer is not cocked - more difficult (because I have to overcome the hammer spring), but still nothing out of the ordinary
- racking the slide when the hammer is not cocked + I press the trigger - then I have to use more force than in scenario two (only noticeable when going slowly)

The stuff I was talking about is the last scenario. In this scenario, even after I overcome the hammer and the slide is back, I still can pull it a little further by releasing the trigger (letting it go forward) - like it releases the tension (I can still do that with trigger pressed, but with more force). I mean I get it, trigger affects the hammer, but for example when I first got this gun I wanted to test its reset - so I pull the trigger on the cocked hammer -> hammer falls -> I keep the trigger pressed -> I try to rack the slide and let the gun cycle so I can see the reset. And at first it was so stiff I thought maybe this gun works like this - I mean I can't do that on that gun. Or maybe all SAO guns (don't have any other) do. But seeing as guys do this on YT (on TS2) I figured that this is not the case, so I just used more force. And it worked. But I was just surprised that it required more force than the scenarion no. 2 (when pulling slowly, when racking quickly, the difference it unnoticeable).

And in my head I thought to myself - hey, if I encounter this resistance here, then maybe when I fire the gun (keeping the trigger pressed until the gun fully cycles), maybe that's what's stopping the slide's move rearward/forward (slowing it down).

This "difference of force needed" between scenarios 2 and 3 is not really noticeable when racking the slide fast. It's noticeable when I try to do it slowly - by just pulling. If the hammer is cocked, I feel the resistance of the hammer to the slide (like the pull/rack rearward has two stages - before encountering the hammer and after it slides over it). But I guess that's normal.

And as for the slide going forward - there's nothing stopping it. Like it slides really smoothly, even if I ride it with my palm. The only "bump" is when it goes over the hammer. But the lockup has no hangup at all. Not like in my other pistols (looking at you, Sig Sauer), when if I ride the slide forward, it makes the the lockup really clunky.

And I will definitely test the gun now that I thoroughly cleaned the extractor, you're right.

[tdogg]

I don't know why it would be different between pressing the trigger and not with respect to cocking the hammer.  The reason I wanted you to manually cock the hammer vs rack the slide is to isolate the action and eliminate any other variables.

If you could share some photos of the action we may be able to identify anything that looks odd/wrong?  A video with the slide off cocking the hammer may help as well. 

Otherwise, this may need to go back to CZ for inspection?  There shouldn't be any difference racking the slide with the trigger pulled or not. 

How many rounds have you fired?

Cheers,
Toby

[dabljues]

If you could share some photos of the action we may be able to identify anything that looks odd/wrong?  A video with the slide off cocking the hammer may help as well.

Great idea! Here you go: https://imgur.com/a/qAudwD2. I uploaded all to imgur, so: a) I wouldn't clutter this thread with big pictures and b) I wouldn't have to upload a video to YT or something separately.

I don't know if I photographed everything you'd need, I only field-stripped the pistol. Sorry for the quality of the photos too, I guess, I'm so bad at this. If you need something else, I'll provide.

The video is last. I don't know if people can see this, but yeah, hammer cocked - easy. Hammer not cocked - not so easy. Hammer cocked + trigger pressed - even harder. I do know that the uncocked hammer will have resistance, but I don't know if the hammer that is lying down (slide rides over it) should show much resistance. And that is the case when I keep the trigger pressed, I think.

Otherwise, this may need to go back to CZ for inspection?  There shouldn't be any difference racking the slide with the trigger pulled or not.

Unfortunately, it is not so simple for us here in the god-forsaken land of Europe. It's possible, but people tend to avoid that as much as possible.

How many rounds have you fired?

I guess something north of 1000 at this point. Cleaned and lubed pretty much after each range trip (sometimes two in a row without cleaning)

[tdogg]

Remote troubleshooting is difficult.  It appears to be look and operate normally.  I'm guessing you are feeling differences because your grip is different depending on whether you are pulling the trigger or not. 

If you manually cock the hammer without the slide on, does it feel different with or without the trigger pulled?

Cheers,
Toby

[dabljues]

If you manually cock the hammer without the slide on, does it feel different with or without the trigger pulled?

I tried it both with and without the slide on. I don't really feel the difference. Aside from the fact that when I pull the hammer without pressing the trigger, there are "phases" - I feel going through the "half cock" and then through the "full cock" (there's a tiny little bit "overtravel" there). But as for the strength required - I don't think so (I tried with multiple fingers to eliminate the grip as a variable). I mean maaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybeeee a tiny little hair difference, but it may as well be psychological (so none at all) - nothing like "oh wow, now I need to gather all my strength to do it".

[tdogg]

Yeah, I'm guessing it is operating normally.

Let us know how the next range visit goes.  Hopefully it is not slow to return to battery anymore.

Cheers,
Toby