First Handgun Purchase: Questions About the 97

[Will_Power]

Hi guys,

First post here, but have been doing a bit of lurking the past month or so.

I'm in the process of saving up my pennies for my first handgun purchase to serve double duty as home defense and a trail sidearm.

At this time, I'm seriously considering the 97, after being dissuaded out of the SP-01 camp with the realization that 9mm just won't cut it as a backpacking gun against cougars and black bear (no grizzlies or moose here in Oregon, USA).

However, doing some reading up on the gun has me hesitant. The hollowpoint ammo issue has been in play for years now, is that still the case for new guns?

If so, can someone give me an overview of what needs to be done to the 97's to get them functioning reliably with the JHPs that I'd like to load up for self defense purposes?

From what I've read, the following seem to be the standing recommendations I've seen. Can you experienced types help shed some light on what these all mean to a handgun neophyte like myself?

1. Polish the feed ramp. Seems simple enough in theory - some hollowpoint bullets are too wide or the existing feed ramp from the magazine? What does polishing do? Make the surface slicker so the ammo feeds? Not sure I understand the nuances there.

2. Change magazines. I seem to remember reading something to that effect somewhere - that the EAA Witness 45 mags work with the 97 and work better?

3. Replace the recoil spring with a Wolff. Dumb question here, but how does a soft recoil spring negatively affect the pistol? Feed issues?

4. Replace guide rod: Swap out the plastic one with a steel one. Same part as the CZ 75's?

I really, really want to like this gun, but I'm not going to invest hundreds of dollars on a platform that I don't feel I can trust if something goes bump in the night or bad out in the boondocks. And that's too bad, as the CZ's fit my hand like a glove.

So, can you guys give me some feedback on these issues? How much does all this post-purchase tuning cost, generally? Do I have to ship it to CZ-USA or can a local gunsmith familiar with CZ's handle this stuff? Or, are some of these things a matter of breaking down the pistol and replacing the parts that can be done by a schmuck like myself?

[blh]

I own and like my 97b, but I don't think I would pick one for a main home defense or trail gun.  You don't need to touch the guide rod, sure its plastic but it doesn't matter.  People are use to seeing steel ones and they are afraid of a plastic part there so they change them out.  The problem with hollow points from what I've seen is that the larger ones aren't raised up enough to fully land the bullet in the feed ramp, personally I don't run hollow points in mine, they don't feed worth a bleep.  

In my opinion, the 97b is a fantastic gun, just not one I would use for the purpose you want it for.  I would be very inclined to pick up a Glock in 10mm, if you are set on a .45ACP round, something like the M&P 45 or the HK 45

[jman2311]

Have you checked out the energy transfer with 9mm frangible ammo.  Pretty impressive.  the SP-01 Phantom would play the role of hd/sd or trail gun nicely.  Very high mag cap and lightweight along with all the other things that make CZ great.  I have heard the trigger takes some breaking in as it is stagey in DA mode.  I have tried it and wasn't a huge deal, to each his own though.  Wholesalehunter.com has them at $490 right now.  Being a trail gun i would like the ability to carry more than 20 rounds with me and a lighter weighted package would be of use to me.  just my $.02.

[bang bang]

However, doing some reading up on the gun has me hesitant. The hollowpoint ammo issue has been in play for years now, is that still the case for new guns?

you have to realize that some guns were made to eat certain ammo shape/style/weights.  when you take a platform and modify it to eat something else, you may not end up with the best solution.  the 1911 was designed to eat FMJ/BALL.  now most of not all mfg of 1911 try to make them eat JHPs and such, but the ammo industry changes faster then the gun industry.  the Sig P220 was afaik the ONLY gun designed to eat 45acp JHP from the ground up.  im not sure about the CZ.

If you want a CZ97, then YOU will have to do some testing with varous ammo to determine what it likes to eat.  there isnt alot of short cuts especially if its going to be your HD/SD gun.

there were/are? some issues with the mag catch? on the 97 that caused the mag to sit lower, thus having feeding issues.  im not sure if CZ has fixed the mag catch issue or if its a combo of mag and mag catch.  the EAA 45 mags will work in the CZ97, but have a gap at the base.

If so, can someone give me an overview of what needs to be done to the 97's to get them functioning reliably with the JHPs that I'd like to load up for self defense purposes?

you should rethink or inquire as to what ammo you want to use for carry in the woods.  Humans are soft skiined animals, whereas others are not.  You want more penetration in your ammo then just HPs.  although HPs may do the job, i would want something with more penetration.

1. Polish the feed ramp. Seems simple enough in theory - some hollowpoint bullets are too wide or the existing feed ramp from the magazine? What does polishing do? Make the surface slicker so the ammo feeds? Not sure I understand the nuances there.

polishing makes it easier for the nose of the bullet to slide up the ramp and into the chamber.  sometimes there are lips/burrs or changes in profile that may cause feeding issues.  a good gun smith will be albe to recoginize and fix that.

2. Change magazines. I seem to remember reading something to that effect somewhere - that the EAA Witness 45 mags work with the 97 and work better?

yes EAA mags do fit/work..  but depending on whats wrong, it may not make a dif.

3. Replace the recoil spring with a Wolff. Dumb question here, but how does a soft recoil spring negatively affect the pistol? Feed issues?

Depending on what type of ammo you plan on using.  If you want to shoot alot of hot ammo, then maybe a heavier spring will help.  everthing in a gun works togeather and is tuned to work with certain ammo weights/velocity.  if you change one,it maynot like the other end.   If you install a lighter (softer) spring, and you shoot hoter ammo, you may endup causing more wear/tear to the gun.

4. Replace guide rod: Swap out the plastic one with a steel one. Same part as the CZ 75's?

if you dont like the plastic one change it. its your $$$.

some general comments.

since youre a noob.  you can worry and fret able all sorts of things and spend $$$ on changes to the gun.  You havent even shot one, so do you really know whats going to happen?  Not really.  so why not just buy it and go shoot it before you decide on any change.  if/when you come across any issues then deal with them.  its all "what ifs" at this point.  you can do "what if" until youre dead w/no gun in your hands too.

spend more time shooting and trying, then see what changes if any are needed.

there are alot of people that are traditionalsts.  they dont like or belive in change.  IE plastic in guns is a sin and should be shot or put to death. Or MIM parts are bad and dont hold up.  It all depends on the sit.   there was a time when plastic on cars was considered "cheap" but look at your car now.  

also, there is alot of mis information on the www.  just because its in print doesnt mean is true.  even what i have typed here can be wrong.  If you want to play with guns, find a good trustworthy gun smith and go pick his brains.  chances are, he will see alot of gun returns or broke ones and you can get an idea on whats what.  But dont forget that anyone can make a lemon.  sometimes the person that gets one of those lemons can squeel so loud that you woudlnt want to have one next to you.  but that doesnt mean ALL of them are lemons.

if you want idiot proof, rethink or go buy a Glock.  many people think they are "perfect" or "idiot proof".   when i see stuff like that i think of Murphys laws.   Put/spend more time & $$ into education/training youself.  The gun is just a tool.  if you suck, dont expect the gun to make up the difference.

unless you know whats wrong, you can spend alot of $$ trying to figure it out.  you can take the shotgun approach and change many things, but in the end you may not know what the root cause was.  swappiing parts could be done, but again, if you dont know whats wrong, you are just chasing shadows.  also, being a noob, its better to have someone know whats going on do the repair/mods.  at least then if they screw it up, you may have some recouse.  if you do it, its your fault and you eat it.

[schmeky]

if you are set on a .45ACP round, something like the M&P 45 or the HK 45

I have to agree with this.  Everyone knows I love the 97, but if your going to pack a big gun around, something that will eat anything, and be anvil reliable, think HK, Glock, and M&P, in that order, and yes, I've owned all 3.

I no longer have the Glock nor the M&P, but both are excellent, the HK is just on a different level, IMHO.

[Gary1911A1]

The 97 is a big pistol with a long DA reach so I hope your hands are on the large size. Frankly I think the Witness, one of the older ones with the square shape slides, are a better CZ type pistol in .45.

[FirstSite]

I don't see a big deal with hollow points for SD .. nothing wrong with a round or truncated nose to
get good penetration and knock down something big.

Also you can't beat a good solid Ruger Revolver for a trail gun... always goes bang and with 45 Colt
loaded up properly you gonna knock down most anything you hit.

I did buy a 97 last month and the feed ramp already had a high polish on it.
Both mags function fine.
I see nothing wrong with the plastic guide rod.
I have ordered other springs to match to other loads .. if needed.

Have fun .. FirstSite

[CZ75BRocks]

I can't recall who said it, it might be a Cooperism, but I like " a 9mm HP might expand, but a 45FMJ never shrinks.  In 45LC I have killed many a Hog with 10gr Unique and a 255 Keith Style SWC.  It works like a sledgehammer.  My CZ97b, heretofore known as "wish my hands were larger  " Loved 230gr FMJ like a pickle seeder.  As accurate as my Wilson's and Ed Brown's.

[jman2311]

one option with the cz97 for defense is to carry frangible ammo.  i am a huge proponent of the frangible round as it displaces all of its energy into its intended target  and best of all it feeds like a fmj. 

[Will_Power]

Thanks for the input so far, everyone.

With the feedback thus far, I'm really put off with the 97. That's unfortunate, as I was really wanting to go for it due to its combination of the price and the way it fits in my hand. But given the near-universally negative replies I'm getting, I have to admit to being really rather bumfuzzled.

Is the 97 only worthwhile as a big range toy, then?

I may be a handgun noob, so forgive me if I'm missing some fine nuance here or am just kicking a hornet's nest, but what's the point then in owning a firearm that you can't trust? Sure, I can worry myself and ask what if till I'm blue in the face, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I'm just gonna plop down hundreds and hundreds of dollars on a sidearm, a holster for when I'm out in the sticks, and then various makes of ammo to sort through only to just cross my fingers, hope for the best, and spend that kind of money on a weapon that may or may not work and has a questionable reputation. I need a tool that I can rely on, not a toy that can break or not work as an accepted matter of course.

Frankly, that's unacceptable to me, and is particularly bothersome given the laudable reputation that the 75 has.

Regarding other guns as possible options, I am considering a Ruger GP100 as well, but would prefer a semiauto pistol. Regarding them, however, I am set on steel frames, which rules out the H&Ks, M&Ps, and Glocks. The Sigs are nice guns, but are out of my price range at this point and don't fit my hand as well as the CZs.

Unless I'm mistaken (and I very well might be), that leaves me with the CZ knockoffs. I've heard too much about their shoddy quality for me to really consider them, barring the EAA Witness Match level gun, but to be honest, I find that gun completely hideous looking (how's that for a gay reason not to consider a firearm?).

As far as going back to the SP-01 camp, I have plenty of faith in a JHP 9mm to handle 2 legged critters, just not the stray mountain lion (or much less likely black bear). Touching on the ammo side of things, for the .45 I'd be taking a FMJ - likely something heavy duty such as the Buffalo Bore products I've seen mentioned - into the woods. But at home in my apartment complex, over-penetration is a real worry, and loading up with a FMJ worries me greatly.

So, having a gun that I can't rely on to feed JHPs probably won't work. However, that begs the question to me: what in the world do all these 1911 guys use for home/self defense? The frangible ammo stuff is something I'm not familiar with, and will go do some reading on.

Thanks again, fellas.

[CZ_Shooter61]

I have a new 97BD that I havent shot yet because of the weather. If it doesnt function properly it will be gone like a fart in the wind.
This 97BD is my first CZ.

[blh]

There are guns, and there are guns I will trust my life to.  For guns that I will trust my life to, only the most dependable will do, its my life and I may only get one shot at it.  I've paid thousands of dollars for guns that only purpose in life is to be a precision paper puncher, you pay for what you want to do with it.  There is a reason I carry a Glock.  

Why do you want an all steel gun?  Have you ever actually looked at the polymer frame guns?  Look at this, Todd Green did an endurance test with the HK45, 50,000 rounds and one part failure.  How many .45's could actually do this, factory or highly modified, and still work great?  

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

Another article on the HK45
http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers

[schmeky]

With the right bullet, the 97 will hang with anything reliability wise, but it won't feed any and every HP.  I agree with blh, if you want a gun that is relaible with just about any type of ammo, I have found the HK USP 45 has no equal, followed by the Glock.

Plus the HK USP holds 12 rounds in the mag, can shoot .45 Super on a limited basis (now there's a critter gitter'). 

[bang bang]

Thanks for the input so far, everyone.

With the feedback thus far, I'm really put off with the 97. That's unfortunate, as I was really wanting to go for it due to its combination of the price and the way it fits in my hand. But given the near-universally negative replies I'm getting, I have to admit to being really rather bumfuzzled.

Is the 97 only worthwhile as a big range toy, then?

I may be a handgun noob, so forgive me if I'm missing some fine nuance here or am just kicking a hornet's nest, but what's the point then in owning a firearm that you can't trust? Sure, I can worry myself and ask what if till I'm blue in the face, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I'm just gonna plop down hundreds and hundreds of dollars on a sidearm, a holster for when I'm out in the sticks, and then various makes of ammo to sort through only to just cross my fingers, hope for the best, and spend that kind of money on a weapon that may or may not work and has a questionable reputation. I need a tool that I can rely on, not a toy that can break or not work as an accepted matter of course.

Frankly, that's unacceptable to me, and is particularly bothersome given the laudable reputation that the 75 has.

Regarding other guns as possible options, I am considering a Ruger GP100 as well, but would prefer a semiauto pistol. Regarding them, however, I am set on steel frames, which rules out the H&Ks, M&Ps, and Glocks. The Sigs are nice guns, but are out of my price range at this point and don't fit my hand as well as the CZs.

Unless I'm mistaken (and I very well might be), that leaves me with the CZ knockoffs. I've heard too much about their shoddy quality for me to really consider them, barring the EAA Witness Match level gun, but to be honest, I find that gun completely hideous looking (how's that for a gay reason not to consider a firearm?).

As far as going back to the SP-01 camp, I have plenty of faith in a JHP 9mm to handle 2 legged critters, just not the stray mountain lion (or much less likely black bear). Touching on the ammo side of things, for the .45 I'd be taking a FMJ - likely something heavy duty such as the Buffalo Bore products I've seen mentioned - into the woods. But at home in my apartment complex, over-penetration is a real worry, and loading up with a FMJ worries me greatly.

So, having a gun that I can't rely on to feed JHPs probably won't work. However, that begs the question to me: what in the world do all these 1911 guys use for home/self defense? The frangible ammo stuff is something I'm not familiar with, and will go do some reading on.

Thanks again, fellas.

you assume CZ75 = CZ 97.  Does Corvette = Blazer?

So far the only think you know truely know about it, is that it fits you hand.  Granted, that can make a difference in how well you shoot.  also, all of your research has been on the web  by OPO/OPE.   Its great, but sometime you have to get dirty.  Have you thought about going out and trying to rent some 45s or whatever caliber you like.  Speaking of 45s, have you priced 45 acp ammo?  can you afford to feed a 45?   Yes its expensive to rent guns, but buying and feeding isnt cheap either.   Also, you say you want all steel guns.  again, this is probably from the www.  Keep your mind open to the possiblilities.   People adapt, you can to if youre open.   Also, i dont know about you, but having a couple pounds strapped to my side on a long hike isnt something i would want.  if youre on a 1 hour jaunt, it probably want make a dif, buf if youre doing it for days, it will take its toll. 

if youre going to buy any gun for SD/HD, you better be willing to do some testing BEFORE you need it.  and that includes spending some $$$ to do so.   also, as i mentioned before, you better know how to clear any malfunctions BEFORE they happen and be able to do it in your sleep.

i own alot of guns as do others here and other places.  what you want it a gun may not be the same.  as Shooter61 has stated, if it doesnt function properly, its gone.  some people feel the same, some are more tolerable and have alot more time with guns to know that sometimes stuff happens.    I started out with buying 22LR guns so i learned early on that RFs sometimes dont make good autoloaders.  Does that mean i wont enjoy the ones that arent perfect, no.  i like them all.  you want what you want.   

while spending your time researching what you want, try to spend some time renting/borrowing and shooting.  you maybe enlightened.

[CZ75BRocks]

Bang Bang:  I tend to agree with you.  I bought a 97B based on my Search Fu.  It looked great, I was OK with FMJ, and I liked all steel guns.  I found a used one.  I was very happy with the purchase.  I took it out and it was a laser!  Then, I got to know it.  I was going to carry it instead of my Non Railed TRP.  My thought was 2 more rounds, close to the same weight, actually 2oz lighter.  Then I started realizing that it wasn't a sure fit in my hand out of the holster.  This was the hint.  I chose a gun that was just ever so slightly too heavy. My Dad use to say "decide in haste, repent in leisure".  The 97B was a dream to shoot, extremely accurate, and it looked good.  But, in my case when you start adding up the "close, but not quite" issues I never should have bought one.  A poor decision on my part, not a design flaw with the gun!!  Life is a collection of compromises.  Sometimes the compromise we think we can make doesn't bear so well in the daylight of application.  IMO