Author Topic: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness  (Read 98950 times)

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Offline jwc007

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2016, 01:42:27 PM »
Without the Sprinco Unit, the 22 lb Wolff Recoil Spring should be all that you need, but I don't think you're going to enjoy shooting it.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline EAG8999

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2016, 02:16:54 PM »
Okay, thanks for the reply. At some point I may get the sprinco unit if I have the spare cash. I'm not really going to shoot the gun in .45 super too often, besides testing it. I'm just using Underwoods 255gr hard cast .45 super as a woods bear defense round when I'm hiking/camping.

Offline jwc007

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2016, 05:27:28 PM »
I'm just using Underwoods 255gr hard cast .45 super as a woods bear defense round when I'm hiking/camping.

I have loaded Remington Surplus 185 grain JHP's in Starline .45 Super Brass for Bear, but my first line of defense is my 12 gauge Remington 1100 loaded with Slugs using a smoothbore Slug Barrel with Rifle Sights.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline Phil1979

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2016, 12:57:41 AM »
Not quite an EAA Witness, but I have a few months old Sarsilmaz K2 .45 that I am planning to convert to .45 Super.

I bought a 10mm Sprinco kit that looks like it should work, and also an 18lb. Witness recoil spring. Both together seem way too long to fit. Looks like I'll have to cut the recoil spring down quite a bit.

Since cutting the spring increases the lb rating, I may just cut the original 16lb recoil spring down.

Thanks for all the great info on springs!

Offline bobclevenger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2016, 04:53:24 AM »
FWIW, my experience with springs in Witnesses.

I am talking about both 10mm and a .38 Super semi-compacts. I only use full-power 10mm and I use 9x23 Winchester ammo in the .38 Super.

The factory springs worked pretty well, but they do allow the slide to hit the frame pretty hard. This can't be good for slide life. Plastic Shock-Buffs for CZ-75 work, but they don't last long at all. After 100 rounds they are pretty well chewed up. Heavier recoil springs (up to 20 lbs.) helped, but they make racking the slide difficult.

I got a Springco recoil reducer and it worked, but the slide short-stroked a little making the slide fail to lock back after the last round and the slide was also VERY difficult to rack all the way back. I could not even rack it back far enough to lock it back with the slide lock.

Recently I bought the DPM mechanical recoil reducer and I am quite pleased with it so far. It keeps the slide from hammering the frame and yet it is easily racked by hand and the slide locks back after the last round. So far there have been no failures that can be even remotely tied to the DPM system (I did have an extractor hook break off -- since been repaired). Yeah, there is probably a bit of easing of felt recoil, but in spite of the name recoil reduction is not what I got this for. It protects the slide and frame from the recoil of high-power rounds while still keeping the pistol user-friendly.

Has anyone else here used the DPM system on their CZ-75 clone?
Bob

Offline NineN10mm

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2016, 04:22:44 PM »
I've a Witness Elite Match 10mm.

It has a steel recoil rod, with smaller radius in middle of rod, and I use 20lbs spring on it.  With my reload, on the HOT side around 750 ft-lbs energy based on my Glock 20, the case would kick out at 4 o'clock direction..... some 50ft away !!!

These loads have primers that are starting to "flatten" but not severely flatten.  I've done extensive experiment to find where the extreme loads would be and back off a significant way to accommodate more than reloading uncertainty (accurate metering of powder, in my case LongShot).  The good news is that the Witness Elite Match 10mm barrel is well supported, whereas the Glock 20 stock barrel does not (had to use KKM barrel just so that I can shoot hard loads).  No ding on the frame as yet.  I'm hoping Henning's coned rod would also help spread out the pressure.

But recoil felt by me is seemingly far less than with Glock 20.
And yes.  The slide is hard to rock back, but that's ok as long as it locks on the last round and as long as it loads the next round correctly.  For dry fire, you'd only need to rock the slide back just an inch or so.  Do some Weight lifting exercise if you have trouble.   :)

Combination recoil reducers are sexy and create higher far end resistance, but they are asking for too much dough.

Another spring, least talked about, is the torsional Trigger return spring which is similar to CZ-75 design.  I used CajunGunWork's Reduced Power Trigger Recoil Spring as a replacement for the stock spring here.  And it felt lighter.

Offline bobclevenger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2016, 11:57:37 PM »
I've a Witness Elite Match 10mm.

It has a steel recoil rod, with smaller radius in middle of rod, and I use 20lbs spring on it.  With my reload, on the HOT side around 750 ft-lbs energy based on my Glock 20, the case would kick out at 4 o'clock direction..... some 50ft away !!!

These loads have primers that are starting to "flatten" but not severely flatten.  I've done extensive experiment to find where the extreme loads would be and back off a significant way to accommodate more than reloading uncertainty (accurate metering of powder, in my case LongShot).  The good news is that the Witness Elite Match 10mm barrel is well supported, whereas the Glock 20 stock barrel does not (had to use KKM barrel just so that I can shoot hard loads).  No ding on the frame as yet.  I'm hoping Henning's coned rod would also help spread out the pressure.

But recoil felt by me is seemingly far less than with Glock 20.
And yes.  The slide is hard to rock back, but that's ok as long as it locks on the last round and as long as it loads the next round correctly.  For dry fire, you'd only need to rock the slide back just an inch or so.  Do some Weight lifting exercise if you have trouble.   :)

Combination recoil reducers are sexy and create higher far end resistance, but they are asking for too much dough.

Another spring, least talked about, is the torsional Trigger return spring which is similar to CZ-75 design.  I used CajunGunWork's Reduced Power Trigger Recoil Spring as a replacement for the stock spring here.  And it felt lighter.

OK Thanks. I guess this means that you haven't tried the DPM systems recoil spring and guide.

I have had a couple of cracked slides on Witnesses (.40S&W -- small frame and 10mm Compact) so I tend to want to ease the slide to frame contact without having to use light loads.
I am 73 years old. My hands are not going to get any stronger. The main problem is racking the slide far enough back to allow the manual slide lock to operate -- the RSO sometimes wants to see that. The slide has a rather small area to grip.
Yeah I know all about throwing brass into the next county -- particularly annoying when that brass is hard to get.

Funny thing that you should mention the cost. I think the same thing about the Witness Elite series of pistols. I guess we all see things differently.
Bob

Offline NineN10mm

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2016, 09:31:49 AM »

OK Thanks. I guess this means that you haven't tried the DPM systems recoil spring and guide.

I have had a couple of cracked slides on Witnesses (.40S&W -- small frame and 10mm Compact) so I tend to want to ease the slide to frame contact without having to use light loads.
I am 73 years old. My hands are not going to get any stronger. The main problem is racking the slide far enough back to allow the manual slide lock to operate -- the RSO sometimes wants to see that. The slide has a rather small area to grip.
Yeah I know all about throwing brass into the next county -- particularly annoying when that brass is hard to get.

Funny thing that you should mention the cost. I think the same thing about the Witness Elite series of pistols. I guess we all see things differently.
If I was you I'd do exactly as you did.  Different people have different situation, preferences thus different justification for what they do.

I tried a Sprinco on the G20 before, after many tries of different main springs, I still got stove pipes and misfeeds.  I think part of the equation was the hot loads.  So I get the idea that aftermarket recoil systems can't conceivably be so complete to account for the level of hot loads I use.  To spend over $100 on a spring system in the hope that it would work, may work, possibly work, to try out... is not an acceptable notion for me.  For others, it'd be ok, not that there's anything wrong with doing it.

Fwiw, my Witness Elite Match 10mm was $700.  I don't see that it's too expensive compared to a CZ or Glock with modifications.  The only mods in the Witness was springs, which is the topic here.

After some research on the Witness 10mm, I found that slide cracking was occurring around 2008-2010 on the most economical models of Witness (Wonder finish, etc.) where there was less reenforcing metal around the slide, perhaps due to less metal used to trim carry weight.  Reports of cracking ceased since then, which means either no more sales or mfgrs change made.  No report of high grades of Witness that cracked... that I can find.  My Witness gets to about 44 ounces, loaded.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 09:56:25 AM by NineN10mm »

Offline bobclevenger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2016, 02:51:00 PM »
You got a great deal on your Elite (or else you bought it a long time ago).
FWIW, I have also worked up some hot loads and that's what I like to shoot -- same as you.
I managed to get my DPM setup for $85. Yeah, the price put me off for a time, but I finally "bit the bullet" so to say.
It seems to work for me and work better than the Sprinco unit I tried. Sprinco would have been fine if I had hands like a gorilla, but I don't. I just wondered if anyone else here had tried it.
I also shoot 9x23 Winchester out of a .38 Super Witness semi-compact and I have the same concerns about it because of the pressure level of that round being over 50,000 psi. BTW, that makes a great carry pistol if you don't mind the weight of 17 + 1 rounds of .357 Mag level ammo.
Bob

Offline NineN10mm

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2016, 10:52:21 PM »
Yes.  That Witness was a good deal.  Check gunbuyer.com and it's free shipping.  So I asked the LGS to price match, rather than pay $50 FFL fee.  They did, so with tax the out the door cost was $750'ish.  It worked out the same, but they make the sale with a bit of margin rather than just the FFL fee.

Great pistol, especially with all the spring changes talked about here.  Glad I sold G20 and G29.

Look for flat primers on your high loads.  Back off about 0.4 gr from that, just to be safe.  Also, I learn from the late SwampFox that the best way to test high loads is to fire with the magazine out.  That way, if there's excess causing a breach, the force would travel down the magazine channel.

Be Safe !

Offline bobclevenger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2016, 12:05:09 AM »
Good points. I'll keep them in mind. I also use Quickload software to get an approximate idea of the pressure level.
Bob

Offline mrmackc

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2016, 05:10:21 PM »
SPRINGING A Witness Compact .40 S&W

New posting of my old problem:

I am new to the EEA Witness, CZ pistol as an owner, I have shot a CZ before.

I came here because of a problem I have with my new .40 all steel Wonderfinish EAA Witness Compact Semi Auto Pistol .40 S&W 3.6" Barrel 12 Rounds Rubber Grip Steel Wonder Finish 999098
It has a extra stiff slide. the original stock recoil spring is two springs, the standard and a captured spring.  The slide is tight even without the spring and rod installed, more tight an inch or two from full open, so much that it is barely able to chamber a cartridge.
 
The pistol has never been shot. The slide recoil spring is to strong that the slide stop can't be applied. in addition to the slide being stiff the slide stop pin is VERY tight in the slide and barrel link I don't think the slide goes back far enough to lock. I have checked the rails on the slide and the frame, there is no burrs or rough spots. the slide is really tight in the area of the magazine well.
End of original post
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I have done to date (August 20, 2016)
 
I ordered the Wolff Witness calibration recoil set and installed the 18# spring. The slide would NOT go back far enough to chamber a round nor would the manual slide latch lock the slide. I started cutting coils off the Wolff spring and did get the slide to latch open after cutting several coils off the spring  (this is with the 18# only!) using the factory recoil rod).

After reading the entire recent Recoil Springing thread I decided the original factory two spring setup for this compact model EAA Witness.40 S&W is correct,  so I removed the Wolff 18# spring and reinstalled the original 2 springs, and started trimming, I measured the space allowed for the collapsed recoil springs, it is TINY! After trimming 3 coils off each spring I am able to open the slide enough to latch the slide with the manual slide lock, with only 1/32th of an inch slack in the slide. The pistol has never been fired and that is for the next trip to the range.

I believe that the design of this pistol is a good one, however the factory assembly and the owners manual are need ing to be updated before the pistol is sent to a dealer for sale.
P.S. I have polished the slide, hammer and the frame and have worked the slide many times with a very weak 18 pound spring that I shortened to give a full slide travel, with my set of Arkansas stones and a needle file wrapped in a single layer of 400 grit 3M emory. the slide is still a bit stiff, it won't fall off with gravity, like my series 70 1911 will that has over 2000 rounds thru it, with just the silde on the frame.

I would like to hear any advice from some of you Witness compact .40 owners and critique my procedure, also do I need a different Recoil Spring rod, or other parts.?

PLEASE!
 


« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 06:36:49 PM by mrmackc »
Life is a long winding trail, ride a good horse, keep your powder dry, and trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Offline bobclevenger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2016, 10:58:25 PM »
Well, it sounds as though your Witness is "coil-binding" with standard springs. Obviously, that should never happen. So let's think about what could cause that. Obviously, incorrect springs can cause it. Wolff usually gets it right if you order the correct spring for the firearm you have. All Witness pistols are now made on the "large frame" Tanfoglio platform, but in years past they were made on the "small frame" Tanfoglio platform which is the same size as the CZ-75. A limited number of small frame Witnesses were imported in recent years as a special "classic" model. If you have a small frame Witness the spring(s) for a large frame Witness might be too long. If this is the case try a recoil spring for a CZ-75.
Disregard the last 2 sentences. I just got out the calipers and measured an older small frame Witness Compact .40 S&W and a 10mm Witness (which are all large frame) and they measure the same in the recoil spring area. So that idea is a bust.

All I can think of is that you forgot to make sure that you ordered springs for a Compact model and received springs for a full-size Witness.

Personally I am using the DPM "Recoil Reducer" kit as my guide rod and recoil spring in my 10mm and 9x23 Win. Witness Compacts as well as in my CZ-75 Compact and it works very well. It is somewhat costly and hard to find though.

As for the slide binding on the frame without the guide rod or spring installed, that is just poor quality control by the manufacturer. If there is no evidence that it has been worked on and you have the original parts, put it back to original and send it in for warrantee work. Otherwise you can lap those rails in with valve grinding compound (available at any good auto parts store). Put a light coat of the fine grit compound on the rails and work the slide back and forth a few times. Clean it off and check. When it slides properly, clean and oil it.
Bob

Offline mrmackc

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2016, 12:47:32 AM »
The springs from Wolff were clearly marked EAA WitnessCOMPAC. They were not like the original springs on this pistol, it came with the two springs one inside the other. I was a rifle and pistol gunsmith for 30 years and never have I seen this kind of a SNFAU with a new in the factory box, the slide would not open far enough to chamber a round, and all of the information showed a single recoil spring (this pistol was built and sold in 2014).
I contacted the distributor and they wanted me to send the pistol to them to look at with a $25 check for the return shipping, and I said NO. The phone guy wouldn't let me talk to a tech.

The slide binding on the slide is fixed, there was just too much spring for the available space. I may have to cut some more coils off, but I do have a whole hand full of Wolff springs from 18# to 24#, and a good pair of side cutters, and head and eye protection and a pair of Kevlar gloves. The first shot will be with the magazine removed.

I appreciate your reply but do you have a newer Satin finish Wittness compac .40 S&W that came  with two recoil springs? 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:58:34 AM by mrmackc »
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Offline mrmackc

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2016, 01:52:08 AM »
This is a picture of Mrmackc's EAA Witness catalog pic"

Life is a long winding trail, ride a good horse, keep your powder dry, and trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior.