9mm to 9x23 Conversion Info Needed

[Micah68]

Thanks, Fred.  It was very helpful.

I know that barrel quality, fit, and bullet construction are the most important attributes to precision.  But I was just thinking that maybe 9x23 was more inherently accurate than the 9x19 kind of like how 10mm and 357Sig are usually more accurate than 40S&W, 9mm more than the 380, the PPC cartridges more so than their parent cases, or 308Win more than the 30-30, etc.

[mustang400]

Shows how much i know i thought a guide rod spring and recoil spring were the same.

9mm-Winchester factory ammo.

Q4318-NATO - 124gr fmj = 1305 fps+415ftlbs  +P

RA9124TP   - 124gr jhp = 1180fps+383ftlbs  +P

RA9TA        - 127gr jhp = 1250fps+441ftlbs  +P+

RA9115HP  - 115gr jhp = 1335fps+455ftlbs  +P+


9x23-Winchester factory ammo

Q4304     - 124gr jsp =1460fps+587ftlbs (same as 357 Mag ammo)

Looking at the Pics in Stuart's above post of different 9mm ammo it's obvious that the Winchester 9x23 brass could carry a larger grain bullet if hand loaded.

[OSI/Alex]

I never tried it myself because I had issues with getting 9X23 ammo, but I had read from several sources that 9X23 worked in unmodified .38 super Witness pistols, and the barrels were practically the same, just the breechface on the .38 Super is more like the size you see on a .40 cal.   In fact, I did some swapping around and found that I could fit a .40 barrel on a .38 super and it was just a wee bit tight with the .40, but not badly.   I never sold anything that way because I was told it was unsafe, but never had anything go Kaboom from it either. 

There has been a long time issue with the .38 super mags they had for European sales vs the ones for US sales, as the Euro variants would be marked "38 SA" and sometimes "9mm SA" which I was told meant "special auto".   I still have several left over since I had a pretty big batch made available to me back during the ban and I snapped them up.   I can only find two right now, but know I have more at my old place somewhere. 

[Rod Slinger]

Alex I know I speak for a lot of us Old Timers in saying that it is good to have you and your knowledge back.  For you young pups, Alex was modifying the Witness while the rest of us was trying to figure how to field strip it.  You were missed.   R S

[Bret]

Today I picked up the 9mm Match that I'm going to use for the 9x23 conversion.  Talk about smooth.  I'll ship off the upper in a few days.  I'm really looking forward to getting it working.

[mustang400]

Bret,

Big difference between your old steel gun and the Match. Very little difference in $.

Good to hear you got you new project working! What about ammo?

david

[Bret]

What about ammo?

I lucked out and bought nine 100 case bags of new Winchester brass from MidwayUSA at a little over $20 per bag.  I also bought some 124gr FMJ's and a couple of boxes of Hornady 124gr XTP's.  I also have some Zero 147gr JHP's that I'd like to try.  I bought a set of Hornady 9x23 dies from some unknown internet company that I forget the name of.  Now I just need some reloading data.  Hodgdon only lists one load on their website.

[Stuart]

Couple of links for you



http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/6/32

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9x23%20Winchester&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source

[mustang400]

Bret,
If you ever get to this point i'd sure like to buy a box of the 147gr. ammo. I've looked at brass, you were a lucky guy that day!

david

[OSI/Alex]

I found a pile of those 18 shot large frame magazines if anyone is interested.  They are the "during the ban" Euro pattern.  Think I have eight on hand now.

I am curious, what is the consensus on 9X23 vs .357 Sig?  Seems like you get better everything.  More consistent ammo, more mag capacity, easier reloading.  I remember having the discussion with the new marketing guy at EAA in 05 before I was "taken away".   Forgot his name but he said he had previously worked at Sigarms USA and they were sitting on piles of .357 Sig pistols that they could not sell, thus they had no intention of going with a .357 Sig Witness pistol as a regular production item. 

It was about that time that the FN 5-7 was getting a lot of attention and I had one on order from a local FFL, but had not picked it up yet (I eventually just bought one from another dealer and cancelled my order).   We were looking at finding some way to do a hyper velocity Witness conversion, but I could not come up with barrel blanks on a cost effective basis.   We tried some things with 7.62 Tokarev but that was doomed to fail due to the grip size issue.  Then there was .30 Luger would could get interesting, but we had the barrel blank availability issue.   Seems a 9X23 necked down to .223 would get really interesting in a hurry though.   Realistically, maybe just neck it down to 2.43 if you can get barrel blanks that would work.   That gives you some options in keeping bullet weights up while still having a bottleneck cartridge that gives hyper velocity.

[Bret]

Stuart, Thanks for the reloading data.  I think I'm going to use some of the Lapua data.  I've always wanted to try one of thier powder because I've heard they are real clean burning.  Their 3N37 looks to be a good choice.  It can give 1500fps with a 115gr bullet and 1400fps with a 124gr bullet.

If you ever get to this point i'd sure like to buy a box of the 147gr. ammo. I've looked at brass, you were a lucky guy that day!

As much as I'd like to help you out, I have a personal policy of not selling or even giving my reloads away.  It's a liability thing.  If I make a mistake, the only person that I'll injur with my reloads is myself.  On the other hand.  I am willing to show others how to reload and watch them through the process.  You're right.  I did get a great deal on that brass.

I am curious, what is the consensus on 9X23 vs .357 Sig?  Seems like you get better everything.  More consistent ammo, more mag capacity, easier reloading.

The 357Sig has an advantage over the 9x23 in that it can go in small framed pistols.  Most shooters just don't want large framed pistols.  They want small framed double stack hicap pistols.  357Sig ammo is expensive, but 9x23 is even more expensive.  I have a 357Sig barrel for my Glock 23.  Recoil is very sharp.  I'm sure this turns a lot of people off from the cartridge.  I'm hoping the 9x23 recoil isn't as sharp.  Fortunately for me, shooting the large frame that the 9x23 requires isn't a problem.  Then again, I won't be carrying this Witness because it's so big and heavy, but I do sometimes carry my Glock 23.

[Stuart]

3n37 is a nice powder. Used it pretty much exclusively when I used 9x23 in my competition open guns and had my 1911 5" 9x23. It was very consistent and clean burning.

Mustang. I may have some once fired brass around if you need it. I'll have to dig through my gunroom and see what's stuck on the shelves.

[mustang400]

Bret,
No problem, i don't reload so i had to ask. I'm shooting 500rds/mo of all calibers, it's about time i got smart about this. Were is the break even point in hand loading against equipment and brass, powder etc. I have a friend who could "watch me through"-- good idea! Lets assume i've now reloaded 2000rds and am now in my reloading comfort zone could i expect my cost /rd to be a little bit less than half of what i paid for Winchester factory JSP 9x23 --- $ .54/rd?

Stuart,
I'll take you up on that offer!

[Bret]

I'm going to estimate what the cost of a box of 50rds of 124gr FMJ would be.
Bullets: Zero 124gr FMJ's at $110.60 per 1000 delivered = $0.1106 per cartridge
Powder: Vihtavuori 3N37 at $35 per LB (1Lb = 7000 grains) at 7.5gr = $0.0375 per cartridge.
Primers: Winchester small rifle primers at $32 per 1000 = $0.0320 per cartridge
Cases: Winchester brass at $32.00 per 100 = $0.3200 per cartridge
Total = $0.5001 per cartridge which is $25.005 per box of 50rds.

As you can see, the big expense in all this is the cases.  When you reload them, the cost per cartridge falls to $0.1801 per cartridge or $9.005 per box.  This cost is just ever so slightly higher than the cost to reload regular 9mm.  You can reduce the initial cost of making complete cartridges by using Starline brass or a less expensive power.  I elected to go with the Winchester cases because I've read that they are more durable.  Assuming that a box of factory Winchester 9x23 costs $25, you're saving about $16 per box of 50rds.  This is definitely a cartridge that it pays to reload.  I'll pay for the cost of my 9x23 reloading dies by the time I make my 5th box of ammo.  On the other hand, regular 9mm can be purchased for about $11 per box of 50rds delivered, so it doesn't really pay that much to reload it.  It would actually cost more to make yourself from scratch.  Keep in mind that this is just a cost analysis.  You can do things with your reloads that you can't find in factory ammo.  JHP's can be reloaded for only slightly more, which is a bigger savings versus factory ammo.

[mustang400]

That's quit a big difference. I'm in! I see your using SRP's, that's the hot set for this caliber?
 There's no snap to this load, no comparision to a Glock firing 357Sig. About like 40 Major!

Besides the dies, what will a mid-range complete loading system cost and how does that effect loaded boxes to cover that cost?