9mm to 9x23 Conversion Info Needed

[Bret]

I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday.  I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good.  I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23.  I have a few questions.
1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super?  I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long.
2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
3) What spring weight would you recommend?  I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads.  My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo.
4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion?   

[DenStinett]

Bret:
If you don't get the answers you seek, PM Rod Slinger
He's kinda the Witness guru around these parts
Good luck
Shoot safe, Den S

[Stuart]

Send Mustang400 a PM. he just had his barrel done by Jim Milks ( Innovative Custom Guns ) used to be with EGW ( when they did guns). EGW has a lot of experience working with 9x23 as they were involved with the original 9x23 design.

[Stuart]

I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday.  I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good.  I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23.  I have a few questions.
1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super?  I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long.
2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
3) What spring weight would you recommend?  I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads.  My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo.
4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion?   

1. 9x23 is same OAL as 38 Super, use the 38S magazine
2.9mm extractor should be fine. especially with the way the Tanfoglio extractor system is designed.

[Rod Slinger]

Bret..... Asked me to weigh in on his plans so here goes.

I picked up my 9mm/22LR large frame Witness conversion yesterday.  I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but it looks good.  I've found someone to ream the 9mm upper to 9x23.  I have a few questions.

1) Which magazines do I use, 9mm or 38Super?  I don't have any 9x23 to test in the 9mm magazine, but a 38Super FMJ that I have was too long.  The 38 Super would be my choice.

2) Will the 9mm extractor be fine as is?
The 9mm extractor should work. 

3) What spring weight would you recommend?  I'll be shooting the Winchester factory JSP as well as my own reloads.  My reloads will likely be less hot than the factory ammo. 
I am a firm believer in matching the recoil spring to the shooter, ammo and intended use for the gun.   The Witness is greatly under sprung for most shooters who shoot factor ammo with anything but the lightest weight bullet.  If you are going to shoot the gun in matches with light reloads the factory recoil spring will most likely be OK.  If I was going down this road if would get several weight springs from Wolff.

4) Will this 9mm upper half that I just got work on a Witness Match single action lower half?

Maybe.  The Match is a custom shop gun that is hand fitted.  The only way you will know is to try it.

5) Is there anything else that I should know about a 9x23 conversion?   Make sure you find all your brass before it walks off the range.   

Last but not least   DenStinett  is for smarter than I will ever be.     R S

[mustang400]

I started with Match 38 Super. And then bought complete 9mm upper(Match) from EAA. Ran 500rds+ thru each. The new K series mags are the way to go. K38 stamped on tube.

Then bought Winchester Q4304 9x23 JSP ammo. Ammo hand cycles thru the 38Super mag and gun with no issues. Didn't hurt to have Stuart walking me thru this build.   Half way there.

Jim Milks at Innovative Custom Guns,814-766-3004 worked with just the 9mm upper and no frame. He had the same factory ammo so working with an empty case and loaded cartridge he was able to optimize ammo to barrel fitment. He then worked some slight throating and tightened the ejector. Jim was easy to deal with, 10 day turn around and fairly priced.  Make sure the gunsmith you go with has owned and shot 9x23 guns!

 I went with Winchester 9x23 ammo because the brass is built much tougher than the other brands! I've read were guys have reloaded these Winchester cases 15+ times.  All most to the go bang part!

9x23 upper now meets back with 38S lower and off to the range. Ho-Hum, runs off 19rds like it just came out of the box from Tangfolio. I now have the ballistics of 357 mag ammo but half the recoil. It was almost anti-climatic, i expected 357mag recoil and got 40MAJOR recoil.
I just used the 38s spring, slings brass 15ft.

Bret,
The dust cover on my Match 38s frame is plenty short enough to fit the 4.5" (i think you have) barrel(match barrels are 4.75"). Both yours and the Match are Large Frame guns so there should no fitment problems. OR the less exspensive way to go might be to buy one of Hennings SAO triggers and have the gunsmith install it. Now you wouldn't need the 38Super frame, and could use what you got. Just need to buy 38S mags.

 There are a lot of guys out there that have shot 9x23 1911's but very few that have shot 19rd mags out of these new Tangfolio Large Frame guns. I hope you move ahead with your build!


david

 I hope this has helped. Headed back to the range tomorrow to shoot my first full box or so. Box doesn't last long when the mag holds 18rds. K38 mags are wearing H500 pads, no other mods.

[Stuart]

Jim Milks used to be George Smith's lead gunsmith when EGW built guns. George helped John Ricco work up the original 9x23 before WIN got hold of it. So John is very familiar with the 9x23 cartridge and making great guns.

Just for reference. Here is photo of some brass I sectioned years ago when I played a bunch with the cartridge

WIN9x23 brass in the middle. You can see how much thicker it is
(38Super, Starline 9SuperComp, Win9x23, CP9X23, 9X21)

[mustang400]

George was very nice on the phone and sent me to Jim.

Pics are worth a thousand words! Looks like a wrap for the Win9x23.

I called the last phone # i could find for John and got his store but he had sold out to someone else(still works there). They did not make ammo anymore, whitch is what i was looking for at the time. I never thought to get him on the phone and see if he was still pistol smithing.

[myles]

Why did you get an entirely different upper, rather than just barrel and recoil spring?

[mustang400]

I think the conversion kits have to be test fired at the factory. Some fitting could have been involved. The long slide kit for $145 more gets you the LPA Super Sight(adj.) installed w/correct front sight, guide rod spring(correct), guide rod, slide release and one new K9 mag. Sounded like a better buy to me. The LS(Match 4.75") barrel is $150 alone. I find for myself it's easier to keep track of complete uppers than barrels(i use both). All parts go in proprietary bins marked by caliber and manufacturer.
 The last project on this build is sending the new 6" 9mm barrel,frame, 9mm slide to the AWC Suppressor folks and have them cut(5.35"?),
thread, fit barrel protector and fire for function. May never get suppressor but the worst i end up with is a long barreled 9mm Match!

[Bret]

I started with Match 38 Super. And then bought complete 9mm upper(Match) from EAA. Ran 500rds+ thru each. The new K series mags are the way to go. K38 stamped on tube.

You've convinced me to set my 9mm/22LR combo aside and get a 9mm Match.  I'll probably just sell the 9mm upper that came with the combo.  This way I'll have a dedicated 22LR and a dedicated 9x23.  I already have a small frame full sized 9mm and a small frame compact 40S&W.  I'll give Jim Milks a call.

[mustang400]

Bret,

You will need 38 Super mags and bigger guide rod spring also.

75rds went to target from the 9x23 yesterday. Mags are breaking in and now hold 19+1. If you owned a 1911 running this ammo, you would have to carry three other mags + a loaded gun. The new Deasert Eagle 357mag (now owned by Karr) SA, i think only hold 7+1 and is $1500.

Again, this one Bad Ass carry gun and the first i put the target at 25yds and beat up the 2" center of a 6'' target. Still work to be done!
Being 62 years old i think my goal of a 6'' target at 50yds is doable. Gun is very accurate.

Looking forward to hearing about your 9x23 build drama, god knows you'll have had to listen to mine.Any help you need , let me know.

david

[Bret]

You will need 38 Super mags and bigger guide rod spring also.

By this do you mean a heavier recoil spring?

[Micah68]

On average, how many FPS do you gain going from 9mm to 9x23, using the same bullets?

Is the 9x23 any more inherently accurate than the 9mm?

[ReloaderFred]

The 9x23 Winchester cartridge is based on a rifle cartridge base and wall, so the pressures can be up near 50,000 psi.  With pressures in the mid 40,000 psi range you can easily gain about 300 fps over the 9x19 with the same weight bullet and barrel length.  I've often thought that a carbine in this caliber would be a great little tool. 

By the way, Winchester loads this round with a small rifle primer.

I had a long conversation with Ed Nowak at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago about the 9x23 Winchester round.  Ed is kind of full of himself, but he takes credit for Winchester producing the round on a commercial basis.  He used to shoot it in IPSC competition, but he's now selling off his guns.  He shot it for a full year in competition in a .38 Super match gun (1911) and just carried a chamber brush with him and cleaned the chamber after each stage of fire.  At that time no one was producing barrels.  He said that Nowlin made his first 9x23 barrel for him.

As for accuracy, there are so many variables that it would be difficult to say that one is better than the other, but I've found it to be a very accurate round in MY pistols.

The 9x23 Winchester does require a heavier recoil spring than the 9x19 does. 

Hope this helps.

Fred