Author Topic: CZ 75B full auto?  (Read 6774 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline CeZar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2012, 06:41:39 PM »
Hey guys,

Thank you all for your informative responses.

You need to know, I'm not trying to sell the 75B.  I just don't like people who pass out false information. 

Every shooter has their own gun preferences, but slide or frame wear to the point of looseness or impairing accuracy has not been an issue with the steel CZ 75's. 

He never mentioned accuracy problems just looseness and also that the service life is extremely low - not exactly sure what he meant by that but when you say 2-3 guns over 10,000 rounds, well that's pretty extreme.

Sounds like total crap to me too, I have a 75b in .40 that has over 4000 rounds down range, no slop, no rattles, no full auto. I've even been known to shoot a lot of "HOT" ammo through the pipe!!!! Just have to keep the slide oiled.

I actually did find a forum article (not this forum) a few days ago where someone also mentioned the full auto burst malfunction for the shadow, but it was hard to find it the first time, I didn't bookmark it and now I cannot find it again. So - my guess is if it did happen it can't be very common. Plus that sounds like an extremely dangerous malfunction and would be something CZ would have to pay attention to.

Widge said it best.  Remember that a salesman is there to sell you something. 

What pistol did he recommend otherwise?

He may hang out at local USPSA matches, but if he were to attend an international competition, I he would see more CZ's in Production than he even knew existed.  The Shadow is currently the winningest pistol on a global scale.  That wouldn't happen if the gun was unreliable.

Here is the weird thing. The salesmen do not work on commissions at this store - which is what a different salesman told me at this same store on a different day. Also, even odder is that he did not really recommend anything after trashing it. I had to ask him what else he might recommend. He just pulled out the standard sig p226 - everyones darling pistol - which I quickly dismissed. So he wasn't really trying to sell me anything... Also I live in Canada and the Shadow is if not the most popular gun sold in this country, and he even said so himself. That is why I believed a gun store worker, who goes to IPSC matches here. He's seen a lot of them at the shop and competitions. I don't get it.

Since the slide has play, I would pass on it.

There was very little play but asked to see the other one he thought he had before I bought it. Just that another example I had seen had zero play - which is what I thought I wanted.

I think that guy may be what the kids would say "a hater"  ;D

I think you might be right - Not really any other reasons that I can think of. So this really sucks because it was their annual 1 day big sale and now it will be much more expensive.

I did read somewhere that the pistols are rated for 30,000 regular 9mm rounds or 15,000 +p rounds. This does seem a little low in my very uneducated thought. I know it's just a rating and my be under rated... any thoughts compared to other pistols rated service lives. These service life estimations are for frame and or slide, not the small components.

Offline jameslovesjammie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4608
  • The Last Best Place
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 07:43:09 PM »
I did read somewhere that the pistols are rated for 30,000 regular 9mm rounds or 15,000 +p rounds. This does seem a little low in my very uneducated thought. I know it's just a rating and my be under rated... any thoughts compared to other pistols rated service lives. These service life estimations are for frame and or slide, not the small components.

No, the pistol isn't rated for 30,000 or 15,000 NATO rounds...it was tested up to that level and passed.  That is the minimum qualifications for the Czech Police.  That was for the P01, which is just a short SP01 frame.  To pass the test, it was allowed to have 20 failures in 10,000 rounds of constant fire.  Their test gun had 7 failures in 15,000.

Here is the test results:

(From CZ press release pertaining to P-01 passing NATO compliance)
...

The pistol was required to pass a wide variety of tests:

The police required that the pistol ensure the highest level of comfort, an extended slide release was added as well as an extended magazine release and the trigger was reshaped to give a more consistent pull throughout the trigger stroke.

The pistol must be 100% reliable in extreme conditions, the following is a list of some of the minimum requirements.

Must be able to complete the following without failure:

4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.


Safety requirements:

Drop test
1.5 meter (4.9) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

3meter drop (9.8) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.

The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at 35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:
The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, thats a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

Offline CeZar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 09:38:20 PM »
I see. Thank you very much for all the info and clearing up my confusion on the service life ratings.

Offline 1SOW

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15006
  • GO GREEN - Recycle 9MM
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 10:03:26 PM »
The shooters most likely to have a pistol malfunction/go full auto are competitors who fine-tune their own pistols and/or amateur garage gunsmiths who don't really know what they are doing.

EXample: Many years ago I TUNED my High Standard .22 cal target pistol to "improve" the trigger.  It had "slack" in it that I took out.  The trigger was very light and precise--good job.  When I test-shot the pistol,  it fired fine but "sounded" strange.  It was firing TWO rds every time I pulled the trigger---NOT ONE, NOT three, but TWO rds.  I promptly put the slack BACK in the trigger linkage.  It might have just as easily gone full auto, because I didn't know the consequences of removing that very small amount of slack before trigger engagement.

JMO:  The "stock" Shadow or 75B is not going to go full auto unless someone has altered the action group beyond safe limits.



 

Offline Cavalryman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 10:36:25 PM »
That's easily one of the most retarded lines of crap I've ever heard! The CZ slide-inside-frame design is actually one of the strongest on the market. Any pistol can develop a little slop in the slide-to-frame fit but it's more likely they were an imperfect fit at the factory, which usually doesn't do anything significant to the accuracy. Most of the semi-autos I've owned can be made to wiggle a little but it's no big deal. As pointed out above, some internet research should assure you that the failure rate of CZ pistols is considerably lower than almost any other make.

Offline CeZar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 12:24:21 AM »
That's easily one of the most retarded lines of crap I've ever heard! The CZ slide-inside-frame design is actually one of the strongest on the market. Any pistol can develop a little slop in the slide-to-frame fit but it's more likely they were an imperfect fit at the factory, which usually doesn't do anything significant to the accuracy. Most of the semi-autos I've owned can be made to wiggle a little but it's no big deal. As pointed out above, some internet research should assure you that the failure rate of CZ pistols is considerably lower than almost any other make.

That's pretty much along the same lines I was thinking after all the research I did, and why I wanted it from the start. But being a newbie, in both cz forums title and in actual firearms experience, I decided to listen to the advice given (by the salesman, I mean).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:28:20 AM by CeZar »

Offline CeZar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 01:10:53 AM »
Totally agreed:

The shooters most likely to have a pistol malfunction/go full auto are competitors who fine-tune their own pistols and/or amateur garage gunsmiths who don't really know what they are doing.

EXample: Many years ago I TUNED my High Standard .22 cal target pistol to "improve" the trigger.  It had "slack" in it that I took out.  The trigger was very light and precise--good job.  When I test-shot the pistol,  it fired fine but "sounded" strange.  It was firing TWO rds every time I pulled the trigger---NOT ONE, NOT three, but TWO rds.  I promptly put the slack BACK in the trigger linkage.  It might have just as easily gone full auto, because I didn't know the consequences of removing that very small amount of slack before trigger engagement.

JMO:  The "stock" Shadow or 75B is not going to go full auto unless someone has altered the action group beyond safe limits.

I always laugh at guys who accessorize or "modify" their equipment thinking that they made it better - especially when they have no intimate knowledge of the platform.

Established arms manufacturers make good quality guns and their engineers usually test to a fairly wide variety of shooting/ammo platforms. Again... Usually...

But if you tweek a cheap cast frame pistol with your unskilled hand with a dremel and then think it's going to function like a $4000 custom - well then - you are ignorant and stupid.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 01:15:02 AM by CeZar »

Offline handgun2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2012, 01:16:38 AM »
czr guy,

you got taken.. no offense.  either the guy wants to sell something with more commision, or wants for self.. have'n't you asked yourself.. why the CZ is probably the 2nd most copied system on the planet? 

do yourself a favor.. call schmeky at cajun gun works.. or angus at CZ custom shop.. 

few if any are more reliable, accurate.. than a CZ. proven fact.  just has gotten

better.

respectfully,
k

even the Local LEO officers here will .. go wow// respect for a CZ.

Offline sirgilligan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 297
    • Gun Log SPC
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2012, 10:05:41 AM »
Quote
He just pulled out the standard sig p226 - everyones darling pistol - which I quickly dismissed

Well, there you go. Last year I was shown the dealer cost listing for their SIG pistols. A $950 P229 cost them 6 something, I think 635 or 605. Nice little profit. He showed me on a Glock they make $50.00. Sorry, I didn't see any info on a CZ. Point is, he did recommend a firearm with a huge profit margin. I was taken by the Sig hype and after some issues I don't have a Sig in the house. CZ is the best value of any pistol I have ever owned. Now, it doesn't appeal to me the same as my Browning Hi Powers, but the CZ has earned its place as a trusted firearm that is balanced, points, and shoots superbly. When I go shoot, I grab the CZ and I am never disappointed. I am so impressed with the pistol I truly want another. I have to compare the CZ 75 family to the Beretta 92 family and hopefully I will get to do that in January when I will be visiting home and maybe my Dad will get his 92 out.

I currently own a S&W 659 (my first pistol ever), two Hi-Powers, and the CZ 85B. I can shoot the HP and the CZ almost identically. The trigger on the S&W has never allowed me to shoot it as well. All three have been perfectly reliable.

Offline motosapiens

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2012, 05:13:26 PM »
How tight have your pistols stayed slide to frame?

i have 2 cz's a 75bd 9mm (2000-3000 rds?)  and a 75b 40 (10,000 rds and going up fast). The 9 has a little bit of play in the slide, but noticeably less than my m&p. It hasn't gotten any worse. The 40 has almost no play in the slide at all. you really have to concentrate to feel anything.

these guns have a fairly long bearing surface (unlike my m&p), so slide wear should be a non-issue, especially if you are one of those guys that puts a touch of quality grease on it.

Offline CeZar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2012, 10:30:03 PM »
Awesome - last 3 reply's. And no, I never take offense at someones honest opinion. I am most interested in gaining knowledge.

Offline handgun2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2012, 11:20:54 PM »
CZR guy,
you get 'high credit' in my book for being so willing to ask, listen and learn.. the good, bad and ugly.  kudos to you sir!   PLEASE contact/call schmecky at cajun gun works.. he truly is a guru of CZ's.. ( i own 3 different .40 cz's) anyways, when I talked with him about my .40B and the 'looseness" in the slide that I could observed and wanted so badly to take out.. worried about accuracy.. (funny but all my accuracy checks freehand always have produced almost hole on hole/snake eye.. truly incredible accuracy at 8-15yd shots.. (me worried b/c a former tool/die maker and thus any visible slack/gaps... NEED to be fixed to increase accuracy, right?? seems logical.

he laughed and explained the real thing which determines handgun accuracy is regarding the lockup and a few other items.. has nothing to do with some perceived looseness..   I DIDN"T want to believe him... but the proof is in the pudding.. others here can speak more elequently than I, being new to handguns.. but longtime owner of high quality SxS shotguns.. thus my draw to CZ.. b/c in that moment when you need to point and shoot... CZ's work accurately and reliably.. day in day out.. the guns are more accurate than most know...

cjgun works now selling upgraded .45's.. which are just as accurate as any other and better than most costing 2-3x the cost..  sub 1 inch at 25 yds.    do the google search.. 

then call and talk about CZ's, accuracy, reliability.. etc.. 

all the best, and peace to you and yours.

kevin

Offline SDDLUP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2012, 12:42:29 AM »
A "hater" for sure.

The CZ75 design is very robust.  There is NO WAY people are only getting 4,000 rounds of ammo before wearing out a CZ75 - no way.  Perhaps they change springs every 4,000 rounds just because they like to, perhaps they change springs and a pin or two, but there is no way a CZ75/85/ SP01 or whatever wears out in that many rounds.  I would say the actual "life span", with reasonable spring maintenance, maybe a slide stop every 15,000 rounds would be more along the lines of 50,000 to 75,000 rounds.

There are a few people around that do put a TON of rounds downrange.  Somewhere on the internet there is a guy that was pushing 60,000 rounds out of a 40 cal. IPSC STANDARD, I think he had broken one or two slide stops in that time.

Offline scribe556

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 06:17:38 PM »
I would say the actual "life span", with reasonable spring maintenance, maybe a slide stop every 15,000 rounds would be more along the lines of 50,000 to 75,000 rounds.

OK, now because I just don't know, I have two more follow-on questions:

1) what is the typical service life of other pistols for comparison like the 92FS, Hi-Power, or Sig P226? 

and 2) if you get to a "service life" end on a CZ, what can you do to overhaul the pistol?  or is it on a downhill slide from there because it's a frame/slide loosening?  or can you put a new barrel, internals, etc?

Thanks for any info...

Offline SDDLUP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Re: CZ 75B full auto?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2012, 11:58:29 PM »
scribe556,

The Beretta 92FS (and M9) will break the locking block after many thousands of rounds - maybe 15,000.  There have also been issues with cracked slides in these guns shooting full power NATO ammo.

I can't help you on the Sig P226.

Glocks can also have the locking block fail, but less frequently it seems than the Beretta, perhaps because the polymer frame absorbs the impact well.  Other parts can and do break.  I broke my HK USP once too.  Nothing is immune.

One thing I like about the CZ is the slide stop serves the same function as the locking block in other designs, so it's super fast and simple to change if it ever fails.

Concerning the service life of a CZ, I would take it to a good gunsmith that has a lot of experience with that type of gun.  They can perform an overhaul, replacing all the springs, and check things like the locking lugs, slide to frame fit, etc.  If you're concerned about what repairs can be done, an all metal gun is probably your best bet - they can always be welded!