Author Topic: Bonesteel Arms availability  (Read 8976 times)

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Offline Ohio_OJ

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 11:04:07 PM »
Got an email from Bonesteel saying they will have another batch in late December.

Offline Kolme

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2014, 11:05:16 PM »
Same as above. Yay.

Offline RSR

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2014, 12:30:21 AM »
Still haven't heard from them...  :o

Ordered the latter half of July.

Offline Kolme

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2014, 12:32:37 AM »
RSR we heard back because we sent an email requesting an update. Atleast I did

Offline RSR

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2014, 12:36:22 AM »
Yes, I did that too.  Guess I'll email them again.

Offline yves

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2014, 06:52:22 PM »
Mine arrived last week, I think I put my first order in about a year ago.
But you know what, it was worth the wait, since the quality and craftsmanship of this item is beyond any of my expectations.
I have no insight into Chris' P&L, but we can all rest assured that any commercial activity for us VZ58 owners should be considered 'niche', as opposed to the gravy train provided by the AK and AR platforms. Most probably that is also why he outsources the production for the VZ rail.
Net, I think we should all be happy somebody is still wanting to go out of his way to take care of us, just my humble opinion.

If this is not your primary rifle, my suggestion would be to wait.

Good luck !

Offline RSR

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2014, 12:19:58 AM »
The reality of the situation is that American consumers don't wait. 

So while it's fine if Chris decides to take that approach for his own company and if he was the only one losing sales, but as is he's screwing over CNC Warrior that is a small company working on small profit margins and frankly has capabilities that Chris doesn't insofar as cost effective construction is concerned.  CNC Warrior makes all of his stuff and also makes a lot of niche stuff for various more obscure weapons systems, so in effect, by constraining their profit and cash flows he's also limiting the amount of further R&D they can do to bring more new and interesting stuff to the firearms market.

I suspect that this latest run update is due far more to our appeals to CNC Warrior directly than Bonesteel.  IMO, he needs to stick w/ designing, take a profit for every item he designed is sold, and let CNC Warrior handle all the retail portions of his business.  His customer communications and inventory management are nothing short of terrible...

Offline yves

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2014, 09:37:28 PM »
With all respect, but there are a lot of non substantiated assumptions in your statements, good thing this is not part of an earnings release. As mentioned, we do not have insight in Bonesteels' P&L, nor CNC Warrior's. Without knowing what minimum order quantities are, fixed versus variable cost a production run, etc... it is hard to make any credible statements about this.


The reality of the situation is that American consumers don't wait. 

So while it's fine if Chris decides to take that approach for his own company and if he was the only one losing sales, but as is he's screwing over CNC Warrior that is a small company working on small profit margins and frankly has capabilities that Chris doesn't insofar as cost effective construction is concerned.  CNC Warrior makes all of his stuff and also makes a lot of niche stuff for various more obscure weapons systems, so in effect, by constraining their profit and cash flows he's also limiting the amount of further R&D they can do to bring more new and interesting stuff to the firearms market.

I suspect that this latest run update is due far more to our appeals to CNC Warrior directly than Bonesteel.  IMO, he needs to stick w/ designing, take a profit for every item he designed is sold, and let CNC Warrior handle all the retail portions of his business.  His customer communications and inventory management are nothing short of terrible...

Offline RSR

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2014, 11:29:34 PM »
Don't know what's "unsubstantiated."  First two are facts, and third is opinion/recommendation based upon known facts.  To be clear, I'm not on here to bash Bonesteel.  I'm a big fan of CNC Warrior.  And I like Chris' designs/products.  I don't like his customer service or communication or inventory management (or lack thereof). 

1) US consumers by and large want instant gratification.  Consumer marketing is predominantly built upon that behavior.  If a product that they want isn't available, 9 times out of 10 American consumers substitute the next best/closest to rather than wait.  I'm very particular about things and will wait, but I'm an exception to the rule on most things and realize that...
2) Private companies can do what they wish.  But it's unfortunate when those decisions not only harm consumers due to lack of product availability but also harm the US manufacturing base that supports the retailer...  If even one person who would have purchased a bonesteel item opts for another foreign manufacturer due to lack of availability (I know for a fact that has happened, I'm one of them), then there has been harm to that retailer's suppliers.  If CNC Warrior knows of immediate demand and immediate sales upon completing production, like any manufacturing business, they'd produce enough on the first run rather than retooling and setting up for their next project and then wasting production time by setting up to run the job again a month later -- yes CNC Warrior has a minimum but like most things production, the higher quantity you run the lower per piece cost so the higher per piece profit...
3) Bonesteel does not proactively update customers on product availability and is ridiculously hard to reach.  To the extent of folks posting on these boards asking if he's even still in business -- and "fraud warnings" on other forums (like the AK ones) -- the only efficient way folks have resolved in a normal manner is directly w/ CNC Warrior (example: http://www.theakforum.net/forums/22-optics-accessories/170848-bonesteel-arms-stock-issue-resolved.html ).  His wait times for products are absurd.  He told us he wouldn't be offering next batch until June or July of 2015.  After a bunch of us contacted CNC Warrior, suddenly a batch will be available in December.  Draw your own conclusions, but it looks like CNC Warrior has taken the lead and implemented their usual awesome customer service and demand-based inventory best practices that has led to DIY builders as well as the "best of" "niche" weapon system builders like Jeff Miller/TennGalil using their products exclusively for their builds... 

Insofar as to what we know about  CNC Warrior, there is a lot of corporate research out there on P&L approximations based upon marketplace data regarding corporation credit ratings, etc...  You just have to search for it.

CNC Warrior is the firearms business of Derita Precision Machine Company.  They employ ~20 machinists (~10 years average experience so they keep competent staff on board) and have less than half that in front office, customer service, and fulfillment personnel.  Approximated annual revenue between the two is $10-25 million annually.  And most of their corporation officers are also the folks you talk with when call and need something, so it fits the small business profile of active owner management.

I have dealt with CNC Warrior for a few years now with receiver group buys and various parts from their online store.  Group buys that haven't pulled through in the past at the promised rate have negatively affected their cash flow -- this is a small profit margins company whose entrance and rise into prominence in the firearms industry largely coincided with all the 922r regulations.  They were about the only ones consistently putting out affordable and quality US made 922r products.  And that base has allowed them to continue to expand and offer new and interesting product parts, upgrades, and accessories.  The ability of small businesses to R&D is ultimately tied to revenue and profits as unlike massive corporations or startups spending others money, they can't afford to suffer fiscal year losses or else they can't make payroll, let alone do anything else...

Regarding Bonesteel, I have no idea.  BUT I can't find any LLC listing on the corporate database listings and/or name conflict on Michigan Department of Commerce website.  So it's probably jsut a sole proprietor where he threw the LLC on his website...  If Bonesteel was a DBA name for another LLC, he likely couldn't legally use "LLC", uncertain of exact Michigan laws though and definitely can't use the legal term "LLC" if he's DBAing himself. But regardless, Bonesteel's business setup, beyond its functional inadequacies on our customer experience side, isn't germane to any of the points I made.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 11:36:41 PM by RSR »

Offline Ohio_OJ

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2014, 08:26:41 PM »
Chris contacted me and my rail has shipped, I ordered in early July so their is hope.

Offline sddtx

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2014, 08:51:42 PM »
Ordered July 13. Got a call tonight that mine should ship tomorrow.

Offline Cheapo

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 10:43:21 PM »
I ordered mine in September, and he said he was hoping to have mine by December. Seems optimistic based on their past turn around times, but we'll see. Let us know how you guys like them!

Offline RSR

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 08:52:50 PM »
Well, into the 20s of July apparently.  My order is on its way.

Offline Kolme

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 09:04:36 PM »
I was Aug4th... Seems like I'll be waiting through December at best... :/

Offline Doublegunner

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Re: Bonesteel Arms availability
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2014, 09:23:32 PM »
I ordered mine in July, it shipped yesterday-November 20.