What Would You Like To See From Manticore Arms

[jb2sea]

Agree with the general thought pattern here.  Something that does not require an adapter is what I would be interested in as well.  Because they charge too much for a simple adapter.   I'd rather see a $20 adapter hit the market than another stock design. 

I haven't really tried the folder yet, other than firing for function.  I'm going to work on it today to pad it and wrap it, then see how it does.  If I don't like it, I guess I'll buy the straight adapter, buffer tube, and a Magpul CTR stock with cheek riser.

[Manticore_Arms]

OK guys, I am tracking you.  I don't necessarily understand the bias against the Stormwerkz hinge and adapter, but I will keep in mind that more VZ58 specific parts are what the small but rabid VZ owners are looking for.

Will probably be a bit before anything purely VZ58 specific is ready to go.

Sven
Manticore Arms

[Enthusiasm]

The 100 bucks for adapter and folding mechanism stings, To much.
I have owned the stormerks buffer tube adapter, it worked but I dont understand why it didn't use the stock screw and threaded part of the receiver. Sold it, would not buy again.
Also I am intirely sure that the removel of the stock folders on my new vz2008's will/would be a giant pain. using the hinge already provided and SECURELY attached  to these rifles Would be a huge added value.

[RSR]

Not a bias against the function but a bias against the cost.  A good stock will run $100+.  The hinge setups are all $100+ as well.  So that's a $200+ investment.  And I think folks are generally happy w/ the stormwerkz adapter plus aftermarket stock availability but since the stormwerkz requires a dremel and fitting on a lot of guns (a pita and a trip to the gunsmith for a lot of folks... +another $100), it's pretty stiff a barrier to entry. 
And the total cost of a stock setup being $200+ for existing options other than the polymer fab (~$120) and the OE wood/beaver fixed stock ones (~$100 these days, plus $20 UTG or Apex butt pad extension) which is the mid price point.  Even the czech aftermarket folding hinge mechanism to install the OE fixed stocks as folding runs $120+.
And then the budget is keeping the I bar folder and wrapping it w/ padding/paracord and then using a buttpad for less than $40 all in if you don't have any items on hand...

Since the OE hinge mechanism is perfectly robust and works well, I don't think it necessarily needs to be replaced (by not R&R you save any potential receiver to adapter and other fitting issues too -- just screw off and screw on essentially for the hinge pin nut). 
And if you can come in with a mid-level price point (you could sell your stocks at the same price as others in the $100 range, yours just wouldn't require an adapter and hinge) with steel internals, you'd really have differentiated yourself in the market.  I think the fab stock is ugly and just have been unable to subscribe...  But I think their pricepoint of ~$120 is the ballpark you should aim to bring your stock to market at fully installed however it is you design it all to come together...  If really unique/spectacular, I'd think you could probably not loose many customers if you keep it under $150, but beyond that I would suspect you'll have a significantly smaller customer base just due to cost. 

Lastly, please recall that folks are buying the VZ2008s @ ~$300 once accounting for the value of accessories...  And somewhat like the AK mentality w/ furniture, convincing folks to spend more on the stock than they did the gun is a tough sell.  The forend is the same story, but due to heat that's kind of a "have to" if you plan to shoot your gun a lot...  And the fab polymer is the midprice option  there and probably moves a lot of units.

[RSR]

Thinking further.  You could do a universal like you have designed, and then just a design a hinge plate for it to screw into that connects to the receiver side of the existing hinge...  That way you have a "universal stock" if you're worried about limiting your market too much with that production and could do smaller runs of a hinge plate...  Just thinking out loud. 

And then you have two products...  But devil's advocate, by selling as two separate pieces, you're also potentially losing some of the VZ58 market for folks that decide to run an ace or whatever on your hinge plate...  And conceptually since stocks sell @ higher costs it's probably also a higher profit product than the hinge plate...

[Brasky]

The design he currently has looks like it would work over the factory stock. Just make the top tube and butt pad area larger. Have it be a two piece and the butt pad area can help good it together in addition to some bolts or similar along the side

[Manticore_Arms]

I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:

Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S.  made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country. 

The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.

Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S. 

If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58.  It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part. 

Sven
Manticore Arms

[Knife Wounds]

I do not own any of your products Sven but I recognize you from the AK world.  At face value I think this forum only contacts a small subset of VZ58 owners.  A 400$ rifle is also likely to SOMEtimes attract the value concious buyers,  so the value customer most likely will not buy top quality semi custom components that you mill, test, and sell.

But there are a wide variety of owners in the VZ gun owner subset.  The vz2008 has the markets attention right now,  but purists for example that buy Czekpoints will be a natural market for your accessories.

I have no problem putting accessoris on my vz2008 that cost as much as the gun because due to market forces I realize this gun is abnormally cheap.  The VZ2008 is a "hih value" buy.  Its a gun that should cost more but doesnt, awesome! If arsenal AK's were $375 the value owners would still balk at a 160$ folding stock.  While the SBR crews went crazy with them.

The VZ world is n need of handguard options,  extended bolt and mag releases.  How about something crazy like a clip on magazine extender?  Its hard to compete with the surplus mags,  nobody has competed successfully yet.

[CitizenPete]

I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:

Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S.  made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country. 

The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.

Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S. 

If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58.  It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part. 

Sven
Manticore Arms

Sven:

After hanging out here on this forum for about a year, I can tell you there are  value mindsets at far extremes.  Some are happy to put a 250 stock on their CSA VZ58 that cost them $1000+.  Yet others who found their way here after aquiring a $400 PSA deal feel spending is based on what the cost of the part is compared as a percentage of the cost of the original rifle (e.g. "why would I pay $NNN for a quad rail when I only spent $NNN on my rifle.") IMO that is some bizzare logic, but there you have it.

A functional military grade folding stock from FAB Defense with a metal hinge (that was manufactured under license by IMI) costs 350 http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0.

I personally have no problem spending $250 for a stock, heck a nice set of vintage wood furniture goes for $180-$250.

I personally think your on the correct path with your design.  I also like the comments on here regarding the use of the VZ58V wire stock base and designing a hinge to fit it.  If I could integrate the EVO 3 S1 stock style design into my VZ58 I certainly think that it would be worth 300.

[Manticore_Arms]

I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:

Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S.  made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country. 

The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.

Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S. 

If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58.  It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part. 

Sven
Manticore Arms

Sven:

After hanging out here on this forum for about a year, I can tell you there are  value mindsets at far extremes.  Some are happy to put a 250 stock on their CSA VZ58 that cost them $1000+.  Yet others who found their way here after aquiring a $400 PSA deal feel spending is based on what the cost of the part is compared as a percentage of the cost of the original rifle (e.g. "why would I pay $NNN for a quad rail when I only spent $NNN on my rifle.") IMO that is some bizzare logic, but there you have it.

A functional military grade folding stock from FAB Defense with a metal hinge (that was manufactured under license by IMI) costs 350 http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0.

I personally have no problem spending $250 for a stock, heck a nice set of vintage wood furniture goes for $180-$250.

I personally think your on the correct path with your design.  I also like the comments regarding the use of the VZ58V wire stock base and designing a hing to fit it.  If I could integrate the EVO 3 S1 stock style design into my VZ58 I would certainly think that was worth 300.

I suspect that your are right, the Century VZ's and the Czechpoints seem to create a dual price structure market.

[Howlin Mad]

I think RSR and Enthusiam are on the right track, but needs some tweaking.  The idea of using the existing VZ folder hinge mechanism is a good one.  Make the stock as you envisioned to fit whatever adapters are already out there.  Then make an adapter plate that attaches to the new stock and replaces the folding part of the existing VZ stock leaving the non-pivoting part still attached to the receiver.  Just need a new nut because removing the original usually wrecks it.  Best of both worlds, affordable replacement stock and affordable adapter plate.

[Victor Zulu 58]

Ambidextrous safety, and a replacement screw for the folding stock that is broached for an Allen wrench - metric or imperial, I don't care. Geezus, I hate... HATE slotted hardware.
Here's a nugget - take a standard 30 round mag. Put a floorplate in it part way up so that it holds 5 rounds. The remaining bottom part of the mag has a hinged floorplate & can be used for storage. Call it the "last chance mag". Put a red skull & crossbones on it or something.
How about a universal adapter to make use of the bayonet fixture thingy... Bipod attachment, light or laser, adapter to use other bayonets.
Bolt carrier with threaded holes on both sides (1/4-28?) to accept different handle/s. Then upsell this with a few different charging handles.
Hmmm... The beaver barf stock is already hollow. How about different butt pads to customize length, AND incorporate storage? Mine's too short, no storage, and I gotta use a phillips to remove it.
Final one - plug replace beaver barf stock sling swivel with qr hole type (bonesteel rail has this).
Okay I'm done for now, good night.

[RSR]

Fab and ACE in my book would be your primary competitors.   ACE run ~$90.  w/ folder run ~$140.  Personally, a Galil was my first rifle so I lean to the ACE stocks...  Top of the line magpul stocks wholesale almost entirely under $100...

Cost-consciousness is why I suggested a shell for the existing folder.  Presumably plastic/polymer would be the cheapest to manufacture plus varying lengths of rubber buttpads...  And still meeting all the voids of the market...

I also think a universal stock hinge mechanism to mesh w/ existing folder would be pretty awesome -- the OE folders are almost entirely on century guns...

[RSR]

Ambidextrous safety, and a replacement screw for the folding stock that is broached for an Allen wrench - metric or imperial, I don't care. Geezus, I hate... HATE slotted hardware.

The one Czechpoint sells is an allen key (somewhere there is a post on these boards stating that they just haven't updated the picture)...  The same item is available from the Czech Republic if it's not in stock at Czechpoint...

[RSR]

Finally had a chance to look for the stock that this originally brought to mind -- the DPH Skeleton Stock: http://dpharms.com/products/ak-47_furniture/dph_arms_aluminum_stock_for_ace_skeleton_style_st0ck_systems.html

$69.99
DPH Original Skeleton Stock for all Saigas and AK47s. Machined from solid aluminum billet, oxide blasted and hard anodized. This stock is the strongest and highest quality skeleton stock available. Bolts on to all Receiver Blocks and the Tromix weld on back plate. A Folding Mechanism can be added to easily fold your stock to one side. Made in the USA and counts for 1 US compliant part Stock is 9 inches long and weighs 8ozs. NOTE: This stock requires that the FCG has been moved forward of factory setup for use on all Saiga rifles and shotguns. Manufactured by DPH Arms

But looking at it now, I also get flavors of the ACE Socom:

(M4S) ACE M4 SOCOM Stock
Approximately 6 times stronger than an AR15 A-2 stock & receiver extension tube. Ideal for CQB or breaching doors, without the fear of bending the receiver extension tube. Adjustable length of pull, adjusts from 7.5? to 9.5? (standard version) or 9.5? to 11.5? (long version) in five 1/2? increments. Closed cell foam overtube provides an extremely comfortable cheek weld.

SKU: A150/A160
$199.99

Obviously, it also mimics the czech polymer overlay of our folders, which runs about $150 not counting foreign shipping:


Recognizing these pricepoints and the market being what it is is why I suggested what I did.  If you're looking to be more than $150, I think you have to compete w/ the Socom feature set, primarily being adjustable length of pull addition as well as a better cheek riser option...

Instead of a new stock if you focused on rubber buttpads, fasteners, and some injection molded casing, I'd think you'd still have a pretty hefty profit margin at just what others charge for complete stocks -- while still saving your customers 1/2 of where they'd be otherwise due to not needing to buy an separate adapter and hinge...  And if you needed to mold around folding stocks/with the stock in the mold, I certainly think a refundable "core" deposit option of an add'l $50 or so dollars would be fair too.  Stocks should fit in the $12 USPS priority long version of the medium flat rate box.