Author Topic: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD  (Read 7992 times)

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Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2014, 02:09:00 AM »
I'm using Lee dies, and I using the powder through expander with the Pro disk on top.  I did notice that the bullets I had pulled completely (by accident) and reworked were resized to .451.  They were originally .452 so maybe I should get the 45 colt expander plug offered by Lee?  Or is there a better option to retain the bullet diameter through the loading process using Lee classic turret?  I am having slight leading issues (when they feed properly) but that was with the FCD die that was resizing the bullet more so than the taper crimp die for sure.  The barrel slugs at .451 so I was hoping to maintain the .452 lead diameter.

Cheers,
Jonah
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Offline noylj

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 02:38:24 AM »
If the bullet is being swaged down, you need a larger expander. You are also likely to get bullets seated crooked and cause a bulge in the case near the base of the bullet that will prevent chambering.
Lee makes customs expanders, and their .45 Colt dies may be the same diameter as the .45 Auto dies.
You can also, if you have an extra station, install an additional expander die. Two expanders will expand a thousandths or two larger, in my experience, maybe due to overcoming some of the case spring back.

Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 08:26:36 PM »
I contacted Lee to see how to get an oversized expander plug.  The response I got was more confusion:

Quote
Don't take offense, just need to clarify a few things first to determine the avenue we have to take.
Are you sizing your bullets to .452 and have you measured them?
You say you are using Lee carbide dies. Are using a Lee Taper Crimp Die or a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?
Before we look at the expanding plug, we should look at the factory crimp die. The expanding plug opens the case mouth to accept the bullet, it doesn't open the case for the bullet. The crimp die could be the concern. The carbide ring in the FC die should not be undersizing to .351 (typo). So let me the answers to the above questions and we should be able to figure this out.

Thank You,
Jim
Customer Service

I responded with more information but have not got a response from Lee.

So has anyone used the Colt expander plug for 45 ACP?  Is the Colt expander plug larger in diameter?  I've read online that you can use the 38 expander plug in the 9mm die and it will allow for larger diameter cast lead bullet seating.

Is the 45 ACP a straight wall case?  The Saami spec shows it has a slight taper.  Wonder if I could back off the sizing die to get larger case diameter?  I'm I over thinking this?  I really want to keep the Lee expander system with the Powder through drop.

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 06:20:59 PM »
Can't help you with Lee die / expander issues. I don't have any Lee dies to look at so I can advise you.

The 45ACP has such a slight taper that you'd need to back off more than a few 1/8 turns to achieve the effect you want. In fact you'd miss sizing about 1/2 the total length of the case. That in itself would create new issues.
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 09:34:04 PM »
So I ordered a 45 Colt expander plug and a 38 S&W expander plug from Lee.  $3.00 dollars a piece was cheap enough for me to take a chance on the 45 Colt expander.  As Noylj thought, the 45 Colt expander has the same expander dimensions as the 45 ACP, it is just a shorter plug overall.  This doesn't help me.  The 38 S&W expander is a drop in replacement for the 9mm expander for those that load lead.  It will open up the case for the oversized 9mm bullets (.357) so you don't resize the bullets during seating.  I've tested it and my 9mm bullets are maintaining their diameter through the loading process.

Lee did get back to me finally (after I ordered and received my expander plugs).  They will make a custom expander plug to suit your needs for $30 plus shipping.  I think I will pass for now since this supply of lead SWC bullets is waning and my next bullet (Black and Blue Coated 200 No Lube Groove SWC) seems to hold up better through the loading process (looks very good by the way).

I did make it out and shoot the cartridges that I reworked and they all fed and shot without issue.  I think it was a crimp issue and I have learned that you need to make sure you have the right amount of crimp to ensure proper feeding.  I wish I didn't have to learn that lesson during a match!

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline Williamb

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 10:09:20 PM »

You should be aware that there was apparently a run of 97B barrels where the chamber was both short and out of round......my 2013 97B was one of them.  A quick trip to my 1911 smith and reaming the chamber to the specs he uses on his custom 1911s in .45ACP solved that issue.       


[Modified for clarity]


I had the same issue where the chamber was short. David fixed it for me and had it back to me the same week. My hand loads were well within SAAMI spec. And worked in all my 45s.  Once I got the barrel back from David It was good to go. David is at Cajun gun works if u need this solution.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:11:51 PM by Williamb »

Offline 57K

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2015, 01:43:09 PM »
I haven't read every post, but there's really no need to. First, the best cartridge gauge is your pistols barrel. A case gauge is simply a go-no go gauge, and while it will tell you if you need more crimp or the case-head is over-dimension, it can still "Pass" an over-length load. That's what I suspect your problem is.

A lot of guys like to run 200 gr. SWCs at 1.250 - 1.260" in 1911s, but in my experience with pistols like the XDm and Ruger SR45, they don't like loads that long and they may be causing a slight out-of-battery condition. For these pistols, I reduced OACL to 1.240" and I suspect that the 97BD is similarly throated. Again, something a case-gauge can not tell you. One reason you'll notice that with their 200 gr. SWC Lyman recommends an OACL of 1.235". And while it might be slightly different than commercially cast bullets that come from Magma equipment, the differences are too slight to be concerned with, IME. I use the Lyman data for MBC and BulletWorks 200 gr. SWCs and they cast the Magma style 200 gr. SWC.

Another thing, you really don't need to crimp cast lead bullets and I simply would not use a LEE FCD. It post sizes and can reduce the bullet's diameter that will result in leading with Cast bullets. Use a conventional taper crimp die and only remove the flare from the expanding operation. Check to see that it easily drops into the barrel, muzzle down. If you want to crimp to aid feed reliability, no more than .001" is needed and it's rare indeed that a combination of a .452" bullet and cases will give a case-mouth diameter of .473" which is the SAAMI max. and what your case gauge will pass. To put it bluntly, case gauges are a waste of time and money when it comes to loading for autoloading pistols. The ultimate test will always be YOUR barrel and chamber. Those are the dimensions you must load for. If you load for multiple pistols, load for the one with the tightest chamber and they should work fine in all of your same caliber pistols.

And, because of the variations in case-wall thickness among different brands of brass, use the method recommended by companies like Western Powder Co. and data Manuals like SIERRA's. Double case-wall thickness (I measure within 1mm of the case-mouth) and add the actual bullet diameter. This will tell you what the average case-mouth diameter will be after simply removing the flare. Say that ends up at .472" and it doesn't hurt anything to taper crimp by .001" if you feel it's necessary for better feed reliability, because you are turning the case-mouth into the bullet rather than leaving it square, your average finished case-mouth diameter, post taper crimp would be .471".

I generally don't fuss a lot about getting SWC loads correct and use little to no taper-crimp on cast or poly-coated bullets. But for competition, I would consider that if case-wall thicknesses are different enough on average, it might be worthwhile to segregate cases by headstamp. Even then you're gonna have variations in case-wall thickness and the best you can do is find the average. Pick 10 or so random cases from the different brands you have and go with the average for each. When brands are within say .001", it probably isn't necessary to segregate them. But where you'll find many brands at .011" and sometimes slightly thicker, you'll also run it cases like Rem's where thickness can be .009" or less. Obviously, that would mean differences in the average case-mouth diameter. Some choose to ignore it, or go to extreme's like the U-Type dies. Myself, I don't buy tools for conditions that shouldn't exist in the first place, and such extremes are unnecessary when you know that your expander button should be at least .002" below the diameter of the bullets you're actually loading and .003" won't hurt a thing. Generally, this will not be a problem when using cast bullets that must be at least .001" over the barrel's groove diameter in order to prevent leading regardless of alloy or BHN. With Poly-Coated, and one reason I recommend them is that they won't lead the barrel if they are slightly undersized or at groove diameter. Only slugging the bore will give you groove diameter, but that's only essential with lead bullets, cast or swaged.

Didn't mean to write a thesis, but this is an area that a good many handloaders have problems with. At an OACL of 1.260" for a 200 gr. SWC, when there's functioning issues, it is very often the result of an OACL that's not suited to your pistol. Try 1.250" and see if that works. If not, try 1.245" and 1.240". If you load with Lyman data and have to go down as low as their recommendation of 1.235" used to record cartridge pressures, it won't hurt a thing with a similar style SWC from a commercial caster. The differences in chamber pressure will be moot. Just make sure you're looking at the correct Lyman 200 gr. SWC because there are 2 with 1 getting loaded lighter and a good bit shorter. The one I'm speaking of specifically is the #452630. And at .470" at the case-mouth, you're feed issue has nothing to do with the taper crimp. That's more than enough for your barrel and will pass any case gauge. 

Forgot something. In older manuals like my SPEER #11, they mention the rule-of-thumb for seating SWCs and recommend that the shoulder be 1/32" above the case mouth. .031" and even at 1.240 & 1.235" you should be fine. ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:04:10 PM by 57K »
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Offline loyloyola

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 06:44:25 PM »
wow, lots of great info here!

Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2015, 08:08:00 PM »
57K thanks for the detailed response.

I ultimately concluded that it was a crimp issue.  I had switched from the FCD to the taper crimp die and didn't get the taper crimp dialed in all the way.  I was crimping to ~0.472 and I'm now crimping to ~0.470 and they feed and function great.  The main reason for switching to the taper crimp die was to hopefully eliminate the slight leading observed with the lead loads.  The FCD die definitely was resizing the bullet down during the crimp operation.

I think when using the SWC bullet you should use the length to shoulder in place of the OAL.  That is the important measurement that would be more universal across bullet brands/profiles.  Your 0.031 (case mouth to shoulder) + 0.898 (case length) gives an ideal length to shoulder of 0.929 inches.  I'm currently loading to shoulder length of ~0.940 and they feed and function great.  It's not as easy to get that measurement though so ultimately the OAL is still probably better used.

I'm currently loading only Federal cases all purchased at the same time (mostly).  I haven't spent much time characterizing the variation in the case wall thickness but since I'm loading a single brand I assume it's better than not sorting by headstamp.  I think I'm getting a consistent crimp/bullet case interference with this setup.

I'm still a newb to reloading and I really appreciate this forum and its members willing to share your knowledge on the subject!

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline noylj

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2015, 09:51:59 PM »
Just remember, the cartridge overall length (COL) in a manual is NOT a recommendation. It is simply what they used and should be considered the minimum COL the data applies to. In most cases, I suspect, that just like SAAMI uses a very short COL for testing (thus, making the tests a worst case), the test lab does the same with COL.
As you say, your barrel is the real case gage.

Offline 57K

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2015, 10:35:06 PM »
You're welcome tdogg!

noylj is correct about OACL recommendations. It's mostly about pressure testing and it is a form of worse-case-scenario where a shorter length is given because the data provider knows that that length will work for the greatest number of pistols, short chamber or long chamber. In this case however, 1.235" that Lyman uses, where there's not enough difference between the commercially cast Magma style bullets to concern yourself with, is not what I'd call short. Not compared to their #452460 where the OACL used is 1.161". It's more of a target bullet even though some higher than necessary velocities are shown whereas the #452630 has greater utility by the number of things it can be used for: Target to Gun Games.

Anyway, glad you got the issue resolved and it is a bit unusual that a .472" case-mouth would cause feeding issues, but once again, more reason to load for the individual pistol's chamber rather than an arbitrary case-gauge.

Good to see the observations your making! You can never use too much precision, IMO, and to tell you the truth, I've never thought much about the distance from the case-rim to the shoulder even though I've used the rule-of-thumb for many years. Old dog learns new trick!

Using a single brand of cases is a great convenience and there's certainly nothing wrong with Federal, IME. Remington's are only used for my cast/poly-coated bullet loads. Winchester is good and what I have the most of. I'm particularly fond of S&B and have never had any problems priming them. Some complain about tight primer pockets and I was thinking about that the other day while I was loading on my Classic Turret with the LEE Safety Prime. No complaints from me and a tight primer pocket is always better than a loose primer pocket. Fiocchi is also good brass including the G.F.I. that's made by Fiocchi. Enough guys buy the factory loads of S&B and Fiocchi without picking up their cases after firing that I pick them up with mine and sometimes when my shooting partner runs across a good deal on either brand he buys them because he knows that I'll reload the cases. He's been handloading for a couple of years now, but tends to buy more guns than I do and will occasionally buy factory plinking ammo for expediency to the range.

Personally, I'd like to see more newer reloaders learning to taper crimp. It's just not that difficult, but I'll admit to a preference for REDDING dies and particularly their taper crimp and profile crimp dies for revolvers that applies both a taper crimp and a roll crimp, or, taper crimp alone for cases like light .38 Sp. Target loads where some prefer not to roll crimp with wadcutters. Anyway, it's a fundamental thing in my opinion and I'm glad you have a handle on it!  ;)
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