Author Topic: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD  (Read 3715 times)

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Offline tdogg

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Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« on: December 06, 2014, 08:19:28 PM »
I learned a few things today...

First lesson: When making any changes to loads make sure you test them before using them in competition.
Second lesson:  The Factory Crimp die and Taper Crimp die are different tools and their output isn't the same.
Third Lesson:  A flat anvil works best with the flat nose on SWC bullets. 

I tried to shoot a match with my 97BD today and kept getting failures to feed using some 200 gr SWC's.  Two of the failures left a pretty good mark on the rim of the case mouth.  In the first two stages I was forced to drop the mag and rack the slide to clear the jam.  It wasn't a simple re-rack or bump and go to clear the feed issue.  Needless to say I had to go to my SP01 in 9mm to finish out the match.

Previous batches loading these I loaded these bullets were done using a Lee Factory crimp die with an OAL of 1.26 inches.  I don't recall what I was crimping them to using the factory crimp die.  I'm pretty sure that I wasn't imparting any crimp but the sizing ring was removing the bell and resizing the bullet/case down to ~0.470 inches.  With the taper crimp die I was crimping down to 0.472 only.  I switched to the taper crimp die to try and maintain the bullet diameter during the crimp process (to hopefully improve accuracy).  Upon inspection of the failed rounds I needed to crimp more as there was still a very slight bell to the mouth of the case.  There was no doubt that the amount of crimp (0.472) was leaving a mark o the 0.452 lead SWC bullets.  I was under the impression that you needed to crimp enough to remove the bell but not enough to leave a mark in the bullet.  This will not be possible with the 0.452 SWC lead bullets.

I was a little perplexed how my OAL was varying so much during seating these bullets.  It seemed that every 5 or so I would have one that seated deeper than the rest by about 5-10 thousandths.  These were my first all lead bullets.  Upon close inspection the nose of the SWC on these bullets didn't have as much of a round on it.  This caused the bullet to be seated deeper in the case upon seating with the round anvil in the seating die.  I had purchased another anvil from Lee for the seating die and ground the round profile flat to better seat the flat nose bullets.  Using the flat anvil, my OAL variation went to about +/- 1 thousandths.

Does anyone have experience using SWC's in 97BD?  If you had to guess would you pick the OAL change or the crimp change that would have caused my feeding/jamming issues.  I have been using these bullets for both practice and competitions up until this point without issue so it has to be one or both of my changes.

I pulled the remaining bullets out and reseated them to 1.26 inches and then recrimped them to 0.470 inches using the taper crimp die.  I can't load them any longer they don't pass the plunk test.  I'm at about 5-10 thou off the lands at 1.26 inches.  That was one of the reasons for seating them deeper for these latest batches.  With the bullet seated to 1.25 the shoulder of the SWC is just barely past the case mouth.  I think that the lack of shoulder along with the slight bell on the mouth was letting the case hang up on the top of the chamber.

Anyways I haven't had a chance to test the reworked cartridges yet but I have been using the barrel as a case gauge to ensure they pass the plunk test.  Hopefully I can get a combination that works with the SWC as I like the really round holes on the targets.  I guess I can just go back to the factory crimp die if needed.

Sorry for the long winded post.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline nicky

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2014, 09:30:28 AM »
     I could be wrong but if I remember correctly just a thumbs nail of the shoulder of the SWC should be past the case mouth.
     Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2014, 09:36:14 AM »
Toby -
Not to worry. These are all issues that every reloading competitor has to go through. I went through many of the same experiences. Here are some helpful hints...

Quote
First lesson: When making any changes to loads make sure you test them before using them in competition.
Second lesson:  The Factory Crimp die and Taper Crimp die are different tools and their output isn't the same.
Third Lesson:  A flat anvil works best with the flat nose on SWC bullets. 

? Excellent !! You're on your way.  To that I would add one more... Use a cartridge gauge on every competition round before putting them in the plastic box. Rounds that have passed the gauge "plunk test" get a red check mark at my house. This distinguishes them from plinking or simple test rounds.


Les dimensions de la cartouche SAMMI

Quote
With the taper crimp die I was crimping down to 0.472 only.

? The 0.473" mouth dimension given in the reloading book diagram is the Maximum allowable. You need to be .002-.003 smaller than that number in order for every bullet to "fall" into the chamber. Using a cartridge gauge will prove that to you.


Finding this round just cut my stage time by 10 seconds... and I've not even left the house

Quote
I was under the impression that you needed to crimp enough to remove the bell but not enough to leave a mark in the bullet.  This will not be possible with the 0.452 SWC lead bullets.

? You've confused the "expected result" with the "No. 1 rule". Use your Lee Taper Crimp Die to get the cartridge mouth down to 0.470 inches. THEN, the indent on the bullet should be insignificant. But by staying away from the Lee FCD, at least you won't be re-sizing the whole bullet. If there happens to be a mark on the bullet, then at least it will be minimal and localized, and therefore not likely to affect your bullet-to-barrel fit, thus accuracy.

If you'll go back in the threads in which this statement was originally made, you'll see that this observation was made in reference to plated bullets, of which it is extremely important NOT to break through the copper cladding. Plated bullets would be .002" smaller than the lead examples you're using. In fact, your lead bullet may end up with a ring, but it is of small import when compared to chambering the round. Consider.... if you can't chamber the round, then the presence of a ring on the inside of the case is of VERY small import.

Quote
Does anyone have experience using SWC's in 97BD?

? The dimensions for SWC in 1911 have been cast in stone for 100 years. Since the 1911 is fairly picky about OAL, just a hunch would tell me to start with the same exact OAL and load data already in your manual. Generally SWC rounds have the shoulder of the bullet above the case mouth by ~.030-.035 inches.


This is a depiction of SWC in 9mm, but the rules are the same

Quote
I pulled the remaining bullets out and reseated them to 1.26 inches

? In cartridges with no roll crimp, you may simply run them back through the press to achieve a shorter OAL. Disassembling ammo represents a lot of hard work to no real advantage. And certainly, there's no need to pull out the FCD just to get the correct crimp diameter. Not to discourage in any way, but IMHO you are now 'backing up'. In Star Trek parlance, "This does not compute." Que the 'moanback' soundtrack.  ;D


Hope this helps, because you have the right equipment and technique, and are very close to making perfect competition ammo. Hopefully this info just might put you 'over the top' on these last few issues. At least that's my sincere intent.

   ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 02:12:22 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 04:28:58 PM »
Thanks Wobbly!

It sounds like you think that the amount of crimp is the culprit to my failures.  I have another 100 rounds that I was going to rework.  Should I just re-crimp them down to 0.470 and see if they feed properly?  Or should I pull them out to the longer 1.26 OAL and re-crimp them to 0.470?

A couple of clarifications:

I tried not to pull the bullets completely (sometimes one wack with the hammer pulled the bullet completely), just enough to reseat them longer to 1.26 inches (from 1.25 inches).  This was because I thought I didn't have enough shoulder above the case mouth.  With these Bedwell 200 gr SWC bullets when seated at 1.25 OAL the amount above the case mouth is ~0.025-0.03 (some shorter still due to roundness of nose differences and subsequent shorter OAL).  You confirmed that I need to seat them longer to get the recommended 0.03-0.035 inch distance to shoulder.

I can't find any load data for these Bedwell Lead bullets.  The Lyman manual says to seat the 200 gr SWC to  1.235 which is too short.  My Hornady manual says to seat them to 1.245 which is also too short.  My Speer manual says to seat them to 1.275 which is too long for the CZ chamber.  I think that for these bullets the magic OAL is 1.255 to 1.26 inches.  Maybe Santa will bring me a cartridge gauge for XMas, for now my barrel will do.

One other reason I started using the Taper crimp die was I had small amounts of leading when shooting these.  I think the complete bullet resize with the FCD was the root cause of my leading issues as it was reducing the bullet diameter.  I will have to see if that goes away with these batches that I used the Taper crimp die on.

I only have ~1-2 hundred more of these so I shouldn't spend too much time tinkering but I really like the SWC for targets (nice round hole).  I think I will order more (most likely Black and Blue coated) and will use these learnings to dial in the new bullet.

Thanks again for your help!

Cheers,
Toby



Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 07:31:54 PM »
Toby -
? If you want to seat at 1.260" (and that number sticks in my mind as what I've used) then...
? Elongate with a kinetic hammer or re-seat shorter until you get that OAL, then
? Use the basic taper crimp die to get them down to .470" (*See note below).

? You can use the load data from ANY book that's showing 200gr lead for an OAL shorter than what you're using. All that matters is the weight (200gr) and construction (lead). The brand name has zero affect. The powder is pushing weight, not the marketing department. Therefore, you can safely use the load data from your Lyman book.

? For 45ACP, the 200gr SWC IS the standard target round. Period. Whether you pursue more SWC right now is up to you, but you WILL be back to them at some point.



NOTE:
Brass has a certain spring-back quality which may cause you to scratch your head. Set the TC die and run all the oversize cartridges on hand. Usually you only need to adjust the TC die once a year. However, on your next production run you may find that your TC diameter is way off. This will be because to squeeze from 0.473 to 0.470 *may* take a different setting from new production that will be squeezing from (say) 0.480 to 0.470". It is not the die going bad, it is simply one of the qualities of the metal we know as "brass". Once into regular production with the TC die set to 0.470", then you'll be in the once-a-year zone.


Hope this helps!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 07:37:19 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline cdhbrad

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 10:01:25 PM »
I shoot the same 200gr SWC reload in my CGW 97BE that I use in all my .45 ACP 1911s.  I don't measure an OAL, but measure the length from the seated shoulder of the bullet to the base of the case and anything from .930-.935 works in all my .45ACP guns.  This will yield an OAL of about 1.250.  I crimp everything to .469-.470.  Try this and see if it will "plunk" in your 97B barrel (better than any case guage Santa may bring you).  I have 6 pistols that shoot .45ACP and the dimensions I use result in a load that will work in all of them.     

You should be aware that there was apparently a run of 97B barrels where the chamber was both short and out of round......my 2013 97B was one of them.  A quick trip to my 1911 smith and reaming the chamber to the specs he uses on his custom 1911s in .45ACP solved that issue.       


[Modified for clarity]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 04:15:57 AM by Wobbly »

Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 11:26:02 PM »
Thanks Brad.  How would I go and inspect the chamber to verify it's within spec?  Is there anything specific to look at?

Wobbly, that is exactly what I did, reseated to 1.26 and crimped down to .470.  I really like the SWC and I seem to shoot it well.  The best piece of info you shared was the 0.030-0.035 inch distance from the case mouth to bullet shoulder.  That was the info I couldn't find anywhere (or didn't know how to search for it).  I can translate that to an OAL for my next SWC bullet when the time comes.  Oh and I will keep an eye on my crimp, I should have stated that this is all with Federal brass that is new (factory pull down from american reloading).  I'm going to have to look at the crimp again once I get through all of it and it's once fired as opposed to new.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 04:32:40 AM »
I crimp everything to .469-.470.  Try this and see if it will "plunk" in your 97B barrel (better than any case gauge Santa may bring you).


Yes, agreed, in ALL cases the barrel is the ultimate arbiter and judge.  The barrel is "she who must be obeyed".

But, for the competitor who loads ammo week after week after week, an inexpensive LE Wilson cartridge gauge can save you a lot of gun dis-assembly, time, and trouble.  Doubly so if you keep your guns in a safe.  A cartridge gauge can be left out on the bench; a gun cannot.


How would I go and inspect the chamber to verify it's within spec?  Is there anything specific to look at?


Simply drop in ammo that's known and verified to be within spec.  Unfortunately, out-of-round is a condition you cannot measure with a 2-point micrometer or caliper.  To check roundness requires a 3-point tool OR that the barrel be spun between centers and runout measured with an indicator.  In your case, a test cartridge checked by a cartridge gauge can itself become a gauge.  If a test cartridge drops in-and-out of the cartridge gauge and also spins freely in the gauge, AND does the same of the barrel, then the barrel can be assumed to not be undersized.  It may be over-sized, but it can't be undersized.

Elementary, my dear Watson.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 04:54:33 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 08:11:09 PM »
I'm going to take my barrel into work and check dimensions.  If I can't get them with Vee blocks and a test dial indicator, I'll get them with the smart scope.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 08:35:11 PM »
Had a chance to find my 45ACP loading notes tonight. Looks like I've loaded various 200gr SWC from 1.230 up to 1.260".  Berry was the shortest.  But as was said, more important than the OAL is to get that consistent shoulder exposure.

 ;)
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 08:55:28 PM »
I measured a few last night and at an oal of 1.26 my shoulder height is about .940 or .040 past the case mouth.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline cdhbrad

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 09:38:40 PM »
Put together a few dummy rounds at about .930 and a .469 crimp and see if those would cycle in your 97B.  I know they would in mine.

Offline tdogg

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2014, 03:34:50 PM »
So I checked the barrel using a Vee block and test indicator and it had about 2.5 -3 thousandths (total) eccentricity side to side (up down it seemed OK).  This was using the outside of the barrel as zero reference and that may be the issue.  I assume you would want the center of the bore as zero reference when checking the chamber.  The headspace is about .899 inch (spec .898-.920 inch) which is on the tight/short side.  Since I couldn't get an accurate diameter (its a tapered chamber), I used pin gauges to tell me what the diameter was at the case mouth/headspace rim.  I couldn't get the .476 inch diameter pin gauge to seat all the way into the headspace/case mouth but I could get the .475 inch diameter pin to seat completely (spec .4744 inch +.004 inch).  What does this all mean?  It probably meets spec but it is definitely on the short side for length.

I may call David at CGW and see if this is what he has seen and to see if there is anything he would recommend for this chamber?

First things first I need to get out and shoot my reworked (.470 crimp 1.26 OAL) cartridges and see if they feed properly.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2014, 09:54:27 PM »
IMHO your .0025-.0030 runout is the OD simply not being cut concentric to the bore. And there's no reason to really control that dimension any tighter, so I don't think that's abnormal. When you said you'd V-block the barrel, that's the exact result I thought you might get. You'd almost need a 7/16 expanding mandrel to fit in the bore and then support from the muzzle end to get the chamber concentricity.

The headspace may be tight, but it's within spec. Within spec is, well, within spec.

The SAMMI website might give you the spec on chamber dimensions, but as it is you got a minimum of .002 between the .475, and the max cartridge diameter of .473". So that sounds OK to me.

So the real proof is in the shooting. And I think you'll like what you see with the new feeding.

 ;)
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Offline noylj

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Re: Failure to Feed Using 200 Gr SWC in 97BD
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2014, 10:41:02 PM »
1) Pull the barrel
2) Seat the bullet long
3) Be sure that you use an expander that actually expands the case and not just flare the case mouth
4) Apply slight taper crimp to remove enough of the case mouth flare to allow the case to drop into the barrel (and have the bullet hit the lede/rifling)
5) Seat the bullet incrementally until the case  head is flush with the end of the hood. This is correct COL for YOUR barrel
6) Crimp to SAAMI dimension or no more than 0.002" smaller
Next, if you have trouble with the rounds chambering, perform a plunk test as follows:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long (for the .45 Auto with lead bullets, you want the SWC shoulder to just touch the lede though)
2) scratches on case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit. Best seating stems touch only the bullet's shoulder to help straighten the bullet during seating.
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.