Bren 805 vs VZ58

[RSR]

http://youtu.be/89YUohbzi1E

[RSR]

http://technet.idnes.cz/cz-805-bren-nova-zbran-pro-ceskou-armadu-dxn-/vojenstvi.aspx?c=A110202_004729_tec_technika_kuz

(google chrome translate)

Czech army buys a new rifle. We found out what was different from the old
Today Czech Army soldier uses a sub-machine gun. 58. It is the old more than fifty years, but many soldiers it still swear. Replacing it with a modular automatic assault rifle CZ 805 BREN.


New weapon for the Army of the Czech Republic introduced at a press conference,  Deputy Minister of Defense and Chief Executive Officer of Czech arms factory Lubomir Kovarik. Assault rifle CZ 805 BREN by the manufacturer meets all the needs of the 21st century soldier. The body of the gun is generally made ??from high strength aluminum alloys. The barrel is cold forged. The basic design is made ??for the charge 5.56 x 45 mm NATO.
What can a new rifle
With its modularity and uniform system of anchoring the main, however, is relatively easy (but not cheap) move to a different caliber. At the moment they are processed solution for ammunition 7.62 x 39 mm, perspective and 6.8 x 43 mm Rem SPC. The change involves the replacement of major caliber, bolt, gas tube and tray slot. All are mainly due to the thread on the mouth adapted for mounting flame dampers, silencers shot or attachments for practice shooting.
The modular system also allows you to adjust the weapon variants assault rifle (CZ 805 BREN A1) or carbine with shortened barrel (CZ 805 BREN A2). Carbines used mainly crew combat vehicles and operating various systems that require less bulky weapon and do not mind a shorter effective range, which is a tax for shortening the barrel. Carbine is more practical for fighting in a city where shootings take place at tens of meters and more compact weapon allows easier movement especially inside buildings, the hallways and stairwells.
Removable magazine well allows you to use the original transparent trays CZ, standardized containers for M4 / M16 or high-capacity drum magazine. A little surprising is that the magazine for 5.56 mm ammunition is virtually the same capacity as large as a reservoir for a more powerful caliber 7.62 mm. Interesting is the rim in the upper third of the cylinder. The question is how it will affect the rate of withdrawal from the reservoir pouch (ie cases bunkers).

Unified, easily removable trigger mechanism is provided with ambidextrous four-position shift key firing mode (pictured left). White dot is marked locked gun. Red dots shooting single shots, reduced dose and dose unlimited. Reversible also controls the magazine catch.
Along the entire length of the back is Picatinny rail MIL -STD -1913. Shorter bars are of the same type on both sides and the bottom. The default is calculated using the collimator sight ( collimator viewfinder translates into infinity shining point, which is shown together with the observed object. - pos. red .), so the weapon is equipped with a folding mechanical sights.
At Picatinny rails can be connected to a wide range of accessories, including the original grips combined with bipod. If they are short strips vacant, fastened with plastic covers on them for better grip.
Under the barrel can be mounted multipurpose knife attack. A little strange is that the blade is fixed up, because when the melee usually leads the first blow with the butt of a sec followed downward. Even when the reverse process, sek leads so that they can follow the blow with the butt. To carry weapons serve three-point support belt.
To increase the firepower of the cooperative is possible to equip a weapon overhead grenade launcher CZ 805 G1 charge for 40 x 46 mm with separate application. Simply connect the module with the butt. Practical rate of fire six rounds per minute. Lifetime 1000 grenade shots. The effective range of 400 meters.
The gun is equipped with a telescopic folding shoulder stock, so everyone can adjust the shooter holding a rifle as it suits him. Tension lever conclusion can be reversed for left and right handed. So far I have not had a chance to personally try an assault rifle. The video can be seen and zku?ensoti colleagues to confirm that the CZ 805 BREN A1 exhibits against vz.58 significantly smaller stroke while shooting bursts.

Rifle therefore has all the attributes of modern weapons. But that does not make it the best weapon. The new weapon must allow intuitive shooting. Controls must be comfortable, safe and unambiguous. This must demonstrate the accuracy and reliability.
Must be capable of shooting even in the long humid conditions, when contamination with mud, sand or dust. In this way they could to rely vz.58 submachine gun. If the CZ 805 BREN A1 these parameters will not show, and it is necessary to examine the long-term troop test in its entirety, they are just a waste of money and gamble with the lives of soldiers.
Tabuk technical data
     Type of weapons vz.58 CZ 805 BREN A FN SCAR L Standard Caliber (mm) 7.62 5,565,56N?boj (mm) 7,62x39 vz.435,56x45 NATO5,56x45 NATOHmotnost weapon without a cartridge (kg) 2,913,583,29Teoretick? cadence (shots / min) 800770625D?lka barrel (mm) 390360351??inn? range (m) 800 600 500
Differences in the effective range at first sight striking, but the explanation is simple. Methodology for evaluating this parameter is not the same for each brand. On average, a trained marksman reached a good sighting with a machine gun vz.58 roughly 400 meters. Assessment of options for the less powerful ammunition with a lighter bullet which is obviously sensitive to all environmental conditions, especially the wind will let each (light shot wind "blows" - Editor's Note) .
Unique data on cadence or weight. Who was in the army knows that every few hundred grams in weight kits is to know.
Today, soldiers used submachine gun model 58. And actually it's not a machine gun ...
Current sidearm Army of the Czech Republic, if it is not a specialist or a member of the Special Forces, constitute a weapon described as a submachine gun model 58. As its name suggests (vz.58), it's a weapon earlier than half a century. Not that it was bad, on the contrary, many soldiers swear to it, but for the time evolution has progressed somewhat.
Zazi designation "Tommy Gun" does not fully meet the definitions, because submachine gun is an automatic pistol ammunition. For weapons using shortened (less powerful) rifle ammunition we use the term assault rifle. A shortened variant of such weapons is called a carbine. However, for the purposes of article marking machine gun vz.58 hold on, because this weapon was officially introduced into the arms of the former Czechoslovak People's Army.

Over half a century, primarily introduced a smaller caliber. In the countries of NATO 5.56 mm, in the Soviet Union 5.45 mm. The reason was simple. It was found that most of the fighting takes place at a shorter distance, and 7.62 mm ammunition are unnecessarily powerful. In the same weight of ammunition soldier could carry more ammunition smaller caliber, or they carry the same, but saved weight could be replaced by another carried "cargo" (explosive spaci?ln? equipment, etc.)..
Of course, nothing is free , so the time it was discovered that in many situations, the projectile is 5.56 mm (5.45 mm) was too easy, and in some cases, soldiers prefer "scythe" 7.62 mm. On the other hand, Nadya said that this would be true in general, as they often try to foist some media readers. Always depended on specific combat situation.
Today, it is envisaged that the ideal caliber or charge will 6,8x43 mm Rem SPC. But opinions on the implementation of the new guns are not clear.
Weapons modern than the machine gun vz.58 are usually modified, or customizable for left-handers and produced as a "family of weapons." Most of the design team support weapon (gun), assault rifle, carbine. Machine guns tend to have longer and heavier barrel to withstand longer firing a shot received doses higher velocity and thus the accuracy and assertiveness. Machine guns derived from assault rifles tend to stack a larger number of rounds (but not required) and bipod for greater stability when shooting.

Other upgrades which submachine gun vz.58 lacks is the ability to fire fewer doses. Not every shooter has enough light finger on the trigger. For weapons with dose limiting it does not deal with the heat of battle. On the one pulling the trigger will fire up mostly 2-4 rounds.
Just in case vz.58 rifle shooting is slower dose wasting ammunition, because the weapon is light, especially in front of the center of gravity and without compensator barrel rises. In times CSLA situation could be partially remedied by gunfire with fixed bayonets. First, increased weight, center of gravity and the spine bayonet partly filled a role compensator stroke. Today we can buy compensators produced professionally.
Another novelty extended especially in the last decade Picatinny rail is standard NATO MIL-STD-1913th This "toothed piece of iron" allows for quick and easy mounting various accessories. Dvojno?ek, tactical flashlights, day, night, laser pointers or kolim?torov?ch, pa?bi?ek like.
In terms of firepower is an important possibility sagging single shot grenade enabling destroy targets for assault rifle ammunition enough. Original design submachine gun vz.58 this option was not. Today, producing a conversion kit.
What was on the rifle vz.58 unnecessary burden, the bayonet, which was really just a stabbing. Easily broke due to a thick blade with him nothing could be cut, even if it is sharpened. Possibility to consolidate rifle universal knife attack is much more practical.
In addition, there is progress on the field "user-friendly". Pleasant is the possibility of visual inspection of rounds in a transparent plastic container, the driver magazine catch fingers nearby shooting hand accelerates overcharging weapons as well as straight shaft, into which the container "bumps" such as the gun and may be tilted as vz.58.
At the damage is not possibility of connecting two reservoirs, possibly three, because it increases the speed and the shooter may not overcharge longer time to catch catfish in the next tray. A practical option is set by the size of the shoulder, or arms length shooter.


Weapons for the Czech army
The Ministry of Defence has ordered at Czech Zbrojovka further adjustments to the new machine guns. The company signed the second amendment to the contract under which the military arsenal adds thousands of new assault rifles CZ 805 Adjustments ordered soldiers on the basis of experience in foreign military missions. For modifications intended to improve the user experience will not pay cost you anything extra. Zbrojovka rifles should be delivered without delay in November according to the original assumptions, told reporters Bohuslav Dvorak from the Ministry of Defence.

New requirements of the Department of Defense were not part of the initial award of new machine guns. "There is no question of any change in the construction of the weapon. It is purely to increase user comfort soldier beyond what she wanted the army," said Dvorak.

Increased comfort when using the weapon was also part of the first amendment to the contract, which the Army has signed late last year. "Not all the requirements but could become the addendum number one, for that reason, intensive negotiations with the Czech arsenal to be able to make the most of these requirements to incorporate a weapon," said Dvorak.

The first announcement of the adjustments needed CZ 805 rifle complained Belgian company FN Herstal state, which ended in a tender for a new rifle second. Protested the Swedish company Aimpoint, which had a Belgian FN SCAR rifles for the Czech army supply optical equipment. Ministry of Defence, however, said that the company sees no reason to complain.

Czech arms factory since July ready to start supplying assault rifles in versions that military demands, said CEO Lubomir Kovarik. Editing by Kovarik armaments factory financially burden.

After delivery of the first rifles with them soldiers will intensively "getting used to". Around November, will be supplied soldiers to sharp weapons deployment, said Dvorak.

Assault Rifles CZ 805 chose defense a year ago in the tender as a weapon, which has in the arsenal of the Czech Army to replace the now obsolete machine guns pattern 58. The Army has signed a contract to supply nearly 8,000 new units last year.

The term "assault rifle" is a category of weapons. It is derived from the German guns StG 44 Sturmgewehr used at the end of WW2. As the assault rifle was in Czechoslovakia and later the Czech army introduced a submachine gun pattern '58.

Acquisition of new rifles, pistols and machine guns is part of a project to equip the Army "soldier of the 21st century." It is based largely on the requirements of foreign troops deployed in combat operations. The trend is according to the Ministry of Defence offload the military, miniaturization of various equipment, reducing their size and increasing efficiency.

Source: ?TK

[RSR]

http://www.cz805.cz/news/modernizace-sa-vz-58-versus-cz805/

Google Chrome Translation:

Modernization Sa vz.58 versus CZ805

February 3, 2011 13:08

If we ask the question, if it was infantry weapons modernization Sa vz.58 have to answer yes, was needed. If it was necessary to fully implement a new weapon in the army, I do not. Those who wanted to do missions for special weapons has usually received, HK, M4 and no more and territorial forces sufficient modernization of existing weapons. If we simplify what we expect from modernization Sa vz.58, we get an answer on these values.
1.Chceme maintain the current simplicity, functionality, low weight, reliability and logistical support by the current weapon has.
2. To now be able to add accessories, the possibility of easy assembly and collimator optics, improved controls, weapons, improving parameters when shooting dose variability newly caliber 5,56x45 NATO put a new weapon design. While maintaining the advantages of point 1.
 
First image: automatic rifle Sa vz.58 caliber 7,62x39 in the original.

 
Second picture: Redesigned automatic rifle Sa vz.58 caliber 5,56x45 NATO collimator M-RAD Meopta

 
The third picture: Redesigned automatic rifle Sa vz.58 caliber 5,56x45 NATO optical system ZDOT-DVMAG3 Meopta new bayonet BON, plastic tank 31 shots,


The fourth image: automatic rifle CZ 805 Bren caliber 5,56x45 NATO basic equipment without collimator

 
Modernization Sa vz.58 by our taxpayer was 25,000 apiece, we established a weapon already tried, should the parameters of modern weapons, established logistical support, the option caliber 5,56x45 NATO, user training, we went around the world weapons in established and reliable tradition.
Production of the first piece CZ805 cost approximately 200 million. System of interchangeable major in the field, znovunast?elen? simply nonsense to get a soldier dragged himself and exchanged himself. It's not proven, is not ready for this logistics, the gun does not significantly nothing new, but now one huge attention !!! The new CZ805's marketing and maybe even shop successful in competition abroad, must be proud brand introduction in the army, without the punch, it is unsalable thing do not make sense, but for the introduction CZ805 the army, Czech arsenal would be an uncomfortable situation . I believe that CZ805 will be one good weapon, the question is when, and how much it will cost more. What I however difficult rozd?ch?v? is the fact that our soldiers get the not so in Flint places where they is fundamentally about life.
If you compare the accuracy caliber 5,56x45 in both arms, no visible differences. Weight nastrojen?ch weapons in favor of Sa vz.58. Applicability tactical elements and the possibility of mounting the same. Reliability, quality, simplicity, serviceability, interchangeability of parts on Sa vz.58 significantly above CZ805 Bren. The possibility of shooting a short dose of automatically switching only CZ 805, I wonder why, if it is able to Sa vz.58 every professional. One major advantage of the production version to see the possibilities of using the weapon for left, clear controls, but which at the Sa vz.58 can also be realized.


V?ce zde: http://www.cz805.cz/news/modernizace-sa-vz-58-versus-cz805/
Vytvo?te si vlastn? str?nky zdarma: http://www.webnode.cz

[RSR]

http://e-republika.cz/article774-CZ-805-BREN-pohledem-skeptika

Google chrome translation:

CZ 805 BREN look Skeptic
The Czech army bought a beautiful new toy assault rifle CZ 805 BREN. I will not deny that I really like. I would definitely chose it for fun shooting on the range, but the war, if I had a choice, I'd prefer Sa vz.58.
Author: Martin Kopeck? - At Published: August 8, 2012 15:28

The Czech army bought a beautiful new toy assault rifle CZ 805 BREN. I will not deny that I really like. I would definitely chose it for fun shooting on the range, but the war, if I had a choice, I'd prefer Sa vz.58. In addition, the type designation guns makes me very unpleasant associations with hilarious Tatra 805. I guess I'm superstitious.

At first glance this is a very nice weapon modular design, precision made from quality materials renowned arsenal.

Assault rifles Sa vz.58 the Czech mercenaries in Afghanistan seemed a little sexy and beautiful enviously leered after the weapons of his colleagues in the mission, which appeared on commemorative photos "thicker" than their outdated "scythe". And so the most expensive Czech Rambo to be cool, vyk?ourali on "highly qualified" General Staff of the new assault rifles. More beautiful, more reliable, more versatile, modular and also significantly more expensive. A Armaments chiefs willingly listened to their cries. After all, when it comes to buying military equipment or weapons, is traditionally a state kasa wide open, regardless of whether what he buys is not necessary. From foreign blood does not flow.

CZ 805 BREN should be an assault rifle next generation unified caliber 5,56x45 NATO. About arrogant PR characteristic weapons "assault rifle soldier of the 21st century," but can be successfully doubt. Even the choice of caliber weapons and variability raises doubts. Caliber 5,56x45 NATO has high muzzle velocity (about 1050 m / s) with a minimum klesavost? shot, but it is prone to bias trajectory small obstacles, eg. Vegetation. Another malady ammunition 5,56x45 NATO missile is high reflectivity of solid objects and small punch, so in close combat in brick buildings and urban areas there is a high risk of injury to bystanders or even injury to the shooter himself reflected rotating own shot. Oh yuck, it hurts. Contemporary Armed Conflicts usually occur in urban areas and choice of caliber according to NATO standards, the army gives an own goal. In my opinion caliber 5,56x45 NATO, respectively. 223 Rem great for target shooting, do not present conflicts. Switching to a different caliber is complicated because in addition to mainly be replaced completely full conclusion and feeding mechanism, so that the original weapons, leaving only the frame.

I can not imagine (and I have a great imagination) as a soldier in the extreme conditions of a war zone, even under fire himself carried out extensive conversion of weapons and why. Converting weapon "Zeroing" because transfer to another requires ammunition ballistics because another new set of sights, all together will fit perfectly, nothing will "vrklat" and the whole thing will still work reliably. Is not it nice when things work in theory? The practice, however, is a bit different, more on that later. Furthermore, the argument about borrowing ammunition between friendly forces and rebuilding weapons according to the current state of the ammunition depot is ridiculous.

Overly complex variable mechanical devices usually suffer infirmity random failure, which resulted in these weapons, often times due to excessive complexity in mounting the modules themselves suffer from functional weapons. U modular kitchen robot mess with questionable functionality man probably angry, but not a life. For weapons, on which depends the life of a soldier, often the fate of his unit and his country, it p?ekombinov?n?m armaments literally gambling with lives. A soldier needs instinctively reach for his gun and start shooting, not when life-threatening tors for rails rails with square pendant jewelry, peklit the Jams kv?rem and groping after backup weapon. Then it's not a soldier, but a fallen hero. And if Mr. Defense Minister Vondra failure downplays weapons, then it is incompetent idiot who got a blue book right after mature consideration draft board, for the good of the people.

I believe that the Armament chiefs of the General Staff had never in winter sharp shootings neproplazili Doupovske yellow mud, swamps or on Good water and the tender process thus had no idea how unreasonable demands for new weapons to float. Even I have serious suspicions that contracting tendering for new assault rifles from the General Staff never in your hands did not hold any weapon, never taken military training, and the sharpest tool in their hands the envelope with a bribe. This is not a criticism of the work of Czech arms factory, which based on the award criteria goofy done on the design of the weapon maximum potential. This is a critique of the very concept of a weapon system, when an incompetent authority is required nonsense at all costs, and his moronic manufacturer requirements fulfilled to the letter.

The modular system, where it is possible to change the caliber of the weapon or nav??et various accessories, is indeed very impressive at the range for shooting an astounding handymen, enthusiasts and amateurs ignorant, but not suitable to fight in extreme environments. A soldier needs very ergonomic, simplest, lightweight, accurate and reliable weapon with a huge reservoir for instinctive shooting. Specially ergonomics and simplicity CZ 805 BREN lacks. Crap like hanging rail handguard 1913 on all sides are mostly a nuisance and a shooter about them can itself cause maximum injury. On the weapon is important only one runner to fix the image intensifier and laser. Likewise mounted grenade launcher unnecessarily increases the weight of the weapon. CSLA was ready mounted grenade launcher mod. 70 Sa vz.58, but the arsenal was never introduced to inefficiency. I Communist generals understand that it's bullbleep. Infantry squad was contrary panc??ovn?kem complemented with a highly efficient system of RPG 7 on the performance of hand gun. In the war in Iraq mounted grenade launcher did not work and both parties prefer favored RPG 7, which have been successfully destroying the enemy guaranteed. Likewise, US soldiers in all conflicts within the preferred options Kalashnikovs caliber 7.62 vz.43 from his own M16 and using captured ammunition. I guess they knew why. Our generals, however, did not learn from foreign experience.

Another possible a much cheaper alternative to military rearmament was new upgrade "ulo?enkov?ch" Sa vz.58 from military stockpiles in price from 25 to 50 000 CZK / ks by the scope of equipment. This is undertaken by various private companies and enthusiasts. Results civilian semi-auto versions are surprising. While maintaining the simplicity and reliability of a proven weapon system, can be a weapon without any problems nav??et "jewelry" after which Rambo so desperate, including a grenade launcher. Even the change of caliber weapons is not a problem, just a conversion must pass a simple modification workshop, sl?cov?n?m nast?elen?m parts and weapons.

The options that are offered by modernizing existing reliable assault rifles Sa vz.58, which the army had full warehouses, at a fraction of the price of new weapons, were rejected as ill-conceived solutions, and in a tender for the supply of 8 000 pcs new assault rifles 1.5 billion CZK Czech won armory model CZ 805 BREN. That is, if my count 187 500 CZK / pcs. And just to illustrate ulo?enkov? new assault rifle Sa vz.58 ACR from the stores will be selling out to friendly companies after a few hundred. It is really a victory, because once again won the armaments lobby of taxpayers. Politicians win over citizens and generals on the staff of the soldiers in the field. How much money from unnecessary orders flowed as kickback lobbyst?m and politicians will probably never know, but I guess the simple judgment that it was h???dn?.

[RSR]

This thread over in the VZ58 boards shows a Slovakian Army modernized prototype, and Manticore is allegedly looking into doing a monolithic top rail: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=67974.0

Here are a few more pics of that modernized VZ I was able to rack down










I hope these help out some. Personally I would kill just to have a version of the stock they have on it, let alone the whole system.

[RSR]

My take on this is that the VZ58 is pretty tough to beat, and the Bren seems to fall short. 

To modernize, there's obviously the accessory angle and needing rails to support it.

The VZ58 trigger is also never going to be match grade with its original firing mechanism -- they probably could have reconfigured w/ a hammer type system as part of an overall modification program, but the striker system is serviceable.  Swapping types would probably allow for a burst setting too in addition to full auto and semi as is current.

But otherwise,
-changing the barrel install to allow for easier swaps/replacement (screw in rather than press fit)
-A bolt carrier with either swappable or ambi charging handles
are the only major components.
-A monolithic rail system would support full length scopes. 
-And deleting the front sight block w/ a monolithic system would allow for a slightly heavier barrel than stock for more accuracy...

The other stuff we can do relatively easily -- ambi mag release, ambi safety, tactical bolt release, etc. 

For 5.56, a metal mag well conversion supporting either stanag and/or good 5.56 AK/Galil mags would be good as well.  But otherwise, no need for serious revisions.  AND since the the VZ 58 was originally designed around the 7.62x45 Czech cartridge (with specs similar to 6.8spc), an intermediate level cartridge is definitely an optional upgrade as well. 
Perhaps a polymer magwell in sort of the like Galil ACE here might make production cheaper/easier. 

[mikec]

They traded a 7.62 x 39 for a 5.56.   5.56 has been found to be marginally effective in current wars.   

Coupled with a lower field reliability than Vz-58, I wonder if they made the right move.

It is certainly a politically correct move, start using the same ammo as NATO allies, but..

[RSR]

Yep, CZ never made the VZ58 in 5.56.  CSA started making the 5.56 VZ58s after they bought production rights. 

However, "effectiveness" is relative at best.  Not getting into the caliber discussion here in entirety, but the FMJ 5.56 round is not a good performer at lower velocities.  It needs a minimum 2500-2700 fps to perform optimally/as designed against human targets...  So 18" is really the minimum you want to go ensure effectiveness beyond 100m.  Even with 18"+ barrels, optimal velocity still drops below 2500 fps before 300 yards.  So despite flatter shooting, at ranges, it's equivalent to getting shot w/ a 22lr round in a lot of instances...
Bottom line, 5.56 was never intended/is not optimized to be carbine round.  It's a sub-300 rifle round.  That's why the AR crowd is switching to the 300 BLK for carbine use.  And switching to 6.8 SPC for rifle use.  5.56 is non-optimal for both and was only adopted 300 BLK is equivalent to 7.62x39 and 6.8 spc is equivalent to 7.62x45 czech (the VZ52's cartridge and the round around which the VZ58 was originally designed).

On why 5.56 shouldn't be a carbine: http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093
*Unless you're talking bullpups.  Carbine-length bullpups (generally at least an 18" barrel) are really where 5.56 shines, especially considering its tendency to fragment when hitting walls and the like rather than passing through (but w/ short barrel rifles indoors, it's equivalent to flashbanging yourself as the above read illustrates...)

On the improved M556A1 round being a boondoggle: http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
For more: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?60560-M855A1-presentation-lists-improvements-over-M855&p=736117#post736117

On the need for a change from 5.56: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

7.62x39, being heavier, performs better against most targets except for perhaps heavy steel plate.  And while it drops more at range, it also is less likely to have its flight path affected by wind, branches, etc. 
More on 7.62x39: https://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=1

As I see it, 7.62x39 is a better woods and urban round.  While 5.56 is a better plains/prairie/desert round.  Generally speaking, if limiting yourself to just these two options.  Your needs/use case will help you to determine.

But .308 is overkill against most human targets w/in 300m (7.62x39 and 5.56 perform as good and usually better in all instances at these ranges) and is generally unsuitable for a general purpose round due to size, weight, recoil, weapon system wear, and other factors. 

So that leaves us looking at alternatives...  Beyond 6.8 SPC (perhaps the best somewhat common GPC currently in use), this is the best option I've seen (and it was developed around the 7.62x45 Czech -- VZ58s in original design were 50+ years ahead of the curve): http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/07/7x46mm-uiac-universal-intermediate-assault-cartridge/
*This guy designing this round also designed the 6.8 SPC

If you're really interested in all the theory these and the rest of this guy's site is really worth the time:
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/The%20Next%20Generation.htm
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Assault.htm
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Toward%20a%20600%20m%20GP%20round.pdf

AND all of this is before we even get into all the issues w/ AR15 weapon system...

[RSR]

They traded a 7.62 x 39 for a 5.56.   5.56 has been found to be marginally effective in current wars.   

Coupled with a lower field reliability than Vz-58, I wonder if they made the right move.

It is certainly a politically correct move, start using the same ammo as NATO allies, but..

Following up here, it looks the Bren was a way for CZ-UB to monetize all the R&D that CZ-UB did into a modern weapon system.  They took the VZ52 action and "modernized" it.  That project was code named Lada/CZ 2000 and was originally designed to field the 5.45x39 cartridge and changed to 5.56 NATO after the dissolution of the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact...

Some good reading:

http://www.ar15.com/content/products/ak/cz2000/

http://www.military-today.com/firearms/lada_cz_2000.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_2000

[armoredman]

I'd love to have that monolithic top rail - wonder if anyone here could make one...CzechpointUSA might be interested.

I'd be happy to pit one against the other, as I have a vz-58...but am VERY unlikely to ever have a BREN 805.

[RSR]

I'd love to have that monolithic top rail - wonder if anyone here could make one...CzechpointUSA might be interested.

I'd be happy to pit one against the other, as I have a vz-58...but am VERY unlikely to ever have a BREN 805.

You'd need a stock w/ a higher comb (that angle would change) as well as likely want a new barrel.  You could leave the front sight block on but it wouldn't be usable...  Better to have a slightly heavier barrel (same overall weight) and utilize a crush washer IMO.

I agree, it wouldn't take much to modernize the VZ58.  Granted, it'll never have a burst mode, but that is what it is...
(And I do prefer the Bren 2 round over 3 round burst of the AR.  Theoretically, it should be equally effective as the three as well as more accurate...)

[armoredman]

Stock is no issue...



Cheek riser.

Wouldn't need the front sight block to be usable if I had sights to put on the rail.

[RSR]

Well, yes cheek risers would work, but I'd think ideally you design a stock that had the cheek rest always at the proper height w/o a riser...  Like the Slovak design...

Just came across this today:


Source: http://www.moddb.com/members/perun58/images/comparing-cz-805-and-modernized-vz58

Another good one:



http://www.moddb.com/members/perun58/images/czech-army-logic

[mikec]

There is a long history of bribery, "tunneling" money, etc. out in that country.

And these new rifles are very expensive.

Draw your own conclusions.   

[RSR]

Yep, it's definitely a corruption angle... 

The assertion I've seen is that the reason the Bren won the Czech Army contract (forget if that discussion is already in this thread) is due to it being made in country -- the FN SCAR was the other finalist I believe...

BUT, this recently covered over on the VZ58 boards -- the Soviets in their clampdown following the various uprisings in Eastern Europe in the 1960s or so, implemented greater control over the Warsaw Pact nation's gov't and military...

So the Lada project, later the CZ2000, was the intended replacement to the VZ58.  It was to be chambered in 5.45x39 and looks ot be an AK74 with a combo of Tantal, Galil, and Valmet features.  CZ-UB, being the state arms factory, led all this development, and continued with this project after the collapse of the soviet union...  Eventually, the gov't couldn't afford to buy but kept asking CZ-UB to continue development so they wanted to buy...  So it sounds as if CZ-UB was strung along by the gov't for the better part of 50 years until the 805 Bren came about...  And that was after they threw out the CZ2000 and redesigned from the ground up to support caliber modularity...