22LR sub-sonic *not* recommended for 452/455?

[ocny17]

Per CZ's FAQ below, they warn against the use of 22LR sub-sonic ammo.  'Read their reason for this, but I also read some posts about using sub-sonic ammo and no reports of problems.  Any comments?


From http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/:

Q: ?I?ve heard you use tight bores in your .22s, is that right? What does that mean??

A: Our .22 LRs use our cold hammer forged and lapped barrels, and are built a bit tighter than many other guns. In .22 LR we run a .211 bore, which is one of the reasons our .22s are known for incredible accuracy. This also means that a .17 or .20 rod and jag are required for cleaning, since a .22 rod will be too large. Additionally, use of .22 Short, Long and Sub-Sonic ammunition isn?t recommended because of the tight bore.

Q: ?Can I shoot CCI Stingers or long-for chambering Sub-Sonic ammo in my CZ??

A: Our .22 LR rifles are built to tight tolerances for increased accuracy, and our chamber is what other manufacturers might refer to as a ?Match? chamber. The tight tolerances mean overly long cartridges may not fit, so Stingers and some large sub-sonic loads will be too long to allow the bolt to close. Also, we warn customers against using sub-sonic loads because of our tighter bores.

[painter]

All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.

[gryphon]

If that's true then I guess I should have done a little more research before choosing my CZ. For me, one of the main attractions to a bolt rifle has always been that they are less finicky about ammo than autoloaders. In todays marketplace where you never know what type of rimfire ammo you're going to find (if any) I did not want to be stuck having to pass ammo up because of my rifles inability to use it. I suppose that when/if things get better it will be a moot point but still...

[ocny17]

All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.

Oh boy... since it's so hard to find 22LR ammo these days, I picked up whatever was available this week, and one type was the CCI 22LR Quiet ammo:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/CCI-22-LR-Quiet-Ammo/21556266

I measured the OAL and the diameter between this sub-sonic, a standard velocity one, and a high velocity variant, and I also loaded each in the magazine and chambered them, then also spun them around in the chamber... all very close in dimensions, all spun freely enough in the chamber.  I guess I'll give all of them a try this weekend or next.

[painter]

If that's true then I guess I should have done a little more research before choosing my CZ. For me, one of the main attractions to a bolt rifle has always been that they are less finicky about ammo than autoloaders. In todays marketplace where you never know what type of rimfire ammo you're going to find (if any) I did not want to be stuck having to pass ammo up because of my rifles inability to use it. I suppose that when/if things get better it will be a moot point but still...

An auto loader is a different situation. They require the power of the round to operate the action.

Bolt actions are less finicky. You can manually load anything into it and pull the trigger.

Some CZ rifles can use the slower velocities. My Lux runs the Aguila Sub Sonic just fine. I've never tried the Colibri or Super Colibri.

Occasionally you'll find a rifle that will make the very low velocity ammo into a squib. It's very possible in an Ultra Lux with a 28" barrel. Keep in mind the Colibri is a primer only round.

If you use the ammo just make sure it exits the barrel before you send another down the tube.

If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo.

All standard velocity ammunition is sub-sonic.

They're talking about stuff like CCI Quiet and Aguila Colibri and Super Colibri which are labeled .22LR.

The rifle is not chambered for anything that is labeled .22 Short or .22 Long.

Oh boy... since it's so hard to find 22LR ammo these days, I picked up whatever was available this week, and one type was the CCI 22LR Quiet ammo:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/CCI-22-LR-Quiet-Ammo/21556266

I measured the OAL and the diameter between this sub-sonic, a standard velocity one, and a high velocity variant, and I also loaded each in the magazine and chambered them, then also spun them around in the chamber... all very close in dimensions, all spun freely enough in the chamber.  I guess I'll give all of them a try this weekend or next.

The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.

[Ruber]

Ii think they are more concerned with the basic quiet loads not making it all the way down the barrel, then having someone fire another shot with the first stuck in there.

I have not had that experience, but others have.  I've only used the CCI and Remington quiets, CB's and CBees..  My favorite are the Rem CBees, but they are louder than the CCI CB's.

I use them in my 452 UL and 452 Scout for small pest control in areas where it's nice to be polite.  In the UL, they are quitter than most airguns.


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[ocny17]

The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.

I just received this week a 455 Training rifle, so it's longer than the regular 455s but shorter than the UL.  When I get to the range, I'll shoot w/ the other ammo first and try the CCI Quiet ammo last, keeping in mind what you said.  I really don't want a potential squib, but in case this happens, at least I'll be almost done for the day.  The video below is what gave me some peace of mind that at least it wasn't an issue for this person as far as squibs are concerned:

[gryphon]

From Painter, "If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo". So do you know of someplace that will sell quality ammo by the brick without charging $75 or more. I can shoot my .357 Magnums for less than $6 per 50 rounds (reloading of course) and I refuse to pay more than double that for .22 ammo.

[painter]

From Painter, "If you're buying ammo a box at a time in this climate you will remain at the whim of the market. Look online and buy by the brick for decent ammo". So do you know of someplace that will sell quality ammo by the brick without charging $75 or more. I can shoot my .357 Magnums for less than $6 per 50 rounds (reloading of course) and I refuse to pay more than double that for .22 ammo.

I feel the same. It's out there you gotta look. Prices for rimfire will never be what they were again.

I've bought 5 bricks of CCI SV for under $50/brick, and 2K rounds of S&B surplus for 8 cents a round in the last 6 months.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rimfire-ammunition/cci-22lr-standard-velocity-500rd-box-50035.html  I think it's just over $100 for 2 bricks shipped.

No limits...reasonable price...Runs in my Kadet. How can you hate it?

edited to add...

Check their shipping page. They don't ship to AK or HI. I get shipments to my door in NH in a week with never a glitch.

[painter]

The problem with the quiets is the velocity. It's only 710 fps at the muzzle which is roughly 3/4 of standard velocity. It's like a CB in the size of LR. Try it, and verify it exits the barrel. Unless you have a long barreled Ultra Lux it most likely will be fine.

I just received this week a 455 Training rifle, so it's longer than the regular 455s but shorter than the UL.  When I get to the range, I'll shoot w/ the other ammo first and try the CCI Quiet ammo last, keeping in mind what you said.  I really don't want a potential squib, but in case this happens, at least I'll be almost done for the day.  The video below is what gave me some peace of mind that at least it wasn't an issue for this person as far as squibs are concerned:

I have a friend that uses them in his Lux also when shooting out the kitchen window. Your 455 trainer has the same length barrel as the 452 Lux.

[Rimfire7]

I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ. 

[painter]

I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ.

How much does it change POI from say a SV round?

[ocny17]

I have shot thousands of rounds of CCI Quiet through all my 452's........it is all I shoot here at my home place to keep the noise low.  Out of the UL you can even hear it 100' away .    One round stuck, one time only in my UL because of a bad round.  No 'pop' at all.   CCI quiet is 710 fps.   I do not use the Colibri rounds in a CZ.

How much does it change POI from say a SV round?

I'm interested to know as well. For now, I can only base my guess on the video I posted above which shows the guy shooting his 452 UL at 25 yards, and it looks like the CCI Quiet ammo is grouping okay although below POA as compared to his grouping w/ the Aguila subsonic ammo.

[PaperPuncher]

..... Also, we warn customers against using sub-sonic loads because of our tighter bores.
[/i]

Dang!!! Wish I'd heard that a few thousand rounds (and a few hundred dollars) ago.

We need another name for the sub-sub sonics like the Aguila Colibri/Super Colibri. It makes no sense to group them with Wolf, RWS, etc. In my experience "Subsonic" (i.e. Standard Velocity i.e. approx. 1050 fps) shoots like a dream from a 455 American and a 452 Lux. The primer-only super-quiet ammo has its place but it is not in a CZ unless you want to shoot with a cleaning rod by your side to push them out of the barrel.

[ocny17]

BTW, I just scored some 22LR ammo below from 1 Walmart:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-22LR-40gr-Auto-Match-325ct/17133655
($18.97+tax for 325 rounds)

I think I figured out how their local inventory works, at least based on what I was told by a couple of employees who placed orders for ammo, and me getting there first thing the following morning:
- Check walmart.com for local store inventory; make sure they are "Out of stock"
- At night about an hour or so before the store closes, check online for their inventory again; if you see it's "In stock" you can call and confirm that they have an order coming in the following morning
- Show up at the local Walmart store when they open (7:00 AM around here) and be first in line

After taxes and no FFL transfer fees, it's averaging at around $0.06/round of 22LR from Walmart.  That's much more acceptable.