Click no Bang!

[Ricnzak]

Think I may have a issue or two.  I had recently had a couple of FTF from light primer strikes on my last range trip with my 08.  It was getting dark and at the end of the day so I thought I would check into it more later.  Wednesday we went back out.  I loaded three mags with different ammo with 10 rounds in each.  I loaded one round mixed with the three types with a few oddball old rounds I acquired somewhere.  The old rounds were a deep brown with what I would bet is berdan primers. 

Went through the 1st three mags with no issue.  Not slow fire but not total rapid bump fire style either.  I do have to say that this rifle shoots great when it works.  I put in the mixed mag and my 10 year old shot a couple of rounds.  On the second round we noticed smoke coming from the bolt.  pulled the trigger for the next round and nothing.  Hand cycled two other rounds with the same result.  Noticed the rounds had no primer strike marks at all.  So I pack her up and bring it in.

That night I took down the rifle and was wondering if I had the gremlin or some other issue.  I started going through the stickey's and found this thread.  http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70667.msg508268#msg508268

When I pulled the bolt out I couldn't see the firing pin or hear it.  I found it in the bottom of the rifle.  It had been blown past the retainer.  It got pretty chewed up.
/URL]


The bolt face also has a "cupped" area around the firing pin hole.  I don't remember noticing that before.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i337/Ricnzak/IMG_0221.jpg[/img]][/url]

I have been filing the burrs off of the pin and have it pretty smooth.  Not sure if it can be re-used or not.  The head on it looks kind of buggered up.  Should I file that more uniform?
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i337/Ricnzak/IMG_0230.jpg[/img]][/url]

I watched a video on how to strip the bolt.  In the video when they press down on the pin the extractor falls out.  I can't get mine to break free from the bolt.  Any tips?  It has two small "dents" around the extractor.  Not sure is that is wedging it or not.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i337/Ricnzak/IMG_0243.jpg[/img]][/url]

So here is where I am at.  I believe I may or may not have the gremlin.  (I think I do and I will be reaching out to Morgan)  I'm pretty sure we popped a primer and caused the other damage.  I didn't think to recover the round fired when the problem occurred 

So at this point:
1. I am not sure if the pin can be salvaged or not.
2. Does the firing pin hole on the bolt look acceptable or am I looking at a new bolt?
3. Am i missing something else?

Any advice is appreciated.  Thanks guys and Happy New Year!

Rick
       



         

[Ricnzak]

Crap.  Trying to get the pictures to work.  Even followed the instructions.  Sorry.

[Enthusiasm]

Without seeing any pics,Sounds like a popped primer to me. Extra smoke, destroyed pin. Those are the signs.

[RSR]

Replace the firing pin. 

I would replace your extractor as well as a protrusion off the extractor is what captures the firing pin...

Since a PITA to disassemble, I would recommend replacing all components w/ NOS, including extractor spring and plunger while you have it apart. 

I would suggest doublechecking your headspace and/or cases for any other issues. 

I wouldn't worry about replacing the bolt but it wouldn't hurt for you polish the bolt face as illustrated here (for an SKS bolt): http://www.murraysguns.com/poppedprimers.htm

At least 99% of the SKS bolts that have been sent in for Firing Pin Kit installation have a raised area around the firing pin hole. 100% of them have a sharp or jagged edge to that hole. Something of a Volcano shape seems to be created especially when it is dry fired. This ?Volcano? and sharp or jagged edge needs to be removed, in a safe and careful manner.

We start by fully disassembling the bolt assembly and with bolt gripped between padded jaws in a vise, we carefully stone the ?Volcano? down to normal bolt face level. But, No More! A small stone, laid flat on the bolt face, can easily remove the raised area with a moderate amount of pressure and rubbing back and forth. But don?t take too much, as excessive headspace problems can arise if too much is removed from original bolt face. After that is done, we use an 82 degree countersink bit, between the thumb and forefinger, and with hand pressure only, we very slightly countersink the firing pin hole. Ten to fifteen thousandths deep is plenty. This will create a tiny raised edge around the firing pin hole, so again, lay the stone on bolt face and very lightly remove the ring that you created. That?s it.

Now there will not be a raised area that is the first part to contact the primer. The entire bolt face will, as it should, contact back of cartridge and primer. And no more sharp edge to act as a cutter and cut a hole in the primer.

This procedure is done on every bolt that is sent in to us for firing pin kit installation. So if you, or your local ?Smith, are not comfortable doing this, we?ll be glad to help.

*I should have at least a couple NOS bolt parts kits around here somewhere that include the firing pin, striker, extractor, and extractor components.  PM me for details should you not have them on hand.  I would recommend ensuring you're replacing w/ NOS though.

[CitizenPete]

I agree with Enthusiasm on his evaluation of the probable problem that happened. It sounds like a popped primer. Too bad you don't know what specific ammo you were shooting.


RSR suggests replacing all the bolt parts and this is probably the best advice I would follow. In addition, carefully inspect the bolt (beside the face), and the striker (linear hammer) to make certain it did not get damaged.

[Ricnzak]

Thanks for the input guys.  I reached out to RSR for his kind offer.  I'm pretty sure what ammo it was.  I'm going to double check the other spend casings and look at the striker again.

[Enthusiasm]

Tell me it was Tula ?

[CitizenPete]

Tell me it was Tula ?

LOL,  TulAmmo gets such a bad rap, Comrade. 

I dont remember ever having an issue with any Tula, but their are lots of people believe (and vocalize) that it is cheap crap.  For cheap Russian ammo I like Klimov (sp?), but I shoot thousands of Tula rounds ever year with no problem to date, that I can remember.  Many bad mouth Wolf as well -- again never had an issue.

I would love to have a stash of the Hornaday SST (recommended by RSR) for the Zombie Apocalypse, however my M67 should suffice.

IMO, if a 7.62x39 (combloc or not) firearm cant shoot steel cased Wolf or Tula ... Barnaul, Klimovsk, Ulanov, etc...(see video below)  then IMO something is wrong with the gun.    It's a litmus test of functionality IMHO.

Never shoot US made Sammi brass, but I use the M67 Yugo milsurp (and rarely Chinese M43) when I have the pre-planned gumption and time to scrub-a-dub on return from the range.  On very rare occasions I will use M43 Lapua (one of the best brass cartridges IMO), but not normally in the Vz.58, because I still haven't figured out how to easily catch the brass.

I have always wanted to try the Bosnian Red Army Standard ELITE, esp. since its indoor range friendly (non-magnetic), which is handy in the cold months where I reside. "Expensive it is", Yoda.

Murray at Murrays Gunsmithing (who works on a lot of SKS rifles -- spring firing pin mod) also dislikes "cheap" Russian. But popped primers and slam-fires prob bring him more business, than Obummer, who was recently voted the "Gun Salesman of the Century" 

What problems if any, have you had with Tulammo in the Vzor 58, Mr. E?  has anyone else experienced popped primers in their vz.58?

Which ammo shown in this video have you guys tried in your Vz.58 variants? Which ones were bad (failures, dirty, etc.) and which were better?  I beleive these are all C.I.P. spec. and I think the Green Mountain barrels are SAMMI spec. chambers, which still should work fine.

Someone recently traded me some 7.62x39 for a crate of 54R, and it included two sealed battle packs of South African.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9NCxyzMtNU

On Halloween we had a night shoot competition, and I was able to shoot one course of fire with NV (PS7) and my Sa.Vz.58 SBR using tracer starburst rounds on steel targets.  Some of the best shooting sport fun I have ever had.

[Enthusiasm]

I agree tula has a bad rap, and I know people will complain about Anything, evidence or not.
BUT, my experience leads me away from Tula. I have never purchased or fired  a single round from any weapon.
I have shot thousands of rounds of wolf in its various forms, And lots of cheap no name loose stuff that might have very well been made at the Tula plant for all I know.
I also know that people often blame the rifle for popped primers. But I don't think it is a failure of the weapon but the ammo. I mean the pin hits the primer with the same force every time!!  So if it was the rifle hitting to hard,  shouldn't it Pop the primer every time? And over time wouldn't the forces weaken as the rifle ages?
For a couple years I was selling SKS parts , and vz58 parts. Because i ran across a big hord that I sold off.
And I tell you truly
EVERY SINGLE popped primer reported to me was Tula black box! And I'm talking north of 20! It seems that every squib round I hear about is Tula black box. And can confirm I know of 2 squibs from Tula from my past customers (SKS)
I have never been so unlucky to experience ammo failure myself, knock on wood.
And I've yet to have any failure of any kind from my vz58,or vz2008!!!

[RSR]

White box wolf klimovsk has been rumored to have some batches that are mildly corrosive and presumably why wolf didn't brand it as official...

Tula is a little less "hot" ammo than barnual or golden tiger.  But the price somewhat accounts for that.  Arguably, the powder is a little dirtier too...  I believe all of cabelas herters steel is tula, while all of academy's monarch steel is barnaul. 
Main difference between the two for me is that barnaul is offered in lacquer cases as well as brass plate (golden bear) and zinc plate (silver bear, mfs, ruag) while tula is just the bimetal poly cases (brown bear is also largely bimetal polymer too now and rarely lacquer coated these days).  But all monarch steel 7.62x39 at academy I've seen has been lacquered fwiw.

Afaik, Barnaul is current military supplier for 7.62x39; that said, all russian ammo factories seem to supply at least some ammo to russian military -- Barnaul, Vympel, Ulyanovsk, Novosibirsk, Tula, etc. 
For instance, check out Novo/LVE's website; they make "military" 9x18 mak ammo, 7.62x54R ammo, and 12.7mm (effectively russian .50 bmg) ammo and the rest is all "hunting": http://www.lveplant.ru/pages_en.php?id=06
BUT, not all bear ammo has always been made by barnaul, including in 7.62x39: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=268

So it's really just a matter of checking headstamps for each case/box you buy and keeping an eye on it over time...  Heck, even the Hornady SST steel case ammo (best guess barnaul since lacquering seems to match and 7.62x39 stamping appears the same, hornady has hsc stamp whereas barnaul lacquer has barnaul stamp at top; and barnaul sells a line of ammo w/ hornady bullets) is made w/ russian steel cases (sst 7.62x39 being lacquered) and berdan (presumably russian) primers.

Also, TulAmmo owns both Tula and Uly factories per luckygunner: http://www.luckygunner.com/brands/tula-ammo#review  Interesting, since Tula makes no bear ammo, but uly does/has -- perhaps before tula purchased?  If I recall it was relatively recently.  And part of the reason the 8M1, 8M2, and 8M3 "effect" projectiles are no longer made by ULY, bullet standardization across the brand.

I like the hornady sst for game like deer and/or home defense; it's not lacquer coated on primer and I haven't pulled a bullet to examine for any asphalt (no lacquer) but guessing it's not sealed as detrimental for accuracy. 
For zombies, I'd personally stock up on the barnaul lacquer soft points, and golden tiger in 7.62x39.  Something lighter like 5.56 or even 22lr would allow a lot better shot to weight ratio and probably perform better on decaying zombie heads...    YMMV. 
Golden tiger is more accurate and hotter (expanding effective range), while the barnaul lacquer soft points are probably the best terminal performing projectile on a benefit per cost basis...  Golden tiger ammo is fully sealed as well; but both being lacquer means both should remain reliable barring full submersion (not that you can't seal primer and necks on your own w/ lacquer if so inclined) -- non-lacquered steel cases do not resist high-humidity exposure, let alone elements exposure very well over time. 
Reliability then accuracy are the primary two criteria for me.  Then projectile terminal performance third... 
Close quarters, both are acceptable. 
At greater/unknown ranges, I'd lean towards golden tiger.  Perhaps keep a mag of soft points loaded, and if needing to engage at a longer range, distance should allow a switch to gt... 
Basically, Golden Tiger FMJ is a close copy of the Uly EM2 bullet (believe Uly made the military 7.62x39 ammo before barnaul received the latest contract), which is an optimized version of the M67 FMJ projectile.  Similarly 8M2 was intended to do for the FMJ projectile what the more well known 8M3 HP did for the steel case HP performance... 
EDIT: Golden Tiger ammo also has flash suppressant, which the Hornady does as well.  I haven't found any "bear" ammo yet to have it, but the "Mil-spec barnaul" SG is selling right now should, though SG didn't know for certain...  Then again, barnaul isn't always bear...

Cross-sectioned GT ammo.

*I haven't seen the Golden Tiger soft points ever, and the HPs very rarely...

[CitizenPete]

I agree tula has a bad rap, and I know people will complain about Anything, evidence or not.
BUT, my experience leads me away from Tula. I have never purchased or fired  a single round from any weapon.
I have shot thousands of rounds of wolf in its various forms, And lots of cheap no name loose stuff that might have very well been made at the Tula plant for all I know.
I also know that people often blame the rifle for popped primers. But I don't think it is a failure of the weapon but the ammo. I mean the pin hits the primer with the same force every time!!  So if it was the rifle hitting to hard,  shouldn't it Pop the primer every time? And over time wouldn't the forces weaken as the rifle ages?
For a couple years I was selling SKS parts , and vz58 parts. Because i ran across a big hord that I sold off.
And I tell you truly
EVERY SINGLE popped primer reported to me was Tula black box! And I'm talking north of 20! It seems that every squib round I hear about is Tula black box. And can confirm I know of 2 squibs from Tula from my past customers (SKS)
I have never been so unlucky to experience ammo failure myself, knock on wood.
And I've yet to have any failure of any kind from my vz58,or vz2008!!!

I really enjoyed your post.  I fully agree that popped primers have to be the ammo 99.99% of the time.  The SKS is known to be famously designed for popped primers though. That tilting lock bolt and free floating firing pin that seams to stick out a quarter of a inch.   Not dismissing the SKS... I have a small but decent SKS collection myself, unfired examples and some shooters, including a very clean Albanian.  The SKS is still one of the best rifles ever made IMO.  Often dismissed and downplayed as the $90 Walmart milsurplus gun of the past, relegated to parade rifle status in militaries across the globe.


BTW, You don't happen to have an extra E. German, N. Korean, or clean Romanian your interested in selling do you?


A few years ago Murray fixed a NORINCO "M" shooter (? Takes AK mags) for me with the FP/spring and a spring change in the FCG. But I get light primer strikes with the changes. Never got back on the priority list to work it out.


So, back to the Tula ammo and the Vz.58.  Touch wood... I shoot Tulammo as a cheap range round and never had any issue to date.  Prob. over 2000 rounds of Tula this past year alone with AKs and VZs.  No issues, and I often prefer it over brands like Golden Tiger which are lacquered to death.  I try to keep about 20k 7.62 Russian in storage of all different kinds.  But M67 is my fav, esp. with SKS.  Vz and AKs eat anything as they were designed to do.   I think someone wrote a song about it: Seasons don't fear the Tula, nor do the wind, the sun, nor the rain.  We can be like they are. Don't fear the Tula.

[RSR]

Some pics from here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?125047-Golden-Tiger-7-62x39-124gr-FMJ/page3

Note that golden tiger actually has a larger nose cavity than the 8M2 effect.  Looks like 8M2 effect did not have a boat tail either...  Regardless, front nose cavities cause more rapid tumbling and boat tail improves accuracy, all things being equal.  Do note that early 7.62x39 ammo was steel core, and steel is less dense than lead (only core that can be legally imported to US these days) so that's part of the reason for the hollow nose with somewhat similar bullet shapes...

7.62 x 39 mm FMJ:
From L-R: Soviet M43 Type PS steel core (circa 1980?s), DDR Type PS steel core (circa 1970?s), PRC Type PS steel core (circa 1980?s), PRC Type PS steel core (circa 1990?s), PRC lead core (circa 1990?s), Yugoslavian M67 lead core (circa 1980?s), Russian Ulyanovsk 8M2 ?Effect? (circa 2000?s), Russian Amursk Cartridge Plant-Vympel ?Golden Tiger? (circa 2000?s).

[RSR]

Thought I posted this yesterday, but apparently missed it.  A few years old now (from 2005), but cross sections:


Source: http://www.lesjones.com/2005/06/09/airspace-in-762x39mm-bullets/

The 3rd from right, Uly FMJ, should be the "8M2" bullet.

[Ricnzak]

Tell me it was Tula ?

I'm pretty sure it was one of the two on the left.  We were shooting at a family range back home a couple hours away.  I'm going to go back and search the area and see if I can find the round that popped.
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http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i337/Ricnzak/IMG_0261.jpg[/img]][/url]

[Ricnzak]

After a getting with RSR he brought up replacing the striker.  I would not have thought it would have taken a hit but sure enough after looking closer it took a heck of a hit. Maybe I can file out the burrs and have a spare.  http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i337/Ricnzak/IMG_0251.jpg[/img]][/url]
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