Author Topic: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?  (Read 33253 times)

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Offline Border Dave

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Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« on: May 08, 2016, 02:16:07 PM »
This is a legitimate question.  Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR? I know nothing about the Bren 805 except that it's the same caliber as an AR15.

Offline Garmanarnar

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2016, 02:17:34 PM »
Why choose an 805 Bren? Because you want an 805 Bren.

Offline Kenneth

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 02:51:02 PM »
Well I have been looking at the Bren and I believe it would be a great suppressor host and an awesome SBR. I would likely get the pistol version.

With that being said an AR will have endless accessories and parts availability will never be an issue.


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Offline BEE

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2016, 02:53:46 PM »
If you love CZ's and don't have a CZ modern style rifle, the Bren 805 fills that void perfectly.

Check out MAC's youtube video on the Bren 805https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCaBI6QURGg
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 02:56:25 PM by BEE »

Offline TATBME

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2016, 03:48:04 PM »
Because I have lots of AR's in all kinds of different lengths and just wanted something different.

Offline EvilAP

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2016, 05:35:42 PM »
^^^ Yep.  A little variety is nice.  I have several AR's, and if I could only have one rifle it would be one of them.  But I still like to shoot other guns.

Offline Border Dave

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2016, 07:57:39 PM »
OK.  Thanks for all the replies.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2016, 08:08:13 PM »
I don't have a Bren.  I did buy a SIG 556R a few years ago.  For awhile, after getting and shooting the SIG, there was no doubt in my mind my next rifle would be a SIG 556 or a SIG 516.

I didn't get either.  I built more AR15's.  Couple of AR15 pistols, three AR15 rifles/carbines.  Why AR15's?  Cheaper.  Easier to get a wide variety of parts for.  Easy to change parts around on them.  Accurate.  I have spares for them. 

I Bren would probably be nice.  My advice would be to wait till they've made it a few years and you know parts are going to be easy to get.  The SIG fizzled.  No longer made.  New models have issues.  They may stop making the "new" 556's as well.  Parts?  No idea where to buy spares if I need them.

If CZ does the Bren rifle like they do they're pistols then parts should be easy to get.  But I'll wait and see.

Then again, there's the cool factor.  And the "Hey, what is that?  I've never seen one of those before" factor when you take it to the range.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline BEE

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2016, 11:20:08 PM »
Spare parts from the pistol variant can be bought from the CZ-USA webstore. I'm sure majority of the parts from the pistol model will fit the carbine model.

805 Brens are replacing the vz58's that are probably still being utilized by the Czech Republic military. That's says a lot. I had a chance to own a vz58 rifle and it was a nice really quality rifle that fired a 7.62x39 round, however a bit dated.

As long as the 805 Brens are in the service by the Czech Republic and a handful of countries I think the 805 Bren is in it for the long run. Now that CZ is gaining momentum I feel that 805 Bren will be a long time competitor against the Scar.

Offline AZ_CZ

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 12:03:45 AM »
Cool factor and variety are the only reasons  I would get one and that's not enough for me.

ARs  have a lot going for them: price, track record, new & used parts, DIY builds, caliber conversions. I won't even consider one until I see a reliable 22 conversion kit on the market that doesn't cost more than a complete handgun.
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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 12:43:10 AM »
It is a piston driven gun as opposed to the direct gas impingement system of the AR. This means no buffer tube which allows for a folding or collapsible stock that's much shorter than an AR. That's a pretty solid benefit of piston guns. Other than that... Direct gas gums get the whole bolt and area where the gun cycles rounds much dirtier than piston guns. BUT modern AR's will run extraordinarily reliably and some cleaning ensures that. Supposedly AR's are more inherently accurate than piston guns, but modern piston driven rifles seem to be very accurate. The differences probably would be worth debating at extreme Accuracy competition level rifles, but not for most people. Again these are generalities and would apply to why get a Bren. And I'm sure other members can elaborate more eloquently on these matters. Hope that ads some basic level reasoning.
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Offline RSR

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 02:21:51 AM »
Cool/awesome/unique factor. Brand loyalty as well...  Personally, I'm awaiting the release of the 806 version, if/when, it happens... 

For the $1999 MSRP on the carbine version, you can build two top-notch ARs, including even if you buy complete assembled uppers... 
CDNN has the LWRC short stroke piston AR uppers that have recently been adopted by a few different militaries for $699 w/o sights and $799 w/ sights.  You can buy Adams Arms cosmetic blem short stroke piston uppers for $475 or so... 
Theoretically, the Bren should be more reliable since not a "conversion" like many of the AR piston variants, but not necessarily so these days...

In brief, I see the Bren as primarily an option for someone who wants a current generation military issue small arm but doesn't want polymer a la the SCAR or ACR, or various bullpups and also wants something other than an AR or AK variant (the other modern configurations)...

If you want maximum accuracy, you truly cannot beat an AR w/ free float rail -- properly built w/ quality components, they are as accurate as mid to high level bolt actions, but not premium bolt actions... 

The AR is a weapon system I really want to not like, but now for a cost/value perspective, they are increasingly a tremendous value. 

805 Brens are replacing the vz58's that are probably still being utilized by the Czech Republic military. That's says a lot. I had a chance to own a vz58 rifle and it was a nice really quality rifle that fired a 7.62x39 round, however a bit dated.

As long as the 805 Brens are in the service by the Czech Republic and a handful of countries I think the 805 Bren is in it for the long run. Now that CZ is gaining momentum I feel that 805 Bren will be a long time competitor against the Scar.

Brens and SCARs basically tied in Czech testing, but Brens won on account of being domestically produced and CZ being stringed along for decades in trying to develop something to replace the VZ58...  As a carbine and considering the caliber, I do think the VZ58 has significant advantages over the Bren, but in some ways it's inferior too.  Posted some Czech feedback on the early 805s vs VZ58s in an early thread in this forum.
And all things considered, the Bren isn't actually that widely adopted. 
From wikipedia:

     Czech Republic: Currently being introduced as the standard issue rifle for all parts of the Armed Forces and for selected units of law enforcement.
     Egypt: Egypt has announced that it purchased an unspecified number of CZ 805 BREN A1.[6]
     Mexico: Used by Federal Police since 2014[7]
     Moldova: Used by internal troops with a number of other European arms bought in 2013.[citation needed]
     Slovakia: 688 pieces bought by Slovak Army in November 2014, along with same number of CZ 75 pistols.[8]

Vs my other preferred niche military small arm, the galil:

     Bolivia[13]
     Botswana[13]
     Brazil: The Pol?cia Militar do Estado do Par? (PMPA; Military State Police of Par?) ordered 555 Magal Carbines in 2001.[13][14]
     Cameroon: Issued to presidential guard units.[15]
     Chile: Chilean Air Force SAR, ARM variants.Chilean Army Galil ACE Model 23, replacing some of the SIG-FAMAE rifles. Investigations Police of Chile ERTA Tactical Response SWAT team, (replaced by Tavor TAR-21) and regular units.
     Colombia: Standard issue rifle. Produced under license by Indumil.[16] Also adopted the Galil ACE rifle by the middle of 2010, produced by Indumil.[17] FARC rebels use captured examples against the Colombian armed forces.[18]
     Costa Rica[13]
     Democratic Republic of Congo[13]
     Djibouti[19]
     Dominican Republic[citation needed]
     El Salvador[20]
     Estonia: Uses 5.56mm versions of the Galil AR, SAR, ARM and the 7.62mm Galil Sniper.[21][22][23][24]
     Fiji[25]
     Georgia: Uses GALATZ sniper and Micro-Galil assault rifles [26]
     Guatemala: 3,000 ACE[27]
     Haiti[13]
     Honduras: The Galil SAR was adopted in the late 1970s by the Honduran Army, until it was replaced by the American-made M16A1 through U.S. military aid in the 1980s. The Galil SARs were then transferred to the Honduran National Police, where they are still in use. In 2011, the Honduran government approved the purchase of the Galil ACE 21 assault rifle for use by the Army and Air Force. The Galil ACE made its first public appearance on Sept 15, 2013 in the hands of the new unit PMOP (Military Police of Public Order).[citation needed]
     India[13]
     Indonesia: Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group and Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group.[28]

Knesset Guard with Galil

     Israel: Israel Defense Forces[29] and Knesset Guard.[30]
     Italy: The Italian firearms manufacturing firm Vincenzo Bernardelli S.r.l.
    manufactured under licence quantities of the Galil assault rifle in two different models for governmental use in the 1980s.[31] The Bernardelli Mod.377 VB-STR assault rifle was an outright clone of the Galil AR/ARM variant, while the Bernardelli Mod.378 VB-SR assault carbine was a modified clone of the Galil SAR with a different magazine well that accepted STANAG magazines, much similar in concept and look to the above-mentioned optional magazine adapter currently available for the Israeli-made models, except that the Bernardelli VB-SR could be manufactured with permanent STANAG magazine well modification on demand.[32] The rifles competed to the trial for the adoption of a new 5.56?45mm NATO caliber rifle, but lost to the Beretta 70/90 assault weapons system. However, as of today, both models result by official schedules to be in the inventories of the Italian National Police, and are known to be deployed with the NOCS team.[33]
     Lesotho[13]
     Mexico: Secretar?a de Seguridad P?blica.[34]
     Mongolia[35][36]
     Myanmar: Made with assistance from Israeli weapon specialists as the MA series.[37]
       Nepal[13]
     Nicaragua[13]
     Panama
     Paraguay: Indumil-made Galils for the Fuerzas de Operaciones de Policias Especiales, SENAD (Drug Enforcement)and main Rifle of the Paraguayan Police [38]
     Peru[13]
     Philippines[13][39]
     Portugal: 5.56mm AR and ARM versions used by the Portuguese Army airborne infantry.[40]
     Rwanda[13]
     South Africa: Standard assault rifle of the South African National Defence Force. Produced under license in a modified form as the R4 by Denel Land Systems.[41]
     Swaziland[13]
     Tanzania: MAR version seen in use by Tanzanian special forces in the Congo.[42]
     Thailand:Used in small numbers in Department of Corrections[43]
     Trinidad and Tobago.[13] The Trinidad and Tobago Regiment uses this weapon as its standard issue. Also used in conjunction with the FN FAL and M16. Galil ACE also used but in limited numbers.
     Uganda: This type of weapon is used by the Chieftaincy of Military Intelligence (CMI), and by the Presidential Guard Brigade (PGB), a division of the Special Forces Command (SFC), all within the Uganda People's Defence Force (UPDF).[44]
     Ukraine: Sniper variant is used by the "Omega" special forces group. (produced under license as the Fort-301)[45]
     Vietnam: Uses Galil AR and Galil Sniper.[46][47]

Or even, the VZ58:

     Afghanistan[6]
     Angola[7]
     Biafra[8]
     Chile[citation needed]
     Cuba[6]
     Cyprus[6]
     Czech Republic: standard service rifle,[6][9][10] now being replaced by CZ-805 BREN.[11]
     Dominican Republic[citation needed]
     Eritrea[6]
     Ethiopia[6]
     Guatemala[7]
     Guinea[6]
     India[7]
     Indonesia[citation needed]
     Iraq[7]
     Libya[6]
     Mozambique[6]
    Northern IrelandNorthern Irish Loyalist Paramilitaries[12]
     Slovakia:[6] Standard service rifle.
     Somalia[6]
     Tanzania[6]
     Uganda[citation needed]
     Vietnam[13]

But CZ USA does have their act together most of the time, so I have no doubt that legacy weapon system support and parts will remain available...

Offline AZ_CZ

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 08:13:09 AM »
I'm sure factory parts will be available. I want to see aftermarket support and used parts availability.

There are some great piston ARs on the market. You can even get side charger setups. During the last US military rifle trials ADCOR was in the top 3 and it ran both upgrades.

I love the folder concept but unless you are a paratrooper, tanker or crowded into a personnel carrier thier utility is limited. My biggest complain is that the stock rarely offers a good fit, but I guess that is the nature of comprises.
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Offline armoredman

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 06:56:58 PM »
My answer is very simple and the one nobody else has said - I don't like the AR system. I cannot stand that SPROIIINNNGGG in my ear every time I pull the trigger. Last AR rifle I fired was an M16A1 in 1984, never picked one up after that. I had AKs, vz-58s, Mini-14s, but not one AR, nor did I ever shoot one.
I agree with the cool factor, especially when you're like me, and you buck the crowd. EVERYONE on the firing line has an AR of one kind or another. The funny thing is when I see a large number of AR guys in full Tommy Tactical outfits, AR loaded with geegaws and doodads, shooting from the prone with huge scopes...at targets 50 yards away... :o I like to stretch it out a wee bit farther than that. Now I do have to say the last time I was out there a co worker of mine was nailing a 700 yard gong with his AR regularly, but it's his custom build that with scope would be about $1000 more than the BREN list. Milner's AR-15 builds start at $1,500 and go up from there...but what I saw of his work, they're probably worth it.
So, the cool factor to me is exactly that - "Hey, what IS that?" "Wow, that's cool" and it helps support my favorite firearms company when I let these guys shoot the BREN, P-09 or Scorpion. Matter of fact, that last trip to CATS range both the owner and the instructor are going to buy Scorpions and BREN 805 rifles ASAP.
Brand loyalty, too, but that wasn't the primary reason. The primary reason was picking up the LEO version at SHOT and discovering I loved it right from the get go. After that is was all downhill. :D

Offline Kenneth

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Re: Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 07:33:19 PM »
The buffer spring noise isn't much of an issue nowadays with better machining practices. If you have an AR that does it excessively just smooth the inside of the buffer tube and get a better buffer spring.

I agree though if you have a rifle that goes SPROINGGG its really annoying.


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