Author Topic: Looking for my first rifle!  (Read 19441 times)

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Offline mdi_weapon

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Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 04:30:59 PM »
Not cleaning the AR was a matter of seeing when it would stop working. They are certainly not plagued by many of the problems which some like to claim with regards to reliability issues without constant maintenance. Once I satisfied my curiosity, it was well scrubbed, parts inspected and then reassembled. No signs of harm.

Of course, not all ARs are the same. Carbine length or shorter ARs can be a little fussy under really poor conditions but mid-length and rifle length are much less so in my experience with them. Even with the carbine length AR, problems are rare. I suspect that many AR reliability horror stories arise from people who assemble their own (incorrectly) or are buying bottom of the barrel brands. From what I have seen few even consider disassembling them, cleaning, tweaking and smoothing as necessary and then re-lubing and reassembling before their first trip to the range.

The same is true with AKMs - if you buy a poorly assembled junker model you will have problems sooner or later. If you build one yourself and do a halfassed job, you will have problems. A lot of gun problems arise from poorly made guns but just as many seem to be from the trigger finger back as well.

Good piston systems in ARs are not all that heavy. An original config AKM is about 6.8lbs. The Ruger SR556 is about 7.94lbs but a good part of that is due to barrel profile and those huge Troy rails that come on them from the factory. You can shave them down to AK weight with a little effort. The SR762 takes more effort as it is about 8.6lbs out of the box - not bad for a semi-auto .308 (compare with the H&K G3 or the FAL which are both over 9 pounds). I haven't shot an SR556 enough to really say how accurate they are but the SR762 is not suffering from any piston-related loss in accuracy. That is likely because the bullet exits the barrel before the piston system has an affect on barrel harmonics. With Black Hills 168gr match, my SR762 easily puts 5 rounds in under 1" at 100 yards. If there is a drawback, it is the price tag: $1700 plus tax. Another $1000 on optics and mount. Replacement for the factory flash suppressor (not a fan of that part): $100. Sling: $40. It ends up being a decent chunk of cash but worth it.

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 06:15:57 PM »
To maintain accuracy on piston guns, a stiffer heavy profile barrel is required.  That is more weight.
To operate piston guns, that requires a piston system -- pistons by nature are heavier than than the very light hollow tube of DI guns.  That is more weight.
Yes, with tunable piston, you might be able to run a lighter buffer than with some of the DI guns; however, especially with heavy barrels, more weight on the stock end to counterbalance is a plus to weapon performance.  This is potentially less weight but also potentially a detriment to handling.

Colt 6720 lightweight DI AR spec weight is 6.2 lbs.
Colt 6920 (effectively a 16" barreled M4 equivalent with the backwards A2 profile barrel -- heavy profile at front rather than handguards) spec weight is 6.95 lbs.

From your #s, that's over 1.5 lbs (+~25%) for the lightweight and +1lbs, ~+15% for the 6920...

Your SR762 is 16" barrel.

16" FAL runs lighter at 8.35 lbs: http://www.dsarms.com/p-14230-fal-sa58-carbine-rifle-1625-premium-bipod-cut-barrel.aspx
16" DI AR10 runs lighter too at 8.4 lbs: https://armalite.com/shop/ar-10-tactical-16/

If I wanted a piston gun, I would prefer a weapon designed around that operating system...  While many of the piston AR kinks have been worked through, it's still not perfected for a piston operating system.

Further, I wouldn't buy a black rifle from Ruger whose namesake helped to bring about the assault weapons ban, sees no need for anyone to have mags with more than 15 rounds, and doesn't believe that collapsible or folding stocks should be on civilian weapons, among other positions...

YMMV.

Offline mdi_weapon

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Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 08:23:07 PM »
The weight of the FAL depends on your exact configuration but I have never found one lighter than claimed. Heavier than claimed? Yes. Have you ever tried to by anything for a FAL? It requires calculus. Is it inch or metric? Will it fit this particular manufacturer's gun or was the designer's ass too warm in the chair when he was knocking out the specs?? Also, they are optics killers. The FAL's bolt impulse destroys scopes like a shark on a feeding frenzy and mount options are less than wonderful (same with the G3 and any eastern bloc design in 7.62x54mm).

Ruger. I was not at all happy with their decision to support the AWB back in the mid-90s. However, that was two decades ago and they are not the same company. They have a new CEO and he seems to pay a hell of a lot of attention to their customer base. Their customer service is top notch and they back up their products. Obviously, you are entitled to hold a decision from 20 years ago against them if you choose but they are certainly not the only company in the industry to make a bad call under heavy political pressure by any means.

As for the SR762, a decent part of the weight is the handguard. You can shave the weight down easily. You can make it lighter than any FAL (plastic handguard) with very little effort. I actually like the FAL but they are a chunk to lug around and there are few options to make them lighter. The same is true of the G3. They are just beefy rifles and unless you have access to a lathe and mill they are not going to get much lighter.

I failed to mention an additional expense to the SR-762...the trigger. They have gotten much better but holy hell did the original triggers suck. Any other inherent accuracy was ruined by the trigger on many of them as they were heavy and had more grit than a full sheet of 30 grit open cut sand paper. As such: trigger: $245 (on sale).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 10:05:35 PM by mdi_weapon »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 10:43:08 PM »





Not sure that scrub brush attachment is milspec...

I agree with the 10/22 suggestion. If you want a really inexpensive option, Savage also has a semi-auto .22LR that is truly dirt cheap - it can often be found for around $110 but it doesn't have the aftermarket support of the 10/22. The Savage bolt action Mark II FV-SR .22 is another great starter rifle - especially if you want to jump on a precision bolt action rifle in the future. However, the bolt action option opens the door for another type of firearms addiction. You will end up taking up at least one side of a gun safe with them sooner or later.


I can't wait for the video of you shooting your AR filled with water in the bathtub! Prove me wrong!!! LOL

Offline mdi_weapon

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Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 11:03:17 PM »





Not sure that scrub brush attachment is milspec...

I agree with the 10/22 suggestion. If you want a really inexpensive option, Savage also has a semi-auto .22LR that is truly dirt cheap - it can often be found for around $110 but it doesn't have the aftermarket support of the 10/22. The Savage bolt action Mark II FV-SR .22 is another great starter rifle - especially if you want to jump on a precision bolt action rifle in the future. However, the bolt action option opens the door for another type of firearms addiction. You will end up taking up at least one side of a gun safe with them sooner or later.


I can't wait for the video of you shooting your AR filled with water in the bathtub! Prove me wrong!!! LOL

Easy enough - I just had to reply to your fanboy nonsense the first time. Take off your ninja suit and exit the mall.

Side note: soap would entirely relieve the surface tension in a 5.56 barrel - that is one of the reasons soap works in the first place. As such, no problems in the bath.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 11:05:53 PM by mdi_weapon »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 11:58:59 PM »
Well, the HK .223 didn't blow up in / underwater, so it's not the caliber. The issue is that the AR15 direct impingement is fraught with a lot of problems (excessive heat, powder / carbon fouling, demands constant maintenance, etc. etc. to name a few -- and blows up if you happen to drop in the water and then have to fire it to save your life -- e.g. in the rice paddies of Viet Nam).

If you want a drop dead reliable semi-auto rifle, piston guns are better than DI, preferably in a serious caliber. The AR15 and 5.56 caliber were picked by the bean counters at DOD (Whiz Kid Robt. McNamara  of Viet Nam War strategy fame) because Gen. Curtis LaMay was impressed with the space-aged look of the AR15 and at how it blew up watermelons when demonstrated at a picnic. LeMay may have been a genius at strategic aerial bombing, but he had no business having any influence in picking an infantry rifle.

And GIs have been stuck with that poodle-shooter turkey going on 60 years. Arguably the worst combat rifle & cartridge (for its time) in US military history has been deployed for the longest time. Incredible.

HKs have a very heavy barrel profile which is what was required to achieve similar accuracy to DI guns due to the piston system's effect on barrel harmonics -- that 10" barrel HK weighs about the same a 16" A2 profile DI gun. 
Again, the reasons for the fracturing of the upper receiver were noted -- drainage holes in buffer tube and how the DI system works (liquids don't be have like gasses, so when liquid in the gas system, there's issues). 
The point about .223 rifles is that the barrel can burst when any obstruction, including water is in the bore.  With round loaded in chamber and surface tension of water in .22 cal barrel, the water effectively holds itself in barrel unless seal is broken on chamber end -- much like holding finger over one end of a straw.

You're also incorrect on LeMay forcing it onto infantry. He wanted it for Air Force base security -- to replace the M1/M2 carbine whose ammo was relatively ineffective in FMJ/ball verison vs 5.56 AND had serious reliability issues in full auto mode (including magazines), leading most to be used in semi auto only. 
Congress and the Pentagon shut down the Air Force buy, and ultimately Pentagon and the President forced the weapon onto the resistant Army and Marines.  You can read more here: http://www.gundigest.com/article/the-ar-16m16-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be

The last is entirely your opinion and you're welcome to it, but let's at least keep the facts straight.

LeMay obviously had McNamara's ear when he rushed the M16 into production for Viet Nam with disastrous results. The Whiz Kid took the advice from an "Expert" and came up with a "better idea" about what makes a superior infantry rifle. Like the article says, the M16 killed a lot of GIs when it jammed / seized up in combat. Since then, it's been one band-aid after another to try to fix it's numerous short-comings. It has to be the only rifle in history fitted with a device (the forward assist) specifically designed to try to deal with the many anticipated jams when the rifle decides to crap out at the worst possible moment.

The AR still today has the same basic flaws with the DI system and the anemic 5.56 round. The work around is all the design bandaids, barrel/rifling and bullet changes and constant maintenance and even then it's not enough.

Like I alluded to in an earlier post, when the M4 started getting it's butt kicked by other (piston) rifles in head to head competition, the US military stopped the trials. Apparently, a jam every 400 rounds is an "acceptable" failure rate for the M4. That's a disgrace and a great disservice to our troops.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 11:54:29 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2016, 12:12:12 AM »





Not sure that scrub brush attachment is milspec...

I agree with the 10/22 suggestion. If you want a really inexpensive option, Savage also has a semi-auto .22LR that is truly dirt cheap - it can often be found for around $110 but it doesn't have the aftermarket support of the 10/22. The Savage bolt action Mark II FV-SR .22 is another great starter rifle - especially if you want to jump on a precision bolt action rifle in the future. However, the bolt action option opens the door for another type of firearms addiction. You will end up taking up at least one side of a gun safe with them sooner or later.


I can't wait for the video of you shooting your AR filled with water in the bathtub! Prove me wrong!!! LOL

Easy enough - I just had to reply to your fanboy nonsense the first time. Take off your ninja suit and exit the mall.

Side note: soap would entirely relieve the surface tension in a 5.56 barrel - that is one of the reasons soap works in the first place. As such, no problems in the bath.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YIJQ1jgEI

I'm sure it will be a colorful!

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2016, 02:19:27 AM »
US Ordnance was actually on the right track in the early 1920s (almost a hundred years ago now) when they came close to adopting the .276 Pedersen round, a flat-shooting, intermediate powered cartridge, which was the first chambering of the M1 Garand. Funny thing, the .276 Pedersen had almost identical ballistics to the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC, which are recognized as the long-overdue replacement for the anemic 5.56. Of course, the 6.5 Grendel is basically a necked-down 7.62x39 round but tapered to fit an AR platform (regrettably).

Unfortunately, the bean counters won and the US stuck with the .30'06 (along with the anemic .30 Carbine for support troops) through the Korean War.

Then when NATO came about, the US forced everyone to adopt the 7.62x51 (near identical to the .30'06 ballistically) even though the .280 British cartridge was proposed (ballistically near identical to the .276 Pedersen, the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC -- you get the picture).

It seems the US Ordnance never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity as far as picking out an infantry rifle / cartridge.

I agree that .276 P would have been a superior choice to .30-06 for the M1 Garand.  However, .276 P is effectively a flatter shooting, higher velocity .308 -- and it actually has a longer overall cartridge length as well.  So it's still a full caliber high velocity battle rifle cartridge...  Primary benefits of .276 P or .280 B vs .308 are higher velocity, flatter shooting, and reduced recoil...  Primary drawbacks of these higher velocity, necked down rounds is reduced barrel life due to increase throat erosion, which is of concern in a MG role...
http://wintersoldier2008.typepad.com/summer_patriot_winter_sol/2011/12/for-those-who-think-that-the-280-british-and-the-276-pedersen-were-pipsqueak-cartridges-in-compariso.html

Personally, I find the 5.56 FN Minimi/M249 SAW to be a greater aberration than the M4 in modern military use...  A true intermediate SAW capable of barrier penetration but lighter than .308 would be a great asset to troops, the M240 .308 MGs are considered medium machine guns...  And to my knowledge the Mk48 in .308 that weighs 2 lbs more than M249 (both FN Mini variants) is only available to socom -- ammo weigh-wise even with the lighter weapon, the problem still exists.

So, I'm more a fan of true intermediate calibers for the modern battlefield if you want one weapon capable of engaging both near and far -- the 7.62x45 Czech that the VZ58's predecessor, the Vz52 was designed for, is one of several options including 6x48 UIAC, .270/.280 british (which you mention as main competitor to .308 for NATO adoption), etc.  The VZ58, early prototypes, was also originally designed for the 7.62x45 Czech cartridge.

In regard to US Ordinance, weapon development has always been a problem.  The expiration of the Clinton AWB and adoption of ARs and accessories in large quantities by US civilians has played a tremendous role in allowing private companies to develop off the rack solutions to issues plaguing our military's primary small arm.  No doubt a tremendous soldier's number of lives have been saved by the US consumer demanding the best...


Yep, unfortunately short-sighted politics and logistics concerns can impede improved performance on the battlefield in the short term and also cost more in performance, time/effort and money (and lives) in the long term: see the M16 / 5.56 debacle going on 60 years now.

If the .276 Pedersen had been adopted for the Garand and the BAR in WW2, they would have been superior infantry weapons and we probably would never have gone through the trouble of developing the .30 Carbine, 7.62x51 or the 5.56 (M1 Carbine, M14 and the M16). The stockpiles of .30'06 could have been used for the M1919 machine-gun. The .276 Pedersen would also outperform the .30'06 as a long-range bolt-action sniper rifle.

The road not taken...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwntZVIoPpI
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:36:26 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2016, 05:31:20 PM »
LeMay obviously had McNamara's ear when he rushed the M16 into production for Viet Nam with disastrous results. The Whiz Kid took the advice from an "Expert" and came up with a "better idea" about what makes a superior infantry rifle. Like the article says, the M16 killed a lot of GIs when it jammed / seized up in combat. Since then, it's been one band-aid after another to try to fix it's numerous short-comings. It has to be the only rifle in history fitted with a device (the forward assist) specifically designed to try to deal with the many anticipated jams when the rifle decides to crap out at the worst possible moment.

The AR still today has the same basic flaws with the DI system and the anemic 5.56 round. The work around is all the design bandaids, barrel/rifling and bullet changes and constant maintenance and even then it's not enough.

Like I alluded to in an earlier post, when the M4 started getting it's butt kicked by other (piston) rifles in head to head competition, the US military stopped the trials. Apparently, a jam every 400 rounds is an "acceptable" failure rate for the M4. That's a disgrace and a great disservice to our troops.

Who knows what private discussions were had. AFAIK, the General was concerned about his service and I think it's unfair to assign blame to him when so many more powerful people were responsible for military-wide adoption...

The DI system, though not ideal for extreme neglect or infrequent cleanings in field conditions, is adequate for most uses.  For instance, the standard combat load for US GIs is 210 rounds. 
Under sustained high rates of fire or engagements where 1000 rounds are going through the weapon, yes DIs are less than ideal.  But as noted, the carbine is typically considered a secondary weapon to other forms of firepower... 

In total agreement that the launch of the AR15 in VN was a boondoggle.  I also agree that the 5.56 round is not ideal for shooting into cover, including dense jungle, where bullets are more likely to deflect off course than penetrate through...  Further, the DI M16 also really wasn't ideal in rifle configuration (20" barrel versions w/ fixed stocks) nor was it well suited for the high rates of fire, mad minute/cover shooting/etc reactions to conflict where at least a few mags were dumped on full auto with that light profile barrel, minimal chrome in the action vs what Colt/Armalite recommended, improper cleaning instructions, and reusing mags that were designed to be disposable...

A perhaps good part about DI guns under severe use is typically the gas tube will burst before the barrel under severe heat, rending the weapon single shot but functional (at that point the barrel is likely on its last legs due to losing temper) but still serviceable.

The CZ805 bren had a 2 shot burst setting (auto resets unlike rachet system M16 burst) on it -- with the issues w/ a 5.56 round, I think that makes a tremendous amount of sense, and that's before you look at increased hit probabilities as it relates to both sight acquisition timing, time lead down range, and shooter aiming/estimation errors...
So I'm with you on 5.56.
However, I am totally on board of this read about 6.8spc not being tremendously different from 70+ gr 5.56 loadings: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/04/not-so-special-a-critical-view-of-the-6-8mm-spc/ 

I do think you need to up power beyond 6.8 spc and 7.62x39 before you reach an ideal do everything intermediate round. 

And I generally agree for the need of the military to adopt new small arms (and surplus -- not destroy per usual -- their current inventory of weapon and mags).  Why?  B/c the primary cause of failure for the M4 carbine, Beretta M9 pistols, and most small arms is all the wear and tear and defective mags, etc, that the military continues to keep in circulation/use.  Any weapon system if starting with fresh builds, mags, and parts would be more reliable than the current military inventory.

Are there better weapon systems than the M4 -- in my opinion yes.  But it's based upon my personal needs/assessments.  Everyone's perspective on what is important differs.  Currently the military is driven by social justice concerns so small arms will have to be able to be used effectively from 5' 110 lb petite females to 225 lb 6'+ linebacker build types in special operations community... Considering that, the M4 continues to be superior in many respects to other offerings.  However, the M4 w/ a piston kit (which most in that military trial were) is not typically more reliable than weapons designed around a piston system from the start.  But typically they have a notably different manual of arms, are heavier (unless lots of polymer), and many use the same mags (so doesn't fix the bad mags in circulation issue -- remembering that mags are responsible for 4 out of 5+ malfunctions w/ M4s in the field)...

One thing I didn't note earlier and probably should have is that some piston systems like Adams do effectively free float the piston inside of the gas block, which helps with accuracy but doesn't totally resolve.  1/2 to 3/4 MOA requirement -- DI wins.  1 1/2 MOA requirement both DI and piston guns are equally competitive.  Most soldiers probably aren't 1/2 MOA shooters, especially with iron sights or 2+ MOA red dots, so take that into consideration too...

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2016, 05:39:55 PM »

Yep, unfortunately short-sighted politics and logistics concerns can impede improved performance on the battlefield in the short term and also cost more in performance, time/effort and money (and lives) in the long term: see the M16 / 5.56 debacle going on 60 years now.

If the .276 Pedersen had been adopted for the Garand and the BAR in WW2, they would have been superior infantry weapons and we probably would never have gone through the trouble of developing the .30 Carbine, 7.62x51 or the 5.56 (M1 Carbine, M14 and the M16). The stockpiles of .30'06 could have been used for the M1919 machine-gun. The .276 Pedersen would also outperform the .30'06 as a long-range bolt-action sniper rifle.

The road not taken...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwntZVIoPpI

.276 P is a .308 equivalent.  But still an overall projectile and cartridge weight that would still be less than desirable.  The overall cartridge length too is more than is desirable.  If the .276 P concept was refined further, then I think you may have a point.  But in the .276P only version of history, I still see .30 carbine being adopted (it was developed to replace pistols/sidearms not the Garand) and some iteration of the SCHV round being adopted in some sense too.  Remember prior to the M16, the military spent a lot of time and effort trying to develop flechette rounds and weapons to be the primary military small arm...   And if you look at a lot of the caseless ammo development, it too in concept is largely small caliber high velocity rounds (often in hyper-fire type weapons) with rounds that have far more in common with high velocity pistol calibers like 5.7x28 or 4.6x30 than the more powerful 5.56...

Offline mdi_weapon

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2016, 07:30:30 PM »
The adoption of military weapons always seems to be an odd and somewhat confused process. Look at the history of the P14 in Britain and how American factories which were set up to build that rifle ended up changing out the chambering to .30-06 to produce 1917 Enfields for World War I. That was out of immediate need for rifle production but it is still odd how it played out.

Side note: anyone know where to get a decent price on a 1917 Enfield stock which has not been cut down? The few I have seen in even semi-decent condition as of late run $350 or more for the stock with none of the metal hardware.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2016, 06:36:54 AM »

Yep, unfortunately short-sighted politics and logistics concerns can impede improved performance on the battlefield in the short term and also cost more in performance, time/effort and money (and lives) in the long term: see the M16 / 5.56 debacle going on 60 years now.

If the .276 Pedersen had been adopted for the Garand and the BAR in WW2, they would have been superior infantry weapons and we probably would never have gone through the trouble of developing the .30 Carbine, 7.62x51 or the 5.56 (M1 Carbine, M14 and the M16). The stockpiles of .30'06 could have been used for the M1919 machine-gun. The .276 Pedersen would also outperform the .30'06 as a long-range bolt-action sniper rifle.

The road not taken...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwntZVIoPpI

.276 P is a .308 equivalent.  But still an overall projectile and cartridge weight that would still be less than desirable.  The overall cartridge length too is more than is desirable.  If the .276 P concept was refined further, then I think you may have a point.  But in the .276P only version of history, I still see .30 carbine being adopted (it was developed to replace pistols/sidearms not the Garand) and some iteration of the SCHV round being adopted in some sense too.  Remember prior to the M16, the military spent a lot of time and effort trying to develop flechette rounds and weapons to be the primary military small arm...   And if you look at a lot of the caseless ammo development, it too in concept is largely small caliber high velocity rounds (often in hyper-fire type weapons) with rounds that have far more in common with high velocity pistol calibers like 5.7x28 or 4.6x30 than the more powerful 5.56...

It seems that a 6.5 to 7mm projectile is the magic formula for combining flat shooting, range, penetration, stopping power and low recoil. If they had adopted the .276 Pedersen,US Ordnance might possibly have used their heads and come up with a .276 "Short" for an assault rifle application (similar concept to the Germans' 7.92 Kurtz for the StGs) -- but probably not, knowing how US Ordnance operates!

It's all moot anyway, they're still trying to put bandaids on 5.56 with a change in rifling and 77gr. bullets, and still with DI.

Unfortunately, the Russians seem to be getting serious about transitioning to 6.5 Grendel or a similar 6.5x39 that would feed through existing 7.62x39 mags (that's using their heads, unlike US Ordnance). If that were to happen, the obsolete and anemic 5.56 would be seriously out gunned on the battlefield, especially if the Russian field body armor that would defeat the 5.56.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/13/6-5-grendel-cip-certified-russia/
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 06:48:12 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2016, 12:41:39 PM »
One thing to note, and probably should have earlier...  So typically in weapon overhaul programs, the gov't typically defines the specs, and then the lowest bidder (or woman/minority-owned business that was close to lowest bid or all three per preferences/points of the federal gov't contracting process) is the one that ends up doing the work...  So the weapons overhaul programs that get bid out to the private sector are often something like Century monkeys, or worse, building our military's small arms.

Or the alternative has been to rely on unit armorers to do upgrades/maintenance where there is also a lot of a disincentives in the military bureacracy that prevent them from doing the job correctly and completely...

So ideally, the goal would be to replace entire inventory of weapons and mags in entirety and then the same factory building contracts also have a provision in the contract that they do all armorer-level maintenance, overhauls, etc, on that inventory and testing/outbound processes being the same as if they were building brand new weapons. 
With the Russians, my understanding is that their system does more closely approximate this one.

I agree that somewhere between 6.5-7.5 is pretty ideal for an intermediate caliber.  The challenges in design come w/ terminal effectiveness, increased throat erosion with necked down cartridges, and velocity as it relates to both of the previous factors -- and then the tradeoffs between all 3. 

The rifling on 5.56 rifles has been 1:7 since 1982 w/ the M16A2 and was necessitated by replacing the M196 tracer w/ the longer L110.  The L110 more closely followed trajectory of SS109 rounds (L110 being Belgian designed and SS109 being the Belgian's M855 -- main difference is slighter thicker jackets on most European ammo to comply w/ Hague than you see w/ US or Israeli, my favorite 5.56 military loadings, equivalents) and had about double the effective range of the earlier tracer, so was more suitable for use in SAW, etc, weapons...  (I have also seen that rather than tracers, the reason for 1:7 was US Marines requirement that SS109 penetrate a steel helmet at 1300 meters -- 1:9 couldn't accomplish this but 1:7 did...  I don't know which is the complete truth, but regardless 1:7 twist is the existing US milspec barrel twist.)
So there's no rifling changes needed to run 77gr -- even military testing showed for the 62gr M855/SS109 that 1:9 was ideal, but the tracer requirement pushed to 1:7.  So the 70-80 gr bullets in 5.56 are merely optimizing the projectile w/ the twist rate of the existing barrels -- and 1:8 is probably the superior twist for all but the heaviest in the 70 gr, 80+ gr bullets.

I'm not w/ you on the DI vs Piston game, especially in an AR configuration.  Piston ARs have more moving parts and more points for failure, relatively fragile pistons vs AKs or VZs or other piston-specific weapon designs,  and more of the operating system is exposed to the elements which can also effect extreme durability...  At high rates of fire, yes pistons will stay cooler.  Suppressed, pistons stay cleaner with much less blowback in the faces...  But as noted earlier, there is an accuracy penalty and a weight/handling penalty -- and in the increasing night operations of modern militaries, most AR piston systems also have larger infrared signatures than do DI guns, both suppressed and unsuppressed...

As far as bandaids, I think continuing to upgrade and revise a weapon system doesn't classify as such, unless anytime you see an opportunity to improve something and choose to fix it you classify then classify such improvement as a "bandaid"... 

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2016, 05:49:29 AM »
Getting back to the OP after going way off course, there's a reason why AKs are flying off the shelves and AR prices are taking a nose dive: people buying guns nowadays have found out that ARs are a PITA to shoot and maintain and expensive to feed compared to (imported) AKs, especially in 7.62x39. For most people looking for an all around semi-auto rifle -- self defense / hunting / survival / recreation / cost -- the AK (or Vz) is the way to go.

Then there's the AR ammunition / rifling debacle: which twist rates will stabilize which rounds and vice versa? Which rounds will fragment and which won't at a given velocity? Barrier penetration? Ammo cost? Do I have to thoroughly clean my weapon after shooting or can I throw it in the safe and not worry about it ever.  7.62x39 ammo cheap and available everywhere. Aside from 55 gr. (still more expensive than x39) the heavier stuff is way more expensive and hard to find. 99.9% of us aren't carrying full-auto weapons, so the fact that you can carry more 5.56 rounds doesn't matter. With 7.62 x 39, each round you pop off is far more potent.

I've had several ARs, but I just can't bring myself to shoot them much anymore because they're just too big of a PITA to deal with and feed.

With AKs and Vzs, the ammo is cheap, potent, and the gun goes bang when I pull the trigger, again and again and again (with little or no maintenance) -- they're just so much more fun and confidence inspiring (i.e. for when the SHTF) than an AR.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 05:57:59 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline felix

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Re: Looking for my first rifle!
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2016, 02:25:42 PM »
What MeatAxe said in his latest post.  Forget the AR for now. Cost and reliability are at the top of the list - Go with the AK or VZ. Personally I prefer the VZ. I'm not judging, I'm just saying.....
Love to play with fast women, sharp knives & loud guns, if the wife says it's okay....