Fun question: Anyone with direct experience making less lethal ammo?

[Clint007]

Hi guys

We are buying a small cabin in the Rockies to escape the summer heat in AZ, and the neighborhood is, reportedly, more than rarely troubled by black bears. A current resident describes some near misses with bear-on-dog encounters in his yard.  I had my doubts about this chap, to be honest, but we did notice bear scat when hiking the area. I'm not really worried, but it got me thinking.

I read up on the various types of less lethal ammo, both shotgun, rifle and pistol. And frangible type ammo as was used variably by Sky Marshals.

What  load would you - a Jedi Master loader - create to address the situation where your beloved dog is one-on-one with a grumpy black bear inside of 50 meters. Your goal is non lethal deterrence. You want the bear to leave and remember this experience. You don't want to kill the bear.....or your dog if you miss (obviously you would not but humor me). I know that targets can still be killed or maimed with (un)lucky shots with non-lethal projectiles, but forget that for the moment.

I was thinking of buying some rubber bullets and testing accuracy and impact effects using a suppressed JP 9mm upper on my SBR lower. Or some other caliber upper. 

C

[Grendel]

'Less lethal' at close range out of a pistol or rifle is an oxymoron. There's a reason correctional units, law enforcement, and the military use shotguns for pepper balls, baton rounds, and beanbags or launchers for gas.

'Simunition' paint rounds are less lethal, but hurt on humans, on bears it would just piss them off if they even noticed it.

I'm sure you know this, but 'frangible' ammunition is not 'less lethal'.

If I was dealing with bears attacking my dogs, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be messing around with anything less than a 12 gauge slug, but for the purposes of your post a baton round or 'rubber bullet' might be the next best thing. I'd still have a slug round next up in the mag though, just in case the bear decided to take the shotgun off me and stick it up my...nose for annoying him.

[ReloaderFred]

I live in bear country, and we can't put our trash out the night before or the bears or raccoons will get into it and spread it hither and yon....  My wife and I have been "trapped" by an ornery bear while walking the dogs a couple hundred yards from our house.  The bear did what's known as "posturing", which means he walked slowly back and forth in front of us, looking over his shoulder directly at us at about 20 yards, as we slowly backed up.  He did this twice in a period of about 20 minutes, and he was letting us know that we were in "his territory".  There wasn't any way around him because of the heavy brush and the terrain, and after the first time, he laid down in the brush and waited for us the second time.  The 9mm in my hand got smaller as the bear got more aggressive.........

Once a bear has lost his fear of humans, he's nothing to mess with.  Forget everything you've seen on TV, or what you've been told by PETA, HSUS, et. al.  More people are attacked by black bears in the U.S. and Canada each year than Grizzlies in 5 or 10 years.

With that said, most bears don't like dogs, unlike cougars, which we also have in way too many numbers.  Bears will try to avoid dogs, while cougars will hunt them, as evidenced by a neighbor who saw two cougars stalking his little dogs in his yard and finally scared them off with a shotgun blast into the ground in front of them.  (stupid neighbor just moved here from a liberal state and was afraid to shoot the cats, like he should have)

The problems between dogs and bears are usually instigated by the dogs, since most will chase anything that moves, including black bears.  A bear will turn and fight a dog, but usually because the dog is pressing the attack and has no idea what it's messing with.  The same goes for dogs chasing deer.  If the deer can't outrun the dog, it will turn and fight, and those flailing hooves are lethal.

One thing you don't want to do is make a bear mad.  If it won't take off yelling at it, and standing tall and not running from it, then you'd better be prepared to take the bear down.  They're pretty tough, and sometimes take a lot of killing.  They're also surprisingly quick, and can easily outrun you.  Sometimes they'll warn you by snapping their jaws and growling, but not always.  If a mother bear has cubs nearby, she's dangerous, period.

I'm not trying to scare you about living with bears, but they're not your furry friends.  They can be unpredictable, and if some fool in the area has been feeding them, they're even more unpredictable.......

Hope this helps.

Fred

[M1A4ME]

Can't say what effect it would have on bears, but dad used to load popcorn into 12 ga. shells to send stray dogs, cats, etc. packing.  I have no idea how it patterned or how much it might penetrate if you were too close, but he played with these to determine patterns at varying ranges so he'd know how to hold.

[whitecap]

Clint you need to make a choice. Bear or you. If it's the bear don't buy the cabin in known bear areas. If it's you, the wife and dog, carry a 41 mag, or 44 mag and bear juice. Anything else will anger the animal and the outcome may be horrific. Coming from AZ you will not outrun the bear at altitude. Don't forget he (they) were there first. Start learning about posturing like Fred mentioned. Smart, ahead of time is always better than, wish I had know that, after.

[1SOW]

In addition to what's said above,  have a lethal means that makes a lot of noise when shot.  Situation allowing,  noise might help,  if not,  lethal will help.

[Danjoe]

I've lived a lot of my life in NW Wyoming where we have both black bears and grizzly bears, and bear spray is going to work infinitely better than anything out of a firearm.

[armoredman]

I use less than lethal munitions as part of my job, and you would be surprised how often it fails on irritated humans. I would honestly not use any LTL on a bear, ever. A BREN 805 pistol on a single point sling oughta do it, if you can get it on target. I read about a bear being killed by 9mm up in Alaska, but it took 15 rounds to do it. Perhaps that Chiappa Triple Threat 3 barrel in pistol config might work, same as the Mossberg Shockwave, only looking for ease of portability where serious knockdown power is required.
Use what you have at hand, and use it quick, but I wouldn't bother with anything less than lethal when confronting 400-600 pounds of incredibly strong, very fast and extremely irritated bear

[Earl Keese]

I've lived a lot of my life in NW Wyoming where we have both black bears and grizzly bears, and bear spray is going to work infinitely better than anything out of a firearm.

For what?
I'll stick with the firearm.

[Clint007]

thanks for everyone's input. I have my doubts about how genuinely serious this neighborhood's bear problem is, despite this chaps dire warnings.  But I do have two dogs that will be there with us.....

Ok, so less lethal sounds like risky endeavor. But has anyone loaded rubber or such and played around with it? 

This question is now off topic, but since I have you on the line....and I'm not a hunter. What would you recommend for a bear that you could suppress using an AR-15 lower? Talking accurate shots given risk of collateral (dogs, cars). Nearest house is about 100 yards through trees, but the yard at risk where a dog-bear encounter might occur is 100% clear beyond. I  have two AR-15 lower SBRs and 4 cans (Omega, Hybrid, Octane 9 HD, Sparrow) but no AR-10 lower as a SBR.  Like to have as small a package as possible.   450 Bushmaster? 458 SOCOM? 6.8 SPC? Plain ol' 5.56?  The list of possible calibers atop an AR-15 lower is long, but of course it needs to be reliable...

Cheers guys.

C

[cntrydawwwg]

Personally, a kill at long range may get you into trouble, even if your dogs are being attacked.
   Not really sure on the AR rounds, 5.56 would probably just tork the bear off.
   Fred gave great advice, and I agree about black bear attacks vs. brown.
   A lot of people carry bear spray, can be very effective. But I will say, we had multiple bear attacks in my state last year. Don't remember all the details, but I remember two of the attacks were from black bears that took full doses of spray and kept coming.
   If it were me, I'd use this as an excuse for a new pistol. Go ahead and get some bear spray, but I'd carry at least a .357 mag with JSP or SWC for black bear. In brown bear country min. .44 mag. JMHO
   Oh, and learn where kill shots are on bear. DO NOT try head shots. Even .44mag at close range have been known to bounce off the skull.
   Now some may say that's an old wives tail but when I was a kid, my uncle from Alaska showed a me a picture of a brown bear that had been killed. When they skinned it out, 6 .44mag slugs were imbedded in its skull. Bone was growing back over them, meaning they were NOT what killed it. Made a believer out of me. [emoji6]

[armoredman]

Happened up on a mountain near me 30 years ago, radio personality was out with his family, bear attacked, he fired 6 rounds from a 44Mag into the bears skull from very close range, bear wandered off confused and with a massive headache, had to be tracked down and killed later by professionals. Little girl attacked lived. I really have zero direct experience with BEAR spray, but I have lots of experience with pepper spray, and the absolute best is Phantom. Stuff is the devil's farts, I'm telling you, EVIL stuff. But I have seen people fight right through it, but humans have less exposed mucus membranes than a bears nose does.
ASR lower...I'd go with something heavy, hard hitting and wide. However, this is coming from someone who has never hunted bear, and has VERY little experience with ARs as well. 5.56mm would be what I use, because I have it, but probably SP or FMJ, as quite a bit of the popular SD bullets probably won't penetrate that hide/muscle/fat as well as on human enemies.

[Clint007]

Personally, a kill at long range may get you into trouble, even if your dogs are being attacked.
   Not really sure on the AR rounds, 5.56 would probably just tork the bear off.
   Fred gave great advice, and I agree about black bear attacks vs. brown.
   A lot of people carry bear spray, can be very effective. But I will say, we had multiple bear attacks in my state last year. Don't remember all the details, but I remember two of the attacks were from black bears that took full doses of spray and kept coming.
   If it were me, I'd use this as an excuse for a new pistol. Go ahead and get some bear spray, but I'd carry at least a .357 mag with JSP or SWC for black bear. In brown bear country min. .44 mag. JMHO
   Oh, and learn where kill shots are on bear. DO NOT try head shots. Even .44mag at close range have been known to bounce off the skull.
   Now some may say that's an old wives tail but when I was a kid, my uncle from Alaska showed a me a picture of a brown bear that had been killed. When they skinned it out, 6 .44mag slugs were imbedded in its skull. Bone was growing back over them, meaning they were NOT what killed it. Made a believer out of me. [emoji6]

Great googily moogily. Um, how about armor piercing rounds?...

C

[Earl Keese]

Would your requirements be different for hiking vs. an encounter in your yard?
For black bear and cougar I think a Glock 10mm would be easy to carry on a hike. I recently carried my 10mm 1911(drop leg holster) on a Coyote hunt. We set up about 100yds from the truck and I was surprised how much the weight distracted me. No matter what I did, it was uncomfortable. I think a Magnum revolver would pose the same challenge.
 For yard protection, from the porch at least, an AR10 would be my choice.

[cntrydawwwg]

Like I said, not sure about AR rounds (sorry, should have said calibers). You asked for an opinion, I gave it. Even said JMHO. Take it or leave it, no biggie.
   As a hunter, I believe in matching the caliber to the game being taken. 5.56 is too small for bear IMO.
  Armor piercing, go ahead. Don't be surprised when the bear just gets madder. When hunting big game I stay away from FMJ or armor piercing, and HP. You want to make as big a hole as possible, with as much damage as possible, with a big exit hole. You want bone to break, and the animal to bleed out quickly. Perfect would be if the bullet juuust exits, leaving a good sized hole. That would mean that all the bullets energy was expelled inside the animal.
  FMJ and AP will go right thru. It'll do damage yes, but won't really expand that much and leave two holes the size of the bullet. Fat and tissue will quickly plug the holes almost completely stopping the bleed out process. A wounded bear would not be fun. May run away, may turn towards you. Game such as deer would take off and if those holes get plugged, may take days to die.
   HP works great for self defense on humans. Big impact, large wound, no over penetration. Bears have thick hides and thicker layers of fat. I don't think HP would do as well on them as humans. Definetly would not make a big thru and thru hole.
   Using a big cal. Solid lead or JSP is what I would use. 30/30 smallest in rifle, .357 mag for pistol. There's some out there that swear they would use smaller, some would laugh at me and say I'm nuts for using that small of caliber. It's my life, this is what I would trust. Just as it's your life, you use what you would trust. [emoji6]
    Bing or google AR bear hunting. Sure, guys do it. A lot that I quickly searched, use AR 10's in large caliber. Heck a .22lr can kill a bear. If your lucky.  Just my honest opinion.
   All I did was try to show you a different way to look at it.
   Sorry I wasted your time with even more googily moogily[emoji6]