Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)

[M1A4ME]

Where I live, in central VA, the only modern fire arms you can hunt deer with are shot guns, with buckshot.  They don't even allow slugs.  I know deer aren't armed but they are quick, strong, and usually moving through areas of semi concealment (brush) when engaged with the shotgun and they get killed by the thousands every hunting season.  I don't hunt down here. 

I've wondered, over the years about the "growth" of shotgun shells.  Three inch was the big one when I was younger, but not many of them around.  Then it was 3&1/2" 12 ga., then Ithaca came out with that 10 ga. monster.  Is there something bigger now than the 3&1/2 12 ga?  Have they gone to a 4" shell yet?

I have a 12 ga. Ithaca M37 loaded by the bed.  Not once have I grabbed it and gone walking around the house in the dark.  I have an AR15 carbine by the bed.  Not once have I grabbed it and gone walking around the house in the dark.  I did take it on a couple of night time walk around the property inspections a few years back when that hound dog would wake me up at zero dark thirty acting like the dog pen was being invaded.  I have a P09 in the cabinet by the bed.  If I have to get up in the middle of the night and walk around the house in the dark, I grab the P09 and a flashlight I keep on the cabinet next to the cabinet I keep the P09 in.  There's a light on the P09, but I prefer to have one in my hand, too.  The light on the gun is back up in case I drop/lose the one in my hand. 

In my house I've noticed:
1.  The shotgun has the least number of rounds and is the hardest to walk around with
2.  The AR15 has the most rounds and is a little easier to walk around with.
3.  The P09 has nearly as many rounds as the AR15 and is the easiest to walk around with.

Now, most of us will never need to use all those guns we keep around, and a good thing, too.  That doesn't change the need to think about what could happen, think about what we might need to do, think about what we would use to survive it or talk about it with "friends" to see if our ideas make sense or if there are still things out there we can learn about.

You know, when it comes down to it which of the three do we feel the most comfortable with?  I know I spend a lot more time carrying, handling, cleaning, shooting my pistol than I do the AR15 or the 12 ga.  So, what do you want in your hands that dark and stormy night?  The fire arm you're most comfortable with and have the most trigger time on?  Or something else?

[FakeCZName]

M1A4ME asked: "I've wondered, over the years about the "growth" of shotgun shells.  Three inch was the big one when I was younger, but not many of them around.  Then it was 3&1/2" 12 ga., then Ithaca came out with that 10 ga. monster.  Is there something bigger now than the 3&1/2 12 ga?  Have they gone to a 4" shell yet?"

The best advancement in Shotgun ammo that actually increases a shotgun's effectiveness and range has been the invention of heavier than lead loads. One of the most well-known and widely misunderstood is a substance nicknamed "Hevi-Shot" which is actually 13% heavier than lead and ballistically superior in every way to lead. Unfortunately, there's a lot of confusion since the company's name is also "Hevi-Shot" and they produce many different kinds of non-lead shot--not all of which are 13% heavier than lead.

Real heavier than lead Hevi-Shot increases the effective range and penetration of any shotgun. It also makes for tighter patterns depending on the choke used. A Shotgun loaded with heavier than lead Buckshot is a one-shot instant kill with a center-mass hit on an attacker within your house. Lead would be lethal too, but heavier than lead shot increases the penetration and patter out to longer ranges--longer than many pistoleros might believe until they see it.

[Edward_Teach]

But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away

That whole situation was crazy.

Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.

Right. That's why I like this dudes videos..

I guess just the other day the yankeemarshal was trying to start a "internet feud" but I'm more or less sure it's just tym is just trying to stay relevant and troll..

[s0nspark]

But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away

That whole situation was crazy.

Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.

Right. That's why I like this dudes videos..

I guess just the other day the yankeemarshal was trying to start a "internet feud" but I'm more or less sure it's just tym is just trying to stay relevant and troll..

YM can be funny occasionally ... but generally he just gets under my skin. My life has been better since purging 98% of the gun channel personalities from my subscription feed - I just want substance these days ;-)

[M1A4ME]

Fake CZ Name, where I was sort of going there was the corporations constantly looking for ways to build sales/increase profits.  You know, this one is better because....so buy it.

Will a 3" magnum really guarantee the deer will drop where it's hit?  Will the 3.5"?  Will the 10 ga?  Yeah, I know more lead is better, sometimes.  But quite often people want a 3" magnum because they failed to kill something with the 2&3/4" shell, or the 3.5" because they failed to kill something with the 3" shell.

I had a buddy back home (that ground hog hunting buddy) who traded a beautiful little 20 ga. A5 light weight shotgun (chambered for 3" magnums) "because it wouldn't kill a turkey."  That's right.  A 20 ga. firing 3" magnum shells with #4 shot will not kill a turkey.  It was the gun/chamberings fault, not his.  My dad killed multiple turkeys every year with a 12 ga. 2&3/4 shotgun with 1 oz. loads of 7&1/2 shot.  So did my brothers (I finally got one, the last year I hunted at home).  So, back to the question, if people could make the shot, would they need the high dollar special shotguns shooting the high dollar special shells? 

I will admit, if I was going to have to kill a big grizzly bear with my shotgun I'd want the Ithaca 10 ga.    I know, we're not talking about hunting bears, I'm just trying to say that more power isn't always the answer.  That power has to hit the target in the right spot.

[M1A4ME]

Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?

In my experience you can have a modified choke shotgun shoot tighter patterns than a full choke shotgun if the right sized/brand shot shells are fired through the modified choke and the "wrong" sized/brand shot shells are fired through the full choke gun.

You can change brands or change shot size and have a big effect on pattern diameter or even shape/distribution of shot within the pattern.

Ever seen the you tube videos on "cut" shotgun shells?  Interesting.  Never tried it myself.

Have  we (should we??) discuss type of shotgun (pump, semi-auto)?  I have both.  The (John Browning designed) Ithaca M37 and the (John Browning designed) Auto 5.  Both in 12 ga.  Both with extended magazines.  Both loaded with 00 buckshot.  I trust both of them.  I've owned/carried/hunted with M37's since I was 12 years old (dang that thing used to kick the snot out of me till I got bigger).  Because of that experience and trust in the machines John Browning designed, I trust that old Auto 5, too (plus, I took it completely apart when I got it, cleaned/lubed it up and put all new springs and friction rings in it).

[sboone]

Choice of HD gun is not nearly as important as having a plan and educating everyone who lives under your roof of said plan.  Should the unlikely event occur that someone is in your kingdom uninvited all is not lost. The end result is to protect you and yours and  you have all the advantages

1st- you have the home field advantage, you know the ins and outs you know the choke points you know the barriers and possible hidy holes

2nd- you?ve got the element of surprise if you play your cards right (this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no) <?on this tangent real quick if your go to gun is not cocked and locked you are using the same logic as the idiot who carries on an empty chamber, safety off and you should be ready to repel borders, none of this loading a magazine and racking slides and pumps and charging handles.  That removes one of your advantages, arguably the most important

3rd- you?ve hopefully trained with your choice and know how to manipulate it as needed.  There?s no room for less lethal here, remove the threat worry about neighbors later, not saying you need a 50 BMG but over penetration kind of becomes useless to worry about if you miss what your aiming at anyway and if you hit what your aiming at the energy will dump and the round will stop fairly quick.  Your adversary in tourney home has likely not trained with whatever they?re packing and have forfeited all rights to life and liberty once across the property line.

[Ron M.]

I have to agree that " more power isn't always the answer.  That power has to hit the target in the right spot.".

My wife and I both shoot in several CAS/SASS shoots/matches a year. We both are very confident in our ability to hit center of mass with our Coach Guns. Susan uses a 20Ga loaded with 2 3/4 #3 buckshot and I use a 12Ga loaded with 2 3/4 #1 Buckshot. We each shoot 600 to 800 #8 or #7 1/2 shot rounds a year in matches and at least 50 defense loads too.

We like to keep lever action 357 carbines handy, due to using them in matches and being confident in our ability to hit a target at defensive ranges

. I have a Beretta M9A1 with a Streamlight TLR-1 mounted in a bedside safe and the boss lady has her S&W M&P CORE 9mm with a red dot sight and Streamlight TLR1s on her side.  I'm confident I could hit my target with my 357 Vaquero or 44/40 SAA, but, we both think it's a good idea to have a light on our defensive pistols.

My first reaction is to grab that shotgun, I know I can but 2 rounds where I need them very fast. I also know I can reload quickly if necessary.

[s0nspark]

(this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no)

Agreed - it still surprises me to hear that "argument" being used...

I mean, could you see SWAT rolling up on a situation and all running around racking pump shotguns to scare the bad guys? LOL

Surprise is a powerful tactical advantage.

[sboone]

(this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no)

Agreed - it still surprises me to hear that "argument" being used...

I mean, could you see SWAT rolling up on a situation and all running around racking pump shotguns to scare the bad guys? LOL

Surprise is a powerful tactical advantage.

HAHAHAHAHAHA I can imagine it but it?s a bunch of little smurfs in the finest black apparel 5.11 has to offer holding a bunch of 870?s and papa smurf is on top of the SWAT van with his megaphone ?KEEP AT IT BOYS I THINK WE JUST ABOUT GOT OUR POINT ACROSS THAT WE KNOW HOW TO RUN A PUMP SHOTGUN?

[ZanderMan]

Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?

I?ve done this so I know how my shotgun and my chosen loads will pattern in my house at various potential engagement distances. I will look up my photos and post them. Already posted on another forum so should be able to replicate the info.

[M1A4ME]

Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?

I?ve done this so I know how my shotgun and my chosen loads will pattern in my house at various potential engagement distances. I will look up my photos and post them. Already posted on another forum so should be able to replicate the info.

Everyone needs to do that.  Far too many people believe a shotgun charge just spreads out and envelopes the target with shot with no regard to distance from the muzzle to the target or how much shot in in the charge/pattern.

I remember my dad talking about shooting the head off of squirrels that were too close to use a normal POA on.  Like when you're sitting on a log, or up against a tree trunk, you hear something, slowly turn you head and a squirrel is 8 or 10 feet away.  He had tested his Ithaca and new how far off the end of the nose on that squirrel to aim so that only a small part of the shot charge would hit the squirrel's head vs. blowing it to pieces or missing it (I was a well know close range squirrel "misser.")  I never did get that figured out.

You're really not going to get a very wide pattern inside a house.  So you've got to put that front sight on the target.  Even with a shotgun, up close, it's "aim small, miss small."

[Earl Keese]

Has anybody mentioned the concussive effect of using a shotgun inside a house? For safe room use, at least you can have earpro on hand. For general HD, I'm still much more comfortable with a high capacity hand gun.

[s0nspark]

Has anybody mentioned the concussive effect of using a shotgun inside a house? For safe room use, at least you can have earpro on hand. For general HD, I'm still much more comfortable with a high capacity hand gun.

Absolutely! I keep earpro in the bedroom for my wife and I for that very reason.

I shudder to think of the possible effect of firing any gun indoors but more so a shotgun and especially a rifle. The rifle is loud WITH plugs and active earpro! ;-)

I'm hoping the new year will bring me the suppressor I've been drooling over for some time now. (Soon, Omega 9K, soon...) A suppressed pistol is IMO an optimal first choice for general HD use.

[ZanderMan]

My HD shotgun is this Benelli SuperNova with 18.5" barrel, tube extension, and Walther light on a 45-degree mount.  (FYI: Photos are hosted on PostImg.)


The distance from my bedroom door to the furthest line-of-sight outside entrance door is about 40' (say 14 yds), with a closer one at the kitchen that's around 1/2 that distance.  So my line of sight is bedroom door -> kitchen passageway -> entrance door that's glass on top half (yeah not a fan).


I basically have only purchased flight-control loads for HD, and a few slugs. Had an opportunity to go out and check the spread on these loads a couple months ago. You'll have to excuse my inconsistency in POA... This was free-standing, not bench-rest. Here are the 4 loads I tested:
- Hornady Varmint Express #4 (red)
- Hornady TAP 00 (red)
- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00 (blue)
- Hornady Critical Defense 00 (black)


Tested them first at 10 yards:
(Note: 9-ring is about 5.5" across. You can cover all the holes made a 10 yards with your hand.)

- Hornady Varmint Express #4

- Hornady TAP 00

- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00

- Hornady Critical Defense 00



Then at 20 yards:

- Hornady Varmint Express #4

- Hornady TAP 00

- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00

- Hornady Critical Defense 00



I was amazed at the difference in grouping at 10 yards between the Hornady TAP 00 and the Reduced Recoil version. The RR kick was noticeably less, and clearly had a tighter grouping.

I also liked the spread on the Varmint Express at 20 yards. It isn't so outrageous that I would be afraid of damaging a bunch of crap in my kitchen as I shot through that passageway, and it would be less at the 14 yards between my bedroom door and the entrance door. Makes more holes, too!

Anyway, it was a fun test, and I'm not disappointed by any of the Hornady Versa-Tite loads for HD.

I also shot a couple samples of slugs.  Amazing how clean the holes were in a smooth-bore shotgun at 30 yards.