Author Topic: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test  (Read 4252 times)

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Offline Wobbly

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Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« on: March 21, 2018, 04:52:28 PM »
DESCRIPTION
This thread is concerning testing of the "IDP#8" lead RN bullet from Missouri Bullet Co (MBC). This is a 135gr bullet designed and intended for caliber 38 Super, but it works wonderfully in 9mm, and the ogive shape is such that it fits the CZ chamber and barrel without serious issues. This bullet is sized to a diameter of 0.357" which helps insure a good tight fit.

Links: Missouri Bullet Co IDP#8 Hi-Tek and Bulk IDP#8 Bullets

This bullet is available with and without the Hi-Tek coating. I have selected the coated version which is highly preferable to the majority of our forum's shooters. The red Hi-Tek coating reduces a lot of smoke and barrel leading normally associated with shooting lead bullets.



Also see these threads:
? http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=87460.0
? http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95990.0


TESTING

Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Brass:  RWS
Powder:  Win 231 / Hodgdon HP-38
Max Velocity:  1075fps (calculated)
Primer:  Winchester WSF
OAL:  1.130"
Pistol:  SP-01 Tac
Qty:  10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  50F and highly overcast
Chrono:  ProChrono

Load      Avg Vel           SD
3.5gr          897              15
3.6             920              11
3.7             934              21
3.8             949              19
3.9             974              13
4.0           1005                7
4.1           1026                4
4.2           1037                7
4.3           1057                7

NOTES
- Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.5gr
- Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and the brass
- Recommend 4.1-4.2gr for general plinking
- No smoke noted
- Calculated Max Velocity seems to be spot on. Might be able to get in 4.4gr as Max Load.

 ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 03:55:04 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 07:15:39 PM »
Thanks for the data, sir.  One additional note:

NOTES

Oversized at .357. ;)


Wobbly, how was accuracy?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 09:41:50 PM »
Wasn't shooting at a target, but rather a 6" steel target hung above and behind the chrono. Accuracy improved when the SD's dropped at 4.0gr and above.
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 10:05:10 PM »






 ;)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 10:08:55 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Mick-S

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 10:50:47 AM »
What does "SD" refer to?
I'm just getting interested in reloading and starting to read up about it.

Thanks

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 11:04:00 AM »
What does "SD" refer to?

Standard Deviation

When we develop loads, the preferred method is to build "ladders" with a particular bullet and powder, where each rung of the ladder will have a different charge weight.  Rungs on the ladders might be 8 rounds or 10 rounds, or whatever -- some people do 20.  Then we shoot them over a chronograph and examine various data points at each charge weight. 

Standard deviation is one data point.  It's basically a reference to how spread out velocities are relative to the average velocity for a particular group.

Another data point is extreme spread, often abbreviated ES, which is simply how far apart the slowest and fastest cartridges were in feet/second.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 12:02:53 PM »
What does "SD" refer to?
I'm just getting interested in reloading and starting to read up about it.

Thanks

Mick -
Welcome Aboard !

Good question ! In other words, it's a way of measuring the accuracy of the cartridge assembly. In my personal opinion I consider anything under 20 to be pretty darn good. Whether the SD number is reflecting materials or human error can be hard to tell. Since my SD numbers start out pretty good, then dip down into "unbelievably good" is a pretty good indicator that the nature of the powder is changing as the chamber pressure increases, thus making the powder behave in more predicable ways.

In other words, some people here think that the powder measures made by the company I prefer are not that accurate, and might blame high SD numbers on my equipment. But I loaded all these in one session, using as nearly identical process as possible. I was very mindful of all this and therefore very careful. So the dip in the SD numbers tend to point to the behaviors of the powder, and not so much to something at my end (meaning me or my equipment).

There's always finger pointing. It's just nice to have them pointing at something else besides me for a change.  ;D


Hope this helps !
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:50:07 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 04:04:15 PM »
some people here think that the powder measures made by the company I prefer are not that accurate,

It's not that I think your powder drop is imprecise.  It's just not as precise as mine.   ;)




Offline newageroman

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 06:40:24 PM »
Thanks for the info.
How much $ per bullet? Would you recommend these against the PD bullet load (that I'm leaning toward trying next)?

For ladder load dev -  I run cases through the 650 after setting the min charge weight. Then when going up the ladder I will just pull the case (with min load) and manually weigh (frankfort arsenal digital scale) and trickle powder and then put them back in under the seating station. Mainly because adjusting the powder drop to be .1 up each time and getting it to stay there is just as much a chore for me as trickling a little more powder - if your only doing 10 cases.


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SP-01-SAO-compedOpenMajor w/DOT
97B stock for now
SAR P8L
..others..

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 07:34:31 PM »
How much $ per bullet? Would you recommend these against the PD bullet load (that I'm leaning toward trying next)?


Price depends upon volume. MBC uses USPS Flat Rate shipping, so typically a minimum of 2000 gets the best shipping price. That is, the fixed shipping fee is spread over more bullets. Four 500-piece boxes fit pretty good into a Large Flat Rate box.

MBC DOES offer the "Bullet Bundle" plan on these, where they fill the box until the 70# limit is reached. That works out to be around 3000 with these bullets.


• These are an excellent coated lead plinking round that loads easily in the CZ chamber, is a size that really fits the barrel nicely, and comes from a company with an outstanding track record for next day shipments. $231 for 3000 bullets.

• Precision Delta is an excellent 124gr Jacketed competition round. Their current price is $252 for 3000 bullets when you use the "PD15" discount code.

Apples and oranges.

So it depends on what you're looking for.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 09:29:33 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline newageroman

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 12:05:25 AM »
Thanks for the pricing/shipping info!
75B-milsurp- (first CZ build)
SP-01-SAO-compedOpenMajor w/DOT
97B stock for now
SAR P8L
..others..

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 07:14:09 AM »
I have never chronographed a single round I've reloading/fired.  Bought one a year or so back and (so far) have never used it.  Might be neat, might use it someday when I have lots of time and no one is around on the range (probably need to take it home one weekend and get it figured out on the "range up above the garden".

Over the years I've read of a few instances where a large number for SD still shot very good groups and the person posting about it was curious how they could get such good groups with a large SD.  The answer was usually that sometimes that just happens.

Standard Deviation is one measure of consistency of whatever parameter you're measuring/recording.  Velocity.  No one does it for group size, but it could be done.  I don't think anyone does it for cartridge overall length, but it could be.

When I was working as a process/production engineer in one of the plastics industries we would start off with no less than 100 samples (readings of the operational temperatures/pressures/percent power/rpm/percent load, etc., etc., etc. and average all of them together (for that particular parameter).  Then we'd let the computer do the calculations to give us the average, the standard deviation and an upper/lower limit of three standard deviations from the average.  That gave us the average (say pressure at a point in the process), the standard deviation and +/- 3 standard deviations from that average to use as an upper limit (+3 sd) and a lower limit (- 3 SD).

Then we'd continue to monitor the process (still collecting data from all those places/conditions in the process).  We looked for two things.
One was a deviation that was above the upper limit or below the lower limit.  If we saw that it indicated a change in the process that could affect the quality of the product or the ability of the process to continue running/making product.  The second thing we looked for was 5 or more readings that trended up, or down.  That was an early indicator of a slower, but meaningful change in the process that could affect quality, or the process itself.  As long as the data points continued to move up/down within that range of upper/lower limits and did not trend up/down more than 5 data points then the process was "normal" and no actions/worries.

That's a sort of short explanation of how we used those numbers/calculations for work.  If you see an actionable deviation then you need to do some trouble shooting to find out what has changed in your process.

If you checked velocity on every round you fired you'd look for similar stuff - a change in velocity outside those control limits or a trend up/down.  It might mean a change in seating depth, change in case mouth crimp, change in amount of powder, change in case volume, change in bullet weight, etc.  Or course, if you check all that stuff at the time you "make" the round you greatly reduce the issues due to things you can control and then you have to look at stuff like primers and powder quality/consistentcy - if you have the resourses/ability to do that.

I just worry about group size.  Which, most of the time in my experience, comes with loads somewhat less than maximum pressure/velocity.

An illustration of different numbers that give similar results for average velocity , except for standard deviation.  Which one would you rather have for your new load?

         
   vel/fps              vel/fps
   1500.00              1250.00
   1400.00              1270.00
   1300.00              1240.00
   1100.00              1260.00
   1000.00              1280.00
         
   1260.00     average   1260.00

   207.36       sd            15.81
         
I stopped carrying the SIG 556R.  SIG changed models and couple/three times and stopped supporting it with parts.  So, I stopped supporting SIG.  Back to the tried/true AR15 Carbine.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 05:58:14 PM »
Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Brass:  RWS
Powder:  Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity:  1075fps (calculated)
Primer:  Remington 1-1/2
OAL:  1.130"
Pistol:  P10c
Qty:  10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  60F and highly overcast
Chrono:  ProChrono

Load      Avg Vel           SD

3.2gr          897              14
3.3             920              12
3.4             934              10
3.5             949              10
3.6             974                8
3.7             Calculated Max Load

NOTES
- Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.2gr
- Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and the brass
- Recommend 3.5-3.6gr for general plinking
- Minor smoke
- Calculated Max Velocity seems to be low. Need more investigation.
- My powder measure is more accurate than ID's
- No tested load would lock the stock P10c slide back

 ;)







« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 05:13:15 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline double-d

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2018, 10:47:27 AM »
Thanks for the load data. 
Unfortunately I couldn't locate the 135gr #8 on MBC's site, perhaps they don't list what they are out of stock on(?).

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2018, 11:29:09 AM »
My assumption is that you couldn't find it because you were looking in 9mm, and this is a 38 Super bullet.  It's over-sized by .001 at .357 instead of the typical .356 for 9mm lead.   Don't worry that it says it is for 38 Super.  It works great for 9mm.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=20&secondary=&keywords=