Looking for a recommendation for Precision Delta

[IDescribe]

I don't use case lube on pistol cases when using carbide dies.  That's why I bought carbide dies.
 

I felt the same way... right up until I had a case gall and get stuck in a Redding sizing die.    Lesson learned.

I think this might be one of those situations where it's not a problem until it's a problem.   I felt/heard the signs. Things were (I presume) heating up and expanding, and a few hundred rounds in, one stuck a little - the press resisted just a little and it made a little smacky (like chewing gum or taffy) sound when it released the case as the ram started to come down, and I didn't recognize it for what it was.  A few strokes later, it stuck hard.  I applied some extra force, and the case pulled out of the shell plate. 

Started using case lube after that, and the difference in force needed to operate the press dropped significantly. So much smoother now. And I'm sure much less wear and tear on the cases.

[Wobbly]

I just have a few books, here?s what I have found so far for Win231/HP38in the following books:

Lee modern reloading:                                                  125gr jacketed    1.069 OAL       2.8-3.3gr
complete reloading manual for the 9mm luger: Win 231   Win FMJ 124gr    1.1609 max     4.2-4.5gr
                                                                     HP38       125gr SIE FMJ     1.090 OAL      4.4-4.8gr
Reloading guide for pistols                                             125 gr sierra FMJ  1.090 OAL      4.4-4.8gr

Lyman doesn?t seem to have any data for this bullet.

That?s a lot of conflicting information with max loads varying  from 3.3 to 4.8 depending on the source.

OAL is not an issue for me as I don?t own a CZ, yet, (I hope you don?t hold that against me ),

? Loads will vary, across books due to many, many variables... powder lot, altitude of the test lab, barrel length of the test gun, etc, etc. Yes, you want to build a reloading book library, BUT only one book can be your go to primary source. I highly suggest you standardize on the Lyman manual.

? The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075". There is no difference between 124gr and 125gr for your purposes. The main thing is that it's within 4 or 5gr and Jacketed (not plated or cast lead).

? Now you'll want to choose an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145". Since the data was gathered at 1.075", you'll be able to load higher than 4.4gr, if say you chose a longer OAL like 1.135". The main thing to watch out for is the bullet velocity at Max Load, which is 1043fps. That velocity warns of the danger zone for W231/HP38 with jacketed 124gr bullets regardless of OAL. But, if you are simply loading target, competition, or plinking ammo, then you'll never get near Max Load anyway. So exactly where the Max Load has moved to is a moot point.

? Your previous error which cost you a barrel, was probably due to a double charge. That's the bad thing about very dense and very fast powders, such as TG. It takes so little that it's easy to place a double or triple charge inside the case, and then Bam! Very glad you weren't hurt or deterred from reloading.

When I'm king of the world, salesmen that recommend TG to first time reloaders will be shot at dawn !!  There are simply too many great powders out there that don't have half the baggage. Why risk it ? I'll get off my soap box now.

? The fact that you don't own a CZ yet, simply means you're still in training.    As per the Template give in the Stickies, we need to know more about your reloading equipment to help with your reloading process. As you probably figured out, process is everything in reloading.

All the best ! 



PS. How about putting your locale in your profile? A general area is good enough, like "East Texas".

[Pistolet]

? Loads will vary, across books due to many, many variables... powder lot, altitude of the test lab, barrel length of the test gun, etc, etc. Yes, you want to build a reloading book library, BUT only one book can be your go to primary source. I highly suggest you standardize on the Lyman manual.

? The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075". There is no difference between 124gr and 125gr for your purposes. The main thing is that it's within 4 or 5gr and Jacketed (not plated or cast lead).

? Now you'll want to choose an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145". Since the data was gathered at 1.075", you'll be able to load higher than 4.4gr, if say you chose a longer OAL like 1.135". The main thing to watch out for is the bullet velocity at Max Load, which is 1043fps. That velocity warns of the danger zone for W231/HP38 with jacketed 124gr bullets regardless of OAL. But, if you are simply loading target, competition, or plinking ammo, then you'll never get near Max Load anyway. So exactly where the Max Load has moved to is a moot point.

? Your previous error which cost you a barrel, was probably due to a double charge. That's the bad thing about very dense and very fast powders, such as TG. It takes so little that it's easy to place a double or triple charge inside the case, and then Bam! Very glad you weren't hurt or deterred from reloading.

When I'm king of the world, salesmen that recommend TG to first time reloaders will be shot at dawn !!  There are simply too many great powders out there that don't have half the baggage. Why risk it ? I'll get off my soap box now.

? The fact that you don't own a CZ yet, simply means you're still in training.    As per the Template give in the Stickies, we need to know more about your reloading equipment to help with your reloading process. As you probably figured out, process is everything in reloading.

All the best ! 



PS. How about putting your locale in your profile? A general area is good enough, like "East Texas".

I realize I left out a crucial piece of information: The bullets I ordered is a RN. The one they call 9MM 124gr FMJ  on their website. So I would assume the "The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075""is for a hollow point and would not work for a RN, right?.

Firearm
? My CZ pistol/rifle model is:                     Not a CZ but Beretta 92FS
? The caliber of my CZ is:                          9x19 Luger
? My CZ has the following changes:            D hammer spring
? I use this CZ in the following ways:         Shooting paper at the range 20-25 yards outdoors 7-15 yards indoors                 
? I want ammo accurate at:                      7-25 yards

Components
? I've been reloading for months/years:                    Two month 900 rounds
? Fully describe the maker, weight, and type bullet:    Berry 124gr RN
? Powder (brand name and load range):                    Titegroup 3.8gr
? Primer:                                                                Winchester SPP
? My Cartridge Over-All Length is:                            trying for 1.150 oal in reality it is between1.145-1.155
     I started at 1.169 until I realized there was an oal stated in the data
? Or, if your issue is with Factory ammo, just plainly state what it is  NA

Reloading Equipment
? Press brand and type:                                             Lee Classic 4-Position Turret
? Dies:                                                                     Lee 4-die set
? Scale:                                                                    Frankford Arsenal D750 digital scale and Lee Perfect Powder Scale
? Powder Measure:                                                    Lee Auto-Drum
? Do you have access to a chronograph ?                     No

Other Info
? Exactly what is your load data and where did you get it ?            Lee
? Where are you located ? Is your locale in your profile ?                Northern California

Problem Area
? for now I am trying to get away from Titegroup and Berry's and I am looking for help in loading Precision Delta 124gr RN with HP38

I have to admit that after the few incidents I've encountered, I wondered if it was wise to continue reloading but I'm still here.

[newageroman]

Welcome to the group! Good questions and great details so we can help you out. I think the guys are pretty much right on with the advice they have given. Here are my 2 pennies.

Whenever setting up for a run, I setup the powder drop to the desired charge, and then pull off 10 cases right after they are charged. I dump the powder into the pan on a digital scale. You can see lighter and heaver powder drops as you do this confirmation process. If your goal powder drop is 3.3 gns for instance (just pulling that number out of the air - not for use or your load), you should see  33.0 gns (10 cases worth). If my drop is off by more than .3 or .4 gns, I dump it all in the powder cylinder and try it again. If I go through more than 3 of these cycles, I step back and see what might be affecting the charges. When running a pile, I check about every 20 rounds to confirm powder charge. Also stay on the lookout for stepped cases (lower volume on the inside of a case) if you pick up range brass. I also started with TG because you know I'm cheap and all, but saving a red cent or two over other powders that fill the case more is not worth the risk and the horror stories I've read about.

This may not apply in your case, but if loading on a single stage, I always visually confirm powder in the case immediately after dropping powder, and then immediately seat bullet. I feel better about that process than moving full cases here and there, inspecting, then back to bullet seating and ect.

I've had a couple of squibs in the beginning, but try to minimize the chances of that happening again.

Keep us up on how things work out for you.

[M1A4ME]

One thing about most powder measures and powder.

You'll dump some powder into the measure hopper.  Observe/note the level in the hopper.  As you adjust the measure to get the charge weight you're looking for you dump the powder back into the top of the hopper.  When you're done making your adjustments and getting the charge weight you want - notice how the level in the hopper has dropped - even though it has the same amount of powder in it you originally dumped into it from the powder "can."  The vibration causes it to settle/compact some in the hopper.

When I'm running my powder measure I try not to let the level in the hopper go below 1/2 full.  When it gets down to 1/2 full I top it off from the jug.  That gives the powder fresh from the jug time to settle/compact as you work your way through the powder in the bottom half of the hopper.

With "tiny" charges you load with some pistol powder you many not need to keep it topped off.  For powders that use more powder per charge (slow burning pistol powders and rifle powders) you don't want to let the hopper get too low or you can add to metering issues till you get that new powder settled/compacted in the hopper.

[Wobbly]

I realize I left out a crucial piece of information: The bullets I ordered is a RN. The one they call 9MM 124gr FMJ  on their website. So I would assume the "The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075""is for a hollow point and would not work for a RN, right?.

Nope. Reloading 101 here....

? The powder is accelerating WEIGHT. A) So the bullets must weigh about the same. In this case any data for 122gr to 126gr will work just great. B) If you cannot find something around 124gr, then use the next heaviest load, say for instance 130 or 135gr. (In this latter case you'll need to proceed more slowly, but it can be done safely.)

? Then, becasue the sliding friction is heavily involved in allowing the bullet to accelerate, the MATERIAL that touches the barrel has to be the same. So we only compare lead bullets to lead bullets, only compare plated bullets to plated bullets, and jacketed to jacketed. Now "jacketed bullets" go by many different names: ball, FMJ, JHP, fully enclosed, etc.

So using a published load for a 125gr JHP for your loading of a 124gr jacketed RN is going to give results so similar, you won't be able to tell until you get a chrono.

Every other detailed difference falls out of the equation becasue you're going to begin at the Starting Load and work your way slowly up, using what's called an incremental load or "ladder".

Follow all that ? It will become second nature after a few weeks.

Hope this helps.   

[Pistolet]

Nope. Reloading 101 here....

? The powder is accelerating WEIGHT. A) So the bullets must weigh about the same. In this case any data for 122gr to 126gr will work just great. B) If you cannot find something around 124gr, then use the next heaviest load, say for instance 130 or 135gr. (In this latter case you'll need to proceed more slowly, but it can be done safely.)

? Then, becasue the sliding friction is heavily involved in allowing the bullet to accelerate, the MATERIAL that touches the barrel has to be the same. So we only compare lead bullets to lead bullets, only compare plated bullets to plated bullets, and jacketed to jacketed. Now "jacketed bullets" go by many different names: ball, FMJ, JHP, fully enclosed, etc.

So using a published load for a 125gr JHP for your loading of a 124gr jacketed RN is going to give results so similar, you won't be able to tell until you get a chrono.

Every other detailed difference falls out of the equation becasue you're going to begin at the Starting Load and work your way slowly up, using what's called an incremental load or "ladder".

Follow all that ? It will become second nature after a few weeks.

Hope this helps.   

Yes I understand. I was worried that the bullet length of a round nose and a hollow point not being the same might affect the seating depth and chamber pressure. But since you suggest an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145 I guess it should make up for the difference. Is this right? I am also concerned that my oals with (Berrys 124 rn) vary between 1.145 and 1.155 when I am trying for 1.150 Is that typical?
When Making a ladder I will start at 10 rounds at 3.9gr, 10 rounds at 4.0, 10 at 4.1, etc.


[Mods shortened]

[Wobbly]

I think I have figured out my squib issue, When I was making a ladder, I was disorganized and doing too many things at once, removing the shell from the press to weigh the powder using two different scales, sometimes having a load on each scale to try to go faster so it was easy to get mixed up.

You only listed one scale. Most reloaders want one really good balance beam scale made by Ohaus, such as a RCBS 505 or Dillon Eliminator. Then possibly an electronic or "digital" scale on standby to speed up long, tedious tasks like weighing bullets.

As with the manuals, you'll want one primary "go to" scale. And this scale you'll want to be a quality item so you can use it for 20 years. In that way when you dig out an old load you haven't used in 12 years, you can be sure you're accurately duplicating the load. And you'll generally want a balance beam scale as "primary" simply becasue electronic scales haven't proved to have long lives.

If you want to use your digital scale as your primary, then you MUST get a set of check weights that check the weight range of your powder loads. So for pistol loads you'll need a check weight in the 5gr range; for rifle loads a check weight in the 25gr range. A check weight in the 100gr range is absolutely useless if you're going to measure powder drops of 4.6gr. Follow ?

I am being much more methodical now.

And that's commendable. Crawl before you walk; walk before you run. In reloading, slow and methodical equals safe.

The use of W231 is a big step, becasue the "load window" is about 3x wider than TG. And, becasue of the more complete "case fill" with W231, getting a double load is nearly impossible. Secondly, wide variations are always a hallmark of the novice reloader. W231 is simply going to allow your powder weights to vary to a greater degree without the severe penalties (blown up barrels) that TG imposed.

The more you continue to reload, the more refined and consistent your process will become. In reloading, process is everything.


? One of the process segments you can work on today is measuring and dropping powder. You don't need to be reloading to work on your "powder skills". In fact it's best if you hone your powder skills BEFORE you start reloading.

Do this: Fill your powder measure with W231. Without changing any settings or making ANY adjustments, start dumping powder into a 9mm case.... then using your electronic scale (only becasue it's faster) weigh and record each dump. Do this 15-20 times.

What you will see is that the first 3-8 "drops" weren't very accurate. It's not until the powder shakes down to a consistent density that the "drops" become a consistent weight. From this you will learn NOT to use the first 10 drops from ANY powder measure. Each PM is different. You may learn yours is only accurate after 20, or 4. No one knows until you do this exercise.

All the best. 

[Wobbly]

I was worried that the bullet length of a round nose and a hollow point not being the same might affect the seating depth and chamber pressure. But since you suggest an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145 I guess it should make up for the difference. Is this right?

? We have found that bullets seated between 0.200 and 0.250" into the case tend to be more accurate. So if you are loading for accuracy (and who wouldn't be ?), you'll get a head start by simply starting at an OAL that renders that condition true.

? While we talk in terms of OAL, that's not what we really care about. What we want to know is the position of the base of the bullet. If you are swapping out bullets of the same weight and material (as per the thread above) and using the same load data, if you can keep the position of the bullet's base the same by modifying the OAL, then you will get nearly identical shooting results from both bullets.

? Yes, in some instances HP bullets are longer due to the missing lead in the core. But this is not always true. So one of the things you should be recording in your notebook for each new bullet you encounter is the bullet's LENGTH.



? Do a search here for a thread. Member 1SOW did a huge spreadsheet at one time of bullet lengths just for the above purpose. This data should be in your reloading notebook just to assist you in such decisions.

? OAL is part science and part art. You should determine the Max OAL for your bullet in your barrel for every bullet. (See the thread in our Stickies.) Then you are free to use any OAL between Max OAL and the load data. So the OAL from the Lyman data was ~1.080". If your Max OAL pushes out to something like 1.152", then you can use anything between those 2 numbers... while also considering what was said above about bullet-to-case engagement. The cartoon below shows visually....

I am also concerned that my OALs with (Berrys 124gr RN) vary between 1.145 and 1.155" when I am trying for 1.150". Is that typical?

Yes, novice reloaders don't pulling the op lever the exact same way every time, and so it's the OAL that suffers. You will quickly get over this as you quit worrying about incidental and start to focus on your technique. This usually disappears after 1000 rounds.

A better seating die that fits the bullet nose more closely helps. Lubing your empty cases on a lube pad really helps.

When Making a ladder I will start at 10 rounds at 3.9gr, 10 rounds at 4.0, 10 at 4.1, etc.

Here's a better way. Divide the total load range by 4 or 5. With TG you are forced to increment by steps of 0.1gr, but with W231 you'll see that increments of 0.2gr are much more feasible. (Remember, by loading longer than the Lyman load data, your new Max Load is probably in the range of 4.6 or 4.7gr.) Then load 10 of each of those. 

Also, save yourself some work. Nothing good ever happens at Max Load, so there's no need to load at that incremental load.


See? Easy as pie.   

[Wobbly]

Here's the bullet length thread....

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62657.0

 

[Pistolet]

Also, save yourself some work. Nothing good ever happens at Max Load, so there's no need to load at that incremental load.

See? Easy as pie.   

Given my history with reloading, I'm not brave enough to go for the maximum load .
Well, my bullets have arrived and it looks like I have my plan of action. Thanks for all your tips, I'll report soon.

[newageroman]

I've been loading for 5 years now and have only gone to max load on any one time for a rifle round. It was mostly to look for pressure signs. Now I never load to max load, just seems like a waste of time. From my experience, the most accurate rounds are not the hottest, they are somewhere in the middle of min/max. I'll start at min and go up .3 gns until 60-75% of max, then I stop and evaluate groups. I don't even attempt max loads. It's easier on the gun and brass too. Its an all around win IMO, the only thing you are not getting is terminal power(which doesn't matter for paper punching) and reduction on windage/elevation(which doesn't matter for pistol).

[recoilguy]

This forum is the best reloading forum that is a gun brand forum I have ever seen!
the people here are very knowledgeable and very thorough. They will ask many questions and be
sure they have all the details to get you as accurate info as possible. I like this site a lot.
the use lube don't use lube question is one I find amusing. Lube on 9mm in carbide is not needed but will do no damage In my opinion but I have only loaded about 65,000 rounds in the past 5 or 6 years. I have tried it and the ease of loading is not noticeable to me at all. But if you want to do it or if you do awesome, I color every primer I put in for quick referencing load data. Totally unnecessary but I do it every time
IE green Primer is my HP 38 - Precision Delta RN load with Federal primers at 1.109 OAL - Red primer is Vit320 PD JHP Fed Primers 1.109 OAL...??.do I need to do that, nope does it help? I think so, does it take time to transfer all Fed primers into a Winchester tray so I can color every one with a sharpie? yes it does. Does it make me happy? Unbelievably so!!!!

From what I have read here you are making a good decision to go to PD 124 RN and push them out with HP-38 Like everyone has said it is pretty hard to load these wrong, if you are careful. My advice to you now is
- find a recipe that works for you
- load it as much and as you can and make as many as you can to get GREAT at that recipe
- it will give you confidence and you will enjoy shooting
- you don't have to have variety, you have to be good at it
- then maybe try another load
- Keep good accurate notes and label your boxes for referencing
- have some components on hand so if you are loading and it is going good you can keep going
- take the tips about your scales and weighing the powder you have gotten here seriously. There is wisdom in this thread.
- Be safe - have fun - be safe

RCG

[Wobbly]

- Keep good accurate notes and label your boxes for referencing

I use an 8.5 x11 lab notebook or a "single subject" spiral bound notebook.

To me, what changes a load the most is the bullet. So I dedicate an entire new (right side) page to each bullet. The first thing I record is all the bullet dimensions. Then I do our "push test" and find the Max OAL for that bullet in my barrel. Then I decide on my OAL and look at the resulting case engagement ("seating depth"). Once I get all that worked out I never change the OAL again, unless the feeding is funky or something like that.

Then under that I start recording loads and load results. I may use 5 or 6 different powders over the course of the next several years. If I run out of room, I just carry on over on the left hand page.

I try to segregate this way and have a notebook for pistol, another for revolver, and a third book for rifle loads. I know I'll have more than one notebook filled in a very short time. In this way new pistol cartridges (like 38 Super or 380Auto) go right in the same book with 9x19 Luger. Lots of pistol cartridges are very similar (38 Super is simply a 9x19 on steroids and uses the same bullets and powders) so having those in the same book helps make comparisons much easier. Same thing goes for 40S&W and 10mmAuto. And the same again with 38Spcl and 357Mag. Best to save room. Notebooks are cheap.

 

[Boris_LA]

I use Excel spreadsheets. One per caliber. Separate work-pages per powder and one for favorites. This way I can group and re-position/group/combine the data as it updates. Columns include the OAL, charge weight, Chrono data, group size on the different distances, comments and published load data notes with reference where it came from.  Rows with better/best loads color highlighted. Laptop is seating right in the garage on the desk.
Easy to find and all necessary information at glance.