The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: 30-30 on November 09, 2019, 02:23:48 AM
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I carry a Glock and other assorted striker-fire pistols since 1996 (mostly connected with LE). The striker-fire platform is good, but sometimes I think we have become very comfortable with a trigger system that doesn't take much to make it go bang (4-5.5-lbs of trigger pressure doesn't leave a lot of room for error) .
I've always looked at the Glock "safe-action" as advertising spin, as long as you keep your finger off the trigger you're good to go--but that can go south real fast when stress enters the picture.
That's why I've gravitated to the CZ P-07 pistol for off-duty and home defense (looked at the Beretta and Sig, but liked the CZ better). I like the extra measure of safety that a DA/SA, a decocker, and a hammer offers--this is strictly my lousy cranky back-east opinion -- YMMV.
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I agree the P07 is an excellent pistol. It's what I carry regularly (concealed carry out in public places or on road trips).
But I carry mine cocked and locked. I know it works in DA but I never shoot it that way. I like that nice 3&1/4 lbs. SA trigger pull.
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I carry my P-07 daily. Decocker here. Practice draw and first DA pull religiously.
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I carry a Glock and other assorted striker-fire pistols since 1996 (mostly connected with LE). The striker-fire platform is good, but sometimes I think we have become very comfortable with a trigger system that doesn't take much to make it go bang (4-5.5-lbs of trigger pressure doesn't leave a lot of room for error) .
I've always looked at the Glock "safe-action" as advertising spin, as long as you keep your finger off the trigger you're good to go--but that can go south real fast when stress enters the picture.
That's why I've gravitated to the CZ P-07 pistol for off-duty and home defense (looked at the Beretta and Sig, but liked the CZ better). I like the extra measure of safety that a DA/SA, a decocker, and a hammer offers--this is strictly my lousy cranky back-east opinion -- YMMV.
+1 Well said!
I had some nice Full and Compact striker-fired (HKVP9, Glock 17 g4, XDS etc) and ditched them all in favor of DA/SA.
Love my CZ SP-01 TAC, P-07, P-01 and RAMI BD. The P-07 especially continues to impress as an outstanding pistol.
Only have one striker left; a SIG P365 and would love to find a micro-size 9 DA/SA decocker to replace it.
Talk'in about Back to the Future......Just bought a 1999 Gen 3 S&W CS9 Chief's Special. Although light enough at 20.5oz for pocket-carry, it's just a wee big. But it's an 'almost micro 9' all-alloy hammer-fired DA/SA Decocker.
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I love shooting my P10c on the range, but I carry a hammer gun.
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My shooting history started with 1911 and then went into revolvers, then back to 1911 and then to Hi Powers and finally my last issue pistol was Glock.
I love my Hi Powers as they stood by me through thick and thin. When we went with Glocks, I very soon loved the difference in weight of the guns but never fell in love with them.
I retired and moved back to the USA, where I connected with friends that I had met from the army in the USA. More than a few of the people that served in the unit they had served in were big on CZ P07/9. I shot a CGW P09 of a friend and that was it.
I like the DA/SA of the CZ for several reasons. First I spent a lot of time carrying a pistol with no holster, so that if I needed to dump the pistol I could just dump it and spare mags and had no holster to worry about or mag carriers. So I like the added safety of a DA/SA carried with no holster. The second reason is that under real conditions if I have someone at gun point it is a longer harder pull so the chance of a accidental round going off is greatly reduced. At civilian gun fighting distance and with practice the DA/SA will not make a difference in the outcome of the fight. I lastly like the fact that I don't have to worry about taking a pistol off safety, since force on force training has shown this to be an issue even with long term 1911/ Hi Power users.
I carry my CGW CZ P07 when ever I can, so far it has seen some countries in Africa, Latin America and of course USA.
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I like the DA/SA of the CZ for several reasons. First I spent a lot of time carrying a pistol with no holster, so that if I needed to dump the pistol I could just dump it and spare mags and had no holster to worry about or mag carriers.
YONI -- thank you for your comments. I'm with you on the "no holster carry" of a DA/SA pistol. There are times that you can simply shove a P-07 in your pants, a carry bag, in a glove compartment, or on a night stand without the worry of a striker-fire. The DA/SA gives you options that a striker-fire pistol can't.
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Agreed with all of this, and that's why I just can't bring myself to daily carry a striker gun, even though I've owned a number of them and some of them, like my P365, are easier and more convenient to carry than my P-07. I don't care how experienced you are, accidents can (and do) happen. A DA trigger on the first pull is an extra bit of insurance that is easy to train for. I did a training course with Ernest Langdon earlier this year (probably the most experienced shooter I've ever had the privilege of sharing a range with) and he feels exactly the same way. For many of us, it isn't a lack of experience that causes us to mistrust striker triggers- quite the opposite, in fact.
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Agreed with all of this, and that's why I just can't bring myself to daily carry a striker gun, even though I've owned a number of them and some of them, like my P365, are easier and more convenient to carry than my P-07. I don't care how experienced you are, accidents can (and do) happen. A DA trigger on the first pull is an extra bit of insurance that is easy to train for. I did a training course with Ernest Langdon earlier this year (probably the most experienced shooter I've ever had the privilege of sharing a range with) and he feels exactly the same way. For many of us, it isn't a lack of experience that causes us to mistrust striker triggers- quite the opposite, in fact.
Spot on!
Although I like almost everything about my P365 now with over 3600 flawless rounds; the trigger keeps getting smoother and now breaks cleanly at just under 5-1/2 lbs which I consider too light for pocket carry. I simply can't bring myself to trust it even in a soft pocket holster. I keep falling back on my DAO SIG 290rs that I've updated with XRay-3 sights. I know it's not going off without a whole lotta deliberate effort. :-\
Sure wish someone like CZ would revisit a micro-9 DA/SA hammer pistol. Kinda like a S&W 3rd Gen single-stack CS9 Chief's Special, maybe just a wee smaller with the capacity of a P365.
A sub-compact P-07sc (P-05) anyone?
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I would buy a sub com packet P07 in the blink of an eye as long as it would take P07/09 mags
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I would buy a sub com packet P07 in the blink of an eye as long as it would take P07/09 mags
+1
If it could take the P-10s 12 round mags, like the original P-10C mags are backwards compatible with the P-07, it would make them less expensive and more available!
And of course make the longer P-07/09 mags fit too.
Ohhh, and while they're bringing us Back into the Future; can they please make the P-09/07 and P-05 (or P-07s or whatever ya wanna call it) Optics-Ready too like the striker line. ;D
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If you prefer a heavy trigger pull and like striker fired guns look at the FNS pistols. 6 to 6.5 lb. trigger pulls that are double action.
Unlike the Glock/XD/XDM/M&P pistols the trigger pull on an FNS moves the whole sear rearward - forcing the striker farther to the rear - prior to finally lifting in the front and dropping in the back to release the striker. Weird. Weird feel. Weird looking if you pull the slide off and watch that sear and pin move rearwards while pulling the trigger.
About the size of my P07 but holds two more rounds in .40 S&W.
Just not as accurate as my P07. At least not with the ammo I've tried so far.
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I carry the P-07 or P-01. Bothe superb shooters. Agree the decocked state is a measure of safety I can appreciate...
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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If you prefer a heavy trigger pull and like striker fired guns look at the FNS pistols. 6 to 6.5 lb. trigger pulls that are double action.
Unlike the Glock/XD/XDM/M&P pistols the trigger pull on an FNS moves the whole sear rearward - forcing the striker farther to the rear - prior to finally lifting in the front and dropping in the back to release the striker. Weird. Weird feel. Weird looking if you pull the slide off and watch that sear and pin move rearwards while pulling the trigger.
About the size of my P07 but holds two more rounds in .40 S&W.
Just not as accurate as my P07. At least not with the ammo I've tried so far.
Isn't the KAHR trigger mechanism similar? Listed as DAO but really a partially cocked striker??
And SIG's DAK system too?
I personally prefer hammer-fired DA/SA.
But it's really hard to find a pocket-sized DA/SA (decocker) hammer-fired pistol. Everything I've found is either DAO, SAO/Safety, or Striker. Closest I've come is the 3rd Gen S&W CS9 but still a bit too large.
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Vinny, I don't know. I had no idea when I bought it that it was so different from the M&P and XD guns I already had bought over the years.
I just know that none of my other striker fired pistols actually move the sear rearward some distance before tipping the front up/back down to release the striker.
It has other differences (trigger stays to the rear until the slide goes forward, no coiled trigger return spring to break - that I can see down inside there, trigger rearward travel to striker release distance is far better than any striker fired pistol I have, and many of the hammer fired guns, except the M&P with the Apex trigger kit in it, truly ambidextrous controls, etc.) Like I said, it's going to have to shoot a lot better than it does for me to put it in the same class as the P07, but right now it's fun to mess with - and the Compact FNS .40 is much smaller than the P07 and can still use the 14 round magazines. Drawback is the Compact isn't even as accurate (so far) as the 4" pistols.
Not advocating it over anything else, just saying it's different for those that like to try different stuff.
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M1A4ME,
Thanks for the explanation.
FNS is not afraid to think outside the box; sometimes focused more on military requirements than consumer. But really good combat stuff IMHO.
I have an FNX-45 Tactical I really like. 15+1 of 45ACP yet the grip is only about 1.3" wide. The frame-mounted safety lever goes down to decock for DA/SA, or all the way up for safety. Push the safety down to middle position (horizontal) for SAO and you can ride the safety like a 1911. The DA trigger cams up smoothly to a clean break and nice SA from there. One of the first optics-ready pistols that truly co-witnesses the excellent night irons with a Venom. Designed for the first round of the US Military's pistol replacement contest. I suppose it was expensive, not 9mm, not modular, and not striker so US chose the SIG 320; but it's one heck of a hammer-fired combat pistol!
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Remember, the US Military placed a manual safety on the M-17 (Sig P-320). I carried a P-320 for awhile, but found it somewhat disconcerting that there was nothing to stop the trigger from going bang (5.5 -6.5 lb with no resistance). The Glock has the trigger safety in the middle of the trigger, which I think is the better design, the CZ P-10 has the same safety feature... but in the end I like a heavier longer trigger pull of a DA/SA... YMMV
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I like safeties. My FNS pistols both have ambidextrous thumb safeties. Just like my P07/P09/CZ75B/CZ85/TS .40/P01 Omegas/CZ75 Compact.
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I like safeties on rifles. I do not like them at all on pistols, particularly if it's one I'm carrying for SD.
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VINNY: I agree with what you said early on in this topic about the SIG P365. I also have a P365 but with thumb safety and now it is the only striker fired pistol I have, and I have several pistols. For me, any added safety feature is a plus. When I began having kids it put me in even more of a 'safety first' mind-set. I sold all my guns without a manual thumb safety, bought a primary gun safe and 2 quick access biometric safes for my wife and I. I do catch a little bit of light-hearted flack for my thumb safety preference but I don't mind. I practice as much as possible with any pistols I carry in an attempt to be as proficient as possible if the need should arise to defend myself, my family or others. Thankfully I haven't been put in that situation. But, I also haven't been subject to the stress, fear and anxiety that a person can experience in a situation like that so a thumb safety, for me, is an added layer of protection against an accidental discharge in a high stress draw situation.
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VINNY: I agree with what you said early on in this topic about the SIG P365. I also have a P365 but with thumb safety and now it is the only striker fired pistol I have, and I have several pistols. For me, any added safety feature is a plus. When I began having kids it put me in even more of a 'safety first' mind-set. I sold all my guns without a manual thumb safety, bought a primary gun safe and 2 quick access biometric safes for my wife and I. I do catch a little bit of light-hearted flack for my thumb safety preference but I don't mind. I practice as much as possible with any pistols I carry in an attempt to be as proficient as possible if the need should arise to defend myself, my family or others. Thankfully I haven't been put in that situation. But, I also haven't been subject to the stress, fear and anxiety that a person can experience in a situation like that so a thumb safety, for me, is an added layer of protection against an accidental discharge in a high stress draw situation.
GunnerDad, I think your strategy and M1A4ME's SAO/safety as well makes good sense. A friend of mine recently went from EDC Glock 43 to a SIG P365 with the manual safety for the extra 4 rounds. If you stay with ONE SD manual of arms and regularly practice & train, I agree the extra layer of safety is a good thing. I've chosen hammer-fired DA 1st round as my layer of safety and my FNX-45, CZ's and SIGs all run as DA/SA decockers. I also like that I can thumb-ride the hammer down when re-holstering.
The P-07 & P-09 with Omega trigger give you both carry options. Nice!
My only exception is my P365 and for now I've chosen not to carry it. Just hoping a firmer trigger-pull kit might become available like a bit longer & smooth 7-1/2-8-1/2lbs, either thru SIG or after-market. Then maybe I'd carry it......but for now, when I need to pocket carry I'll continue with my Hammer-fired DAO Sig290rs micro-9.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
I get and respect that you're just more comfortable with the safety engaged and hammer down.
With the pistol decocked and hammer resting down on firing pin block it's really not 'half-cocked' IMO.
The long heavy DA pull from there is considered safety enough and I believe CZ considers manual safety and DA to be redundant and possibly unsafe if you don't realize safety is engaged when you need it to fire DA!
But I defer to those who might actually have an Omega set up with the manual safety if the safety can be engaged with hammer down.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
What gun do you have other than a Beretta 90 series or S&W 3rd gen style gun that can have the hammer down/safety engaged? CZ's don't operate that way. Maybe there's a couple brands I'm not thinking of at the moment. Walther PPK operates that way but no one with any sense would bet their life on one of those.
I'm perfectly comfortable with My DA/SA guns carried hammer down with decocker and no safety lever. They're just as safe that way as any DA revolver.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
What gun do you have other than a Beretta 90 series or S&W 3rd gen style gun that can have the hammer down/safety engaged? CZ's don't operate that way. Maybe there's a couple brands I'm not thinking of at the moment. Walther PPK operates that way but no one with any sense would bet their life on one of those.
I'm perfectly comfortable with My DA/SA guns carried hammer down with decocker and no safety lever. They're just as safe that way as any DA revolver.
YES!
Even with the 3rd Gen Smiths; it was common and considered safe practice to decock the pistol and holster without ever activating the safety. Remember, on hammer-fired pistols you can also press your thumb down on the hammer as you holster for an extra margin of safety. Conversely, if you want to carry cocked/locked you typically activate the safety and holster without ever decocking. I guess CZ's are set up to prevent accidentally doing both! ::)
I suppose if I was really worried about bedside or carry safety with a chambered round....I might consider 'Israeli Carry' with a loaded magazine but nothing chambered; requiring learning to rack the slide upon draw to load a round and SA from there.
Not for me ......But, each to their own.
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1. No need to have a safety ON and the hammer down. At that point it's kin to a revolver. Takes a long heavy trigger pull to make it cock the hammer and drop it - and you have to pull that trigger due to the firing pin block.
2. CZ doesn't recommend trying to put the safety ON with the hammer down or at half cock. You can damage the internal mechanism if you try to pull the trigger (with the parts in that configuration) with the safety ON.
Just tried all of mine and they will allow the safety to be moved to the ON position when at half cock. Never realized it because I never tried it. Mine are only at half cock when field stripping on for cleaning/lubing.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
I have to ask why?
The only situation where this make sense to me is if your in LE and are thinking about slowing a bad guy down in a gun grab situation.
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I have a new in the box, unfired PO1 Omega. I don’t use it because when I bought it I didn’t realize I had to have the hammer at least half cocked to have safety on. I like to be able to use safety with hammer down.
I may be wrong here but I think you're worried about the hammer falling from half-cocked and striking the firing pin to set off a chambered round. ND
This is not going to happen unless you pull the trigger. These pistols have a firing pin safety that is engaged and will only disengage when the trigger is pulled.
Most negligent discharge is caused by ( 2) factors.
( 1 ) drawing from The holster with your finger on the trigger. DON'T DO THAT.
( 2 ) when reholstering ( and not paying close attention to what you're doing ) a piece of your clothing gets caught on the trigger in the trigger guard or even part of your holster rig.
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Sorry, been outta town. The safety on all my Tanfoglio pistols can be actuated with the hammer in any position. I believe TriStar/Caniks of the CZ platform are the same as Tanfoglio. I like hammer down, safety on because if I’m ever in a high stress draw situation adrenaline will make a heavy DA trigger pull feel like nothing. No one knows how they’re going to react in that situation unless you have experienced it and I have not. I want to minimize my chance of an accidental discharge because, of course, no one wants to live with having shot the wrong person or themself. So I practice the way I personally feel comfortable. The more I practice I may change my style but that’s where I’m at right now.
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And I do mean hammer down with safety on, not half-cocked or full-cocked. Also I’m not in law enforcement or military service. I don’t make it a practice of putting my finger on the trigger when drawing but can anyone predict with 100% accuracy that they would NEVER do something like that accidentally in a high stress situation? Especially if they’ve never been in that situation? For ME, at this point and time, I’m not willing to take that risk. Like I said before, I just practice as much as possible in the style I’m most comfortable with. If you’ve ever been shot, trust me, bullets hurt when the shock of being shot wears off. And no I didn’t shoot myself. ;D
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Sorry, been outta town. The safety on all my Tanfoglio pistols can be actuated with the hammer in any position. I believe TriStar/Caniks of the CZ platform are the same as Tanfoglio. I like hammer down, safety on because if I’m ever in a high stress draw situation adrenaline will make a heavy DA trigger pull feel like nothing. No one knows how they’re going to react in that situation unless you have experienced it and I have not. I want to minimize my chance of an accidental discharge because, of course, no one wants to live with having shot the wrong person or themself. So I practice the way I personally feel comfortable. The more I practice I may change my style but that’s where I’m at right now.
Completely understand your concern. Especially with children in other rooms of your house.
Do you use a pistol-mounted flashlight? Is the answer is yes; you might want to consider going to a handheld flashlight instead. Identifying a serious threat before drawing your pistol makes a whole lot of sense to me.
If you've then identified a serious threat, at that point IMHO having both a safety and a DA to me is redundant. JMO
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My home defense gun is a Sarsilmaz CM9 and does have a mounted flashlight and is in a biometric safe with a full clip, one in the chamber, hammer down and safety on. When I pull it my trigger finger turns the light on then my thumb hits safety off. I never mind a DA first pull. I’d rather have a gun-mounted light so I can have a free hand if needed. My light also sticks out further than the barrel and is sturdy enough that if I got into a physical altercation with a home intruder his body wouldn’t push the slide out of battery preventing the gun from firing.
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My home defense gun is a Sarsilmaz CM9 and does have a mounted flashlight and is in a biometric safe with a full clip, one in the chamber, hammer down and safety on. When I pull it my trigger finger turns the light on then my thumb hits safety off. I never mind a DA first pull. I’d rather have a gun-mounted light so I can have a free hand if needed. My light also sticks out further than the barrel and is sturdy enough that if I got into a physical altercation with a home intruder his body wouldn’t push the slide out of battery preventing the gun from firing.
Having the pistol mounted flashlight is OK. My point was that using a good handheld light to identify a real threat before drawing or raising your pistol would help avoid pointing your pistol as a light at someone you love, and therefore less chance of the type of ND you're trying to avoid. Easy enough to drop the light to free your hand if you're in a close encounter. Just say'in.
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If I’m investigating something in the dark and there’s even a remote chance I may need to draw my weapon - I’m going to have it drawn already with the weapon light turned on and simply exercise good trigger discipline. I am quite capable of drawing my weapon under stress and not firing it. Identifying a threat and THEN drawing my weapon will make as much sense to me as waiting until then to chamber a round in it.
Then again, everyone must measure their response based upon what they themselves are comfortable with vs the type of threats they may encounter.
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If I’m investigating something in the dark and there’s even a remote chance I may need to draw my weapon - I’m going to have it drawn already with the weapon light turned on and simply exercise good trigger discipline. I am quite capable of drawing my weapon under stress and not firing it. Identifying a threat and THEN drawing my weapon will make as much sense to me as waiting until then to chamber a round in it.
Then again, everyone must measure their response based upon what they themselves are comfortable with vs the type of threats they may encounter.
Agreed.
One, I think that people often confuse the role of a handheld flashlight and a WML. They aren't the same thing, and have different uses, though a flashlight can obviously have a great deal of self-defense value as well, in several ways.
But I think it's also important for people to remember that you don't have to aim your weapon directly at someone in order to sufficiently illuminate an area (esp. indoors) with a WML. Particularly these days, with extremely bright WMLs easily available. I can keep my weapon lowered, and still illuminate a room with a 600 lumens or more light.
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If I’m investigating something in the dark and there’s even a remote chance I may need to draw my weapon - I’m going to have it drawn already with the weapon light turned on and simply exercise good trigger discipline. I am quite capable of drawing my weapon under stress and not firing it. Identifying a threat and THEN drawing my weapon will make as much sense to me as waiting until then to chamber a round in it.
Then again, everyone must measure their response based upon what they themselves are comfortable with vs the type of threats they may encounter.
Agreed.
One, I think that people often confuse the role of a handheld flashlight and a WML. They aren't the same thing, and have different uses, though a flashlight can obviously have a great deal of self-defense value as well, in several ways.
But I think it's also important for people to remember that you don't have to aim your weapon directly at someone in order to sufficiently illuminate an area (esp. indoors) with a WML. Particularly these days, with extremely bright WMLs easily available. I can keep my weapon lowered, and still illuminate a room with a 600 lumens or more light.
My 1200 lumen Olight is pretty bright!
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I have an Olight too, good product.
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Been running an Olight PL mini on my P07 and PL-2 Valkyrie on my P09 and have been pleased with performance. My hand held Olight though is not my favorite. I choose my Streamlight hand held over it for sure.
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I run an Olight PL-Mini on my P-07 as well.
And I recently put an Olight Baldr-Pro on my Scorpion. That thing is insanely bright!
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One, I think that people often confuse the role of a handheld flashlight and a WML. They aren't the same thing, and have different uses, though a flashlight can obviously have a great deal of self-defense value as well, in several ways.
But I think it's also important for people to remember that you don't have to aim your weapon directly at someone in order to sufficiently illuminate an area (esp. indoors) with a WML. Particularly these days, with extremely bright WMLs easily available. I can keep my weapon lowered, and still illuminate a room with a 600 lumens or more light.
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Agreed, many WML’s tend to be bright enough to illuminate the immediate area. I’d much rather have a free hand.