The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Tanners Owner on January 20, 2022, 08:33:46 PM
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Am interested in getting a new PCC. Currently have a Beretta CX storm, and am looking to get something more intuitive to manipulate. Cross bolt safety is awkward to use in my local competitions.
As such am seeking a thumb safety and last round bolt open feature, available- relatively inexpensive mags
I shot a friend’s scorpion- and it is in consideration for sure, but the price has risen ( along with everything else >:() the thumb safety wasn’t as convenient as I had anticipated, but doable.
Am thinking of Foxtrot Mike, Freedom Ordnance , & scorpion. Anyone have experience with these or recommendations of other brands/ models?
Thanks in advance
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I enjoyed my Scorpion after I fixed the trigger, but found it too heavy for competition. Also, the heavy bolt causes a lot of dot bounce. I sold it and built an AR9 without spending much more than the Scorp sold for.
I used an FM9 lower, Taccom ULW upper assy, Taccom ESS bolt, CMC trigger. The difference is substantial...a couple lbs lighter, better ergos, and less dot bounce, still very reliable. State of the art right now is the JP5, but that's a much bigger financial commitment.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220122/47ae3392ef2e470191e458280606c238.jpg)
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I don't compete, but I've been looking at PCC's and these are rising to the top of my list:
- Scorpion: I don't compete anyway, and I like the side charging handle, especially swappable to left side.
- Aero Precision EPC-9
- PSA AR-V
- PSA AK-V
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I already own a Scorpion carbine.
I might be interested in the CMMG Banshee in 9mm (they come also in 300 Blackout but I guess that's not a PCC anymore).
Why the Banshee and not the other AR types?
I will admit a lot of it is aesthetics. The 9mm mag is NOT a Glock mag and looks like a "proper" weapon. IMHO the only downside to Glock mags on a PCC is it looks dinky.
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My vote would be for a CMMG Banshee or a CZ Scorpion. Two of the most reliable ones out there.
The Scorpion heavy bolt moves the Red Dot a lot, but I hear a lot of people use it in competition.
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I don't have any firsthand experience with it, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but you might take a look at the Ruger PC offering.
Available in both 9mm and 40 S&W, several variations and uses Glock-common-as-dirt mags.
Also seems to be a decent variety of aftermarket upgrades.
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for me, I think a 9mm PCC needs to be a pistol length. I'm no ballistician, but IIRC 9mm muzzle velocity is optimized at approx. 9-10" of barrel length. (unless I'm confusing that with 300 BO). But regardless of muzzle velocity, I just can't understand the logic of a rifle/carbine length 9mm. Maybe it has advantages for competition rule-sets?
But for things like range fun, new shooters, and home defense (particularly the potential of home defense use by a non-shooting wife), a 7-10" barrel seems optimum.
Certainly open to correction/counterpoints.
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Back in 2017 when PCC was a provisional division in USPSA I put an AR9 together from a mish-mash of different parts.
QC-10 lower with Colt/Uzi pattern mags. At the time the lowers that took Glock mags didn’t offer LRBHO, but QC-10 did with Colt mags. I believe that has since changed and many of the PCC lower manufacturers have figured out LRBHO with Glock mags. If you shoot Glocks it makes sense to use one that accepts Glock mags. Colt mags are ~$30 for a 32 rounder and Taylor Freelance makes a +10 extension for gun games. I’ve never needed more than 42 rnds for a stage.
Upper is a generic AR9 upper w/ the really big brass deflector. Not sure if that was needed or not, but back in 2017 it seemed like the thing to do.
Barrel: Originally I went with a 16” barrel from BA with A2 bird cage. That combo was quiet, too quiet for shot timers to pick up reliably unless the RO was really close. I bought a cheap AR comp with really big baffles and drilled it out for 9mm. That made the shot louder, but due to the 16” barrel my regular pistol ammo was chrono-ing 1,150-1,200 fps (~145 PF). So if I wanted to be closer to 130 PF I had to load some really powder-puff rounds, but that meant I had to keep two loads of 9mm, one for pistol/one for PCC. Doable but a PITA. Eventually I got a Taccom UWL barrel that is 5.5” long with a 16.1” aluminum shroud that is pinned to the barrel. It solved a number of things: it chrono’d low 130’s PF with my regular pistol ammo, it was loud enough for the shot timer on regular setting to pick up even from 10’ away, and it gave me a better balance rather than being muzzle heavy.
BCG and buffer: Originally started out with a CMMG BCG and basic carbine buffer. Experimented with different springs and weights in the buffer. After several thousand rounds I started to get some FTE’s. Ended up replacing replacing them with a BCG from JP along with JP’s Silent Captured Spring system and my ejection problem went away.
The rest of the PCC is basic AR stuff: grip, stock, fore-end… Trigger is a Hypertech bc that is what I have on my other ARs. Red dot is a C-More Railway and a Vortex Razor on a 45 deg mount.
It’s a fun division, I still shoot it periodically but with all the advances in AR-9 technology, specifically with what JP Enterprise is doing with their JP-5, my blow-back operated gun is probably a relic by now.
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The JP5 is likely to be a game changer, but at $3300 I'm not sure how many will show up at local matches. Shooting a JP GMR15 is what caused me to sell my Scorpion.
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I would highly recommend the Sig MPX. I used to own a Scorpion and it was fun, but there is no comparison at all with the MPX. AR manual of arms, too, which is part of the reason I made the switch.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/tqc3Zo.jpg)
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Can’t say enough about my Foxtrot Mike FM9 lower + 9mm upper
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I dig the Ruger PC9 PC Charger is also an option that takes Glock mags. I'm still working on getting it running with CZ-75 mags.
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I got my Scorpion a few years back directly through the CZ LE/MIL program. I paid right at $700 back then and I have been very happy with it. I have added a few HB Industries parts to make it more user friendly for me. I know the price has gone up these days. If I was to look for a PCC again, I would take a hard look at the MPX for sure.
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My PCC is an FN PS90 (technically a "bullpup") and works well with my FN Five-seveN (5.7x28mm).
Nice 50 round mags, ambidextrous and ejects down.
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Somebody needs to make a PCC in 7.5 FK Brno
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Do you own/shoot AR15 rifles/carbines?
If so, why not an AR15 style PCC?
Consistency is a good thing. Same manual of arms isn't bad if the weapons are good.
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Do you own/shoot AR15 rifles/carbines?
If so, why not an AR15 style PCC?
Consistency is a good thing. Same manual of arms isn't bad if the weapons are good.
I do, one of the reasons I mentioned foxtrot mike
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Oh you kids and your new fangled fancy schmansy black rifles. This Marlin Camp 9 dates from 1990, but I've only owned it for twenty years or so. At one time I had a S&W 59, so they could share magazines. Very accurate at 50 yds., and I can ring 6" steel at 100 all day long. I don't think it matters what you get - they're all light, quick and and a hoot to shoot.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/29/52/HNW11gFA_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/HNW11gFA)
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Oh you kids and your new fangled fancy schmansy black rifles. This Marlin Camp 9 dates from 1990, but I've only owned it for twenty years or so. At one time I had a S&W 59, so they could share magazines. Very accurate at 50 yds., and I can ring 6" steel at 100 all day long. I don't think it matters what you get - they're all light, quick and and a hoot to shoot.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/29/52/HNW11gFA_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/HNW11gFA)
Yeah, what he said, you young whipper snappers!!!
That’s a hell of a scope for a 9mm carbine…10x24?
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Somebody needs to make a PCC in 7.5 FK Brno
When the Field Pistol (7.5 FK) came out I recall that they (FKBRNO) were thinking of making the round available for a rifle/carbine.
The whole point of a PCC is to use the same ammo and be able to have large capacity magazines.
But PCCs have been around for a while...
Consider 7.62x25mm - for the CZ52 and a variety of submachine guns.
And today there are even 7.62x25mm ARs:
7.62x25 AR carbine - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfqYg3p2Zc)
In this video they talk about how cheap the old eastern bloc surplus ammo has been....5 cents/round!!
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Oh you kids and your new fangled fancy schmansy black rifles. This Marlin Camp 9 dates from 1990, but I've only owned it for twenty years or so. At one time I had a S&W 59, so they could share magazines. Very accurate at 50 yds., and I can ring 6" steel at 100 all day long. I don't think it matters what you get - they're all light, quick and and a hoot to shoot.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/29/52/HNW11gFA_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/HNW11gFA)
Yeah, what he said, you young whipper snappers!!!
That’s a hell of a scope for a 9mm carbine…10x24?
That is a Tasco 3-9 that was on the rifle when I bought it. A bit of overkill, lol. I swapped that out for a compact Vector 1-5 x 32 that is much more appropriate for the rifle. For an inexpensive scope it's performed surprisingly well.
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Oh you kids and your new fangled fancy schmansy black rifles. This Marlin Camp 9 dates from 1990, but I've only owned it for twenty years or so. At one time I had a S&W 59, so they could share magazines. Very accurate at 50 yds., and I can ring 6" steel at 100 all day long. I don't think it matters what you get - they're all light, quick and and a hoot to shoot.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/29/52/HNW11gFA_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/HNW11gFA)
Nice! At some point I wanted a Marlin Camp 9, but couldn’t find one.
Perhaps Ruger brings it back.
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Oh you kids and your new fangled fancy schmansy black rifles. This Marlin Camp 9 dates from 1990, but I've only owned it for twenty years or so. At one time I had a S&W 59, so they could share magazines. Very accurate at 50 yds., and I can ring 6" steel at 100 all day long. I don't think it matters what you get - they're all light, quick and and a hoot to shoot.
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/29/52/HNW11gFA_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/HNW11gFA)
Nice! At some point I wanted a Marlin Camp 9, but couldn’t find one.
Perhaps Ruger brings it back.
I don’t know, Ruger already makes several models of the “PC” carbine for those trapped in Libtardia, which takes Glock mags, so probably not. Maybe Ruger will make a “PC C” with a wood stock for die-hard Fudds. The jam-o-matic S&W Model 59 and mags thereof are long since out of favor.
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Somebody needs to make a PCC in 7.5 FK Brno
When the Field Pistol (7.5 FK) came out I recall that they (FKBRNO) were thinking of making the round available for a rifle/carbine.
The whole point of a PCC is to use the same ammo and be able to have large capacity magazines.
But PCCs have been around for a while...
Consider 7.62x25mm - for the CZ52 and a variety of submachine guns.
And today there are even 7.62x25mm ARs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfqYg3p2Zc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfqYg3p2Zc)
In this video they talk about how cheap the old eastern bloc surplus ammo has been....5 cents/round!!
Interesting concept, though I couldn’t get the video to play. Unfortunately PPU, S&B and (corrosive?) surplus FMJ ammo is now up to 50 cents/round. Don’t know of any HPs available, though 7.62x25 fmj is purported to penetrate body armor.
7.5 FK Brno and the re-emergent 10mm would seem to be a no-brainer as a more powerful PCC, especially since those two calibers and their mags are interchangeable with a barrel swap.
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A basic EVO 3 Scorpion pistol runs like a top out of the box, doesn’t initially break the bank and mags are uber cheap, plentiful and reliable.
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After my research and input from here and others I trust, I decided to get a Foxtrot Mike PCC. Should be here next week, then must wait for the state to declare I’m a good guy >:( before I can get it.
Only disappointing aspect is they don’t include magazines. Ordered those today and expect them early next week.
Now on the hunt for a red dot ;)
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After my research and input from here and others I trust, I decided to get a Foxtrot Mike PCC. Should be here next week, then must wait for the state to declare I’m a good guy >:( before I can get it.
Only disappointing aspect is they don’t include magazines. Ordered those today and expect them early next week.
Now on the hunt for a red dot ;)
[/quoteRef ]Foxtrot Mike PCC, I thought I read somewhere that this gun requires a 500 round break in. That is a big reason why I no longer look at this weapon. As if these guns aren't expensive enough, you have to fire 500 rounds of different bullet weights before its broken in? At todays cost for ammo, that is an additional cost I wasn't ready to accept. It is a nice looking and reasonably priced though.
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Rwek- will inform the team here once I get it out of waiting period of my break in experience if any.
Stand by
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After thinking about it, if I was to looking to get into a "PCC" again, I would really consider a 357MAG lever gun like the Henry Big Boy X. I would add a light and red dot optic and run it.
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After thinking about it, if I was to looking to get into a "PCC" again, I would really consider a 357MAG lever gun like the Henry Big Boy X. I would add a light and red dot optic and run it.
I'm with you. My Henry .357 mag all steel Big Boy has been great. And now I'm considering either an All Weather or an "X" model in 44 mag to set up with a RDS and a WML. It would be a great camp gun, home defense, and also just a lot of fun on the open range.
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After thinking about it, if I was to looking to get into a "PCC" again, I would really consider a 357MAG lever gun like the Henry Big Boy X. I would add a light and red dot optic and run it.
I'm with you. My Henry .357 mag all steel Big Boy has been great. And now I'm considering either an All Weather or an "X" model in 44 mag to set up with a RDS and a WML. It would be a great camp gun, home defense, and also just a lot of fun on the open range.
I didn't consider my Henry Big Boy's in .357 mag and .44 mag as "carbines" since they weren't semiautomatic like my FN PS90.
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I didn't consider my Henry Big Boy's in .357 mag and .44 mag as "carbines" since they weren't semiautomatic like my FN PS90.
They are definitely still considered 'carbines' in the shorter (16" +/-) barrel config. Lever guns chambered in pistol calibers really were the original "pistol caliber cabines."
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I dig the Ruger PC9 PC Charger is also an option that takes Glock mags. I'm still working on getting it running with CZ-75 mags.
Is there anything else you can share about the CZ-75 project? Are you modifying gun or magazines?
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I didn't consider my Henry Big Boy's in .357 mag and .44 mag as "carbines" since they weren't semiautomatic like my FN PS90.
They are definitely still considered 'carbines' in the shorter (16" +/-) barrel config. Lever guns chambered in pistol calibers really were the original "pistol caliber cabines."
Over the years I try to use terms in their correct definition, so I checked the definition of "carbine": a light automatic rifle
Historically, the term was applied to "a short rifle or musket used by cavalry."
So under the old meaning, even a muzzle loader would have been called a carbine.
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Why are we discussing 10lb lever action rifles when the OP asked for recommendations for a pcc to be used in competition?
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Over the years I try to use terms in their correct definition, so I checked the definition of "carbine": a light automatic rifle
Not sure where you checked that definition, but there most definitely were "lever action carbines" before there were "semi-auto carbines." That's a matter of historical record, not opinion.
Why are we discussing 10lb lever action rifles when the OP asked for recommendations for a pcc to be used in competition?
1) Not 10 lbs. The whole idea of a lightweight carbine is to keep it short, manueverable and light. My lever carbine weighs 6.5 lbs.
But let's not derail this any further - Earl is clearly perturbed. ;)
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The original topic is on a pistol caliber carbine options. I think the main factor is pistol caliber. I just threw in an option of running a lever gun in a pistol caliber. More options is always good. How about an M1 Carbine!?
https://youtu.be/pA4jfV5LkIQ
https://youtu.be/2y723KujuDA
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I'm not perturbed at all. I was just pointing out the use case indicated in the original post-
"Cross bolt safety is awkward to use in my local competitions."
If you want to debate the original definition of carbine, or even what defines a pistol caliber, have at it.
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As the OP, I appreciate the different viewpoints on what others view works for them. Interesting for sure.
In my case, as I stated earlier, was to get a PCC for my competition games. Certain attributes for the games are desirable- these I found in a AR style- FOR ME..
This is not to say that any of the options others mentioned aren’t ideal for their needs- probably is, but they aren’t for my needs.
Once I get the carbine and shoot it some, I’ll report back
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I dig the Ruger PC9 PC Charger is also an option that takes Glock mags. I'm still working on getting it running with CZ-75 mags.
Is there anything else you can share about the CZ-75 project? Are you modifying gun or magazines?
on the list to do... I have my pistols sorted out for now, so yeah, will be soon. thx for the reminder.
Basically the run down is this (from memory): Since I just run glock mags, I modded the Ruger magwell to just add a piece of thin felt on the inside of the magwell (for testing), The mag catch doesn't work with stock CZ mags because the latch hole is in a different location on the PCC. But... I hand cycled dummy rounds all 20 using the cz75 mags while holding into the magwell vertically.
Still some tuning and drilling out a mag catch hole is next. When I tried it before I didn't have a drill press, but now I do, so no excuses!!
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The mag catch doesn't work with stock CZ mags because the latch hole is in a different location on the PCC.
Still some tuning and drilling out a mag catch hole is next.
Thanks for the explanation. As it happens, I sell CZ-75 adapters for Ruger as a hobby business, but I'm a little unsatisfied about how complex my design is, so I'm on lookout for some friendly competition or possibly exchange of ideas. My customers would not stand drilling holes in their guns, so I use a little moving arm that transfers the force down to where CZ-75 magazine notch is. It is made from 16 gauge steel welding sheet.
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Was able to pick it up, install my Vortex sparc, do some laser zero before it went into the safe. So far looks and feels like a quality piece of kit.
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I had a Scorpion, it didn't like my IDPA loads, I bought a Ruger PC and it didn't like my defensive loads. I bought an mp5 clone... it's not a picky eater.
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I had a Scorpion, it didn't like my IDPA loads, I bought a Ruger PC and it didn't like my defensive loads. I bought an mp5 clone... it's not a picky eater.
Does your mp5 clone have last round bolt open feature? That’s a feature I sought when seeking a PCC.
I shot a full auto Mp 5 years ago when in the service- really enjoyed it. This was well before optics or rails were vouge.
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I've been eyeing the Fox Trot but I can't let myself to get into PCC. We still make fun of (tongue and cheek) PCC shooters even though that class is pretty much the biggest class in the sport now. One of my local club members just did purchase the Fox Trot 9 with the forward nonreciprocating charging handle and it is money. It seems like a good design that offers some tangible benefits for the competition shooter. I'm not sure how it runs yet but I'm sure it's easy to get sorted if needed.
Let us know how your Fox Trot runs, I may just have to join the movement. I'll say it is for my son who is just starting out in the sport, yeah that is a good excuse for sure! :D
Cheers,
Toby
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……..We still make fun of (tongue and cheek) I do too- call my buddy who shoots PCC a cheater, ……but if you can’t beat them, join them :)
Let us know how your Fox Trot runs, I may just have to join the movement. I'll say it is for my son who is just starting out in the sport, yeah that is a good excuse for sure! :D
Cheers,
Toby
Will do. Plan on running it some this weekend
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I'm still interested if the manual states that you need a 500 round break in for this. Looks like an interesting weapon but having to fire 500 rounds to break it in seems a little excessive.
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I'm still interested if the manual states that you need a 500 round break in for this. Looks like an interesting weapon but having to fire 500 rounds to break it in seems a little excessive.
I’ll shoot it for the first time this weekend after my IDPA match. Will let you know. Have 3 brands of mags, Magpul & Glock- both recommended, and KCI- not recommended. All fit, lock the bolt back, and drop freely, we’ll see after I shoot it some.
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Update.
Took it out for the first outing. The good news, it ate everything I shot regardless of mag (Glock OEM, Magpul and KCI the latter not approved). It was accurate, requiring only a minor adjustment to the red dot sight.
The bad news- the trigger would not reset reliably.
Have sent FM an email, and will check with my buddies what solutions may be available.
More to follow as I get this right.
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Follow up- Foxtrot Mike emailed me back today, offering to send a replacement FCG. I’ll withhold full opinion, but based on prompt reply and offer to send replacement parts- looks promising.
More to follow
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Over the years I try to use terms in their correct definition, so I checked the definition of "carbine": a light automatic rifle
Historically, the term was applied to "a short rifle or musket used by cavalry."
So under the old meaning, even a muzzle loader would have been called a carbine.
[/quote]
I love discussing military history. After looking at the current definitions of the word Carbine, I think the only thing we can agree on is the definition has evolved.
From my readings, the origin of the word was from the French and they armed their cavalry during the Napoleonic wars with short muskets that fired small or pistol caliber bullets (mind you, the Brown Bess was practically a .50 caliber rifle so YMMV).
So from what I could gather the traditional definition was a long arm using small caliber ammunition. The classic example would be the .30 M1 Carbine which was designed from the ground up to use a new .30 round. Hot by pistol standards but not compared to the .30-06 used in the Garand.
In the same war though the term was applied to shortened versions of a long-arm like the so-called Enfield Jungle Carbine (No 5 MkI), so that means it meant different things to different people.
Brittanica just defines it as a long arm that has been shortened from its original length (a definition that doesn't encompass the M1)
Wikipedia goes on to add a definition that make them either shortened versions of a long arm or rifles chambered for a less powerful cartridge (a definition that does and covers PCCs as well).
I guess its become a catch-all term for a long-arm (non SMG/PDW?) that's meant to fill a role subordinate to a Main Battle Rifle.
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FM was good to their word, I received the FCG late last week; installed it today. Will try to get to the range to test fire it this week. Will report back after I hit the range
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The replacement FCG worked, with no issues in the short range time I had today. The gun functioned flawlessly and was true to aim.
True test will be at a match I’ll run it in soon.
That said, am happy with it.
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A range update- I shot my FM PCC in todays IDPA match. Was fun. While I didn’t win my division, I came in 2nd (out of 4) and was most accurate overall.
The gun ate everything and put rounds where I put the red dot. Absolutely no function issues at all. Very pleased with its performance today.
In terms of my performance, I felt awkward due to lack of familiarity employing it in a match. That slowed me down.
Overall, am happy with the gun and the company’s service.