The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ SP-01 and variants => Topic started by: dabljues on January 30, 2023, 06:55:12 AM
-
Hey.
I've bought CZ TS2 (the base version, silver grips in Europe) a couple months ago. Great shooter, excellent trigger, best pistol in my safe by far.
However, I've had some issues with it, mainly two:
- trigger sometimes not resetting
- fixed that wth screwing in the overtravel screw
- failures to feed (like half an inch of gap to full lockup, I have to hit the slide from the back to chamber the round)
Now the second issue is far more annoying.
It's been like that for me even when I didn't change anything. So when the gun was not modified, it sometimes happened. I'd say like a couple of times per 100 rounds. I then bought an upgrade kit which included some springs, one of which was an 8lb recoil spring. After I put that in, each round failed to chamber. So I thought - yeah, it's probably the recoil spring. I asked CZ what the stock spring weights are and I got an answer:
Thank you for your message.
Out of the factory, this gun comes with a 13 lb recoil spring, main spring is then 16 lb.
So I bought a set of recoil springs ranging from 10lb to 14lb. Mostly tried 11, 12 and 13. And basically, none of them solved the issue. I mean after removing the 8lb spring and using those stronger ones, the failures to feed happen from time to time, not each round, but still.
What I also did was:
- I polished the slide rails
- I polished the the external hammer part
- I polished the the lip that the hammer rides on during the racking
- I cleaned the mags + I changed the spring in one of them
I tried to search for posts describing the same issue and people were also suggesting the recoil spring change, but I don't see that it did anything for me.
I have one other idea (besides thoroughly cleaning the extractor now, but I don't think that's the issue - it was squeky clean on a new gun and the issue was still here) - hammer spring. I know, I know, you select a hammer spring for reliable igniton, but bear with me. I obviously know that lighter recoil spring means that the slide is easier to rack. But during firing, or when racking with a hammer down - the hammer spring also acts as a counter force. For example, I am able to rack the slide with the hammer cocked, no problem. If the hammer is down, it's harder but still easy to do. Now, when checking the reset (so hammer down, trigger pressed), the slide is much much harder to rack. To the point when I actually get it rearward I can see that if I let the trigger go forward, then I still have like a couple of mms left to move the slide rearward.
So my idea is: during firing the hammer/hammer spring slows down the slide, so it doesn't go fully rearward therefore having less force to chamber the round. I have a couple of main spring for TS2 lying around + an extender firing pin to try, but I don't know if I'm wrong or not. Especially since sometimes the failure to feed happens when chambering the first round by me manually (by dropping the slide). But that's really rare. What do you think guys? What could be the issue?
P.S I'm shooting 9mm factory loads ranging from 115grain-140grain (but mostly 124grain), FMJ, usually S&B. And I always clean my gun thoroughly + it's always lubed.
P.S2 Do you also have this difficulty when trying to rack the slide with hammer down + trigger pressed on your TS2s/TSOs?
-
Look FIRST at the ammo !!
• If handloaded, then review the Stickie in the Handloading & Ammo sub-forum on Reloading for the CZ.
• If factory, then even some previously reputable brands have been having LOTS of trouble lately. Fiocchi and SIG are among those known to have physical sizing and chambering issues, but that is not a full list. Review the Stickie on buying factory ammo.
You run the VERY REAL risk of having an OOB accident if you fail to do this. This can and will most proabably end in both harm to the shooter and damage to the pistol.
-
I just left this message on the CGW forum...
Quote from: schutz85C on January 28, 2023, 09:51:07 PM
Could have even been random bum factory loads.
Exactly. What continues to be reported on a weekly basis on the Ammo & Handloading forum is very poorly made ammo. Most of this is cartridges and cases formed so poorly that they fail to physically fit the gun's chamber.
But it also applies equally to what cannot be seen... large variations in the amount of powder inside the cartridge and poorly made primers.
Ammo makers are not fools. If they see that they can sell twice (or six times) the amount of ammo this month simply by rushing ammo production, then they are going to do it.
-
Okay, I'm reading it right now.
I mean, you could be right, it could be the ammo. Example from last week - most of the time S&B ammo was chambering just fine, but the limit.cz ammo had failures to feed even when chambering the first round by me, by letting the slide go. Granted, it also happened to S&B ammo in the past. So it could be about the shape and/or its inconsistencies.
However, in here https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049 (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049), I can see that S&B 124gr (which I mostly shoot) should be good. Hmm.
Edit:
But then, let's say it's the ammo, if I don't really have that much ammo available to check out (I'm not really ready to reload yet to be honest), is there a way for making it work by changing something out in the gun itself?
-
However, in here https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049 (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114254.msg889049#msg889049), I can see that S&B 124gr (which I mostly shoot) should be good. Hmm
And those are the operative words... SHOULDS BE.
Look, 1) we have a huge European war going on, and 2) Americans are buying ammo non-stop like there's a Democrat in the White House or something. We're emerging from COVID and factories have all-new employees. Not only are the ammo factories running non-stop 24/7, they are doing it with new employees who are under-trained in QC techniques.
You MUST take your barrel with you when you go ammo shopping !! Or, you must "Plunk & Spin" test 7 or 8 rounds from every pack of 50 rounds.
The reported S&B ammo was good. When things calm down, it will most proabably be good again.
-
Yep, I'm definitely gonna try "Plunk & Spin", seems like a good and easy thing to do.
I kinda hope it's the ammo, because from what I've seen there's not much else for me to try with the gun itself (aside from my definitely-not-stupid idea of changing out the hammer spring).
Anyway, thanks for your help, I definitely have some reading to do on this forum!
-
Dab,
I'm going to assume your ammo is good but you should inspect it as Wobbly has shared.
First things I'd look at are:
1. Magazine tuning. Have you pulled the magazines apart and cleaned/waxed them inside and out? Make sure the feed lips don't have any burrs and are straight/parallel. Take calipers and verify the magazine bodies are the same dimension top to bottom. One way to tell if they need to be tuned is if when fully loaded they hang up upon insertion into the frame. There will be binding on the grip panels (most likely). You need to make sure the follower is applying enough upward pressure on the cartridge to ensure proper feeding. Are there gaps between the top cartridge and the cartridge below when fully loaded? If yes to any of these questions, then you need to tune the magazine body a little. This mainly affects nose dive failures on the feedramp.
2. Remove, clean, and inspect the extractor. Sometimes buildup could prevent the cartridge from sliding up the breach face and under the extractor and thus hanging up the feeding. Make sure there isn't any damage/burrs that would bind up feeding under the extractor hook. Clean thoroughly and put a drop of oil on the extractor spring, leave the rest dry.
3. Polish the feedramp and make sure there aren't any burrs. I've found that somehow I damaged the edge of my feedramp on my TSO. It took stoning and polishing to remove.
4. Clean and inspect the gun. Are you properly lubricating the slide rails? CZ's like to run wet.
Cheers,
Toby
-
Hey, thanks for the input!
1. I disassembled all the mags and cleaned them + changed the spring in one of them to check if it's maybe a bad spring - that didn't work
2. This is what I was missing earlier. I noticed that when cleaning my handguns (I'm a gun owner since only 6 months, don't get me started on gun laws in Europe :D), I forget the extractor. And you're right, there was a lot of gunk behind it. I only assumed that since I had this gun new and FTFs still happened, then maybe it isn't it. However, maybe back then it was something else (I didn't have stuff polished + my cleaning/lubing skills were far worse). I cleaned it thoroughly, checked on some snap caps and it felt good, I'm taking the gun out to the range on Wednesday to verify that it was the culprit.
3. Already done. I used multiple grits, didn't go for the looks but for the feel and it feels really smooth.
4. Also done. I'm a gun cleaning maniac - I always spend too much time and I'd even say I lube too much, though I'm starting to get a hang of it. As for this particular model - 3 drops on slide rails (each side), something on the barrel (and smear it all over it), a light coat on the "hammer bearing" (I don't know the exact name, I mean the "rail" that pushes the hammer back when the slide is racked), a drop on the trigger spring and the sear spring. But like a month ago I was doing pretty much the same but using much more oil (especially on the rails)
To be honest, I still can't shake this feeling about the gun having an issue. Like I explained in the original post, I don't know if thats normal, but it's much more difficult to rack the slide when pressing the trigger than when the hammer is down (I mean not cocked/resting on the slide). And there's one more thing. I don't own any other "race guns" (I have an M17, a P-07 among other things), but the TS2 sometimes feels strange when shooting. At the beginning I was thinking that maybe my grip was the problem, but I don't know. Let me explain: when firing I sometimes feel like the slide is not going forward as it supposed to. Like in other guns (or similar CZs that I see on the internet), the forward movement is kinda snappy, quick. Here I feel like I counteract the recoil impulse, the muzzle starts to go down (to the position from before the firing), but the slide is "lagging behind it". Like it feels that I'm almost ready to shoot again, I'll soon see the sights align, but the gun is still not closed, I'm still waiting for the slide. It's a tiny tiny tiny time frame, but still. And that's what made me think (and still kinda does) that maybe there's something wrong with the springs etc. (not ammo)
-
Without the barrel and recoil spring installed does the slide travel smoothly through the whole travel on the frame? How about with the barrel but no recoil spring? (hammer cocked on both)
Does the barrel drop into the slide without issue? There is no binding when sliding up into the locked position? This is the only thing I can think of that would slow the return to battery (lockup). If the barrel peanut isn't cut properly it could cause issues.
It sounds more and more like the dirty extractor may be the culprit assuming all the above check out.
Is it difficult to cock the hammer while holding the trigger vs not holding the trigger? If the hammer is noticeably difficult to cock (than say your P07) you could have a mainspring strut that has some burrs on it. There shouldn't be any difference between holding the trigger vs not. This wouldn't explain the slow return to battery (lockup).
Obviously perform all these checks with no ammo anywhere nearby. Verify the gun is clear!
Cheers,
Toby
-
I feel like it travels smoothly no matter what. When I cleaned the gun yesterday, I checked the function - racked the slide multiple times etc. It's buttery smooth. I even polished some rough spots on the frame rails.
The barrel to slide fit is tight, but I assume that's the whole point, that's what we love about CZs :)
Is it difficult to cock the hammer while holding the trigger vs not holding the trigger? If the hammer is noticeably difficult to cock (than say your P07) you could have a mainspring strut that has some burrs on it. There shouldn't be any difference between holding the trigger vs not. This wouldn't explain the slow return to battery (lockup).
I meant the racking the slide, not cocking the hammer (I guess the two are connected when doing this with slide :D). 3 scenarios here:
- racking the slide when the hammer is cocked - easy
- racking the slide when the hammer is not cocked - more difficult (because I have to overcome the hammer spring), but still nothing out of the ordinary
- racking the slide when the hammer is not cocked + I press the trigger - then I have to use more force than in scenario two (only noticeable when going slowly)
The stuff I was talking about is the last scenario. In this scenario, even after I overcome the hammer and the slide is back, I still can pull it a little further by releasing the trigger (letting it go forward) - like it releases the tension (I can still do that with trigger pressed, but with more force). I mean I get it, trigger affects the hammer, but for example when I first got this gun I wanted to test its reset - so I pull the trigger on the cocked hammer -> hammer falls -> I keep the trigger pressed -> I try to rack the slide and let the gun cycle so I can see the reset. And at first it was so stiff I thought maybe this gun works like this - I mean I can't do that on that gun. Or maybe all SAO guns (don't have any other) do. But seeing as guys do this on YT (on TS2) I figured that this is not the case, so I just used more force. And it worked. But I was just surprised that it required more force than the scenarion no. 2 (when pulling slowly, when racking quickly, the difference it unnoticeable).
And in my head I thought to myself - hey, if I encounter this resistance here, then maybe when I fire the gun (keeping the trigger pressed until the gun fully cycles), maybe that's what's stopping the slide's move rearward/forward (slowing it down).
This "difference of force needed" between scenarios 2 and 3 is not really noticeable when racking the slide fast. It's noticeable when I try to do it slowly - by just pulling. If the hammer is cocked, I feel the resistance of the hammer to the slide (like the pull/rack rearward has two stages - before encountering the hammer and after it slides over it). But I guess that's normal.
And as for the slide going forward - there's nothing stopping it. Like it slides really smoothly, even if I ride it with my palm. The only "bump" is when it goes over the hammer. But the lockup has no hangup at all. Not like in my other pistols (looking at you, Sig Sauer), when if I ride the slide forward, it makes the the lockup really clunky.
And I will definitely test the gun now that I thoroughly cleaned the extractor, you're right.
-
I don't know why it would be different between pressing the trigger and not with respect to cocking the hammer. The reason I wanted you to manually cock the hammer vs rack the slide is to isolate the action and eliminate any other variables.
If you could share some photos of the action we may be able to identify anything that looks odd/wrong? A video with the slide off cocking the hammer may help as well.
Otherwise, this may need to go back to CZ for inspection? There shouldn't be any difference racking the slide with the trigger pulled or not.
How many rounds have you fired?
Cheers,
Toby
-
If you could share some photos of the action we may be able to identify anything that looks odd/wrong? A video with the slide off cocking the hammer may help as well.
Great idea! Here you go: https://imgur.com/a/qAudwD2 (https://imgur.com/a/qAudwD2). I uploaded all to imgur, so: a) I wouldn't clutter this thread with big pictures and b) I wouldn't have to upload a video to YT or something separately.
I don't know if I photographed everything you'd need, I only field-stripped the pistol. Sorry for the quality of the photos too, I guess, I'm so bad at this. If you need something else, I'll provide.
The video is last. I don't know if people can see this, but yeah, hammer cocked - easy. Hammer not cocked - not so easy. Hammer cocked + trigger pressed - even harder. I do know that the uncocked hammer will have resistance, but I don't know if the hammer that is lying down (slide rides over it) should show much resistance. And that is the case when I keep the trigger pressed, I think.
Otherwise, this may need to go back to CZ for inspection? There shouldn't be any difference racking the slide with the trigger pulled or not.
Unfortunately, it is not so simple for us here in the god-forsaken land of Europe. It's possible, but people tend to avoid that as much as possible.
How many rounds have you fired?
I guess something north of 1000 at this point. Cleaned and lubed pretty much after each range trip (sometimes two in a row without cleaning)
-
Remote troubleshooting is difficult. It appears to be look and operate normally. I'm guessing you are feeling differences because your grip is different depending on whether you are pulling the trigger or not.
If you manually cock the hammer without the slide on, does it feel different with or without the trigger pulled?
Cheers,
Toby
-
If you manually cock the hammer without the slide on, does it feel different with or without the trigger pulled?
I tried it both with and without the slide on. I don't really feel the difference. Aside from the fact that when I pull the hammer without pressing the trigger, there are "phases" - I feel going through the "half cock" and then through the "full cock" (there's a tiny little bit "overtravel" there). But as for the strength required - I don't think so (I tried with multiple fingers to eliminate the grip as a variable). I mean maaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybeeee a tiny little hair difference, but it may as well be psychological (so none at all) - nothing like "oh wow, now I need to gather all my strength to do it".
-
Yeah, I'm guessing it is operating normally.
Let us know how the next range visit goes. Hopefully it is not slow to return to battery anymore.
Cheers,
Toby
-
Thank you so much for spending so much time here with me! I really appreciate it.
Yeah, hopefully there'll be free slots tomorrow, so I'll be able to spend some time on the range. I'm more optimistic now about the extractor hypothesis, because by playing with the gun I realized that the "sloppiness" of the slide kinda occurs only on the range, where there are bullets involved. Without them, the gun is so smooth and snappy at the same time. No dragging or strange behavior whatsoever.
I'll come back here and give my feedback, maybe it'll help other people :)
-
Okay, it took me some time, but I'm coming with an update :)
So yesterday I went to the range. I shot 35 rounds of S&B 124grain and whoops - failure to feed. It could be random, but I started thinking.
Let me start with the fact (I mentioned it in the original post), that I have some things changed in the gun:
* trigger spring
* sear spring
* firing pin spring
* recoil spring and the guide rod
I forgot the guide rod part. So I bought this kit: https://b2b.eemann.tech/et-cz-75-ts/5035-eemann-techupgrade-kit-for-cz-75-ts.html (https://b2b.eemann.tech/et-cz-75-ts/5035-eemann-techupgrade-kit-for-cz-75-ts.html). I didn't use all the parts (e.g. I didn't change the trigger). It comes witht this 9lbs recoil spring and a guide rod - that's what I used back when I was having FTFs every round. And, as I mentioned earlier, I took out the recoil spring and put their other ones - like this one: https://b2b.eemann.tech/eemann-tech/1444-2844-eemann-tech-competition-recoil-spring-for-cz.html#/58-spring_weight-13_lbs (https://b2b.eemann.tech/eemann-tech/1444-2844-eemann-tech-competition-recoil-spring-for-cz.html#/58-spring_weight-13_lbs). But this was like 2 months ago. And before you ask: I don't really have access to CGW parts where I live in (pain).
So yesterday I took the factory guide rod + recoil spring (and a buffer) with me. Just to see if maybe the recoil spring is the culprit (I didn't think much about the guide rod). After the aforementioned failure to feed happened, I took out the short guide rod + the 13lbs recoil spring from Eemann Tech from the gun and put the original ones (factory full length guide rod and factory recoil spring that came on it). And the FTFs stopped. I shot like over 150 rounds in that configuration with no issues (I even changed the ammo that was even more problematic with the previous setup - limit.cz).
And I started wondering - is it the full length guide rod or the spring? Or the fact that the springs are different. Let me show you how everything looks like:
Factory guide rod (full length)
(https://i.imgur.com/2rFd1lYh.jpg)
Factory recoil spring:
(https://i.imgur.com/hqwQFpyh.jpg)
Factory guide rod + factory recoil spring: (the springs hangs onto the rod, doesn't fall)
(https://i.imgur.com/xKkE3R4l.jpg)
Eemann Tech steel guide rod:
(https://i.imgur.com/tPoFv8Gh.jpg)
Eemann Tech buffer: (notice the small flap)
(https://i.imgur.com/GKjcOlDh.jpg)
Eemann Tech guide rod + Eemann Tech competition recoil spring (13lbs)
(https://i.imgur.com/iK5KPzSh.jpg)
Eemann Tech guide rod + Eemann Tech competition recoil spring (13lbs) again (there's nothing holding the spring to the rod)
(https://i.imgur.com/TrI22KTh.jpg)
Guide rod + springs compared (top - factory, bottom - eemann tech):
(https://i.imgur.com/6N3cIZch.jpg)
Recoil springs compared:
(https://i.imgur.com/zNQxlLAh.jpg)
Okay, that's a lot of images, I'm sorry, I just wanted to show it all. So the most interesting thing, I guess, it the comparison betwen guide rods and springs itself. Obviously the factory guide rod is full length and the one I have is short. The big difference between the factory recoil spring and the Eemann Tech ones is the fact that the factory one kinda comes together just a tiny bit on one end which makes it harder to put on the guide rod (at the end) - you have to force it (or if you're taking it down, you have to pull, it won't fall off). None of the other springs have it.
So the page for the white recoil spring (https://b2b.eemann.tech/eemann-tech/1444-2844-eemann-tech-competition-recoil-spring-for-cz.html#/58-spring_weight-13_lbs) (which I have been using till yesterday) says:
The Eemann Tech competition recoil spring has been specially designed for:
CZ 75 B, CZ 85 B, CZ 75 SP-01/Tactical/Shadow/Shadow2/Tactical Sports/Tactical Sports2
Also this spring fits all CZ 75 pistols with long Recoil Spring Guide rods.
In my mind, this doesn't mean that they actually require having a long guide rod in TS2 to make this spring work. Especially since they provide it in a kit for Tactical Sports. Here (https://youtu.be/B9E2QTBOhUo?t=87) you can even see the tutorial of the guys from Eemann Tech installing a buffer for TS and they have the short guide rod there.
Okay, now I've shown everything, I want to ask you a question :D Well, what should I do? I know I can use the factory guide rod + spring but if I ever want to change something (like the spring, for example), then I have no options, but just buying straight from CZ (to get that "bottlenecked" type). Is there something I am doing wrong with those 3rd party parts? Because it seems it should be working, but it's not. Maybe I should buy the full length guide rod from Eemann Tech and try their springs on it?
BTW - I tried putting the Eemann Tech spring (the white one) on the factory guide rod - I had a FTF each round. A different one actually - usually I can see the round by looking at the top of the gun (like half an inch). Here, the slide was almost closed - kinda like OOB, but I'm afraid I could actually fire it (didn't test it obviously, unloaded immediately).
In the end, I don't know. Is it the length of the guide rod? The length of the spring? Or the fact that the factory spring latches itself onto the factory guide rod? Or maybe a mixture of some of those?
I know this is a very long post, again, I'm sorry. I'd really appreciate some insight, because I'm a babe in the woods here :D
-
What are you trying to achieve with using a non-factory recoil spring and guide rod? If the factory stuff works well and the other doesn't...
I noticed you did mention a concern over a single source. I'd just suggest buying some extra springs when they're in stock, maybe an extra guide rod. The odds of breaking two guide rods are pretty slim. And a few extra springs (that at least in the U.S. are pretty cheap) should have you covered for many years, unless you are a very high volume shooter.
-
What are you trying to achieve with using a non-factory recoil spring and guide rod? If the factory stuff works well and the other doesn't...
That's a fair question. Well, I'm trying to experiment with stuff. I mean, at least for now, I don't even do practical shooting so split times, speed - they don't matter to me. I wanted to see just how changing some stuff may change the overall feeling of the gun. For example, as for the recoil spring, the easier gun racking (so trying out the lower power recoil spring) would be a plus. Since my factory one (at least according to CZ) is 13 lbs and this is the lowest they offer, I had to buy from 3rd party. Plus, shops in my country have plenty of springs from like Eemann Tech, the original CZ ones are really scarce. I know it's doable (I can even order from Czech Republic, my country literally borders it), but I don't know, just wanted to try stuff out.
Additionally, it'd be good to figure those things out, since even if I don't have to do this, other people may and then those questions may arise again. Like the discussion I have with my inner self - long guide rod vs short guide rod, spring that latches itself onto the rod vs the one that doesn't. Lengths, etc. And it's sometimes difficult to find articles/vidoes about it, since most of the things are about the Shadow 2. And in this example, well, maybe they do the springs for the Shadow 2 which are just too short for the TS2 (although in this specific case they say it's okay)
-
@dabljues
my fellow european, maybe it would be smart to put all stock parts and spings back in place and then try how it works?
If your pistol works properly in stock configuration and factory ammo, then use aftermarket parts and springs one by one to find out which one might cause trouble.
-
It's apparent that the Eemann spring is failing to cycle the slide properly. I'm not sure I would ever use a short guide rod unless the gun was designed to use it.
Recoil springs should be selected:
1. to ensure the gun cycles
2. enable fast sight realignment
3. proper case ejection distance
It appears your not even getting past the primary need of a recoil spring with the Eemann tech spring/guide rod.
How does the gun feel and shoot with the stock spring? Do the cases land 6-8 ft from the shooting position? If yes to both of these, then why change?
I use Wolff springs (they do ship internationally). You can get OEM/aftermarket springs at various vendors abroad (Cesar shop, cz-parts, eric grauffel, etc...). Apparently the stock recoil spring weight is 14lbs for 9mm CZ pistols.
Cheers,
Toby
-
@timmy75
my fellow european, maybe it would be smart to put all stock parts and spings back in place and then try how it works?
If your pistol works properly in stock configuration and factory ammo, then use aftermarket parts and springs one by one to find out which one might cause trouble.
That's what I did and it works (I don't know if 150+ rounds is enough of a sample size). And I tried just having one variable - the spring (I put the Eemann Tech spring on the original guide rod), the gun failed to cycle each time. As for other parts I changed, they don't matter here (or at least I see no reason why they would've - trigger, sear and firing pin springs), so the only variable is the guide rod + the spring. I also tried multiple springs on the short guide rod (9lbs - FTF each time, 11-13 pretty similar results). I don't know man. I guess I can stick to the factory parts, though I'd probably cut myself if this (the changing out of the parts) turned out not to be the root cause :D
@tdogg
How does the gun feel and shoot with the stock spring? Do the cases land 6-8 ft from the shooting position? If yes to both of these, then why change?
Unfortunately, I can't test it. I only shoot on an indoor range (I'm in a club, European laws strike again), outdoor ranges are available, but I'd have to arrange it, it's not so easy for me, at least for now.
As for how the gun feels - hard to say. When I was shooting yesterday, it doesn't feel particularly snappy, the muzzle doesn't dip. I am able to control the recoil (much better than in my other guns - again, looking at you, high bore axis, striker-fired M17 ;)). But I don't know exactly, since I don't know what "fast sight realignment" should be. Am I there yet and therefore should I help myself with selecting a proper/better recoil spring, or not - can't really say.
Apparently the stock recoil spring weight is 14lbs for 9mm CZ pistols.
I asked CZ about this a while ago and here's what they said:
Your question:
Hi! I wanted to buy some backup springs for my CZ TS2 pistol (base model), but in order to get the right ones, I need to know the factory weights. The two springs I am interested in are: recoil and hammer (main) spring. On the internet, there are many offerings of those springs, with many weights (like 10lbs, 12lbs, 16lbs etc.). So what I wanted to ask you: what is the weight of the factory recoil spring in CZ TS2 and what is the weight of the factory hammer spring in CZ TS2? (I guess in lbs or kilograms)
Thanks in advance!
------------------------------
Thank you for your message.
Out of the factory, this gun comes with a 13 lb recoil spring, main spring is then 16 lb.
Hope it helps.
So, they say it's 13 (that's why I use the white Eemann Tech one, which is also 13lbs).
Well, I don't know. I wouldn't change anything in my carry gun (ironically, I can carry a loaded gun with a round in the chamber in my country), obviously, but here I just wanted to try stuff out. Maybe dampen out the recoil, see how the gun would feel during firing. All you guys are right - I don't have to do this. I was just surprised that many people do and they don't seem to have those issues (CZs seem to be known for their reliability, even the race guns), while I do. The thing that's bugging me is the fact that I remember the FTFs happening before I changed stuff in the gun. Now this may have been due to the fact that the gun had to be broken in or maybe I polished some parts since then and now, with the factory parts, it would work (like it worked yesterday), but I'm not sure
-
That's what I did and it works (I don't know if 150+ rounds is enough of a sample size). And I tried just having one variable - the spring (I put the Eemann Tech spring on the original guide rod), the gun failed to cycle each time. As for other parts I changed, they don't matter here (or at least I see no reason why they would've - trigger, sear and firing pin springs), so the only variable is the guide rod + the spring. I also tried multiple springs on the short guide rod (9lbs - FTF each time, 11-13 pretty similar results). I don't know man. I guess I can stick to the factory parts, though I'd probably cut myself if this (the changing out of the parts) turned out not to be the root cause :D
I don't know why are you trying to use short guide rod and 8lb spring? Any benefits from that? Factory spring is 13lb with full lenght guide rod. If you are shooting factory ammo (145 PF) just leave it as it is. If you are tuning your pistol for minor (~130 PF) load, just buy factory CZUB 11lb recoil spring as intended.
-
I don't know why are you trying to use short guide rod and 8lb spring? Any benefits from that? Factory spring is 13lb with full lenght guide rod
When I was putting this stuff in my gun, I wasn't that experienced. Figured there may be a reason why are they giving me the short guide rod. Even CZ sells it (https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/recoil-spring-guide-rod-cz-97.html) (it's a plastic one, but the one I have is steel). EG sells it as well. As for the benefits - none so far (I am using the 13lbs non-factory one from Eemann Tech). Aside from the topic of this thread FTFs :(
As for 11lbs spring (or a lower power than 13) - CZ sells only https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/vratna-pruzina-13lbs-sp-01-ts.html (http://13lbs) and 16lbs (https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/recoil-spring-cz-97-97b-97bd-16-lb.html)
-
https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-shadow-1/pruzina-vratna-11lbs-sp-01.html
https://www.cz-spare.parts/recoil-spring-11-lbs-cz-75-sp-01
This one will fit.
All "orange" models have 3 recoil springs in box: 11, 13 and 16
IMHO there is no reason to go lower, 11 works.
-
https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-shadow-1/pruzina-vratna-11lbs-sp-01.html
https://www.cz-spare.parts/recoil-spring-11-lbs-cz-75-sp-01
This one will fit.
All "orange" models have 3 recoil springs in box: 11, 13 and 16
I didn't find the 11lbs one on the CZ website because they don't list it as a part under "CZ 75 TS/TS2..." category. That makes me wonder if it won't be like, I don't know, too short? (SP-01 and Shadow 2 are shorter than the TS/TS2). However, the 13lbs one (https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/vratna-pruzina-13lbs-sp-01-ts.html) is shown as the one for both SP-01 and TS, so who knows.
For example on this picture:
(https://i.imgur.com/zNQxlLAh.jpg)
The factory spring is the same length as the Eemann Tech 14lbs one (it's supposedly designated for "CZ 75", the compatibility list includes TS2). The spring that I use is 13lbs, but it's noticeably shorter - it's their "competition line" (this one is marketed as one for "CZ 75/CZ Shadow 2". I'm wondering if the spring that's designated (on CZ site) for SP-01 won't be shorter as well (but maybe it's the same one, since I know there are 3 springs in the box for TSO, they may just not include the 11 as the one for TS, although it "fits".
I'm kinda curious if just buying their regular 11 or 13lbs (from Eemann Tech) spring (or trying the 14lbs one I have) would bring me back into the safe territory. Like - no malfunctions, but still having a better access to the parts (and better range of power selection than the springs from the official CZ shop). Or I can just bite the the bullet, pay a little more (both in money and time) and get this stuff from CZ, I don't know :D
-
I ended up buying the regular springs from Eemann Tech (not those "competition" ones, cuz they seem shorter) that seem to resemble the original CZ springs (the only difference is that they don't seem to bottleneck at one end - latching themselves onto the guide rod). I'm gonna test them with the factory guide rod this week.
If that doesn't work, I'm biting the bullet and ordering 11, 13 and 16lbs springs from CZ (gonna use that opportunity to finally order a diopter and closed front sight for my CZ 457).
-
An update.
Well, yesterday I tried the springs I ordered. And again, I had FTFs with for example the 11lbs one. I switched to a 13lbs one and shot like 200 rounds no problem. So the conclusion would be for me - anything less than 13lbs is not right here for me. So the factory 13lbs and the 13lbs one from Eemann Tech work flawlessly. I can feel it especially when slingshotting - with the 11lbs spring I can feel a lil' hangup when the round goes into the chamber. With 13lbs spring it's snappy and works every time.
I will order an 11lbs spring from CZ to check it out as well, but for now I know one thing - just get 13lbs springs if those that I have get worn out.
It's still kinda strange for me since I see many posts and some videos on YT of people running 11, even 10lbs springs in TS2 without an issue. But maybe the factory CZ one will work.
Thank of all you guys for your help and patience! Maybe this post will be of help to some other people as well.
-
Don't forget to chamber / gauge test your ammo as well. Lately, many EU high brand names giving us their garbage to shoot with. Good luck.
-
Don't forget to chamber / gauge test your ammo as well. Lately, many EU high brand names giving us their garbage to shoot with. Good luck.
I don't think ammo is the problem here. I mean I know it could be, but then my buddies are shooting their SP-01 Shadows and Shadow 2s no problem with the same ammo I'm using.
I've got an update. Today, 3 hours on the range. Most of that time with the TS2, again. So:
* still, 13lbs recoil spring works each time
* 11lbs recoil spring (this time, factory, from CZ) - has FTFs
I don't know, I was so silly not to notice one simple fact - 95% of those FTFs happen on the last round from the mag. And just to be clear - it even happens when I lock the slide back and release it with my hand (and in this case it's sometimes not even a FTF - sometimes the slide just like catches onto the round, not actually moving it forward, or just barely). I've done it many times today. It happens much less when I do it by pushing the slide lock. When I noticed it today - I started checking it out. Loading like 5 rounds into the mag (I do bullseye shooting, so I don't normally load a full mag anyway). Pew, pew, pew, pew - and then a FTF. Checked it many times. On some occasions the round got chambered, but still. Very very often, on the last round, a FTF happened.
So my next guess is - magazines. But then - I've got 3 mags in the TS2 box. And what - each of them would be "bad"? It's not a problem for me to go for a new followers, new springs, hell even new mags. But before I spend another buttload of money on this gun, I wanted to ask you guys. I mean the thing clearly shouts "mag issues". But is that possible?
One more thing about the mags:
This is the mag presented as a mag for CZ TS on CZ website, and that's what I had in my case: (link (https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/zasobnik-ts.html))
(https://eshop.czub.cz/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/25b8ab73d32aaa525255cbfdfac38054/0/4/0472-3710-0706nd.png)
However, they mention one other mag, for TS2: (link (https://eshop.czub.cz/en/pistole/serie-cz-75-ts/cz-ts2-magazine-20rnd.html))
(https://eshop.czub.cz/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/25b8ab73d32aaa525255cbfdfac38054/0/4/0472-3710-0712nd.png)
I've seen people get the first mag in their base CZ TS2 unboxing videos (CZ USA - blue, CZ - silver). But on Orange and Racing Green, I saw the mags from the 2nd image (with different colors, obviously). Now I think that this may just be cosmetical, but could it be something there?
The one other idea that I have is - extractor. But not the dirty extractor (I clean it everytime now), but maybe a spring? I don't know. Should I replace it (as I'm seeing now, the extractor pin will be a pain in the ass - to get it out)? And if so, should I definitely go for a stronger one maybe? Or maybe it could be the extractor itself? I don't know, maybe it's bent.
Among that I will definitely polish the feed ramp, do a deep cleaning on the breech face.
But what do you guys think now? Mags? Extractor? Or maybe both?
P.S - I know I have a working gun when I use a 13lbs spring. And that's fine. After I done my testing today, I switched to the 13lbs spring to do some uninterrupted shooting. But I feel like the recoil spring isn't the problem at all. The heaver spring just pushes the round into the chamber by brute force, it has nothing to do with the gun cycling, loads - because, as I explained, the FTFs can happen when chambering a round from a locked back slide (they don't with the 13lbs spring). And as of today I got convinced that heavier rounds having less powder have much lower kick and the gun is so much pleasant to shoot (compared a full box of 147gr vs 124gr today), so the lighter recoil spring would be sanctioned here. Additionally, I'm thinking of reloading myself (finally)
-
I'm having a similar problem with my new 75B (have my own thread.) I haven't changed any springs, and it was good for the first ~300 rounds.
The only ammo I've run is Fed/AE 124 FMJ. It passes the plunk/spin test even after hanging during cycling.
You received a lot of great suggestions here, and I'm going to refer back to them as I trouble shoot mine.
Specifically:
Wax the magazine; clean the extractor; check (maybe tune) the magazines; take it to the range and try again.
-
Oh, a fellow soul having the same issues! :)
Well, today I ordered a new mag, new follower and a spring (to replace in the factory mag). I cleaned them before, but I'll try again. I also ordered an extractor pin (have the spare spring already) because I'm getting a feeling that after getting it out, I won't be able to put it back in (it's staked). Gonna try both mag and the extractor "route". Unfortunately, this'll be just a guesswork for the time being, since I'm only able to visit the range once in a week, on Wednesday. But I'm gonna make sure to try everything out. I also already polished the feed ramp, but since the hangup sometimes happens without the round even getting out of the magazine, this is probably not it (but it's a nice addition to have)
-
I have 2 factory and 2 aftermarket Mec-Gar magazines.
I have experienced feed issues with all 4, but it seems much more prevalent with the factory units. I've cleaned and lubed all 4, but received advice to disassemble, clean, strip, wax and avoid the lube. I also need to number them to ascertain if the problems are consistently related to specific ones.
The part that gets me is it ran great for 100 rounds, I made a couple minor modifications (polished feed ramp and slide, changed grips, changed front sight.) It ran great for 200 more rounds. I made no additional changes! And now it hangs ~ 25% of the time.
I hope it something like gunk behind the extractor - I haven't removed or cleaned in there yet. Am a little concerned about losing the spring, or not being able to reinstall it. Will try to blast and scrub it out without completely removing it first.
Thanks for letting me piggyback of your great advice!
-
This most likely is a magazine spring tension or a magazine tuning issue. It sounds like there isn't enough tension in the magazine to force the nose of the last bullet upward for proper feeding.
The quick and easy test for this is to disassemble the magazine and stretch the spring to make it longer to apply more preload when compressed. This will not last but can help you troubleshoot. Also bend the last coil holding the magazine follower upward so it applies more pressure on the bullet of the cartridge (tilts bullet upward in the magazine). Not too much but make it so the angle matches or is slightly more than the feed lips on the magazine. You can hold the spring next to or on top of the magazine body to compare. This is more impactful when using a Gram's or CZ Custom follower vs OEM as the OEM follower will not tilt (as much) due to the follower legs stabilizing it.
Make sure there are no burr's on the magazine feel lips. They should be smooth on the underside to provide snag free bullet release. The feed lips on the magazine should be parallel and both at the same angle.
When fully loaded is there upward tension on the top cartridge bullet nose in the magazine (how about when loaded with only one cartridge)? Are the cartridges stacked /nested all touching or is there gaps in the top two or three? If not then you may benefit from magazine body tuning. It is complicated to explain but is relatively easy to perform.
Cheers,
Toby
-
Just gonna say it, thanks tdogg for still being here! :)
When fully loaded is there upward tension on the top cartridge bullet nose in the magazine (how about when loaded with only one cartridge)?
Okay, so I made 4 photos:
Almost fully loaded mag (19/20 - couldn't get the last one in, even with Uplula speedloader, though I didn't want to use excesive force):
(https://i.imgur.com/jDMSKZVl.jpg)
One round (2nd mag):
(https://i.imgur.com/yH7KrsSl.jpg)
One roung (3rd mag):
(https://i.imgur.com/MQhpr73l.jpg)
I pretty much never load a full mag, very very rarely load like 10 rounds, it's mostly 2-3-5. Many times I heard that the mag issues usually happen on the last round or on the fully loaded mag. So maybe I'm experiencing FTFs with 1 round, but the same would happen if the mag was fully loaded. But I wouldn't know, since when I'm target shooting, 5 is enough, many pauses between shots etc. Here's an additional image of: mag on the left with 5 rounds, mag on the right with 3:
(https://i.imgur.com/Pl6Wg3wl.jpg)
You can kinda see the difference in the angle, in the 1st image (fully loaded - it's like more nose-diving, where the one round images are more pointing upward). When there's one/3/5 rounds in the mag, I can tilt the round a little bit forward by pulling from under the bullet - I can see the follower tilting a lil' bit.
Feed lips don't seem to have any unnatural use underneath.
Are the cartridges stacked /nested all touching or is there gaps in the top two or three? If not then you may benefit from magazine body tuning
I can see it well in the 1st two rounds - they are definitely touching, the 3rd is the same, I think.
-
One more thing about the extractor
This is what's bugging me. Yesterday, at the end of my trip to the range, I talked to the "range officer", if you will, and told him all about my problems. We went through:
* do you reload?
* how's your extractor?
etc. Then he took my gun and I showed him the FTFs. I showed him a clear example of an FTF with one round. Then took a 2nd mag, loaded 3 and he himself released the slide (slingshotting), no FTF. But he said "but still, it's not going that smoothly". What he meant, and what I also noticed, is that sometimes you can hear two clicks. Maybe it's actually hard to hear in the ear pro, but I think I can feel it in the wrist when the slide closes. It may be nothing, I may be imagining things, because I'm not that experienced. I thought that this was due to the fact that the round is hitting the feed ramp at an incorrect angle or something (which would be the cause of an FTF), which it still might be. But there's this guy on YT that's talking about his problems with SP-01 Shadow.
Look here, I timestamped the video: https://youtu.be/jBPV-60_vLA?t=457 (https://youtu.be/jBPV-60_vLA?t=457). He's talking about the extractor, that it might be the reason for the "2 clicks" that you can hear on this video. Maybe that's something to think about as well. He mentions in the video description:
Yes, it was an extractor issue. I filed off 0.6mm and that fixed it.
I'm kinda bouncing between mag and extractor explanation, as you see. As for the extractor - I was thinking, well, new gun, how could an extractor be bad? But then one important detail - I bought this gun in late 2022. It's production date is 2020. It was in store for 2 years, where people may have been just playing with it. And how people do that? They rack the slide. And drop it. Many times. Could it just be that people were slamming that slide on an empty chamber so much that they bent the extractor? When I bought the gun, the barrel had visible marks on it, the "rail that the hammer rides on" had them too, so I know people where having their way with it in the store.
Anyway, I finally took out the extractor, cleaned it, here are the pics:
(https://i.imgur.com/IqJIRnAl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a90maunl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W934q3Kl.jpg)
Do you see something unusual here? Is it bent/out of shape?
-
Does the extractor have a chip on the claw? I can't tell in the picture but it looks like there is something on the claw. You want a smooth claw so it doesn't catch the cartridge as it feeds up the breechface.
Was there crud under the extractor claw? How dirty was the channel?
I don't think you want a heavier extactor spring as that will only aggravate the cartridge feeding up behind the claw. It may need to be tuned but it hard to tell virtually.
Cheers,
Toby
-
Does the extractor have a chip on the claw? I can't tell in the picture but it looks like there is something on the claw
(https://i.imgur.com/9u6iLLGl.png)
About the red arrow on the image. It points to a "gap" or "misalignment" of the extractor claw to this thing under the breeech face. I don't know if those should be in line perfectly, but there's like a fraction of a milimiter (like maybe 0.5mm) difference between those. I don't know if that means something, just wanted to point that out.
I don't know if you meant "on the claw" (as in "the side that faces the chamber") or "inside the claw" (as in "the side that faces the breech face"). I took out the extractor and felt a little "roughness" on the outside of the claw (facing the chamber), so I gave it a little polish. Very high grit, nothing invasive. I've recorder a short video showing the extractor, because it's hard to take a good picture:
https://i.imgur.com/Y5qVxpP.mp4
I don't know about the angles about some of the parts of this claw. I don't know anything about extractors, so these are maybe perfectly fine.
Was there crud under the extractor claw? How dirty was the channel?
There was, but not directly under it, it was on the back of the claw (I'm talking like the back of the claw arch, not the side that touches the rim). As for the whole extractor (back of it) and the channel, yeah, there was some gunk there, on the spring as well.
I don't think you want a heavier extactor spring as that will only aggravate the cartridge feeding up behind the claw
When I took out the spring, I saw that it's really heavy. I mean, I couldn't really squeeze it a bit in my fingers. I now replaced it with a spring from CZ, it has like a one coil more + it's a little bit, just a hair lighter, I could squeeze it a tiny amount in my fingers.
-
Got my extractor out, too.
Without even testing, I know this was contributing to the problem.
Didn't got a shot of the giant glob of goo behind it.
Before:
(https://i.imgur.com/IUsFurp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TPtzDu6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/x09zRIU.jpg)
That hunk of crud in the notch is right were I was having problems inserting cases by hand. Really hard to clean in there without taking it out!
After:
(https://i.imgur.com/xJC8MKS.jpg)
-
I had much less gunk there when I took the extractor apart, but still, that may be it. Did it fix your issue?
Oh, and by the way, could you provide more detailed image/images of the extractor claw, because I'm still paranoid that maybe mine is bent and I cannot for the life of me find videos on YT showing it up close from each side :( Would like to compare to make sure that everything is fine and I don't need a new extractor.
-
After cleaning the extractor, I had 30 perfect feeds followed by 9 out of 10 failures. (I have 4 10rd magazines.)
Had already spent 2 hrs fiddling was mags and was just done with it!
Took the faulty one to my gunshop. Proprietor/gunsmith couldn't tell what was wrong with it, but he took it apart and reassembled it. First pass, HE put the baseplate in backwards (it didn't go back together quite right.) So he did it again, and today I got 40 perfect feeds/extractions.
Expecting that to hold out for my next range session in 2 weeks.
Unfortunately, I didn't get any other pics of the extractor and have already re-installed it.
Sorry for posting such massive pics to your thread. I thought they were a little large, but didn't realize I was breaking forum rules. I didn't know how to fix them. Now I do, so I hope all is okay.
-
Hmm, that's strange. I mean, could it be just the mag? I have a new mag in a pristine state to check it on the range on Wednesday, but like having 3 mags in the box and each of them would be faulty? Low probability, but well, I ordered a new mag just to elimnate that variable.
Congratulations, by the way. I hope everything stays okay. 40 rounds is not the biggest sample size, but fingers crossed!
Unfortunately, I didn't get any other pics of the extractor and have already re-installed it.
It's okay. I mean, I'm trying to look at your pictures and I don't know, I think my extractor is kinda the same (maybe you could take a look at mine). Maybe someone more experienced from this forum could also take a look? :)
-
They do look the same to me. Probably need an expert to chime in.
-
They do look the same to me. Probably need an expert to chime in.
Yeah, I kept mine in the safe with the slide disassembled in case somebody would want a different pic of it, but then I found some images on the internet (finally), and yeah, mine doesn't look particularly different.
Anyway, on Wednesday (fingers crossed for open range slots) I'll be testing:
* new mag
* fully cleaned extractor (before I cleaned it without taking it out)
* I gave it a little polish on the outside, there was a little tiny rough spot there, nothing too invasive
* new extractor spring
* polished feed ramp
I'll start with the factory magazines to know if that was the extractor or mags. I will come back here for an update!
-
Okay, I've been to the range on Wednesday and I can say that I'm 99.9% sure that I fixed the issue. Finally, for the love of god.
What happened:
* packed a lot of different ammo (124gr, 140gr, 147gr, 154gr - flat nose, round nose, different manufacturers - S&B, limit.cz, Gecko)
* modifications made to the gun since last time - took out and fully cleaned the extractor and polished the feed ramp
* took a brand new mag as well
I started shooting with the new mag. As I experienced no malfunctions even with the dreaded last round in the mag, I wondered. After shooting through one box of ammo, I started to check out the factory mags. No issues whatsoever. I shot 100, then 150, then 200 rounds no problem. The gun felt better, the slide closing (during firing or just after insterting a mag) felt snappy, non-dragging if you will.
That lead me to a conclusion - this must be the extractor. Because that's what people mostly suggested here and on the other places on the internet.
But then something happened. I think it was the 7th box of ammo (I've run multiple ones, this was the 140gr ammo that I shot no problem at the beginning of the range session). Failure to feed again. I felt so sad, because it kept happening. After a few of those, I was cleaning a stuck round and I noticed something - the feed ramp was so so dirty. Like when I polished it it was silver, shiny. Now it was black. I know, obvious. But the amount of gunk there was actually surprising to me. I guess I've never shot that many rounds through one gun in one range session. This prompted me to quickly take it apart, I've had some CLP in the bag (I use different chemicals at home) and Q-tips. I have it a few wipes with CLP on the Q-tip - I wasn't able to get the gunk out, just slightly. Reassembled and boom - again no malfunctions. After shooting 100 rounds more, there were occasional FTFs as well - but this I'm sure was to the fact that I wasn't able to clean it properly. So I think I can say:
IT'S THE FEED RAMP
I think it may have some irregularities from the factory. Maybe it was angled slighty wrong. But just polishing it - nothing too invasive, a gentle polish, 1500 grit and the issue was gone like magic. Funny thing is, I do polish the feed ramps on all of my handguns, but I left this particular one be because "oh, this is my favourite gun, I don't wanna mess with it". I still have some testing to do, but I can pretty much say that the issue is resolved.
Thanks to all of you guys that have helped me in this thread! @EndangeredSpecies, you may wanna try this on your gun as well. I will go to the range again on Wednesday and try to confirm, but I think like 300-400 rounds is a good sample size.
I have two questions:
1. Well, do you guys think this is it, the feed ramp?
2. If so, do you think I should polish it a lil' more? (just to maybe increase the number of rounds that can be fired through a very dirty gun on one range session before the FTFs happen again)?
-
First off congrats! You've definitely earned your range time with this gun.
Secondly you need to stop and take a picture of the failure and share it. Have your phone ready and snap a pic next time it happens. Your gun should be able to run many more rounds than that without cleaning.
Is the round in the chamber or hung up on the feed ramp? Did that ammo pass the plunk test?
I lock the slide back and take a rag and wipe the feed ramp with my finger as best I can. That gets me through the range day or competition so I can pull apart and clean.
I just polish the ramp with a compound and felt wheel in my Dremel (rotary too l). That usually gets it mirror like fairly quick.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk
-
Secondly you need to stop and take a picture of the failure and share it. Have your phone ready and snap a pic next time it happens. Your gun should be able to run many more rounds than that without cleaning.
Will do! I think on Wednesday. Assuming the malfunction actually happens. But yeah, if it does, I will take a picture. Could it be that I didn't polish the feed ramp enough (or thoroughly) and this is what on one hand fixed the issue, but on the other hand - not fully (like you mentioned - it should be able to run more rounds without cleaning). Here are the pics of it if you wanna take a look:
(https://i.imgur.com/IubxbrNl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sdXfDGKl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FXSoL0Sl.jpg)
Is the round in the chamber or hung up on the feed ramp?
Round it partially in the chamber. I mean, the bullet (nose of the round) is hitting the top of the chamber - the whole cartridge is angled up. It looks something like this (this is a picture of a different CZ, from the internet):
(https://i.imgur.com/gXKDJPGl.jpeg)
Did that ammo pass the plunk test?
Yes. I've tested 124gr S&B (this is what I was shooting the most last couple of months) and 140gr S&B (I'm starting to like it more now). A distinct "ting" and a free spin back and forth. And just to be clear, this was the 2nd box of the same ammo (140gr S&B), so it's not like it's the ammo (I think), because I shot a full box of it at the beginning of my trip with no issues.
I lock the slide back and take a rag and wipe the feed ramp with my finger as best I can. That gets me through the range day or competition so I can pull apart and clean.
Yeah. I think maybe I didn't do a good enough job polishing it and ad hoc cleaning it at the range. But when I was at the range I thought exactly what you said - "well, I've done it, fixed it and whether I'm in competition or just training, I'll be able to give it a quick wipe to get me going". And felt relieved :)
I just polish the ramp with a compound and felt wheel in my Dremel (rotary too l). That usually gets it mirror like fairly quick.
I just take a sandpaper and a Q-tip (that is because it fits into the feed ramp, so I polish the inside of the "channel" not the area outside it by pushing the sandpaper into the feed ramp with the Q-tip). It's not yet mirror-like and I think I can do a better job, definitely.
-
I did polish the feed ramp on mine after 100 rounds. Used 2 different grits of lapping compound. Wasn't mirror, but is very smooth.
I got a lot of grief over on my thread because "A new CZ shouldn't need it."
I'm going to the range on Monday, but pretty sure mine was the grimy extractor, exacerbated by incorrectly reassembling a magazine or 2.
(Failures began before I touched any of the magazines, so they were not the initial cause.)
Will find out for sure soon!
Thanks for the pointers.
-
Another update!
I polished the feed ramp some more (almost a mirror finish). I went to the range yesterday and started to shoot. Gun cleaned, took the factory mags and the new one I already had on the previous range trip.
After something like 80 rounds - whoopsie, failure to feed. Cleared it, started shooting again. So, like before, this happened at the last round in the mag - I mean the last round wouldn't chamber. It happened a couple more times (not always, as usual). I noticed that this happened on a factory mag. These mags were only cleaned once - a couple of months ago (many rounds through the gun since then), but my understanding was, that this was due to the feed ramp inconsistencies (and it getting dirty), not the mags, that's why I forgot about them. However, I switched to the new mag (I also had it on the range a week ago), shot another 100 rounds through that mag only - no issues at all. And I deliberately loaded 2-3 rounds max to see what happens on the last round.
@tdogg
I promised you pics of the malfunction and I'm a man of my word :) I took some pictures on the range, I attach one of them here below:
(https://i.imgur.com/Vx3IHnTl.jpg)
You can see the rest of the pics here (I didn't want to clutter up the thread) - https://imgur.com/a/5eVZ9xm (https://imgur.com/a/5eVZ9xm). There are a couple of them, I tried to show it from the different angles. Sorry for the quality of some of them - the range has bad lighting + I obviously couldn't point the gun anywhere else other than the target, so it was a lil' bit tricky.
So, my guess is - the polishing of the feed ramp definitely helped. But all the things here are connected. So, for example - I think that old/factory mags are the issue (due to gunk on the follower, gunk inside, bad spring). Either the dirt on the follower angles the round incorrectly, maybe they don't have enough force, maybe they are too slow to push the last round as the slide cycles and the round goes forward under a strange angle. Things that mitigated this - stronger recoil spring (basically pushing the cartridge by force, that's why I decided not to use it like a month ago) and the aforementioned polished feed ramp. As the feed ramp gets dirty, the advantages from it getting polished are diminished, that's why at the beginning everything is fine, later the problems start occurring.
I also now cleaned the mags after coming back from the range. Scrubbed metal parts with a brush and solvent, followers with Q-tips and cotton pads (as they are plastic). Here's a before:
(https://i.imgur.com/TH5aTDul.jpg)
and after:
(https://i.imgur.com/8xMBuVEl.jpg)
I also installed a new follower in one of the factory mags: (so now I have 2 factory ones, one factory with a new follower and a completely new one)
(https://i.imgur.com/wF2zz8Tl.jpg)
So, this is my next quess - mags. Unfortunately, I didn't keep track of which mags I was shooting at my previous range trip (a week ago, not yesterday), so I don't know if malfunctions also happened on a new mag then, but yesterday I saw that they happened only on the factory uncleaned mags, the new one worked flawlessly (it's just 100+ rounds is not that big of a sample size). Now I have them all clean and ready to go. Next range trip (again, probably Wednesday) I will try to shoot them all and see what happens. Because, as you, @tdogg, said - it shouldn't be like 100 rounds till a malfunction happens (due to a dirty feed ramp). The only thing that wasn't cleaned between the range trips was the mags. I only cleaned them once after like maybe first 200 rounds and then I think I shot something like 1500 more without any mag maintenance. I did that now (and tried to do a thorough job).
Soo, what do you think? Could it be the mags? I mean this is what I'm thinking (because yesterday the malfunctions didn't happend on a new mag). The only thing that makes me not 100% convinced is I only shot like 100-150 rounds through the new mag yesterday (silly of me not to keep track of which mags I was shooting with a week ago) and this is maybe not the biggest sample size, maybe it was luck.
-
Honestly, you've exhausted the easy things to inspect, clean, and tune. It's time to employ a professional or send it back to the factory. This thing has something off that isn't readily apparent.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk
-
Thanks for the images. It looks like the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor. I don't attribute that type of failure to feed as a magazine issue. Not saying it couldn't be though.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk
-
In the photo you posted...
(https://i.imgur.com/Vx3IHnTl.jpg)
• I'd have to say that the area to worry about is not the feed ramp (that mission is accomplished), nor is it the magazine (that mission is also accomplished), but rather the bolt face. That's where all the sliding is occurring. The bolt face and the underside of the extractor.
• Also, what happened to the round that's in this picture ? No mention of that. Was it tested for plunk and spin, or anything else ?
-
Thanks again guys for keeping up the support! :)
@tdogg
Honestly, you've exhausted the easy things to inspect, clean, and tune. It's time to employ a professional or send it back to the factory. This thing has something off that isn't readily apparent.
Oh the dreaded warranty :) Yeah, the gun is still under warranty, I just don't wanna lose it for god knows how long. I also hope that the polishing that I done doesn't void it (I would probably need to reinstall every factory spring etc. but that's not an issue). As for a professional, I finally found a local business - couple of guys that specialize in CZs. They're pricey, but I think I'd probably go to them first.
Thanks for the images. It looks like the cartridge is hanging up on the extractor. I don't attribute that type of failure to feed as a magazine issue. Not saying it couldn't be though.
I took some pictures from the extractor side (in the link I provided above). I know they're not good. I took out and cleaned the extractor a week ago. Then 300 rounds, cleaning (without taking it out) and the range visit yesterday. So I think (or hope) that it's not like it's dirty. I also changed out the spring there (from CZ). If it was the extractor, the only thing that would come to mind that it's maybe bent somehow, but I compared it to the images of CZ75 extractors online and didn't find any differences.
@Wobbly
I'd have to say that the area to worry about is not the feed ramp (that mission is accomplished), nor is it the magazine (that mission is also accomplished), but rather the bolt face. That's where all the sliding is occurring. The bolt face and the underside of the extractor.
Hmm. Okay, I think 2 weeks ago I tried to really clean the breech face (or bolt face like you say, sorry, I'm not sure about the terminology). And I clean it every time. I took some pictures now - don't judge me, the gun's not been cleaned yet - I only wiped the breech face with Q-tips and cotton pads:
(https://i.imgur.com/z2lfBn4l.jpg)
And here's the underside of the extractor:
(https://i.imgur.com/3ajWGorl.jpg)
You mentioned that the issue could be happening on the bolt face. The bronze coloring is not rust but rather brass. I took my pinky to check how smooth it is - it wasn't like glass, but it's not like it's rough or something. Do you see something unusual here? Should I, I don't know, polish it or maybe something is out of shape?
Also, what happened to the round that's in this picture ? No mention of that. Was it tested for plunk and spin, or anything else ?
Okay, that round (I mean the exact piece you see on the image) was not plunk&spin tested on the range. However that round (meaning S&B 140gr) was tested by me (took about 15 different rounds from the box, no issue at all) among other rounds that I use. I should've done that, but I forgot about it. Next time if the malfunction occurs, I will do that, definitely!
-
Okay, that round (I mean the exact piece you see on the image) was not plunk&spin tested on the range. However that round (meaning S&B 140gr) was tested by me (took about 15 different rounds from the box, no issue at all) among other rounds that I use. I should've done that, but I forgot about it. Next time if the malfunction occurs, I will do that, definitely!
OK, so my thinking (not that it means very much or can be traded for a cup of coffee) is that....
The first thing to determine is it worth investigating? It could be like finding 5 fraudulent votes in an election where 10,000 votes were counted. Yes, they are fraudulent, but they did not effect the outcome. As sad as it sounds, once a year a doctor somewhere drops a newborn baby. In short, 100% is a fabulous goal, but the reality is always more like 99.99%.
The second thing to determine is the round the culprit or an innocent bystander in a mechanical malfunction? To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.
All ammo makers are having trouble right now. Even the "really good", "trusted", previously high quality makers are having trouble. You can not rule out a bad round today based on a reputation earned 5 years ago. 2022/23 is simply an era unto itself. If someone believes otherwise, then those people are out of touch with reality.
The possible answer was right in your hands, and yet there was zero follow through to help answer your own question. What I'm saying is: In a research lab environment, you'd be fired. In a serious legal case, you'd be prosecuted for 'destroying evidence'. This action is a serious issue unto itself.
IMHO, (with no malice toward the OP or disrespect in any form) as a researcher for multiple Fortune 500 companies....
• The bottom line is that you may be asking us to "unlock" a question to which you hold all the keys.
• You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.
• You should proabably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.
• And put less credence in what you read on the internet (including me) and depend more on what CZ and CZ-USA publish.
All the best.
-
Thanks for the constructive criticism!
The first thing to determine is it worth investigating?
This is a very good question. I was talking to a buddy of mine like an hour ago and I said that if I don't fix it in the next week or two (just checking the mags, definitely testing the ammo that will malfunction, maybe even taking it home for a further investigation), then it's either a gunsmith or I simply don't care. I can shoot bullseye even if once in X rounds I have an FTF, it's not the end of the world. But it pains me. Additionally, in the future (maybe near future), I'd like to get another CZ75 - either Shadow 2 Orange or TS2 Orange and I would like to have more confidence in CZs. If I'd be able to fix that one, my confidence would be increased.
To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.
Yes, exactly. I kinda neglected the ammo question and that was wrong of me. Coincidentally, I order a precision caliper yesterday, I can use it to test out the ammo (from the box and the one I will take back from the range - the one that malfunctioned)
You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.
About this: people from my range and the gun shop shoot IPSC. Many of them use the TS2 and Shadow 2. It's them that recommended the 140gr S&B rounds for example. However, it's not like the 124gr rounds (which I have a stockpile of) worked flawlessly. I only started shooting those heaver rounds like two weeks ago, the FTFs were happening before that, when I was shooting 124 S&B 99% of the time.
You should proabably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.
I can, it's not a problem for me. I will prioritize them on the next range trip, but I doubt it will help...
To sum up, I will test the newly cleaned mags on the next range trip + I will take every round that malfunctioned home to test it (and probably plunk test it on the spot additionally). I'm also curious about this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0 (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0). The 3rd point mentions the slide stop interfering with the round being chambered. I didn't pay attention to it on the range, nor it's visible on the images, plus I don't exactly know if I'd be able to see it if it happens on the range. However, as the slide stop is a spare part, I could potentially try to file it off a bit. What do you think? Could it also contribute to the FTFs?
-
1. Thanks for the constructive criticism!
The first thing to determine is it worth investigating?
2. This is a very good question. I was talking to a buddy of mine like an hour ago and I said that if I don't fix it in the next week or two (just checking the mags, definitely testing the ammo that will malfunction, maybe even taking it home for a further investigation), then it's either a gunsmith or I simply don't care. I can shoot bullseye even if once in X rounds I have an FTF, it's not the end of the world. But it pains me. Additionally, in the future (maybe near future), I'd like to get another CZ75 - either Shadow 2 Orange or TS2 Orange and I would like to have more confidence in CZs. If I'd be able to fix that one, my confidence would be increased.
To answer this you must segregate the exact round in the "abnormality" and test it completely, because the source of the malfunction could (equally) be the ammo or the gun.
Yes, exactly. I kinda neglected the ammo question and that was wrong of me. Coincidentally, I order a precision caliper yesterday, I can use it to test out the ammo (from the box and the one I will take back from the range - the one that malfunctioned)
You may be creating part of the issue by insisting the gun run ammo that it was not designed for or ever tested with.
3. About this: people from my range and the gun shop shoot IPSC. Many of them use the TS2 and Shadow 2. It's them that recommended the 140gr S&B rounds for example. However, it's not like the 124gr rounds (which I have a stockpile of) worked flawlessly. I only started shooting those heaver rounds like two weeks ago, the FTFs were happening before that, when I was shooting 124 S&B 99% of the time.
You should probably transition back to 124gr FMJ for the next 5000 rounds and see what happens.
I can, it's not a problem for me. I will prioritize them on the next range trip, but I doubt it will help...
To sum up, I will test the newly cleaned mags on the next range trip + I will take every round that malfunctioned home to test it (and probably plunk test it on the spot additionally). I'm also curious about this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0 (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0). The 3rd point mentions the slide stop interfering with the round being chambered. I didn't pay attention to it on the range, nor it's visible on the images, plus I don't exactly know if I'd be able to see it if it happens on the range. However, as the slide stop is a spare part, I could potentially try to file it off a bit. What do you think? Could it also contribute to the FTFs?
1. Thanks for taking it as "constructive". I truly meant it as such, but I'm a very fact-oriented, numbers-type guy. A lot of people don't get my 'directness'. But by the time a thread gets to 4 pages I figured it's time for some new ideas. ;D
2. One thing to remember about a gunsmith.... they will be even more in the dark than your audience here is. By this I mean they are not likely to grab up 5000 rounds and take the pistol to the range. No. They may fire a mag or 2 at the most... during which time they may, or may not, experience the same thing. And this could be because they test with Federal 115gr, they use only personal "trusted mags", they use a different gun oil, or they may test with one of those rock-solid pistol stands. Who knows ?
A really good gunsmith is first going to see if the gun will "talk" to him/her. (People who deal with machines for a living often have this 'knack'.) If there is no communication, then (to keep the charges reasonable) they will head right for the "top 10 CZ fixes" and hope they spot something while they complete that list. Most of these "fixes" revolve around polishing and loosening the tolerances at various points as though the gun had run 5000 rounds. If you'll think about it, what else can they do?
3. I don't think anyone is trying to intentionally mislead you. Not here or in your group of shooting friends. But the big difference is your gun is new and theirs is not. Tiny differences in wear patterns, added options, spring weights, lubrication.... they all add up.
• Personally, I'm a big believer in going back to the beginning. Start with the stock factory gun, stock springs, 124gr FMJ ammo, etc.
• Yes, investigate the slide stop. That's a known issue, but it doesn't effect every gun. Definitely be aware it exists, look for it and keep checking for it.
• Yes, clean the mags. Clean the gun. Wash your hands. Clean with fresh lubricant is a good thing.
• And then go shoot. Lots. Let your gun get fully "broken in". Then as you shoot, you can add one option back each month.
• One FTF is not the end of the world. It's why we practice clearing the gun.
That's probably a moderate, low cost, low stress solution.
All the best.
-
2. One thing to remember about a gunsmith.... they will be even more in the dark than your audience here is. By this I mean they are not likely to grab up 5000 rounds and take the pistol to the range. No. They may fire a mag or 2 at the most... during which time they may, or may not, experience the same thing. And this could be because they test with Federal 115gr, they use only personal "trusted mags", they use a different gun oil, or they may test with one of those rock-solid pistol stands. Who knows ?
That's true. This is kinda the last resort but I totally agree with you. Me (not an expert) and you guys have spent so much time in here that it's a really low possibility of a gunsmith to actually find anything. Especially because, as you said, checking if the solution works involves firing the gun. And not 20 not 50 times, because no one knows when the malfunction will happen. That's unfortunate for me as well, since I really like to tinker with stuff, but I have no way of knowing if my fix worked right away - I have to wait to go to the range and obviously ammunition is not cheap :)
Personally, I'm a big believer in going back to the beginning. Start with the stock factory gun, stock springs, 124gr FMJ ammo, etc.
Yes. My plan for the next range trip is to take a whole lotta ammo, take the factory recoil spring (I don't think that the trigger and sear spring that I replaced are in any way connected to my issues) and if the malfunction happens (so I'm sure that the mags or the slide stop fix, if I do it, didn't help) I'll just switch to the factory recoil spring. I'm kinda expecting it to work, because it did - I tested multiple springs and this was the only one that wasn't giving me FTFs (again not sure if the sample size is big enough). The big thing is - as far as I remember, I think the FTFs happened with the factory configuration. But this could mean nothing because since then the gun has been broken in a bit, I polished some stuff and definitely learned better gun maintenance. As I said earlier, this is not ideal that I'd have to leave this gun in a factory state, because one of the reasons I was getting a CZ75 was the immense amount of possibilities to tinker and change stuff in it.
But I started to treat it like - maybe this gun is a lemon (just slightly) and I for sure will get another in the future (this time investing in an Orange, SH2 or TS2). But for now I'll just have fun with it, shoot it, periodically try to fix the FTFs. Without stressing about it, without hanging on the edge of my seat for the next range trip to finally see if I fixed it.
Yes, investigate the slide stop. That's a known issue, but it doesn't effect every gun. Definitely be aware it exists, look for it and keep checking for it.
As the slide stop is a spare part and is compatible with most CZ75s, I don't worry about tinkering with it, since even if I have to get one spare, I can use it in other CZs (that I'll most certainly have). Additionally, as I have the TS2 base model, I may even go for one with the gas pedal. Definitely something to check, I'll try to investigate before the range trip, maybe I'll be able to see if that's the issue at home.
Yes, clean the mags. Clean the gun. Wash your hands. Clean with fresh lubricant is a good thing.
Done and I will continue to do so. I'm still kind of a novice, I have my gun license (Europe, you utter hellhole for gun enthusiasts) for almost a year now and I actually neglected the mags. I always thought to myself: "how can a magazine cause a malfunction". But now (even if it turns out it's not the mags) I will take good care of all of my magazines.
• And then go shoot. Lots. Let your gun get fully "broken in". Then as you shoot, you can add one option back each month.
• One FTF is not the end of the world. It's why we practice clearing the gun.
That's probably a moderate, low cost, low stress solution.
Yes. After I read your previous answer this is what immediately came to me. It's like I was stuck in a loop that was causing me to think that "I JUST HAVE TO HAVE THIS DONE AND I WANT IT NOW". This caused me a lot of stress, I spent a lot of money on new springs, deliveries etc. But thinking about this now, I should just take a chill pill, go out, have fun with the gun and incrementally try new things. It may be just like you said, maybe something will "loosen up" after I shoot more rounds through the gun. Granted, I don't think that a gun for like $1300-$1400 should require this from me. But overall I take it all positively, during this period (and the time to come) I learned so much about CZs and guns in general.
So, summing up, next range trip is just a test of the newly cleaned mags + maybe the slide stop thing. If it still doesn't work, factory configuration (recoil spring) it is. I will be reporting back (if something works or even if it doesn't :)), because maybe there's someone having the same/similar issue and they could use all the knowledge and advice in this thread.
-
@dabljues
Can you confirm that ammo you are using is 100% fully functional in other pistol(s)?
I have 2 boxes of czech factory 124 fmj ammo, which will pass 3 different case gauge tests, 6 different barrel plunk tests, but also will cause FTF jams in all of them.
-
Can you confirm that ammo you are using is 100% fully functional in other pistol(s)?
I'm using the S&B 124gr FMJ ammo. The TS2 wasn't my first handgun, before I was using it in my Sig Sauer P320 M17, ran some rounds through my CZ P-07. It was not even close to the amount I shot through the TS2 (as it's the most pleasurable gun to shoot). So technically, no, I didn't have those issues there. But I didn't shoot that many rounds to be certain in the first place.
So, I cannot really confirm that, but now as I'm shooting the M17 periodically (maybe 30-50 rounds each range trip), I had no issues.
-
I just thought of another thing that I think I will try out the next time.
For all my guns, I use an oil. Tried grease a while back for some particular places but I decided not to. Especially, after one time that I went to the range and put 8lb recoil spring in the TS2 when the barrel and the slide rails were greased. Failure to feed each time. The thing that made me try the grease in the first place was: it stayed there. So if I clean and lube my gun today and go to the range week later - the grease is still here. However, in case of some thinner oils, they tend to leave the gun pretty quickly when it's in the safe. So, after I put the grease aside, I started looking for a thicker oil, found it and started using it.
I bought the gun in November 2022. Now it's March. That means (in my country), that it's still cold, like 30-40F. Especially, as I visit the range in the evening. So for the entire period that I had this gun, I was shooting in on cold weather. Cold weather + thick oil equals gumming up. In my other guns it could be just fine because of higher tolerances. But the TS2 is made quite tight. I was lurking the internet for the CZ TS2 Orange content (it's on my shopping list) and actually found a guy that complained about FTFs in Shadow 2 Orange. He used grease. After he switched to a thin oil, the issue went away. Granted, it was grease, not oil, but the oil I use is kinda thick.
So, my thinking is, after I clean the gun this time, I can just use a thinner oil (in spray form) that I have lying around. I don't know if it makes sense, maybe it doesn't, but as it doesn't cost me anything, I think it's worth a try. I kinda assume that this is not a silver bullet, just another thing that could make the action smoother, like polishing the feed ramp that seemingly helped a bit. But this is just a small addition to the more important thing, like you mentioned, @Wobbly, which is checking the ammo that malfunctions - if it does.
-
I'm still kind of a novice, I have my gun license (Europe, you utter hellhole for gun enthusiasts) for almost a year now and...
I had to laugh! Somedays you proabably sit there and wonder why you simply didn't take up something benign like clock collecting. The truth is, every hobby has it's "learning curve" and some very troublesome rough spots. Work from the factory setup... toward what you understand to be "best practice".
I learned the same lesson about "gun greases". Results can be VERY temperature dependent. I now exclusively use thin synthetic motor oil, something like 0W20. One drop on each rail, one drop on the barrel, one drop on the trigger group. The stuff migrates to where it's needed. And the best part is, the 4 drops left in each can after changing my oil is all it takes.
Keep in mind that the difference in your gun and everybody else's "perfect gun" can be 0.001mm of wear, polish & buffing, and rounding of formerly sharp edges. A dimension so small you can't see it. A dimension so small you'd need to be in a lab to measure it.
You'll get there.
-
I had to laugh! Somedays you proabably sit there and wonder why you simply didn't take up something benign like clock collecting
Actually, collecting watches was my primary hobby before I learned that I can in fact own a gun if I manage to suffer through the bureaucracy :D Since I've become a gun owner, nothing has consumed me more in my life.
I learned the same lesson about "gun greases". Results can be VERY temperature dependent. I now exclusively use thin synthetic motor oil, something like 0W20. One drop on each rail, one drop on the barrel, one drop on the trigger group. The stuff migrates to where it's needed. And the best part is, the 4 drops left in each can after changing my oil is all it takes.
Yeah. I think most of the guys in my shooting club use motor oils - because it's cheaper. I'll never go back to grease (maybe except for some semi-auto rifles, which I currently don't own). Now I'll definitely go with a thin oil and see what happens. Maybe nothing, but it's still good to remember the differences between lubricants when the weather is taken into equation.
Keep in mind that the difference in your gun and everybody else's "perfect gun" can be 0.001mm of wear, polish & buffing, and rounding of formerly sharp edges. A dimension so small you can't see it. A dimension so small you'd need to be in a lab to measure it.
This is exactly right! No two guns are made equal, not the production nor the hand-fitted ones.
-
An update!
I went to the range yesterday, fully prepared:
* cleaned the gun and used a thinner oil, as I mentioned
* all mags were fresh clean, I also used DuPont teflon spray on them (not for lubrication per se, but preservation)
* done a lil' polish to the slide stop tip (as in here (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=22862.0)) - nothing invasive, I took almost no metal
* took the factory recoil spring
* took a little ammo box to collect the malfunctioning rounds
* I even took a caliper
So, I went and shot 290 rounds, I counted (shot 4 boxes of 124gr, 1 box of 140gr and 1 of 150gr, all S&B). Not one malfunction! I was happy like a child. And before that I could be skeptical because, well, 300 rounds may not be enough to jam the gun up. However, this time, I really felt the snappiness. What I mean by that is when I was closing the slide via the slide stop or by slingshotting it, I sometimes (especially later during the range visit) could feel it dragging. Like it wasn't snappy, it was sluggish + I sometimes could feel the round hitting the feed ramp and only then feel the second "click" of the action closing.
This time it was different. No matter if I pushed the slide or used the slingshot method, each time it was really snappy and fast. Same thing during shooting. Sometimes, during the recoil, I could feel a strange movement of the slide. Like it wasn't just back->forward movement, a quick one, it felt like the slide was "sliding" or "gliding" on its own timing. Hard to explain, I'd attribute it to a thicker oil. But to sum up, each time the action closed it was snappy. I had issues with it before when slingshotting (probably because I didn't take my fingers off the slide soon enough and I was riding it back for a tiny moment), but now no matter what I did - snappy (I'm repeating myself so much).
Anyway, aside from the mags and the different oil, nothing changed since my previous visit which had serious hangups after like 70-80 rounds. I'm telling myself that this has to be the mags, but deep in my heart I feel that this is due to the oil. I really don't wanna entertain that thought, since if it is/was the oil, then I wasted time, energy and money just to fix something that could be done by going to the other room and grabbing a different can of oil. I think it could be just a combination of things that was necessary for my specific gun: polishing the feed ramp, deep cleaning the mags, changing the oil I use. And probably each one of these helped on its own, as the gun got dirty during shooting, it wasn't enough. Now I did them all and even at the end of the trip, the gun pretty much felt the same as during the first shots.
Soo, I don't know. I think I could say that the issue is resolved. I don't think I can provide an answer like "it was X" or "it was Y". I think that it was "X, Y and Z", but at least for now I attribute the most of it to the oil (really thin one, spray form).
One question: I shot 300 rounds, okay. As it was mentioned previously in this thread, the gun should be able to shoot more without cleaning. Not that I endorse this (I clean my guns after every range trip), but just to check if it's really "fixed" - should I maybe not clean the gun, leave it be and go to the range next week? I would just probably oil it before going out. This could prove that it wasn't just luck and the issue is gone. I thought about that because if I clean it, then the next range trip I'll also be tempted to shoot 300 rounds (my wallet burns) but if the result is the same, it's not that meaningful. But without cleaning it, each shot is a meaningful test, piling up on those 300 I've shot yesterday. And I could then come back and say: "hey, today I shot another 300, it's 600 without cleaning the gun and not one hangup!". What do you think?
-
One question: I shot 300 rounds, okay. As it was mentioned previously in this thread, the gun should be able to shoot more without cleaning. Not that I endorse this (I clean my guns after every range trip), but just to check if it's really "fixed" - should I maybe not clean the gun, leave it be and go to the range next week? I would just probably oil it before going out. This could prove that it wasn't just luck and the issue is gone. I thought about that because if I clean it, then the next range trip I'll also be tempted to shoot 300 rounds (my wallet burns) but if the result is the same, it's not that meaningful. But without cleaning it, each shot is a meaningful test, piling up on those 300 I've shot yesterday. And I could then come back and say: "hey, today I shot another 300, it's 600 without cleaning the gun and not one hangup!". What do you think?
That depends upon your ammo. Some powders will leave a lot of ash and trash, some powders just carbon black, others still nothing. You'll need to be the judge.
-
I think you should just shoot it until it starts failing (assuming this is a range toy). Maybe add some oil to the rails on occasion?
Were you running the factory recoil spring or did you take it just in case? If you swapped back to the factory recoil spring, I'd wager that was the solution. I have a hard time believing your lubricant was causing this (unless you are using Honey).
Congrats on figuring it out??!
Cheers,
Toby
-
I think you should just shoot it until it starts failing (assuming this is a range toy). Maybe add some oil to the rails on occasion?
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Were you running the factory recoil spring or did you take it just in case? If you swapped back to the factory recoil spring, I'd wager that was the solution.
I took it just in case. Assuming a random rep from CZ is right, the factory one in TS2 is 13lbs. I was using an 11lbs one (also from CZ, I ordered it a couple of weeks ago). And this time, 11lbs felt like 13lbs. I'm not talking about the weight, but about the feeling of the action closing. Before - heaver recoil spring gave me that "snap" when it closed (so the initial issue was still there, but having more power, it got the job done by brute force). Like it was a sure thing, click and done. The 11lbs one was like - sometimes it was sluggish, I could feel it's like a two stage process, not a quick single snap. But this time, each time I dropped the slide, it felt good.
I have a hard time believing your lubricant was causing this (unless you are using Honey)
Hmm, well. Not exactly honey. It is a thick synthetic oil in a bottle (not spray form). It is meant for guns, sold by a reputable brand in Poland. I can give you a link here (https://riflecx.com/en/product-clp-oil/), but it doesn't say much. I'm also not that convinced that it was lubrication alone, I'd attribute this to 3 things: feed ramp polish, cleaning the mags and changing the oil, but I don't know.
Congrats on figuring it out??!
Thanks and fingers crossed man! I mean, I'm tempted to leave the gun "dirty", just lube it before going out to the range next week and see what happens. Even right now I'm actually convinced it worked. Because the "snappiness" of the gun didn't deteriorate as more rounds were fired. Granted, it wasn't a 1000 rounds, but still.
-
An update!
Well, yesterday I was at the range. Didn't clean the gun, I only oiled it up and cleaned the feed ramp a little bit with a Q-tip.
200 rounds fired through the gun, not one malfunction. I think this proves that the issue was fixed. Whatever it was. From now on, I will clean the mags regularly, maybe look at the lubrication more seriously. Other than that, I guess it is and was fine. Maybe it was a tiny difference in the machining and the gun just needed to be broken in. Can't really say
I wanna thank all of you guys! Thanks for the tips, ideas and patience! It was a life saver for me. If any of you are ever in Poland, drinks are on me!
-
I wanna thank all of you guys! Thanks for the tips, ideas and patience! It was a life saver for me. If any of you are ever in Poland, drinks are on me!
We always have MORE ideas !
Thanks for your input. We had a great time working through the issue.
All the best.