The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: vblue42 on November 19, 2014, 12:22:41 AM
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In an effort to assist Manticore Arms on their new interest in manufacturing accessories for VZ platform of rifles I have created this poll. Let's assist this wonderful US company in finally manufacturing accessories at a price and quality we can all afford. You can only vote once but you can select multiple items.
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Nice!
Thanks, this helps us a lot to see what the market wants. 8)
Sven
Manticore Arms
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Nice!
Thanks, this helps us a lot to see what the market wants. 8)
Sven
Manticore Arms
Ok, how about:
Windage (and elevation) adjustable aperture (or peep) rear iron sight
Railed (a-la troy) but gently angled stock adapter with 3 full slots on the rail ( same height)
kalifornia compliant non pistol grip - grip = web of hand to thumb not wrapping around grip for "feature-less" configuration and blending nicely with abovementioned stock adapter
Also a 30 magazine clip and a shoulder thing that goes up
... you asked :-*
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Added the adjustable rear sight per Franz.
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Welcome to the Forum, Manticore_Arms, from Rockford, Illinois, USA! :)
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Tactical bolt release is got to be the hardest thing to find. I would start there.
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Tactical bolt release is got to be the hardest thing to find. I would start there.
I had a feeling when I created this poll that the tactical bolt release would rank among the highest. I still feel it may win the poll.
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How about a small metal optic mount stand that bolts directly to the stock upper hand guard? You would have to cut a rectangular hole on the beaver barf hand guard cover and then drill the steel sheet metal part to attach the stand. It could have a rail on it or proprietary mounts for co-witnessing reflex sights.
For a simpler option, a optic mount that installs over a stock upper hand guard, beaver barf and all. If you could make it partially co-witness the irons that would be fantastic. Might be doable if you used proprietary base configurations vs. a standard rail. Make it for some affordable reflex sights like the Fastfire, Accelerator, Primary Arms offerings, etc.
Please do this so I don't have to. I am sure your end product will be nicer anyway!
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I voted for most of the available options, but I was going to say, maybe consider instead of a pistol grip, maybe an AR15 pistol grip adapter. I would love to run a Magpul MOE + on a VZ.
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A nice all metal hand guard. Smooth so key mod would probably look the best with a built in top rail. I hate the original furniture
Have to do the poll when I get home. Tapatalk doesn't show it for some reason
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More affordable mags would be awesome.
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My vote is for 20 round mags. As far as I can tell nobody makes these, or at least not for affordable prices. We've got the issue 30 round mags and there's a few low capacity mags out there, but nothing in between.
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I will state this again, we are not going to make magazines for teh VZ58.
You can get surplus mags at Apexgunparts for $20 each when you buy four.
The cost of the tooling would far, far, far outweigh what we could ever recoup on sales. Multi stage stamping dies plus the welding would easily exceed $100,000 in tooling. Same for molds a polymer only magazine- $50,000-$80,000 in just tooling.
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QD/ railed top cover for mounting optic is probably one of the most desired items.
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An ambi bolt release, an optic mount that is easily removed or still lets you utilize the hard sights and a stock adapter so you can put your own adjustable stock on it (folding would be awesome), that is reasonably priced. Maybe even sliding a la MP5. I would be happy with a bolt release ::)
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You guys want a bolt release that sticks out on the right side liek some companies have offered, or one that is tucked underneath and close to the trigger guard?
I favor the second option a little more personally....
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You guys want a bolt release that sticks out on the right side liek some companies have offered, or one that is tucked underneath and close to the trigger guard?
I favor the second option a little more personally....
Im having a hard time visualizing the second idea...
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A replica/reproduction of the Czech Special Forces muzzle brake would be nice.
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I knew it! The tactical bolt release would be one of the top items. I still think it will win.
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You guys want a bolt release that sticks out on the right side liek some companies have offered, or one that is tucked underneath and close to the trigger guard?
I favor the second option a little more personally....
It must not get in the way of zendl's ambi mag release, of course
(http://files.vz58rifle.com/200001250-aa5acac4f4-public/Zvetsena_paka_vypousteni_zaveru_SA58_DSC_0909_800x600.jpg)
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As long as I can access it with my trigger finger for both catch and release I don't care. I would say the lower the profile the better though.
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You guys want a bolt release that sticks out on the right side liek some companies have offered, or one that is tucked underneath and close to the trigger guard?
I favor the second option a little more personally....
It must not get in the way of zendl's ambi mag release, of course
(http://files.vz58rifle.com/200001250-aa5acac4f4-public/Zvetsena_paka_vypousteni_zaveru_SA58_DSC_0909_800x600.jpg)
After that group buy I think many members would agree :)
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As long as I can access it with my trigger finger for both catch and release I don't care. I would say the lower the profile the better though.
+1
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Anything would be better than me welding a piece of metal onto my current bho. Also must make sure these work with VZ 2008's.
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I will state this again, we are not going to make magazines for teh VZ58.
You can get surplus mags at Apexgunparts for $20 each when you buy four.
The cost of the tooling would far, far, far outweigh what we could ever recoup on sales. Multi stage stamping dies plus the welding would easily exceed $100,000 in tooling. Same for molds a polymer only magazine- $50,000-$80,000 in just tooling.
Thats easy enough to understand. A VZ version of the MA-11200 Keymod AK handguard you guys posted on face book today would be uber and I'd take 2
BA
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I don't feel a need for a windage adjustable rear sights.
A fuller mod rear sight would be great and something that could fabricated quite easily. Adding tritium inserts to it would be awesome as well.
Tritium front sight would be good too, but it always seem to be a night sight/daytime accuracy tradeoff there on everything except Galils and some Yugos. Actually, modding VZ front sight blocks to incorporate a Yugo or Galil type flip up sight would be great.
I don't see an immediate need for rear windage adjustable but it's certainly an option...
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I would like to see some more flexible stock options personally. It would be great to maybe see a version of the Manticore triangle stock designed to attach directly to the receiver without the use of a receiver block, maybe even with a folding hinge built in. I know that this can be done with a combination of receiver blocks, but it adds cost, length, and to be honest to me it just looks ugly and inelegant. Something that is connected to that is a AR15 style buffer tube that also connects directly to the receiver.
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AK mag adapter. :) I can dream, can't I?
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AK mag adapter. :) I can dream, can't I?
This would be awesome. Probably impossible, but awesome.
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You can run AK mags but have to change the rear locking tab location... Don't think there's enough room for an adapter though.
Some other ideas:
Some sort of poly overlay for the fixed stock -- allen key or other clamp on -- but sold polymer or recoil pads for an extension/length of pull vs standard folding. That's basically what the Czech military modern one is too: http://www.vz58rifle.com/products/sklopna-pazba-255mm/
(http://files.vz58rifle.com/200000114-34908358a0/stock_ars.jpg)
For fixed stocks -- a recoil pad that's customized too them would be great too -- adding a couple inches to length of pull, or perhaps even a couple different recoil pad lengths for a more customized length of pull. Like the ACE stocks...
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maybe a Pic rail mounted shell deflector. Something that could be mounted to the CSA optic mount, or even better the RS Products AK-304 and an AKR.
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Love this stock. Too bad it cost a fortune... if even available in the US?
You can run AK mags but have to change the rear locking tab location... Don't think there's enough room for an adapter though.
Some other ideas:
Some sort of poly overlay for the fixed stock -- allen key or other clamp on -- but sold polymer or recoil pads for an extension/length of pull vs standard folding. That's basically what the Czech military modern one is too: http://www.vz58rifle.com/products/sklopna-pazba-255mm/
(http://files.vz58rifle.com/200000114-34908358a0/stock_ars.jpg)
For fixed stocks -- a recoil pad that's customized too them would be great too -- adding a couple inches to length of pull, or perhaps even a couple different recoil pad lengths for a more customized length of pull. Like the ACE stocks...
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Love this stock. Too bad it cost a fortune... if even available in the US?
You can run AK mags but have to change the rear locking tab location... Don't think there's enough room for an adapter though.
Some other ideas:
Some sort of poly overlay for the fixed stock -- allen key or other clamp on -- but sold polymer or recoil pads for an extension/length of pull vs standard folding. That's basically what the Czech military modern one is too: http://www.vz58rifle.com/products/sklopna-pazba-255mm/
(http://files.vz58rifle.com/200000114-34908358a0/stock_ars.jpg)
For fixed stocks -- a recoil pad that's customized too them would be great too -- adding a couple inches to length of pull, or perhaps even a couple different recoil pad lengths for a more customized length of pull. Like the ACE stocks...
I actually love that stock too.
No guarantees, but I already had some ideas on how we might make something similar. :)
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I actually love that stock too.
No guarantees, but I already had some ideas on how we might make something similar. :)
Glad to hear it. I'm sure if it's a clamp on (easiest install I can imagine) using the existing stock, it'd be very quickly adopted. And then "recoil pads" of varying length that can be easily attached and not look like crap (the AK grenadier pad a lot of use is function but doesn't look the best...).
Be aware that there are two gens of the stock (earlier and much less common one having rivets before the stock pad portion), but otherwise they should be identical in dimensions. And my understanding of that Czech one I posted pictures of is that the outside is just overmolded over the factory folding stock we have already -- and that's why it utilizes the same hinge connection.
And the grand finale on this -- after stock molding and pad -- would be a cheek riser of sort... I'd be happy with a clamp on and generally feel that non-adjustable provide a firmer purchase than the adjustable, but would be happy to have either...
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I actually love that stock too.
No guarantees, but I already had some ideas on how we might make something similar. :)
Glad to hear it. I'm sure if it's a clamp on (easiest install I can imagine) using the existing stock, it'd be very quickly adopted. And then "recoil pads" of varying length that can be easily attached and not look like crap (the AK grenadier pad a lot of use is function but doesn't look the best...).
Be aware that there are two gens of the stock (earlier and much less common one having rivets before the stock pad portion), but otherwise they should be identical in dimensions. And my understanding of that Czech one I posted pictures of is that the outside is just overmolded over the factory folding stock we have already -- and that's why it utilizes the same hinge connection.
And the grand finale on this -- after stock molding and pad -- would be a cheek riser of sort... I'd be happy with a clamp on and generally feel that non-adjustable provide a firmer purchase than the adjustable, but would be happy to have either...
A two piece polymer overmold that bolts on to the existing metal folder is exactly what we are working on right now- the metal stock is very sturdy and has a great hinge mechanism, all we need to do is "bulk it out" a bit on the strut and correct the buttpad shape to make it more comfortable and ergonomic. An adjustable cheek piece should be pretty easy to incorporate into that design.
Thankfully we have a a lot of experience with small run molding, and have a few tricks to hopefully make such a thing affordable. :)
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A two piece polymer overmold that bolts on to the existing metal folder is exactly what we are working on right now- the metal stock is very sturdy and has a great hinge mechanism, all we need to do is "bulk it out" a bit on the strut and correct the buttpad shape to make it more comfortable and ergonomic. An adjustable cheek piece should be pretty easy to incorporate into that design.
Thankfully we have a a lot of experience with small run molding, and have a few tricks to hopefully make such a thing affordable. :)
Cool beans! Curious -- how would this assembly affect 922r?
FWIW, I think the cheek riser as a bolt on makes more sense just b/c if you offer stock pads for varying length of pull (forward and back distance) and due to the 1-2" difference (depending on how folks mount weapon, hold heads, which optic rail they're using, etc; up and down difference) -- between the two, that's a lot of variability that's hard to control for. I really like the old Galil/FAL command arms cheek riser (they discontiued and pretty much unobtanium today except for one vendor with a handful -- another item to consider fabbing for the Galil crowd [I'm one of those eccentrics too...]):
(http://images2.opticsplanet.com/755-405-ffffff/opplanet-caa-cheek-piece-for-fal-falc.jpg)
(http://images2.opticsplanet.com/755-405-ffffff/opplanet-caa-cheek-piece-for-fal-falc-2.jpg)
(http://store.a51tactical.com/images/falc%20on%20gun.jpg)
But something like this for whatever stock you fab up would be solid and awesome. Perhaps a riser pad for folks running really high or really long stocks (presumably the length due to differing pad length offerings).
ICS makes an adjustable airsoft galil version cheek rest that isn't half bad either...
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YAY! Just purchased my second vz2008 (last of the 5 mag deal from PSA). Wife wasn't thrilled, but it really was a great deal.
My first I've got very original. Can't wait to modernize the new one with will all the Manticore Arms accessories - that should please the missus even more, LOL.
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YES!! Thank you Manticore Arms for taking on these accessories for us! I've been extremely frustrated as to the lack of good parts and affordable parts in the U.S.
Please consider producing an extended handguard. Something that covers much more of the barrel and lets the shooter bring his hand or rest on barricades further out toward the muzzle.
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OK, been looking at a few things and needs some feedback. It looks like we can go one of two ways on a top cover for a handguard:
1. Superlow picatinny gas tube that allows you to co-witness an Aimpoint Micro and similar sized optics.
2. A higher top rail that is continuous from the front of the gas tube to right before the rear dust cover (i.e. would cantilever back over the open bolt area). There would be a cutout in the top rail so you could leave your rear iron sight installed, and you could probably use the irons without an optic mounted, but the irons would not be visible if an optic was attached to the rail. Of course a Quick Detach optics mount for your optic would solve that issue.
Let me know which way you would prefer.
FYI, doing a full top rail from stem to stern is complicated as it has to easily be removable for pulling the top cover and bolt carrier group for cleaning and maintenance. Thus far I have not come up with a satisfactory way to accomplish that which I believe will hold zero well.
Thankfully, I am working on just such a thing for the AK for a client, so if we come up with a good method it is likely that the concept might work on the VZ58 as well. But only time will tell right now if that ends up being a workable solution. ;)
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If you want your rear cover and front upper handguard to cowitness, you can't use a low rail that would cowitness w/ irons that would also be on same level as railed receiver top cover...
Personally, what I would most like to see is just a railed receiver cover, in two versions.
The first roughly same dimensions as stock receiver cover, just w/ a rail. And the second a longer that engages w/ (EDIT:) rear edge of rear sight block and also incorporates some sort of brass deflector to allow a scope to extend across the full length...
So for those two, you have no domestic competition and are not competing w/ investments folks already made in forends...
For instance, the Mako polymer forends are only $60 and are at a price level where you really can't compete. But if you made your rear rail covers at a height that lines up with those and then also made a separate two piece forend out of aluminum that did the same (one company out of Ohio makes an upper, but not an upper and a lower -- I like and need a railed lower more than upper...), you'd have much higher profitability IMO...
Conceptually, I get the utility of a one piece rail, but if I'm losing my iron sights and completely changing the aesthetics of the rifle, a lot of folks/enthusiasts won't be interested.
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Personally, what I would most like to see is just a railed receiver cover, in two versions.
The first roughly same dimensions as stock receiver cover, just w/ a rail. And the second a longer that engages w/ front sight block and also incorporates some sort of brass deflector to allow a scope to extend across the full length...
Conceptually, I get the utility of a one piece rail, but if I'm losing my iron sights and completely changing the aesthetics of the rifle, a lot of the enthusiasts a lot of folks won't be interested.
+1 ^^^^
I think that full length rail makes the vz blocky and ugly looking.
The affordable rear cover with deflector would allow me to mount a real scope for more precision that what I can get out of a red-dot. Of all of the options mentioned in this thread that is the one item that I would really be interested in.
I have an AR if I feel the need to have rails hanging off from every surface. The vz is so light, handy and good looking it seems a shame to "trash it up".
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Clarified my original remarks above.
The reason for the receiver top cover and forend being in line from my understanding was for the ability to add stuff like magnifiers and night vision in-line across the top...
Also, in addition to the cheap competition, those who have spent $300 or so on the FAB aluminum or B&T rails, would also be able to utilize your products as well w/o having to remove their current setup in entirety...
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Thanks for the clarification and input. Good points all around!
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You bet.
And depending on the height of your rails, putting that groove notch down the center would most definitely ensure that irons could still be used.
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Receiver Cover with Picatinny rail.
Magazine
Cheek rest for paratrooper folding stock
Pistol Grip
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Any updates?
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Sven has stated there likely won't be any product till sometime in 2015.
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I like option 1, except one that works with an affordable reflex sight (Burris Fastfire, Redfield Accelerator, etc.) Maybe this can be achieved with a pic rail. Maybe it will need a proprietary mount to match the base of each optic. Maybe you could make the top of the handguard flat with dowel pin holes, dowel pins, and screw holes in the guard, so that it would universally work with a handful of reflex sights.
OK, been looking at a few things and needs some feedback. It looks like we can go one of two ways on a top cover for a handguard:
1. Superlow picatinny gas tube that allows you to co-witness an Aimpoint Micro and similar sized optics.
2. A higher top rail that is continuous from the front of the gas tube to right before the rear dust cover (i.e. would cantilever back over the open bolt area). There would be a cutout in the top rail so you could leave your rear iron sight installed, and you could probably use the irons without an optic mounted, but the irons would not be visible if an optic was attached to the rail. Of course a Quick Detach optics mount for your optic would solve that issue.
Let me know which way you would prefer.
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Shell deflector and charge handle for the Tavor, similar to the ones you make for the Aug. :)
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Hey now, don't be distracting Sven from our wonderful vz.58 with your Tavor silliness! ;)
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A bolt release would be awesome
I would prefer a quality check riser over an overmold bolt on for the stock
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I'm surprised that ambi-safety didn't get more traction. The one that is out there doesn't work on any three of my rifles (VZ2008, VZ58 rifle, VZ58 pistol) due to the US FCG. Also some option for a left hand charging handle. Even if it's just a handle that needs to be drilled and tapped. I haven't exhaustively looked for a suitable knob for left charging, but I haven't stumbled across anything either.
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I'm surprised that ambi-safety didn't get more traction. The one that is out there doesn't work on any three of my rifles (VZ2008, VZ58 rifle, VZ58 pistol) due to the US FCG. Also some option for a left hand charging handle. Even if it's just a handle that needs to be drilled and tapped. I haven't exhaustively looked for a suitable knob for left charging, but I haven't stumbled across anything either.
Only one Czech manufacturer that does drilled and bolt carriers are now barred from export except w/ special import/export permits due to some new EU rule... You can see most of the parts that we can no longer order by comparing product availability on VZ58rifle.com's Czech and US language sites. It's still possible to get them, just much more of a hassle as some bureaucrat has to approve.
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Sven has stated there likely won't be any product till sometime in 2015.
Correct, right now we are running full out and have some contracts we are fulfilling. Once we get caught up a bit I will focus more on the VZ58 products.
I have a few sketches for concepts, but nothing I want to show yet.
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Manticore_Arms, I'm assuming this is Sven, but I know how that goes... you should let Tim know that you are looking into goodies for the vz.58... I don't think he ever sold his off, and you know how much MAC loves to play with new toys! Also maybe look into working with Horse from RS Products on some kind of a bolt on shell deflector... His side rail is, IMO, the best there is for the VZ.
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Manticore_Arms, I'm assuming this is Sven, but I know how that goes... you should let Tim know that you are looking into goodies for the vz.58... I don't think he ever sold his off, and you know how much MAC loves to play with new toys! Also maybe look into working with Horse from RS Products on some kind of a bolt on shell deflector... His side rail is, IMO, the best there is for the VZ.
I know both Tim and Josh very well.
Once I get some prototypes worked out I will certainly be showing them to Tim for some feedback, and a video review once we have real parts ready. :)
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I was going to suggest a video by Tim as well. His video of the VZ is why I own one.
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I'm surprised that ambi-safety didn't get more traction. The one that is out there doesn't work on any three of my rifles (VZ2008, VZ58 rifle, VZ58 pistol) due to the US FCG. Also some option for a left hand charging handle. Even if it's just a handle that needs to be drilled and tapped. I haven't exhaustively looked for a suitable knob for left charging, but I haven't stumbled across anything either.
Agreed, but then I suppose not all civilians have the same accountability/strictness with safeties as do current and former military...
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I'm surprised that ambi-safety didn't get more traction. The one that is out there doesn't work on any three of my rifles (VZ2008, VZ58 rifle, VZ58 pistol) due to the US FCG. Also some option for a left hand charging handle. Even if it's just a handle that needs to be drilled and tapped. I haven't exhaustively looked for a suitable knob for left charging, but I haven't stumbled across anything either.
Agreed, but then I suppose not all civilians have the same accountability/strictness with safeties as do current and former military...
I never use the safeties, on any of my firearms. Safe is mag out, action open. Otherwise if has a round chambered I'm seconds within firing it or its a pistol and is in a holster with the trigger guard covered. So I never use the safety on my VZ. Thats just me I guess.
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I never use the safeties, on any of my firearms. Safe is mag out, action open. Otherwise if has a round chambered I'm seconds within firing it or its a pistol and is in a holster with the trigger guard covered. So I never use the safety on my VZ. Thats just me I guess.
Yep, civilian and military safety needs are very different. Most civilians shoot in scenarios where safeties are less essential. A lot of military doctrine, even in special forces, is that weapon should be on safe and finger off trigger until the moment you're ready/need to engage...
The ambi safety allows for this type of manipulation to be a little easier. Though the safety location isn't perfect it is serviceable. And rotating it with your thumb rather than trigger finger should reduce time to firing for most individuals.
VZ2008s with their taller receiver ledge do require removing some of that ledge material around the lower half of the receiver hole which isn't ideal... Not sure how to configure otherwise...
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VZ2008s with their taller receiver ledge do require removing some of that ledge material around the lower half of the receiver hole which isn't ideal... Not sure how to configure otherwise...
I'm sure Manticore will be able to get this figured out without modding the receiver.
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Agree, you could probably do it by making a VZ2008 specific ambi safety -- it would have to be longer and have some sort of semi circle piece that sat atop the ledge. It's just not ideal making a different part for each type of receiver variance when you could just make one...
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Hey, just checking in guys, didn't want you to think I forgot about the VZ parts! :)
We have two major projects (multi product contract work for OEM applications) we are working on right now that are eating up all my design time, so as I said it may be a little bit before I can get to this. That being said, as soon as I get some design time I can get a Keymod lower handgaurd knocked out pretty quick and then the optics mount top rail.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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Hey, just checking in guys, didn't want you to think I forgot about the VZ parts! :)
We have two major projects (multi product contract work for OEM applications) we are working on right now that are eating up all my design time, so as I said it may be a little bit before I can get to this. That being said, as soon as I get some design time I can get a Keymod lower handgaurd knocked out pretty quick and then the optics mount top rail.
Sven
Manticore Arms
Good to hear you busy. Say you in a MAC video the other day. Keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
BA
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Got some bits and pieces showing up to the shop in the next week so we can start looking at these products in earnest.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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That's good news, Sven. I've got my second vz2008 in the closet waiting for some upgrades! Can't wait to see what you guys turn out.
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Awesome news Sven!!!
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Looking forward to seeing the designs. If it's a nice looking, high quality part, it will sell. But hopefully something more reasonable than the current choices!!
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Got some bits and pieces showing up to the shop in the next week so we can start looking at these products in earnest.
Sven
Manticore Arms
That's great news Sven, off topic but just want to thank you for the great ease of ordering from your site. Finally your TCB were in stock and snatched one up before they were gone...as we speak "0". ordered on the 27th sent out on the 29th with tracking number. Will definately order again...thanks
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Got some bits and pieces showing up to the shop in the next week so we can start looking at these products in earnest.
Sven
Manticore Arms
That's great news Sven, off topic but just want to thank you for the great ease of ordering from your site. Finally your TCB were in stock and snatched one up before they were gone...as we speak "0". ordered on the 27th sent out on the 29th with tracking number. Will definately order again...thanks
No prob, and the fast shipping is thanks to our Shipping Manager Kristen. She insists that everything should be shipped within 24 hours if at all possible!
Sven
Manticore Arms
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If not the whole new 30 round mag - maybe floor plates and followers that are 922 compliant (of the more reliable metal variety)?
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Mags won't happen.
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I'd be happy with US metal mag floor plates....
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Any progress updates?
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Honestly I have not even had a chance to work on anything yet for the VZ58. :(
been putting in 12 hour days 6-7 days a week and had to hire a new employee just to keep up with current demand, and also have been scouting for a larger location as we are outgrowing our current shop.
We are trying to shift a lot of the day to day workload that I get tangled up in off of me and on to others so I can focus on design, but it will be a bit before that all gets sorted out. Price of success I guess. ;)
Sven
Manticore Arms
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Honestly I have not even had a chance to work on anything yet for the VZ58. :(
been putting in 12 hour days 6-7 days a week and had to hire a new employee just to keep up with current demand, and also have been scouting for a larger location as we are outgrowing our current shop.
We are trying to shift a lot of the day to day workload that I get tangled up in off of me and on to others so I can focus on design, but it will be a bit before that all gets sorted out. Price of success I guess. ;)
Sven
Manticore Arms
:( I was a watching and a waiting and a hoping for the best, No love.
Good to hear your business is going well though.
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Honestly I have not even had a chance to work on anything yet for the VZ58. :(
been putting in 12 hour days 6-7 days a week and had to hire a new employee just to keep up with current demand, and also have been scouting for a larger location as we are outgrowing our current shop.
We are trying to shift a lot of the day to day workload that I get tangled up in off of me and on to others so I can focus on design, but it will be a bit before that all gets sorted out. Price of success I guess. ;)
Sven
Manticore Arms
:( I was a watching and a waiting and a hoping for the best, No love.
Good to hear your business is going well though.
Sorry man, I know that in the consumer world 2 or 3 months seems like a lifetime when you want new product, but in the manufacturing world that is the blink of an eye.
On the upside, I have some stuff sketched out, and we are gaining ground on some of the backlog of work with our new employee- he is a very fast learner, so hopefully we can get moving forward to some of these side projects.
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Honestly I have not even had a chance to work on anything yet for the VZ58. :(
been putting in 12 hour days 6-7 days a week and had to hire a new employee just to keep up with current demand, and also have been scouting for a larger location as we are outgrowing our current shop.
We are trying to shift a lot of the day to day workload that I get tangled up in off of me and on to others so I can focus on design, but it will be a bit before that all gets sorted out. Price of success I guess. ;)
Sven
Manticore Arms
:( I was a watching and a waiting and a hoping for the best, No love.
Good to hear your business is going well though.
Sorry man, I know that in the consumer world 2 or 3 months seems like a lifetime when you want new product, but in the manufacturing world that is the blink of an eye.
On the upside, I have some stuff sketched out, and we are gaining ground on some of the backlog of work with our new employee- he is a very fast learner, so hopefully we can get moving forward to some of these side projects.
Good to hear guys. Busy is good. :)
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Alright guys, it isn't a rail system, safety, or bolt release quite yet, but...
I love the length and compactness of the folding stock on the VZ58, but it is bleeped uncomfortable on the cheek and on the shoulder. I whipped this up as a concept- aluminum with a rubber buttpad. Bolts on to a Stormwerkz or ACE hinge, has the same length of pull, weighs the same as a the OEM folding stock.
The holes on the side of the stock body are threaded for bolts which allow for an adjustable kydex cheekpiece to be attached, so whether you use a straight or angled Stormwerkz stock adapter you can get the cheekrest heigh and angle you want.
No idea on price quite yet but wanted to get some feedback before going any farther. :)
Sven
Manticore Arms
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Dawg180/MA-5155020715rubberpad.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/Dawg180/media/MA-5155020715rubberpad.jpg.html)
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OMG I love it!
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I like it.
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I like but, why not try to make something that just bolts on to the VZ directly (without the need for adapters)? When you add the Stormworks adapter, then the folding adapter, then finally the stock....it just doesn't look right to me. Ymmv.
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Looks good, I was liking the idea of a piece that attached and bulked up the stock folder.
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Nice looking stock. If the bolt hole size & spacing work with Stormwerks and ACE, you will broaden your market potential... But I'm sure you already realize that.
Northeastern Arms used to have a cantilevered rail that sat on a Troy AR stock adapter. I still think this is an awesome arrangement. I don't think it would take much to make something like this, but more like an extended Stormwerks adapter (the one with a row of 10-32 holes that works with ACE modular stocks).
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Aesthetically it looks great.
But I'll echo others' comments here though that if you were able to manufacture something that encased the existing folding stock, you'd expand your customer base considerably once recognizing the adapter hinge are $100+ items before moving to stocks (and that's before the fitting and other issues folks have had w/ some of the aftermarket stock adapters -- and money that might be better spent with you on other innovative VZ58 products you bring to market ;D ). And then w/ stocks requiring the adapters you'd be competing w/ a variety of other manufacturers too... Whether that's allen key clamps (preferred) or even drilling holes through the middle of the I beam, either would be preferable to me over doubling the cost of the stock w/ adapters and whatnot too...
So except for requiring the adapters and assuming that you'll have a few different widths of stock pads, I think this is certainly an improvement over most current options.
Or you could even design something that tied in into the receiver side of the VZ58's existing hinge. And then just supply a new hinge pin, nut, and spring w/ the rifle (since removing that nut sometimes crossthreads the threads since it's staked).
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Nice looking stock. If the bolt hole size & spacing work with Stormwerks and ACE, you will broaden your market potential... But I'm sure you already realize that.
Northeastern Arms used to have a cantilevered rail that sat on a Troy AR stock adapter. I still think this is an awesome arrangement. I don't think it would take much to make something like this, but more like an extended Stormwerks adapter (the one with a row of 10-32 holes that works with ACE modular stocks).
That cantilever mount was actually 2 primary pieces -- the cantilever rail that goes over the top cover (but needed removed to remove the top cover), and an AR stock adapter that had a rail on the top of it as well (what the cantilever rail bolted to). The biggest advantage of that rail in my book is for a longer sight radius and opening up a lot more options for iron sights than you have w/ stock...
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I like the looks, but I also thought the whole point of you getting a vz2008 was to design accessories for that actual rifle.
I don't like the need for an adapter before I can use your product. Those items already exist on the market, and I thought we were getting some vz2008 specific pieces.
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I won't buy one.
The need to buy a $50.00 adapter and then the stock takes it out of consideration for me. I am not an "accessorizer" like some folks,,,, I will replace parts if it improves the function, but I don't replace parts just because they are cool or trendy or to have something to brag about on the web.
If you make an affordable replacement folder that mounts to my vz2008, I would probably buy it.
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I like the looks, but I also thought the whole point of you getting a vz2008 was to design accessories for that actual rifle.
I don't like the need for an adapter before I can use your product. Those items already exist on the market, and I thought we were getting some vz2008 specific pieces.
I agree with this opinion. I would not want to be dependent on an adapter from a third party to install on my weapon. Too many variables. Either fit to the existing hinge or provide a hinge/stock configuration to fit. I realize the market may be too small given that there may be minor variations between the hinge mounting on the VZ58 and all the VZ2000's and VZ2008's out there.
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Add me to the no adapter camp. There are plenty of options if you're going to use an adapter. I like the design, though.
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Agree with the general thought pattern here. Something that does not require an adapter is what I would be interested in as well. Because they charge too much for a simple adapter. I'd rather see a $20 adapter hit the market than another stock design.
I haven't really tried the folder yet, other than firing for function. I'm going to work on it today to pad it and wrap it, then see how it does. If I don't like it, I guess I'll buy the straight adapter, buffer tube, and a Magpul CTR stock with cheek riser.
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OK guys, I am tracking you. I don't necessarily understand the bias against the Stormwerkz hinge and adapter, but I will keep in mind that more VZ58 specific parts are what the small but rabid VZ owners are looking for.
Will probably be a bit before anything purely VZ58 specific is ready to go.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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The 100 bucks for adapter and folding mechanism stings, To much.
I have owned the stormerks buffer tube adapter, it worked but I dont understand why it didn't use the stock screw and threaded part of the receiver. Sold it, would not buy again.
Also I am intirely sure that the removel of the stock folders on my new vz2008's will/would be a giant pain. using the hinge already provided and SECURELY attached to these rifles Would be a huge added value.
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Not a bias against the function but a bias against the cost. A good stock will run $100+. The hinge setups are all $100+ as well. So that's a $200+ investment. And I think folks are generally happy w/ the stormwerkz adapter plus aftermarket stock availability but since the stormwerkz requires a dremel and fitting on a lot of guns (a pita and a trip to the gunsmith for a lot of folks... +another $100), it's pretty stiff a barrier to entry.
And the total cost of a stock setup being $200+ for existing options other than the polymer fab (~$120) and the OE wood/beaver fixed stock ones (~$100 these days, plus $20 UTG or Apex butt pad extension) which is the mid price point. Even the czech aftermarket folding hinge mechanism to install the OE fixed stocks as folding runs $120+.
And then the budget is keeping the I bar folder and wrapping it w/ padding/paracord and then using a buttpad for less than $40 all in if you don't have any items on hand...
Since the OE hinge mechanism is perfectly robust and works well, I don't think it necessarily needs to be replaced (by not R&R you save any potential receiver to adapter and other fitting issues too -- just screw off and screw on essentially for the hinge pin nut).
And if you can come in with a mid-level price point (you could sell your stocks at the same price as others in the $100 range, yours just wouldn't require an adapter and hinge) with steel internals, you'd really have differentiated yourself in the market. I think the fab stock is ugly and just have been unable to subscribe... But I think their pricepoint of ~$120 is the ballpark you should aim to bring your stock to market at fully installed however it is you design it all to come together... If really unique/spectacular, I'd think you could probably not loose many customers if you keep it under $150, but beyond that I would suspect you'll have a significantly smaller customer base just due to cost.
Lastly, please recall that folks are buying the VZ2008s @ ~$300 once accounting for the value of accessories... And somewhat like the AK mentality w/ furniture, convincing folks to spend more on the stock than they did the gun is a tough sell. The forend is the same story, but due to heat that's kind of a "have to" if you plan to shoot your gun a lot... And the fab polymer is the midprice option there and probably moves a lot of units.
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Thinking further. You could do a universal like you have designed, and then just a design a hinge plate for it to screw into that connects to the receiver side of the existing hinge... That way you have a "universal stock" if you're worried about limiting your market too much with that production and could do smaller runs of a hinge plate... Just thinking out loud.
And then you have two products... But devil's advocate, by selling as two separate pieces, you're also potentially losing some of the VZ58 market for folks that decide to run an ace or whatever on your hinge plate... And conceptually since stocks sell @ higher costs it's probably also a higher profit product than the hinge plate...
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The design he currently has looks like it would work over the factory stock. Just make the top tube and butt pad area larger. Have it be a two piece and the butt pad area can help good it together in addition to some bolts or similar along the side
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I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:
Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S. made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country.
The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.
Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S.
If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58. It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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I do not own any of your products Sven but I recognize you from the AK world. At face value I think this forum only contacts a small subset of VZ58 owners. A 400$ rifle is also likely to SOMEtimes attract the value concious buyers, so the value customer most likely will not buy top quality semi custom components that you mill, test, and sell.
But there are a wide variety of owners in the VZ gun owner subset. The vz2008 has the markets attention right now, but purists for example that buy Czekpoints will be a natural market for your accessories.
I have no problem putting accessoris on my vz2008 that cost as much as the gun because due to market forces I realize this gun is abnormally cheap. The VZ2008 is a "hih value" buy. Its a gun that should cost more but doesnt, awesome! If arsenal AK's were $375 the value owners would still balk at a 160$ folding stock. While the SBR crews went crazy with them.
The VZ world is n need of handguard options, extended bolt and mag releases. How about something crazy like a clip on magazine extender? Its hard to compete with the surplus mags, nobody has competed successfully yet.
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I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:
Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S. made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country.
The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.
Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S.
If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58. It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part.
Sven
Manticore Arms
Sven:
After hanging out here on this forum for about a year, I can tell you there are value mindsets at far extremes. Some are happy to put a 250 stock on their CSA VZ58 that cost them $1000+. Yet others who found their way here after aquiring a $400 PSA deal feel spending is based on what the cost of the part is compared as a percentage of the cost of the original rifle (e.g. "why would I pay $NNN for a quad rail when I only spent $NNN on my rifle.") IMO that is some bizzare logic, but there you have it.
A functional military grade folding stock from FAB Defense with a metal hinge (that was manufactured under license by IMI) costs 350 http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0.)
I personally have no problem spending $250 for a stock, heck a nice set of vintage wood furniture goes for $180-$250.
I personally think your on the correct path with your design. I also like the comments on here regarding the use of the VZ58V wire stock base and designing a hinge to fit it. If I could integrate the EVO 3 S1 stock style design into my VZ58 I certainly think that it would be worth 300.
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I will try to put this as tactfully as possible:
Anyone who thinks they are going to see a U.S. made stock with integral hinge dedicated specifically for the VZ-58 for less than $100-$150 is probably either fooling themselves or does not understand the cost of current U.S. manufacturing vs. the cost of 50 year old surplus parts from a Eastern Bloc country.
The $59 folding surplus stock you see on the VZ-58 would be $150-$200 to manufacture here in the U.S. right now.
Also the only reason PSA can sell the guns for $399 is that is blowout pricing on a gun that was also built on parts kits which cost Century around $35-$50 to bring in into the U.S.
If the costs are too high for some I completely understand, but I am starting to sense there might be a reality gap on what the cost of a product is for the VZ58. It may be that I assessed the market incorrectly on my part.
Sven
Manticore Arms
Sven:
After hanging out here on this forum for about a year, I can tell you there are value mindsets at far extremes. Some are happy to put a 250 stock on their CSA VZ58 that cost them $1000+. Yet others who found their way here after aquiring a $400 PSA deal feel spending is based on what the cost of the part is compared as a percentage of the cost of the original rifle (e.g. "why would I pay $NNN for a quad rail when I only spent $NNN on my rifle.") IMO that is some bizzare logic, but there you have it.
A functional military grade folding stock from FAB Defense with a metal hinge (that was manufactured under license by IMI) costs 350 http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/UAS-VZ-FAB-Defense-FOLDING-BUTTSTOCK-W-CHEEK-PIECE-METAL-JOINT-/390946385328?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06386db0.)
I personally have no problem spending $250 for a stock, heck a nice set of vintage wood furniture goes for $180-$250.
I personally think your on the correct path with your design. I also like the comments regarding the use of the VZ58V wire stock base and designing a hing to fit it. If I could integrate the EVO 3 S1 stock style design into my VZ58 I would certainly think that was worth 300.
I suspect that your are right, the Century VZ's and the Czechpoints seem to create a dual price structure market.
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I think RSR and Enthusiam are on the right track, but needs some tweaking. The idea of using the existing VZ folder hinge mechanism is a good one. Make the stock as you envisioned to fit whatever adapters are already out there. Then make an adapter plate that attaches to the new stock and replaces the folding part of the existing VZ stock leaving the non-pivoting part still attached to the receiver. Just need a new nut because removing the original usually wrecks it. Best of both worlds, affordable replacement stock and affordable adapter plate.
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Ambidextrous safety, and a replacement screw for the folding stock that is broached for an Allen wrench - metric or imperial, I don't care. Geezus, I hate... HATE slotted hardware.
Here's a nugget - take a standard 30 round mag. Put a floorplate in it part way up so that it holds 5 rounds. The remaining bottom part of the mag has a hinged floorplate & can be used for storage. Call it the "last chance mag". Put a red skull & crossbones on it or something.
How about a universal adapter to make use of the bayonet fixture thingy... Bipod attachment, light or laser, adapter to use other bayonets.
Bolt carrier with threaded holes on both sides (1/4-28?) to accept different handle/s. Then upsell this with a few different charging handles.
Hmmm... The beaver barf stock is already hollow. How about different butt pads to customize length, AND incorporate storage? Mine's too short, no storage, and I gotta use a phillips to remove it.
Final one - plug replace beaver barf stock sling swivel with qr hole type (bonesteel rail has this).
Okay I'm done for now, good night.
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Fab and ACE in my book would be your primary competitors. ACE run ~$90. w/ folder run ~$140. Personally, a Galil was my first rifle so I lean to the ACE stocks... Top of the line magpul stocks wholesale almost entirely under $100...
Cost-consciousness is why I suggested a shell for the existing folder. Presumably plastic/polymer would be the cheapest to manufacture plus varying lengths of rubber buttpads... And still meeting all the voids of the market...
I also think a universal stock hinge mechanism to mesh w/ existing folder would be pretty awesome -- the OE folders are almost entirely on century guns...
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Ambidextrous safety, and a replacement screw for the folding stock that is broached for an Allen wrench - metric or imperial, I don't care. Geezus, I hate... HATE slotted hardware.
The one Czechpoint sells is an allen key (somewhere there is a post on these boards stating that they just haven't updated the picture)... The same item is available from the Czech Republic if it's not in stock at Czechpoint...
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(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Dawg180/MA-5155020715rubberpad.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/Dawg180/media/MA-5155020715rubberpad.jpg.html)
Finally had a chance to look for the stock that this originally brought to mind -- the DPH Skeleton Stock: http://dpharms.com/products/ak-47_furniture/dph_arms_aluminum_stock_for_ace_skeleton_style_st0ck_systems.html
(http://dpharms.com/images/ace_stock_resized.jpg)
$69.99
DPH Original Skeleton Stock for all Saigas and AK47s. Machined from solid aluminum billet, oxide blasted and hard anodized. This stock is the strongest and highest quality skeleton stock available. Bolts on to all Receiver Blocks and the Tromix weld on back plate. A Folding Mechanism can be added to easily fold your stock to one side. Made in the USA and counts for 1 US compliant part Stock is 9 inches long and weighs 8ozs. NOTE: This stock requires that the FCG has been moved forward of factory setup for use on all Saiga rifles and shotguns. Manufactured by DPH Arms
But looking at it now, I also get flavors of the ACE Socom:
(http://riflestocks.com/store/media/imges/ss_size1/A150-M4S-1.jpg)
(M4S) ACE M4 SOCOM Stock
Approximately 6 times stronger than an AR15 A-2 stock & receiver extension tube. Ideal for CQB or breaching doors, without the fear of bending the receiver extension tube. Adjustable length of pull, adjusts from 7.5? to 9.5? (standard version) or 9.5? to 11.5? (long version) in five 1/2? increments. Closed cell foam overtube provides an extremely comfortable cheek weld.
SKU: A150/A160
$199.99
Obviously, it also mimics the czech polymer overlay of our folders, which runs about $150 not counting foreign shipping:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8329/8098089157_809c4d1329_z.jpg)
Recognizing these pricepoints and the market being what it is is why I suggested what I did. If you're looking to be more than $150, I think you have to compete w/ the Socom feature set, primarily being adjustable length of pull addition as well as a better cheek riser option...
Instead of a new stock if you focused on rubber buttpads, fasteners, and some injection molded casing, I'd think you'd still have a pretty hefty profit margin at just what others charge for complete stocks -- while still saving your customers 1/2 of where they'd be otherwise due to not needing to buy an separate adapter and hinge... And if you needed to mold around folding stocks/with the stock in the mold, I certainly think a refundable "core" deposit option of an add'l $50 or so dollars would be fair too. Stocks should fit in the $12 USPS priority long version of the medium flat rate box.
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I also wanted to clarify earlier remarks -- with VZ2008s you do have the value buyers but you also have folks that realize how great this weapon system is and how much it can benefit from improvements. And the low pricepoint allows for sufficient funds to quickly implement those upgrades -- provided they are fiscally prudent (think cost-conscious, not "cheap"). It's definitely a different attitude than I see with AKs with most folks that really get to know the system, though there are some that do have the AK attitude, which only serves to limit the effectiveness of their weapon.
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Instead of a new stock if you focused on rubber buttpads, fasteners, and some injection molded casing, I'd think you'd still have a pretty hefty profit margin at just what others charge for complete stocks -- while still saving your customers 1/2 of where they'd be otherwise due to not needing to buy an separate adapter and hinge... And if you needed to mold around folding stocks/with the stock in the mold, I certainly think a refundable "core" deposit option of an add'l $50 or so dollars would be fair too. Stocks should fit in the $12 USPS priority long version of the medium flat rate box.
+10 (added bold)
A nice molded glass impregnated nylon or polymer pistol grip similar (read "exactly") like the CSA or FAB imported grips would be great. I'm really not feeling the Ronin I bought for 922R compliance, might try a Houge Hack Job.
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Instead of a new stock if you focused on rubber buttpads, fasteners, and some injection molded casing, I'd think you'd still have a pretty hefty profit margin at just what others charge for complete stocks -- while still saving your customers 1/2 of where they'd be otherwise due to not needing to buy an separate adapter and hinge... And if you needed to mold around folding stocks/with the stock in the mold, I certainly think a refundable "core" deposit option of an add'l $50 or so dollars would be fair too. Stocks should fit in the $12 USPS priority long version of the medium flat rate box.
+10 (added bold)
A nice molded glass impregnated nylon or polymer pistol grip similar (read "exactly") like the CSA or FAB imported grips would be great. I'm really not feeling the Ronin I bought for 922R compliance, might try a Houge Hack Job.
LOVE how my Houge hack job turned out. Totally worth it.
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The hogue grip sleeve on a ronin grip looks pretty ideal... Just ordered one today actually. (These pics are the mako grip however.)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm268/nclpta/20150117_205616.jpg)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm268/nclpta/Mobile%20Uploads/20150209_172024.jpg)
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=69119.msg480327
Thanks. The grip is a HOGUE HANDALL?FULL SIZE GRIP SLEEVE.
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Instead of a new stock if you focused on rubber buttpads, fasteners, and some injection molded casing, I'd think you'd still have a pretty hefty profit margin at just what others charge for complete stocks -- while still saving your customers 1/2 of where they'd be otherwise due to not needing to buy an separate adapter and hinge... And if you needed to mold around folding stocks/with the stock in the mold, I certainly think a refundable "core" deposit option of an add'l $50 or so dollars would be fair too. Stocks should fit in the $12 USPS priority long version of the medium flat rate box.
+10 (added bold)
A nice molded glass impregnated nylon or polymer pistol grip similar (read "exactly") like the CSA or FAB imported grips would be great. I'm really not feeling the Ronin I bought for 922R compliance, might try a Houge Hack Job.
LOVE how my Houge hack job turned out. Totally worth it.
Well! ;D
I will probably need to start hacking on a Houge grip -- as I have them on at least 3 AK variants in the collection. I tried to put a sleeve in the Ronin and ended up ordering (or receiving) the wrong one so it was too big -- so I put it on a G17. Does anyone know the part number for the Houge sleeve?
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It looks like Black Zuma might have put it on upside down from the pics. Ordered one of the Handall Full Size grip sleeves over the weekend to try out, so can't say. Hogue also makes a tactical grip sleeve (looks like for AR) that might work if the Handall doesn't.
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It looks like Black Zuma might have put it on upside down from the pics. Ordered one of the Handall Full Size grip sleeves over the weekend to try out, so can't say. Hogue also makes a tactical grip sleeve (looks like for AR) that might work if the Handall doesn't.
I PMed Black Zuma and he has the same Houge sleeve as I ordered, but mine it too large on the Ronin grip. I never tried to put it on upside down.
Maybe that's how he got it on without slop left in the back. I'm gonna pry it off the G17 and try putting on the Ronin pistol grip upside down to see how it fits.
BTW I use copious amounts of hand sanitizer as lubricant in the process which just evaporates away -- learned that trick from putting a rubber lined insulating sleeve over a camelback hose which is impossible dry.
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Once I get them I'll try both the mako I have and the ronin. Am getting both the full size and the jr actually. Don't have either the small or the large tactical though which would be the other options there.
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Once I get them I'll try both the mako I have and the ronin. Am getting both the full size and the jr actually. Don't have either the small or the large tactical though which would be the other options there.
Thanks. I'm not loving the Ronin feel -- thats why I was trying the Houge grip cover. which is kinda stupid for me I guess, because the Ronin grip base is more beefy than the FAB and thats one thing I don't like about it.
IMO The FAB grip (and the CSA copy) is FABulous (in my hand), as is the Houge - they got that grip right. They rightly include storage capability for batteries etc. in the grip as well. The Israelis appear to understand the correlation between ergonomics and function better than anyone else.
My driving issue is 922R for the SBR, so FAB and CSA are out.
I can see a "home-made Hoagie handle hack job" in my future if I cant cover the Ronin and get it feeling natural. Ronin also sells a long handle old school vz58 grip I saw, which is certainly a step better than an AK paint brush handle, but just better.
Manticore - are you listening? Injection molding outsource...
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Hey Sven, awesome that you are looking into the VZ platform. First thing I'd love to see from Manticore is your Nightbrake. I've got one on my M92 and it can't be beat. I have to agree with an earlier poster about an AR grip adapter rather than a whole grip. I'll be modding an ACE AK grip adapter in the next few weeks, but I think there would be a market for a VZ specific adapter.
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Other than possibly some NightBrakes and Eclipse flash hiders, all the VZ-58 projects are on hold for right now. Just too much going on to tackle them at the moment. Sorry guys, I hate to disappoint, but would rather be honest than dance around the issue. :-[
Sven
Manticore Arms
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That is too bad but thanks for your honesty. Still waiting for a mold-over solution to the folding steel butt stock. (Don't abandon that, it's a REALLY good idea!)
Please let us know when the Night Brakes become available. If they're competitively priced I'd like to pick one up and see how it performs against my current Slovak-style brake and share the results.
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Other than possibly some NightBrakes and Eclipse flash hiders, all the VZ-58 projects are on hold for right now. Just too much going on to tackle them at the moment. Sorry guys, I hate to disappoint, but would rather be honest than dance around the issue. :-[
Sven
Manticore Arms
( sigh...sadness in the world today...) :(
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Other than possibly some NightBrakes and Eclipse flash hiders, all the VZ-58 projects are on hold for right now.
These muzzle devices are what I'd most like to see. The existing options for the VZ are all sub-par in comparison to these. Put me down for one Nightbrake and one Eclipse.
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Top rail cover then Quad rail.