The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: pntball650 on August 14, 2016, 11:48:50 PM
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I know this has been brought up before and have seen people back and forth saying CZ has/has not changed the polymer in the magazine. I have 12 of the 30 rounders and have only used a couple of them. I am just trying to figure out if I should load all of them up for a while and see if anything happens. However, if nothing has been changed on the magazines I might as well just leave them as is. My only concern is for future legislation which could potentially ban 30 rd mags. Therefore, if they are going to break over time and they have come up with something better I would rather go ahead and load them up and let them sit and see if something happens rather than it randomly happen down the road. Thoughts?
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Buy more mags
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I know this has been brought up before and have seen people back and forth saying CZ has/has not changed the polymer in the magazine. I have 12 of the 30 rounders and have only used a couple of them. I am just trying to figure out if I should load all of them up for a while and see if anything happens. However, if nothing has been changed on the magazines I might as well just leave them as is. My only concern is for future legislation which could potentially ban 30 rd mags. Therefore, if they are going to break over time and they have come up with something better I would rather go ahead and load them up and let them sit and see if something happens rather than it randomly happen down the road. Thoughts?
I'd buy more or load and wait in batches.I currently have 9 mags en route to CZ, and 5 here, 4 of which are broken. 3 of the 9 were replacements CZ had previously sent. Wishing I hadn't left the 5 here loaded over night until I got my 9 back.
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I'm pretty sure I read these magazines weren't designed to be left loaded for extended periods of time. They were meant to be used in battle and left in battle as they're easily replaced.
This firearm is so new to the civilian world still.
I wouldn't be trying to break feed lips by leaving them loaded. Wait until a solid version 2.0 magazine comes out, possibly with reinforced feed lips. Unless you enjoy the gamble. I haven't broken any magazines but I don't load them until it's range time. I do drop them on the ground though.
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.... Wait until a solid version 2.0 magazine comes out, possibly with reinforced feed lips. Unless you enjoy the gamble. I haven't broken any magazines but I don't load them until it's range time. I do drop them on the ground though.
Is there a 2.0 Magazine version being worked on?
My conversations with people at CZ did not leave me with the feeling that they were working on a newer or updated version. Also they were adamant that magazine cracking was a very small percentages they actually said "less than .02%".
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Not that I know of but the aftermarket is growing like crazy for these firearms. CZ seems to be responding well to the civilian market. 1/2 x 28 threads on the 2016 scorpions wasn't just done randomly. People got tired of waiting for 922r stock kits or overpaying for them and then you see CZ Custom releasing adapters for Magpul stocks.
I'm not holding my breath for better magazines but I won't be shocked if someone releases something for us.
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I've kept all my mags loaded since i bought my Scorpion. Out of all my mags, only 1 has shown any cracking. It wasnt that bad, and probably would have functioned fine for a long time. I sent it back the other day though. All mags "should" be designed to stay loaded....what good is an empty mag?! I don't believe CZ designed these to remain unloaded. Since this was developed as primarily a military arm, how often do you think troops issued the Scorpion leave their mags unloaded.....never
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I've kept all my mags loaded since i bought my Scorpion. Out of all my mags, only 1 has shown any cracking. It wasnt that bad, and probably would have functioned fine for a long time. I sent it back the other day though. All mags "should" be designed to stay loaded....what good is an empty mag?! I don't believe CZ designed these to remain unloaded. Since this was developed as primarily a military arm, how often do you think troops issued the Scorpion leave their mags unloaded.....never
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What brand of lube are you using on your scorpion?
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I always keep all my firearm magazines loaded. I am sure that the manufacturer did not intend for you to wait until you need your firearm to begin loading your magazines.
Magazines are a consumable. Sometimes they break and sometimes they get lost. Get a bunch.
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Breakfree CLP and a little Milcomm TW25B grease.
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I was using Militec1. I'm planning to try a non-scientific study with the new mags. I switched to Ballistol Saturday on a hunch. Want to scrub a mag with Militec1, one with Ballistol, and one a virgin. Load and see if oil or lack of makes a difference.
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Loaded about a year, I think, left in CZ black 30 round case, banged around a bit in the Scorpion range bag. Only thing I can see is a couple of teeny dents from being banged around.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20Scorpion/Read%20service%20mags%20behind_zps9q3liach.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/CZ%20Scorpion/Read%20service%20mags%20behind_zps9q3liach.jpg.html)
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There is no reason to load a magazine from a "preservation" standpoint. The only "wear" part of a magazine is the mag spring itself. A spring is a mechanical device subject to work, corrosion, and metal fatigue, in that order.
If you are worried about the "legality" of your magazines, then register to vote, educate yourself, and vote your conscience.
In the interval, see above. If you have a number of magazines with strong springs, then oil and maintain them.
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I have re-read the entire thread, and I understand your concerns a little better now. The concerns about the plastic aren't going to be addressed by keeping them loaded in storage. At least in theory, the breakage would be caused by some combination of poor quality control of the plastic and actual use (insertion/removal, wear of the magazine feed lips during firing, etc.).
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I understand that plastic magazines are cheaper and faster to manufacture while bringing in a lot of profit, but a good steel magazine, or aluminum magazine, or even steel reinforced plastic magazines are always going to be better in the long run, and should also probably outlast a plastic mag 3 to 1.
If someone were to make an affordable metal stick mag for the scorpion, or even perhaps a small drum, CZ would sell very few plastic mags because no one in their right mind would continue buying them. They only have the market cornered on them right now because there isn't an alternative.
But the more popular the scorpion becomes and the more people that complain about junk factory mags, the sooner that a good aftermarket company will realize there is a lot of money to be made and will do it.
Unfortunately, with the upcoming election, and the uncertainty of the future of 2A, manufacturers are leary to undertake such a project right now for fiscal concerns seeing a return on their investment in R&D and molds, and getting tooled up to make them. That's just reality. If it happens at all, it won't be before the election. That much is a given.
The shame of it is that the mag issue is a big reason why I haven't made the jump into the EVO world. If we get Hillary, and if the gun banners are successful, the best case scenario for any sort of ban is another like the Bill Clinton AWB where pre-ban mags were legal but new production were outlawed... I suppose CZ-USA would be able to swap mags for awhile from pre-ban inventory (if they didn't sell them all in the panic before the ban), but that inventory wouldn't last long. Especially when considering that State and/or Customs could shut down future mag imports at any time, at least temporarily if not permanently, regardless of any ban...
Regarding your post -- steel mag cracks can be repaired through welding and dents can be repaired through mag repair blocks, etc. If looking at thin metal IMO stainless mags are the way to go... If allowing for thicker material (EVO polymer is pretty thick), aluminum like the VZ58 mags becomes more appealing...
Metal-polymer hybrid mags are much more robust than straight polymer, but when broken they are are effectively unrepairable... If you can replace eventually, hybrid steel-polymer mags are pretty ideal balance of strength and (light)weight. Polymer also has the added advantage of being more resilient to dents and dings, but that's on account of it being somewhat a more brittle material in that it either bounces or breaks whereas metals dent first, sometimes substantially, before breaking...
I completely agree that the market is primed for some serious innovation in the CZ EVO mag arena. But I think the concern from manufacturers is less about risk and more about the fact that they can run their existing lines around the clock to fulfill the current demand for mag product, without taking any innovations...
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Is that you Rickie?
Well if you want the problem fixed, you have to b!tch about it.
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Hopefully, CZ will fix the issue, or 3rd party will provide solution.
If mags get banned or become extremely hard to find, maybe try useing gap fill super glue?
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I was using Militec1. I'm planning to try a non-scientific study with the new mags. I switched to Ballistol Saturday on a hunch. Want to scrub a mag with Militec1, one with Ballistol, and one a virgin. Load and see if oil or lack of makes a difference.
MILITEC-1 is a plastic corrosive. 1st hand experience. The type of plastic and how much exposure will vary. I only use it for metal on metal contact surfaces (what it was designed for). Hell, even the plastic bottle containing MILITEC-1 is degrading! Simple Green was eating away the paint and aluminum on our blackhawk helicopters. once this was discovered, the army banned it for dermatology safety concerns. every chemical has a specific purpose. once you you start using that chemical outside of its intended purpose/s, you're playing with fire. you won't catch me using antifreeze on my pancakes in the morning
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Not really - here are pictures of the feed lips on my range/practice mag I use a lot.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%203_zps51jw8laj.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%203_zps51jw8laj.jpg.html)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%202_zps5xt9ahce.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%202_zps5xt9ahce.jpg.html)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%204_zpslqv8p6qk.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/CZ%20Scorpion/20%20round%20range%20mag%204_zpslqv8p6qk.jpg.html)
One of the two that came with it when I got it, still going strong. Never left loaded for longer than it took to UNLOAD it, but it's had well north of 2,000 rounds run through it.
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I was using Militec1. I'm planning to try a non-scientific study with the new mags. I switched to Ballistol Saturday on a hunch. Want to scrub a mag with Militec1, one with Ballistol, and one a virgin. Load and see if oil or lack of makes a difference.
MILITEC-1 is a plastic corrosive. 1st hand experience. The type of plastic and how much exposure will vary. I only use it for metal on metal contact surfaces (what it was designed for). Hell, even the plastic bottle containing MILITEC-1 is degrading! Simple Green was eating away the paint and aluminum on our blackhawk helicopters. once this was discovered, the army banned it for dermatology safety concerns. every chemical has a specific purpose. once you you start using that chemical outside of its intended purpose/s, you're playing with fire. you won't catch me using antifreeze on my pancakes in the morning
After 8 years in the Marines, 70+ different firearms, I've never had problems with militec on everything until my suspicions about these CZ mags, which are largely anecdotal at this time.
Please pass the antifreeze.
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I asked CZ USA about keeping magazines loaded - this is their reply:
"You can keep your magazines stored loaded or unloaded, it's up to you. We've seen less than .1% of magazines come back with any issues, and still yet we stand behind them. If anything was to occur we would take care of you."
I'll keep mine ready to go.
BTW its so fun to shoot the Scorpion - but one visit to the range and I've gone through several boxes of ammo...
Here's a good online deal that I recently purchased: 9mm CCI Blazer Brass 1000 Round Case for $225 including shipping from http://ammunitionstore.com/
just under .23 a shot - not bad.
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I was using Militec1. I'm planning to try a non-scientific study with the new mags. I switched to Ballistol Saturday on a hunch. Want to scrub a mag with Militec1, one with Ballistol, and one a virgin. Load and see if oil or lack of makes a difference.
MILITEC-1 is a plastic corrosive. 1st hand experience. The type of plastic and how much exposure will vary. I only use it for metal on metal contact surfaces (what it was designed for). Hell, even the plastic bottle containing MILITEC-1 is degrading! Simple Green was eating away the paint and aluminum on our blackhawk helicopters. once this was discovered, the army banned it for dermatology safety concerns. every chemical has a specific purpose. once you you start using that chemical outside of its intended purpose/s, you're playing with fire. you won't catch me using antifreeze on my pancakes in the morning
After 8 years in the Marines, 70+ different firearms, I've never had problems with militec on everything until my suspicions about these CZ mags, which are largely anecdotal at this time.
Please pass the antifreeze.
That's because in your 8 years in the marines, you're loading aluminum/steel mags into aluminum/steel receivers. Besides, you don't clean a weapon with militec. You use clp or a parts wash bin, then lightly coat your bolt with oil per the training manual. Whether it be m16, m9, m249, m240b, m2, mk19, etc, etc...it's all the same. Why you would want to lube anything other than the parts with metal on metal contract is anyone's guess.
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I know this has been brought up before and have seen people back and forth saying CZ has/has not changed the polymer in the magazine. I have 12 of the 30 rounders and have only used a couple of them. I am just trying to figure out if I should load all of them up for a while and see if anything happens. However, if nothing has been changed on the magazines I might as well just leave them as is. My only concern is for future legislation which could potentially ban 30 rd mags. Therefore, if they are going to break over time and they have come up with something better I would rather go ahead and load them up and let them sit and see if something happens rather than it randomly happen down the road. Thoughts?
For what it's worth, I've kept all 12 of my mags fully loaded since day 1 without any issues. I do rotate my mags though. 8 are setup with 115gr and the other 4 are 147gr
Now, these are all 20 round mags. I've read somewhere on here that cz uses the 30 round mag spring in the 20 round mag thus causing the 20 round mags to fail prematurely. I don't know if that's true, but to me it seems like the 30 rnd mags are having more problems that the 20's
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I was using Militec1. I'm planning to try a non-scientific study with the new mags. I switched to Ballistol Saturday on a hunch. Want to scrub a mag with Militec1, one with Ballistol, and one a virgin. Load and see if oil or lack of makes a difference.
MILITEC-1 is a plastic corrosive. 1st hand experience. The type of plastic and how much exposure will vary. I only use it for metal on metal contact surfaces (what it was designed for). Hell, even the plastic bottle containing MILITEC-1 is degrading! Simple Green was eating away the paint and aluminum on our blackhawk helicopters. once this was discovered, the army banned it for dermatology safety concerns. every chemical has a specific purpose. once you you start using that chemical outside of its intended purpose/s, you're playing with fire. you won't catch me using antifreeze on my pancakes in the morning
After 8 years in the Marines, 70+ different firearms, I've never had problems with militec on everything until my suspicions about these CZ mags, which are largely anecdotal at this time.
Please pass the antifreeze.
That's because in your 8 years in the marines, you're loading aluminum/steel mags into aluminum/steel receivers. Besides, you don't clean a weapon with militec. You use clp or a parts wash bin, then lightly coat your bolt with oil per the training manual. Whether it be m16, m9, m249, m240b, m2, mk19, etc, etc...it's all the same. Why you would want to lube anything other than the parts with metal on metal contract is anyone's guess.
Thanks for your opinions.
We were issued militec1. Its what we called clp. Militec1 is one of the most prominent firearms lubricants available. I've yet to break an ap brush or any other piece of plastic with it. It breaking CZ mags has yet to be proven. If CZ'S mags can't handle it, they should warn people. I plan to conduct a controlled test, you can be sure I'll post results.
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Gentlemen, keep it professional.
As for military cleaners/lubricants, I never saw anything labeled Militec, but I did have an OD bottle of RBC! Can't remember the cans of junk we had in the Armory, but it was pretty good with metal firearms and sea salt...except for the 1911A1 one idiot dropped in 117 feet of ocean. That needed a somewhat more extensive cleaning after EOD recovered it. Yes, they were bored and volunteered.
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I have mags loaded since day 1. (2 10 rnd & 6 30rnd) All have newer USA base plates & followers if that has anything to do with it. No problems anywhere. Fingers crossed :)
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I've had all mine loaded up & kept loaded since day 1. I've never been in the camp of "loaded mags wear out". Spring compression & de-compression many times over & over is what wears them out.
None of my mags have cracked, knock on wood. They are all the imported version with USA followers/bases for 922r compliance.
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CCI Blazer Brass. 30 rounds each. All mags brand new, all manufacturered March of 2016. "Control" has no oil. Hands were cleaned before each set of 3 magazines, and dedicated seperate brushes used to thoroughly apply oil to outside and inside of feedlips on the oiled magazines. I'll be checking daily for cracks.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160824_190425_zpscckiay8r.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/
media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160824_190425_zpscckiay8r.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160824_190444_zps2odvesdn.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160824_190444_zps2odvesdn.jpg.html)
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After approximately 24 hours:
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170239_zpsxex874rk.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170239_zpsxex874rk.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170211_zpsr9ebyvip.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170211_zpsr9ebyvip.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170224_zpsbbxbj0fm.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_170224_zpsbbxbj0fm.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173406_zpslnahgpss.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173406_zpslnahgpss.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173359_zpszpxzf6k6.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173359_zpszpxzf6k6.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173302_zpspnegkzlx.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160825_173302_zpspnegkzlx.jpg.html)
MILITEC-1 and CZ Scorpion Magazines do not mix!
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Very nice test, and an unexpected yet impressive result. Thanks for setting that up. It looks like another Militec one is about to fail.
I guess it's time to Google that product and see what it includes. Hopefully OneShot, which is what I used for magazine cleaning, doesn't contain any of that.
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Wow, can't say I expected that. Thanks for sharing. Wonder what CZ USA would have to say about these results.
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Wow, can't say I expected that. Thanks for sharing. Wonder what CZ USA would have to say about these results.
I'm going to call and tell them tomorrow.
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I only exhibit moderate Google-fu, so perhaps someone can find more and/or better information. Just upfront a personal experience. As you know, engine oil comes in plastic bottles. I once (and only once... lol) stored used engine oil in a milk jug (plastic is plastic, right?). It didn't take too long (a week or two) until the jug was dissolved enough for the oil to leak out. I guess the used oil, being acidic and having other pollutants in it, is just way more aggressive than "clean" engine oil. Lesson learned. Also, different types of plastic react differently to certain chemicals.
Here is a link with a chart of the effecst of various chemicals on plastics/polymers: http://www.plasticsintl.com/plastics_chemical_resistence_chart.html
What I found so far is that Militec apparently contains chlorine:
"Furthermore, DOD has had a standing prohibition against the use of lubricant
additives containing chlorine since late 1950s?prior to the Navy and Marine Corps
test and evaluations. MILITEC-1 contains chlorine. DOD and Navy officials could not
explain why the Navy and Marine Corps conducted these tests and evaluations, given
that MILITEC-1 has always contained chlorine. "
(Source: http://gao.gov/new.items/d09735r.pdf)
I suspect that it is the high chlorine content that weakens the magazines.
More reading on polymer degradation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_degradation
Note the section about "Chlorine-induced cracking".
I have not yet found out what type of polymer the Scorpion magazines are made of. If it's High-Density Polyethylene, or HDPE (more info on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_polyethylene), then apparently the D rating in the resistance chart linked farther up is well deserved. "D = Material will decompose or dissolve in a short(time)".
Yup, looks indeed like a short amount of time.
My hope is that synthetic or natural gun oil WITHOUT aggressive additives won't degrade the polymer used in the magazines as quickly. But after seeing the test pictures above, and reading above links, I think I will clean my magazines only with water from now on.
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Dang, I didn't expect that would happen either. Especially not in this short amount of time. And it looks like another militec sprayed mag is about to fail too.
I guess moral of the story is to keep oils away from it.
Both remaining militec mags have cracks already after 24 hrs. I fully expect two more catastrophic failures.
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Wow...that is incredible. ???
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Unbelievable! I would have lost a a ton of money on that bet. CZ is going to owe you one hell of a thank you.
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Would you post a picture of the feed lips of the mag that failed?
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8)
Passing the antifreeze. Would you like butter with your pancakes as well?
Great test by the way. I admire not only that you used a control AND another product to compare, but you used 3 in each. That would rule out a faulty mag which might have marred the results.
Thank you for posting your results so that fellow scorpion owners will be a little more aware of what they're applying to their tools.
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Really eye opening thread, at least for me. I've learned a lot by reading it.
Thank You all for contributing.
And John thank you for pointing me in this direction.
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Would you post a picture of the feed lips of the mag that failed?
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/20160826_073623_zpsh4ng0xqp.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/20160826_073623_zpsh4ng0xqp.jpg.html)
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I'm really interested in hearing what CZ's comments are on this!
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I'm really interested in hearing what CZ's comments are on this!
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Have ya'll actually seen this advice from CZ? I asked him where he thinks atomized oil from the action goes...
"We advise customers to not put lubricants, cleaners or anything else containing an accelerant on our magazines as, with the vast majority of clear polymers, it will weaken the polymer and cause cracking to occur rapidly. It is best to leave your magazines dry and only clean them with a dry nylon brush.
Thank you,
Andy
CZ-USA
Warranty Gunsmith
1-800-955-4486 ext 336"
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I actually have never oiled any polymer mags, metal ones ...yes. I still have a problem getting the last round or two loaded in these mags, its bleep near impossible to do so. Seems to me the magazine spring is a little too long and with the added pressure could be causing cracks on the feed lips. Has anyone clipped a coil or two off these things and tested the function?
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On another forum, a fellow mechanical engineer made the comical observation
CZ-USA: "Our gun is allergic to oil. We tried to warn you."
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I actually have never oiled any polymer mags, metal ones ...yes. I still have a problem getting the last round or two loaded in these mags, its bleep near impossible to do so. Seems to me the magazine spring is a little too long and with the added pressure could be causing cracks on the feed lips. Has anyone clipped a coil or two off these things and tested the function?
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I had to do this on my 5rd Grendel mag that only take 4. Clipped one loop off the bottom and that allowed the last one to seat.
Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk
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I'm really interested in hearing what CZ's comments are on this!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Have ya'll actually seen this advice from CZ? I asked him where he thinks atomized oil from the action goes...
"We advise customers to not put lubricants, cleaners or anything else containing an accelerant on our magazines as, with the vast majority of clear polymers, it will weaken the polymer and cause cracking to occur rapidly. It is best to leave your magazines dry and only clean them with a dry nylon brush.
Thank you,
Andy
CZ-USA
Warranty Gunsmith
1-800-955-4486 ext 336"
I had a similar thought. Even if you don't oil mags directly, which I don't, they invariably are going to get dirt and oil on them during use or even during cleaning. At this point I'm curious to see if the ballistol causes any degredation over the control.
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48 hour update: Ballistol and Control still going strong. 2 of the 3 Militec-1 mags have now experienced catastrophic failure, with the 3rd not far behind.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_182853_zpsefuwrfkq.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_182853_zpsefuwrfkq.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_182933_zps224tfu4d.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_182933_zps224tfu4d.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_183240_zpstmeaer6z.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160826_183240_zpstmeaer6z.jpg.html)
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(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160826-204519_zps4frbmpcp.png) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20160826-204519_zps4frbmpcp.png.html)
...lol...
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It may be too early to come to an absolute conclusion but it's beginning to look like the mystery of the cracked magazines might be on its way to being solved. Copenhagen designed a simple but effective test and I'm impressed and surprised by the results. Well done sir.
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I've never oiled a mag, except my metal ak mags after scrubbing cosmoline off. Perhaps this is why I haven't had any issues.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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As far as atomized oil in the action getting on the upper part of the magazine, why not just use grease on the bolt rails?
Every work gun I use (5) has no oil, only grease. Works great.
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As far as atomized oil in the action getting on the upper part of the magazine, why not just use grease on the bolt rails?
Every work gun I use (5) has no oil, only grease. Works great.
Grease has oil in it. CZ needs to find out what common additives in some lubricants are creating these adverse reactions. I'm no chemist.
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I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease on the bolt rails of all my guns. Grease is really just a much less viscous oil but I would think there would be less atomization which is why it's used.
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As far as atomized oil in the action getting on the upper part of the magazine, why not just use grease on the bolt rails?
Every work gun I use (5) has no oil, only grease. Works great.
Grease has oil in it. CZ needs to find out what common additives in some lubricants are creating these adverse reactions. I'm no chemist.
CZ recommends the following lubrication's and grease for the Scorpion EVO, These would probably have the least adverse reactions.
Brunox Spray
Ballistol Spray
Cinol G3
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72 hrs...Ballistol and Control holding up well. Last MILITEC-1 looks like she will explode any minute:
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160827_182749_zpsgptorwur.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160827_182749_zpsgptorwur.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160827_182810_zpsc2jp1iux.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160827_182810_zpsc2jp1iux.jpg.html)
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I'd sure like to know what the components of Militec-1 are but the SDS only says "Proprietary synthetic industrial lubricant"
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I truly appreciate Copenhagen's experiment and the expense he is incurring. Is the assumption that all cracked mags are a result of oil? Or militec-1 (which I have never heard of before this thread). It's an interesting experiment but in 30 years of shooting semi automatic weapons I've never oiled a magazine or seen someone oil a mag. If oiling mags is the issue then I'm GTG with my mags. The scientific method would require us to consider all options not just this one which is very interesting in its results. Can anyone who experienced cracked mags let us know if they oiled their mags? I'm more inclined to believe there's an issue with the polymer formula that gets compounded by certain oil formulas. I hope CZ is paying attention.
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I've never oiled a mag (spring) or suffered a cracked mag either but based on the advice given by CZ ("We advise customers to not put lubricants, cleaners or anything else containing an accelerant on our magazines as, with the vast majority of clear polymers, it will weaken the polymer and cause cracking to occur rapidly. It is best to leave your magazines dry and only clean them with a dry nylon brush."), the known fact that certain types of polymers and certain chemicals are incompatible, and the observation that only the three mags oiled with Militec-1 have suffered catastrophic failures, I now feel pretty safe in saying that Militec-1 is incompatible with the CZ mags. If these are the same mags that CZ has been making for this gun for years or the same composition then I'm hesitant to say that there's an inherent flaw in the magazines or the polymer.
I would definitely like to know how many people who have had mag failures lubricated or oiled them with any product, not only Militec-1.
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As I've stated before, ive never oiled my mags and always left them loaded. I've only had 1 mag that showed cracks and they were 2 hairline ones. Most of my mags are bleep near impossible to fully load. I usually end up 1 or 2 rounds short. Yes I've tried many times and no i dont have sissy weak fingers either! Lol
I decided to try cutting 2 coils off the spring in one of my mags, before it would only take 28 rounds, now it takes 30. I'll give this one a try and see if there are any issues with feeding...i doubt there will be. There is alot of pressure exerted on those feed lips with these springs. That has to be a possible cause of cracks, we definitely know NOT to get Millitec anywhere near polymer now!
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I've never oiled a mag (spring) or suffered a cracked mag either but based on the advice given by CZ ("We advise customers to not put lubricants, cleaners or anything else containing an accelerant on our magazines as, with the vast majority of clear polymers, it will weaken the polymer and cause cracking to occur rapidly. It is best to leave your magazines dry and only clean them with a dry nylon brush."), the known fact that certain types of polymers and certain chemicals are incompatible, and the observation that only the three mags oiled with Militec-1 have suffered catastrophic failures, I now feel pretty safe in saying that Militec-1 is incompatible with the CZ mags. If these are the same mags that CZ has been making for this gun for years or the same composition then I'm hesitant to say that there's an inherent flaw in the magazines or the polymer.
I would definitely like to know how many people who have had mag failures lubricated or oiled them with any product, not only Militec-1.
Read here about militec, you don't want it near steel or polymer:
https://looserounds.com/2012/10/21/militec-and-chloride/
Now those things are great and grand??if they were true, sadly they are not. Here is something you probably have not read but should- http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=sDZonEVMgb4C&dq=militec+banned&jtp=1. This goes over pretty well how Militec-1 truly performed over time as it was tested numerous times, its a good read and well worth your time. If you want the short version?Militec-1 has never passed military trials and when it was awarded a NSN the company that awarded it admitted to basically cheating to let them get the pass.
Another thing you probably have not read or heard about is that Militec-1 has Chlorinated esters in it. Now if you don?t know Chlorinated esters when combined with metals that are placed under high tensile pressure(ala firearms being fired) will and does lead to stress cracks, this is a phenomena called CSCC(Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking).
Here is a great article on it and what happens. http://www.corrosionist.com/what_is_chloride_stress_corrosion_cracking.htm
This is a big reason Militec-1 should never be recommended for firearms, the area of the bolt will be subjected to heat, pressure, and stress all of this combined with the chlorinated esters in Militec-1 can and have caused premature wear on bolts.
When you begin to look at lubricants you should make sure to really dig into it online and make sure that it does not contain any chlorinated esters in them.
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The point of my experiment was to investigate potentially harmful effects of two popular gun oils on Scorpion magazine plastic. I believe it's safe to say that any product that you clean or lubricate your firearm with will be deposited in some quantity on and in your magazine during firing. Furthermore, AP brushes have a habit of being used to remove carbon, also spreading any products you may use around.
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Well, that is certainly interesting, and I appreciate the time you took to experiment with this, thank you very much for sharing.
If these are the same mags that CZ has been making for this gun for years or the same composition then I'm hesitant to say that there's an inherent flaw in the magazines or the polymer.
Yes they are, and I agree.
I am also old school military - thou shalt never ever oil magazines; Box O' Truth did an interesting experiment with penetrating oils and primers some years back. As for "atomized oil" getting into magazines, there's a lot more gunpowder residue in there than oil, unless you're running your guns very wet. Out here in the desert, oil attracts things like sand and snot, so we run guns dryer than other places. I have not oiled the inside of a magazine since about 1981, which, also, might explain why my magazines are running strong. Also, I have never used Militec oil for anything - Weapon Shield is my favorite CLP.
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SC is not the desert. If you like rust, avoid oil.
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Lol! I'm in Arkansas, lots of rain and high humidity. I know what you're talking about Copenhagen!
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96hrs: sort of boring. Ballistol and Control are fine, but still have one militec mag that is refusing to pop:
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160828_172710_zpstzjungcv.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160828_172710_zpstzjungcv.jpg.html)
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SC is not the desert. If you like rust, avoid oil.
Well, sweat eats metal. ;) So I use oil on the outside of the metal for rust preventative on surfaces that might rust, but polymer doesn't seem to rust, so far. :) I do have to oil a lot of magazine release buttons on pistols because the best finish in the world is no match for constant sweat. But again, I've never once seen polymer rust. I was a Gunners Mate Guns in the US Navy and we just regular old CLP on small arms in a salt water atmosphere and they stayed fine with a standard military finish. Yes, we checked them often in the armory and when mounted on the gunwale, foc'sle and fantail i this is where I learned to hate the M2HB bolt assembly.
I am not disagreeing with your experiment - I think it's a great idea and appreciate your time and expense in doing it. Thank you for doing this.
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I run the entire spring of a magazine through an oily patch, on new magazines and every year or two after that. The inside and outside of the magazine, as well as the follower, gets sprayed with Hornady's OneShot, then wiped clean and dry with a patch. No oil is applied. As mentioned, oil can migrate into primers, and it attracts dust and dirt. The wipe with OneShot does not leave an oily film. But it slicks up the mag (teflon coating) where the cartridge and follower move very nice.
I realized I do have a loaded 20 rounder for the Evo. That mag got the same procedure. Don't recall when it was loaded, but it's been months ago... maybe April? No cracks. I'm reasonable sure that OneShot won't harm it.
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copenhagen: How's the last Militec mag doing? Did it finally burst? (man, the suspense is killing me!) ;D
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~5 days: last militec won't burst, but the Ballistol and Control still look new.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160829_211416_zpsndsjbusk.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160829_211416_zpsndsjbusk.jpg.html)
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/enj0i2001/Mobile%20Uploads/20160829_211459_zps02pifac7.jpg) (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/enj0i2001/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160829_211459_zps02pifac7.jpg.html)
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Well, you can always sprinkle some Militec over that mag to help it along. ;D
But seriously, from the pictures the other day, and even today, I don't know how that top round is being retained. It looks like the lips are spread far enough where that top round should just pop out. (which certainly would cause the remaining rounds to push up with enough force to break the lip with the largest crack, freeing them all). If it hasn't blown yet, I doubt it will. I think the chlorine has done its job and evaporated. It may just remain like this if left untouched. Certainly becoming more interesting as time ticks by.
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i would say after a week, if it hasn't had a catastrophic failure by then, load it in your scorpion and see if it functions.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/436cbb5de47a64768176efb7a7d22f61.jpg)
I had this mag loaded for bout a month. Took it out of the bag today showing my brother-in-law and noticed the crack. Once I took the rounds out it obviously broke. Gotta send her in.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/436cbb5de47a64768176efb7a7d22f61.jpg)
I had this mag loaded for bout a month. Took it out of the bag today showing my brother-in-law and noticed the crack. Once I took the rounds out it obviously broke. Gotta send her in.
So you had sprayed Militec1 on this magazine?
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/436cbb5de47a64768176efb7a7d22f61.jpg)
I had this mag loaded for bout a month. Took it out of the bag today showing my brother-in-law and noticed the crack. Once I took the rounds out it obviously broke. Gotta send her in.
So you had sprayed Militec1 on this magazine?
No
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Did you use any kind of lubricant or cleaner on it?
I think Lancer really needs to get involved in the Scorpion mag market by applying their hybrid design principles.
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Did you use any kind of lubricant or cleaner on it?
I think Lancer really needs to get involved in the Scorpion mag market by applying their hybrid design principles.
Nope, come to think of it I only used my 30 rounder and the other 20 rounder. This one was never used only loaded.
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I have fifteen 30 round mags and one of the original 20 rounders that I rotate through. The other 20 round mag is kept loaded with HD rounds (downloaded to 18) and kept in the gun. I think I'd better start checking that one every couple of weeks.
None have ever been lubricated and they won't be.
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/436cbb5de47a64768176efb7a7d22f61.jpg)
I had this mag loaded for bout a month. Took it out of the bag today showing my brother-in-law and noticed the crack. Once I took the rounds out it obviously broke. Gotta send her in.
So you had sprayed Militec1 on this magazine?
The reason I asked about the militec1 is I believe the underlying problem with the mags is in the polymer. The experiment in this thread shows that coating the mag with a lubricant just compounds the issue and quickens the pace of the polymer's failure.
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I think Lancer really needs to get involved in the Scorpion mag market by applying their hybrid design principles.
Maybe we should all start a emailing magazine manufactures asking about their plans for EVO magazines.
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Magpul!!!!!!!
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
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Magpul!!!!!!!
"Ex Umbris Venimus"
I just submitted a new product request!
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Everyone email lancer for sure.
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CZ recommends the following lubrication's and grease for the Scorpion EVO, These would probably have the least adverse reactions.
Brunox Spray
Ballistol Spray
Canon G3
Well, that fairly well covers the American market as far as availability......
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Does CLP have any adverse effects?
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I can tell you Weapon Shield seems to have no adverse effects on magazines.
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I can tell you Weapon Shield seems to have no adverse effects on magazines.
Ive been using Breakfree on my gun for 4 months. Several thousand rounds, no magazine issues and I keep them loaded to capacity.
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FYI, 12 days in, all 3 Militecs are destroyed, I'm going to try to hold our a month on the Ballistol and Control, but really keep wanting to shoot them. They are holding up great!
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Lancer does the Sig Mpx 9mm mags, so would assume they might be a little sketch on engaging.
I would prefer lancer, but magpul is a good second option -- IF they don't stick w/ the terrible gen 3 colors of black and sand, much prefer the gen 2 colors of FDE, ODG, Black, etc...
DEET (OFF, bug repellent spray) is the best chemical for quickly killing polymer mags...
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At this time, we do not have any plans on developing a magazine for the Scorpion.
However, your email will be forwarded to our Business Area Manager for review.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
(http://cid:image001.png@01D1E0EA.09AA4D60)
Lancer
I got the same response--
Thank you for contacting us.
At this time, we do not have any plans on developing a magazine for the Scorpion.
However, your email will be forwarded to our business area manager for review.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Best Regards,
Dan
Daniel Wolfgang
Small Arms Customer Service Technical Specialist
Advanced Weapons and Components
2800 Milford Square Pike
Quakertown, PA 18951
dwolfgang@lancer-systems.com
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Lancer is knees deep w/ Sig -- and if you look at the MPX mag prices at greater than $50 per mag, I wouldn't be interested in one for the Scorpion at any more than $25 per mag.
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It's been one month. All the Ballistol and Control magazines are stellar. I may shoot them tomorrow. As you know, every Militec mag cracked to smithereens.
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I just want to say a big "Thank You" to pntball650 for starting this thread and to copenhagen for conducting a thorough real world test. I think we've all learned something here and this isn't the end of the story to scorpion mags failing prematurely.
I've seen this thread linked and referenced in other forums. Hopefully cz or cz usa will learn from the things discussed here as well. You never know, maybe they'll at least distribute a warning slip with their future scorpions advising owners what type of cleaners and lubricants to avoid.
There's so many things I've personally learned from this forum and I'm forever grateful for its existence. There is a plethora or things to be learned here for new owners. It would be nice if there were a way to pin an ongoing list (not discussion because that's what the threads are for) of lessons learned from trial and error as well as experience and wisdom.
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Was going to start a new post but I'll just leave this here. :o :( >:( :-\
This mag was loaded with 29 rounds. Was inserted into one of my CZ scorpions for about a month. The scorpion is setup for home defense and has very few rounds through it along with this mag.
It has never had oil of any kind applied to it. Only oil it has come in contact with is the oil that is used on the gun itself.
I use break free on the gun.
I wash my mags. Disassemble and wash the plastic parts with mild dishwashing liquid and then rinsed and let air dry. Springs are cleaned with a soft cloth with break free applied to it and then wiped off with a clean soft rag like a washcloth or old t-shirt. The oil is not let to say on the spring it is wiped off completely. I run my fingers with the cloth around it around the spring the entire length off it I spend a lot of time doing this. Trust me when I say this the spring is dry. I then reassembled the mags when the plastic parts are dry. I use this method on all my "Plastic Mags".
I'll be calling CZ tomorrow I have to work 12 hours today. I have 922r followers and baseplates on all my mags cz will be getting the mag body back only. I have 20 mags total for the 2 scorpions I have.
The mag I reloaded and put back in the HD scorpion has been checked out to be good. Other mags will have to be gone over when I am off 12 hours Wednesday.
What really worries me is that this mag has sat in the gun for month. With the mag in the gun the tension is off the feedlips I assume due to the mag having to be pushed that extra little bit to seat it fully and get a click. :-\
Date code on mags is 9/13.
Pictures for the Illiterate.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2914.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2914.jpg.html)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2918.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2918.jpg.html)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2919.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2919.jpg.html)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2920.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2920.jpg.html)
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Wow! Sorry to see that. We definitely know not get Millitec anywhere near our mags now, but you didn't have contact with any oil that could have caused issues like that. I use Breakfree CLP and haven't had any issues like that. I have had one mag that hairline cracked on the right lip. Most of my mags are impossible to load 30 rounds in, some only 28 or 29. I still feel like the spring is too long/strong for these polymer mags. I haven't had a chance to use it yet but i removed one spring and clipped off 2 coils. I can now load 30 rounds in it and its still VERY stout. Thats alot of pressure exerted on the plastic, it has to be causing this issue. How many others have not been able to fully load their mags? Thoughts?
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I've only loaded up one of my mags to a full 30 so far, but I didn't have to apply Herculean strength like it seems some people have (or at bare minimum, it was easier to load than my Shield mags). I did notice that rotorblade's mags have the "older" mold style with the hard cornered feed lips. This makes me wonder if the issue is a combination of those feed lips with springs that have too much power. Has anyone taken a measurement of a "problem mag" spring and compared it to a new production (mid-'16) magazine? A caliper measurement of the feed lips on both mold styles would help too.
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i have heard nothing about any "new" mold, being told nothing has changed so far.
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i have heard nothing about any "new" mold, being told nothing has changed so far.
There was a video on another thread that showed a difference between two CZ Evo magazines - the older style had the feed lips cut with hard angles where they curve inward from the magazine body. New production mags (or at least the eight I have, which are all from about May 2016) have rounded corners there instead. If you compare the feed lips on copenhagen's test mags to rotorblade's, the difference becomes apparent.
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Valk, I see what you mean, never noticed that before.
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Rotorblade, All my 2015 mags did this. I use CLP to clean my gun. Oil is not the issue. Weak polymer is. CZ needs to use better quality polymers. Sunlight actually is the weakness of all plastics, but mine see non or seconds of it. Pressures are exceeding the resistance of polymer feeding lips. Lancer needs to get off its high horse with sig and make some money on this opportunity. You can always tell a sig mag in the sale floor, cause it has dust from sitting there to long due to outrageous prices.
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I actually see Magpul jumping before lancer -- just not sure if there'd be enough volume for them to make the jump... It took them how many years to develop an AK mag?
If not magpul, maybe hexmag or another will jump on it?
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I'd bug ETS about it too - they seem much more agile as far as developing new things goes. Plus, they make clear mags already too.
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I just broke a 30 round magazine at the lips (like other pictures)...I did not keep they loaded and it only took 4 or 5 loadings before failure.
CZ paid for the return shipping but I'm a little nervous about the other 8 or 9 I have laying around. Oh well, worry not.
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What is the date code on the failed magazine?
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UPDATE!!!!
Sorry I'm late getting back to y'all I was in a phone booth changing clothes.
ALL my mags are flat corners NOT rounded ALL other mags are not cracking but I will keep inspecting over time. 1 mag is a 10/13 dated, 3 are 11/15, and the others are 9/15. All flawed corners. Mag that cracked is dated 9/13, l'll call CZ Monday. Im going to see what they can do to replace all mags seeing I have spent over a grand on the CZ USA web shop in the last year, but they will only be getting the mag bodies unless they can guarantee me 922r ready mags. We'll see. My "guess" is they will only replace the broken one and tell me to pound sand on the others until they break. :(
We actually went shooting the Scorpions and my sons AR-15 Friday. My wife loved the hell out of the Scorpion. She understands now why I got them and did what I did with her on the trust. She wants me to set up the Scorpion without the MRO for her now. She did good with it. SO now I have to buy another MRO and get 2 x300u's lights. Oh and get this she doesn't like the vertical grip. WTF :o
Wraith223 is correct that sunlight is the enemy of all plastics. Thats why most polymer manufacturers use carbon black additive in the plastics. Carbon black acts as a sunscreen and helps keep the plastic from getting "Dry out Burn out embrittlement". The new Magpul plastic that is the sand color stuff, thats some tuff !@## man I tell you. GOOD tough and dense but heavy for what it is. Its a cured product from what I understand not a thermo melt. The clear plastic stuff even the smoke plastic stuff will melt, deform, and even dissolve when brought in contact with kerosene and other kerosene based products.
Now for all the talk of Magpul making the mags for the scorpion I don't think they will do that. The mags seem decent enough just need a little tweaking with new plastic and maybe some carbon black in the mix. Just making the mag out of black plastic that is more dense will help things and then a little witness hole for the 30th round indicating full mag. Make the follower red to help with the witness hole when getting close to the 30th round. Yes just like the Magpul Glock Mags. Besides and you must remember mags are considered a consumable item. Magazines in the military channels are considered expendable consumable like ammo. Once used they are considered to be disposed of dropped not used again.
What would be the best and probably the quickest would be Scorpion replacement grip and some safety levers. Thats a whole hell of a lot easier design and manufacturing wise to bring to market. Magpul MOE SL grip with some nice wide safety levers would be the FUNK.
As for Lancer IIRC and I can't remember where I read it at but someone said that they are contract bound to not make mags for 9mm smg's for any other companies. Besides when paying $20 for a factory mag who is going to buy a $50.00 mag when a $20 mag is available.
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What is the date code on the failed magazine?
I did not document that. Sorry.
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I'd bug ETS about it too - they seem much more agile as far as developing new things goes. Plus, they make clear mags already too.
This, but who is currently making CZ-USA mags? Saw somewhere that current CZ-USA EVO mags are all US made, so if so, who is making them and why the issues? That it might be ETS gives me pause.
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Wraith223 is correct that sunlight is the enemy of all plastics. Thats why most polymer manufacturers use carbon black additive in the plastics. Carbon black acts as a sunscreen and helps keep the plastic from getting "Dry out Burn out embrittlement". The new Magpul plastic that is the sand color stuff, thats some tuff !@## man I tell you. GOOD tough and dense but heavy for what it is. Its a cured product from what I understand not a thermo melt. The clear plastic stuff even the smoke plastic stuff will melt, deform, and even dissolve when brought in contact with kerosene and other kerosene based products.
Now for all the talk of Magpul making the mags for the scorpion I don't think they will do that. The mags seem decent enough just need a little tweaking with new plastic and maybe some carbon black in the mix. Just making the mag out of black plastic that is more dense will help things and then a little witness hole for the 30th round indicating full mag. Make the follower red to help with the witness hole when getting close to the 30th round. Yes just like the Magpul Glock Mags. Besides and you must remember mags are considered a consumable item. Magazines in the military channels are considered expendable consumable like ammo. Once used they are considered to be disposed of dropped not used again.
What would be the best and probably the quickest would be Scorpion replacement grip and some safety levers. Thats a whole hell of a lot easier design and manufacturing wise to bring to market. Magpul MOE SL grip with some nice wide safety levers would be the FUNK.
As for Lancer IIRC and I can't remember where I read it at but someone said that they are contract bound to not make mags for 9mm smg's for any other companies. Besides when paying $20 for a factory mag who is going to buy a $50.00 mag when a $20 mag is available.
Yes, opaque mags are typically more durable than clear.
And agree on the price difference for lancers, at more than 2x, they're a novelty not a necessity. And first I've heard on smg exclusivity but that wouldn't surprise.
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I wish you could buy the poly mag case separately, like you can the mag base plates and feed assembly.
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CZ EVO magazines are still being made in the Czech Republic. 922 compliant parts are being made here in the US, not sure who is making the mag parts here. The mold change was very recent, and BTW, CZ-=USA liked the Type A/Type B comments, they thought that was cool. The polymer has NOT changed, just the minor mold tweak. Things may change again in the future, but my contacts aren't saying anything yet.
If CZ-UB would license someone to make mags here it might be a very interesting thing...
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I have 2 of "b" type mags which were manufactured jan 16 and shipped with my carbine (1 of which has a hairline crack in one of the feed lips).
I have 12 of the "a" type mags which were all manufactured in 2015 (various months) and 5 of those have hairline cracks.
These hairline cracks are 1/2 - 1 cm in length and seem to be inside the plastic (not tactile). I was surprised that of the 2 b mags, 1 has this crack that looks similar to the A mags.
So, to me, this new mold design isn't the fix we're looking for. I keep all of these mags loaded, but shoot about every other day and the mags are rotated front to back after use. The mags still function perfectly so I have no intention of sending them back until they stop holding rounds or feeding properly.
I remember when all of those bans were in effect (assault weapons ban, brady bill, etc...), you could still get mag replacement bodies from manufacturers for standard cap mags, you just couldn't get the other hardware to support a double stack mag.
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Where is the crack on your Type B feed lip, if you don't mind me asking? I've noticed "lines' on some of my magazine feed lips, but given that none of them have been shot yet (haven't had time), and only one has been loaded, I'm wondering if it's less a crack and more just a noticeable mold line since those that have the marks are all in the same place.
Also, you mentioned the Type Bs are the ones that came with the carbine, so I'm assuming they're 20 round magazines. If possible, could you get a measurement of the spring length? As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm wondering if the mold revision is only the most immediately noticeable of multiple potential changes to the magazine design. If so, they could still be using 30 round springs in 20 round mags, which is causing pressure that the improved feed lip design is not enough to offset on its own.
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Where is the crack on your Type B feed lip, if you don't mind me asking? I've noticed "lines' on some of my magazine feed lips, but given that none of them have been shot yet (haven't had time), and only one has been loaded, I'm wondering if it's less a crack and more just a noticeable mold line since those that have the marks are all in the same place.
Also, you mentioned the Type Bs are the ones that came with the carbine, so I'm assuming they're 20 round magazines. If possible, could you get a measurement of the spring length? As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm wondering if the mold revision is only the most immediately noticeable of multiple potential changes to the magazine design. If so, they could still be using 30 round springs in 20 round mags, which is causing pressure that the improved feed lip design is not enough to offset on its own.
The hairline crack on the B mag is on the right feedlip, 1/16" from the front of the feedlip and 1/8" long running along the curved portion of the feedlip (left to right, right to left).
it may be a sign of premature failure or it may be nothing. the reason i'm not too worried about it and will use all my mags without bias until they eventually fail (if that day ever comes).
yes, these are all 20 round mags. i can't give you a spring length because they all vary by how long they've been in rotation. i mean, i didn't start with 14 mags, just slowly picked up a couple every so often (just got 2 more in mail today, type A) and added them to the rotation. i can give you a coil count though, 18 tip to tip. same springs in A and B mags, only difference is the mag body, follower and baseplate. how many coils are on the 30 round mags? how many are on the 10 round mags? if i have both of those numbers, i may just split the difference and cut half way between the 2.
now i can understand the crack on the right feed lip since that's where the last round rests. what i don't understand is why half of my crack mags (hairline crack, just a reminder) have this on the left feed lip. and they are cracks because if you look directly it, invisible, but as you rotate the mag, you can see the light travel through line. maybe i could feel it from the inside, but the outside is smooth. really don't feel like dumping all my rounds, gutting the mag, cleaning it and trying to squeeze my pinky in there at an odd angle to feel for something (that just sounds so wrong). guess i could use a dental pick to feel in there.
ahh, i'm just going to make a youtube video
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Where is the crack on your Type B feed lip, if you don't mind me asking? I've noticed "lines' on some of my magazine feed lips, but given that none of them have been shot yet (haven't had time), and only one has been loaded, I'm wondering if it's less a crack and more just a noticeable mold line since those that have the marks are all in the same place.
look at post #22. looks like the first pic
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=82990.0
and the video that started the whole A vs B mags
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=80841.0
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I checked my 20 rounders and found both had 18 coils. Both are CZ USA-made, May 2016, Type B. My 30 rounders (also May '16, Type B) also have 18 coils - seems that hasn't been changed yet.
As mentioned, some of my magazines have "lines" in them on the left feed lip despite being fresh out of the package (the loaded mag in this photo is the only one that I've loaded up at all so far). With some, it's more noticeable than others, but it's a consistent shape and placement on each. I'm thinking this is just a flash line of some sort. However, I also think it may be a point of structural weakness that is exacerbated when used in conjunction with 20 rounders (too much spring pressure) or Type A 30 rounders (thinner material). I'm curious to see if anyone here has a Type B 30 rounder that wound up with cracking in the same spot.
(http://i.imgur.com/7JheohZ.jpg?1)
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Thank you for the pic. Yeah, it doesn't help that these lines are located at the thinnest portion of the feed lip. Is cz sending the US all of their reject mags and sending all of the goods ones to the military/LE community. Just a theory. Since your mags already had these lines when they arrived
Soooooo....does anybody out there have a 10 round mag?? How many coils inside? Would be nice to hear from more than 1 source for confirmation.
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Thank you for the pic. Yeah, it doesn't help that these lines are located at the thinnest portion of the feed lip. Is cz sending the US all of their reject mags and sending all of the goods ones to the military/LE community. Just a theory. Since your mags already had these lines when they arrived
As worrying as that thought is, I still think (well, hope) my hypothesis about those lines being mold lines is what's actually going on here. If CZ was just dumping reject mag bodies onto the market, our "broken mag" thread would be much, much longer, I presume. :D
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Thank you for the pic. Yeah, it doesn't help that these lines are located at the thinnest portion of the feed lip. Is cz sending the US all of their reject mags and sending all of the goods ones to the military/LE community. Just a theory. Since your mags already had these lines when they arrived
Soooooo....does anybody out there have a 10 round mag?? How many coils inside? Would be nice to hear from more than 1 source for confirmation.
Wait One!!!!!
OK left is 10 rounder with its spring. Middle 20 rounder with its spring. Right is 30 rounder with its spring. Just as they are taken out of the mag. ALL 3 of these mags have sat for probably 5 or 6 months. I use the 10 rounder for zeroing and stuff at the outdoor range. I use the 20 rounder for zeroing at the indoor range. I only have 1 10 rounder and 1 20 rounder. The other 20 round mags that came with my Scorpions I sold with all the parts I took out of the gun to make it 922r ready.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2932.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2932.jpg.html)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2930.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2930.jpg.html)
Oh and picture of the wife shooting the MRO Sighted Scorpion which she has declared hers. YES she is on the trust. OH and yes she wants me to find someone to hydrodip it to match the muddy girl hearing protectors. 8) 8) 8) Although she is wondering if she has it done then she will hate it later. I was thinking of doing the Handguards, both sides of the receiver, the places of the stock that aren't rubber, the pistol grip and leave everthing else alone. Definitely have the lacquer clear coat applied after.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2927.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2927.jpg.html)
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Awesome I hope to someday find that special someone that will enjoy guns and fishing, and camp fires like I do your a lucky man.
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Thank you for the pic. Yeah, it doesn't help that these lines are located at the thinnest portion of the feed lip. Is cz sending the US all of their reject mags and sending all of the goods ones to the military/LE community. Just a theory. Since your mags already had these lines when they arrived
Soooooo....does anybody out there have a 10 round mag?? How many coils inside? Would be nice to hear from more than 1 source for confirmation.
Wait One!!!!!
OK left is 10 rounder with its spring. Middle 20 rounder with its spring. Right is 30 rounder with its spring. Just as they are taken out of the mag. ALL 3 of these mags have sat for probably 5 or 6 months. I use the 10 rounder for zeroing and stuff at the outdoor range. I use the 20 rounder for zeroing at the indoor range. I only have 1 10 rounder and 1 20 rounder. The other 20 round mags that came with my Scorpions I sold with all the parts I took out of the gun to make it 922r ready.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2932.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2932.jpg.html)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/rotorblade69/DSCF2930.jpg) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/rotorblade69/media/DSCF2930.jpg.html)
THANK YOU!!!
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so...
11 links (let's just say 12 to keep things even) on the 10 round mag
18 links for the 20 and 30 round mags
half way between would be 15 links
i'm cutting 3 off
bleep, should've just listened to John-A from the beginning!
why isn't cz cutting these down? i've heard of people with 30 mags having difficulty getting the last round or 2 in
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so...
11 links (let's just say 12 to keep things even) on the 10 round mag
18 links for the 20 and 30 round mags
half way between would be 15 links
i'm cutting 3 off
bleep, should've just listened to John-A from the beginning!
why isn't cz cutting these down? i've heard of people with 30 mags having difficulty getting the last round or 2 in
Feed reliability concerns would be my guess. Do let us know if you run into any issues after trimming the links on your 20s and 30s; carrying a Shield has made me pretty used to difficult mag loading, but loading that 30th round is still a nightmare of a loading unlike anything I've ever done.
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John...egad... :o ;D Haven't heard THAT song in a few decades!
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so...
11 links (let's just say 12 to keep things even) on the 10 round mag
18 links for the 20 and 30 round mags
half way between would be 15 links
i'm cutting 3 off
bleep, should've just listened to John-A from the beginning!
why isn't cz cutting these down? i've heard of people with 30 mags having difficulty getting the last round or 2 in
Feed reliability concerns would be my guess. Do let us know if you run into any issues after trimming the links on your 20s and 30s; carrying a Shield has made me pretty used to difficult mag loading, but loading that 30th round is still a nightmare of a loading unlike anything I've ever done.
Manufacturing time and according cost would be my guess... Profit margins. Easily add another full time worker or two to modify all the springs, and/or extra cost and potential issues with getting spring inventories mixed when having custom springs made.
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Response from Mec-Gar about them making magazines for the Scorpion
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Unfortunately we aren't planning to make magazines for that pistol at this time. If you have any further questions please contact us again.
Mec-Gar USA, Inc.
905 Middle Street
Middletown, CT 06457
Tel: 860-635-1525
Fax: 860-635-1712
Web: www.mec-gar.com
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Response from Mec-Gar about them making magazines for the Scorpion
********
Unfortunately we aren't planning to make magazines for that pistol at this time. If you have any further questions please contact us again.
Mec-Gar USA, Inc.
905 Middle Street
Middletown, CT 06457
Tel: 860-635-1525
Fax: 860-635-1712
Web: www.mec-gar.com
Well maybe they should plan to make a plan :P
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Do they make any rifle mags? Maybe try C products if you're wanting metal mags... Their stainless are top notch IMO. Run them almost exclusively in 9mm ARs and my AR15 metal mag stockpile consists nearly exclusively of these as well... Lancers are my primary AR15 mags however.