The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: armoredman on November 07, 2016, 07:47:51 PM
-
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMZy4hahFT6/
Reply 23 with uncloaked video. :)
-
Now you gone and done it, I won't sleep unyil I know what it is :-[
-
I thought that was figured out?
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=83629.0
Doesn't matter, I spent all my fun money on a lot of stuff that might be hard to find soon.
-
AZ_CZ beat me to it.
[emoji12]
-
Hmmm..
-
Whassa "striker"? I may have a striker here somewhere. Paperweight of some sort.
Joe
-
Leave it to the Czechs to finally harness Romulan technology.
It's obvious from the video above that CZ is introducing a pistol with a cloaking device !! You'll be able to carry it open, but the only thing people around you will see is a black blur on your belt.
I want one !!
-
Leave it to the Czechs to finally harness Romulan technology.
It's obvious from the video above that CZ is introducing a pistol with a cloaking device !! You'll be able to carry it open, but the only thing people around you will see is a black blur on your belt.
I want one !!
Wahahahaha 100 points go to Wobbly!
-
Lol ;D Cloaking device!!!!
-
The ultimate IPSC/USPSA DA/Sa pistol aka the Shadow2 would be my guess. In this corner weighing in at svelt 47 ounces......guns are selling well up here among ther IPSC crowd. I picked up a "as new" Shadow for $800cdn ($560US) from a fellow who chased a Shadow2 down.
Take Care
Bob
-
Leave it to the Czechs to finally harness Romulan technology.
It's obvious from the video above that CZ is introducing a pistol with a cloaking device !! You'll be able to carry it open, but the only thing people around you will see is a black blur on your belt.
I want one !!
Well, from a company that produces pistols with names like Shadow and Phantom...that would make sense! 8) ;D
-
OK how about the P-07 Kadet in .22LR. It is on the CZ website now.
Bob
-
Leave it to the Czechs to finally harness Romulan technology.
(http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/factfiles/klingon-disruptor-tos2.jpg)
Disruptor used by both Klingon and Romulan Star Empires.
-
It's obvious from the video above that CZ is introducing a pistol with a cloaking device !! You'll be able to carry it open, but the only thing people around you will see is a black blur on your belt.
So does that mean that you'd be able to carry on your appendix without wearing pants?
-
OK how about the P-07 Kadet in .22LR. It is on the CZ website now.
Bob
If so I would be willing to trade someone for my newly purchased SP-01 compact even up!
-
OK how about the P-07 Kadet in .22LR. It is on the CZ website now.
Bob
If so I would be willing to trade someone for my newly purchased SP-01 compact even up!
Wait 6 months and you won't have to trade even since those are limited run they'll be worth more than a production P-07 kadet. Get more return...
-
Rumor also has a P-09 Kadet Kit - THAt would be fun! It already recoils like a 22lr...
Hmm, Romulan Disruptor by CZ...I like it...but how do we get them out of the Neutral Zone?
-
Hmm, Romulan Disruptor by CZ...I like it...but how do we get them out of the Neutral Zone?
Through the the heavy distribution of Romulan Ale of course.........
-
So here's what we know from the interwebs so far for 2017:
1. P10 polymer striker gun is a go.
2. P09 Kadet Kit is a go
3. SP01 PHANTOM is coming back to the lineup
4. Either new models or new chamberings are going to be available for the 527
5. Changing shotgun lineup
6. Dan Wesson expanding their product lineup
7. 805 Bren pistols and rifles in .300 BO
8. Bren 2 will be imported for LE use
Now if only they can import enough to satisfy the demand, we will be good to go!
Source: https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/czs-new-bren-guns-p-09-kadet-kit-and-the-return-of-the-sp-01-phantom/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20161118_FridayDigest_96&utm_campaign=/blog/czs-new-bren-guns-p-09-kadet-kit-and-the-return-of-the-sp-01-phantom/
-
Hmm, Romulan Disruptor by CZ...I like it...but how do we get them out of the Neutral Zone?
Through the the heavy distribution of Romulan Ale of course.........
How foolish of me, of course. ;)
-
Through the the heavy distribution of Romulan Ale of course.........
How foolish of me, of course. ;)
Drink is a double-edged sword when you have a Scotsman in the engine room of your get-away vehicle.
Just saying. ::)
-
This is true, demonstrably so...
First pictures of the new pistol have surface on Facebook/Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BM9-GB2DI5v/?taken-by=czusafirearms
-
Well poop the gun is a Compact model so we won;t see it up here unless they bring it up with the supressor barrel and it exceeds 105MM. Since it is the P 10 C that might indicate they will bring it out in a FS guns. If so we would be back in the game.
I know this and a FS gun will sell well among the CZ crowd but the gun certainly is moving into a very crowded market where Glock and to a lessor extent the M&P dominate.
Love to have a FS version of the gun but the P -09 is available now and the Phantom is said to be going to return.
Take Care
Bob
-
https://youtu.be/h-ptLPmSdL4
-
Canuck44, you may get your wish. They say a threaded barrel model is in the works.
Also, I bet a full size version won't be far behind[emoji6]
-
Canuck44, you may get your wish. They say a threaded barrel model is in the works.
Also, I bet a full size version won't be far behind[emoji6]
I am hoping.
Take Care
Bob
-
In the MAC video, it looks like they started with a P-07 and converted it to striker fired. No separate ignition module that can be moved from one polymer frame size to another or anything like that, but my bet is that the barrel and slide lock up and unlock timing are identical to the P-07 and that the slide and frame have been modified for the striker action and that is it. If so, it will be a fine firearm, with the accuracy of the P-07 and P-09 and the trigger feel and repeatability of what I suspect will be an excellent and refined striker mechanism. If you like that sort of thing. :) :)
Joe
-
Surprised they didn't call it a P-08 and the full sized gun a P-10. I wish I had an excuse to get one, but I do not...
-
Did anybody see if the slide fits inside the frame rails? I didn't look that close when he field stripped it.
-
Did anybody see if the slide fits inside the frame rails? I didn't look that close when he field stripped it.
Nope. Looks like the slide tuns on an insert like a VP-9, Glock, FN or Walther polymer. The takedown procedure looks just like a Glock.
-
Meh been down the striker fired road before. I won't revisit that again but it should be a great competitor among those who like this style weapon and maybe the cost of mags will come down now and we can get a better deal on P-07/09 mags. Hopefully.
-
Surprised they didn't call it a P-08 and the full sized gun a P-10. I wish I had an excuse to get one, but I do not...
If they had called it a P-08, then searches for the new pistol will find a lot of Lugers.
-
Ah heck, it's not even here yet and I'm already ready for the P-10SC. My Rami's new cousin [emoji2]
I know, I know. Too soon? But hey, a guy can dream. [emoji85][emoji86][emoji87]
-
eastman, that is exactly the reason the P series goes 07 to 09 and up...the feeling was Georg Luger had forever co-opted the label "P-08". :) Wonder what the next P series will look like...
-
What will be the trigger system of the P10? Will it be an Omega system or something newer and simpler?
-
What will be the trigger system of the P10? Will it be an Omega system or something newer and simpler?
Striker fired system completely different from standard 75's or Omega system. Think glock style systems.
-
A new learning opportunity for us!! And a new assembly/disassembly video, probably a lot shorter than the P series videos.
Having owned only one striker fired gun, a Kahr, and having never really taken it apart other than a field strip, I look forward to the full size version, 4.5-5" barrel, in 9mm, if I can wait that long. P-07 fills this current version size nitch nicely. No hurry here from a practical standpoint, but that never stopped me before.
Joe
-
A full size P-12 to come? ;)
I assume it will have the same tight, accurate, bushingless design as the P-07 and P-09?
I'm excited. I have no aversion to strikers or plastic. Gimme, gimme. I won't get my hands on one (maybe 2) soon enough.
-
Maybe in 8 years, when they announce the '75B 50th Anniversary' pistol, we'll also see another limited edition pistol:
1. Options available for both polymer and all-steel (NP3) frames with the classic CZ ergos.
1a. Coco grips come standard on the steel version.
2. Striker fired SA with safety, and flat match trigger with no dingus
3. Slide-in-frame design
4. Mags and sights interchangeable with the 75 series
5. Short dust cover like the 75B.
6. Maybe a rail. I don't know - I prefer the aesthetics without a rail, but the 92A3 manages to look ok with a rail on it
7. Optics ready
8. Offer to sell a limited set of both versions together with matching serial numbers and a carved wood display box for mucho $$$$.
The idea here would be to 'modernize' the 75B while keeping as much of the old design as possible.
The materials are updated (either polymer, or NP3 coated steel), and the striker with safety is a callback to the old 75's trigger & manual of arms. Hopefully, the presence of a manual safety also merits the removal of the trigger dingus. A pre-milled slide for optics just seems like a good feature to have; I think we're headed for all duty pistols having red dots. I prefer the non-railed look, but if we're trying to modernize a classic design...
It might not be possible (I don't know if a polymer frame can keep the same external dimensions as the 75B, not to mention needing a new takedown method), but that would be one of the most unique guns on the market (and a heck of a shooter to boot). It'd also be interesting to see which versions sell the best - NP3 is expensive, but I'd imagine 75 fans preferring steel.
-
A full size P-12 to come?
Hmm...
A 5.5" version with G34/XDM Competition slide lightening, fiber optic front sight with blacked out adjustable rear...
Hmm...
-
Perhaps a CZ 97 in 'Podbyrin 9.2mm'? ;D
-
Will interesting to see what Schmeky and Stuart and crews can wring out of this new mechanism.
-
Anyone notice the AD bumpfire double at 12:27? Is that what I'm seeing? It may indeed be like the PPQ trigger. O0
-
Anyone notice the AD bumpfire double at 12:27? Is that what I'm seeing? It may indeed be like the PPQ trigger. O0
Sure looks like it to me too.
-
Anyone notice the AD bumpfire double at 12:27? Is that what I'm seeing?
If not, I only counted 14 rounds.
-
Anyone notice the AD bumpfire double at 12:27? Is that what I'm seeing?
If not, I only counted 14 rounds.
I'm pretty sure that's what it was. The only other possibility I could think of is that there's was a glitch in the recording and a fraction of a second of video is missing. He compared the trigger to the PPQ, but said it was superior. He talked about the super short reset. When the PPQ first came out, I heard/read a couple of references to people having accidental doubles.
I LOVE the PPQ trigger. I hope his comparison is accurate.
-
Anyone notice the AD bumpfire double at 12:27? Is that what I'm seeing? It may indeed be like the PPQ trigger. O0
I didn't catch that - what's about the PPQ trigger? Never laid a finger on that one, either.
-
The Walther PPQ was IMO the first genuinely good trigger for a striker-fired pistol. The Caracal was supposed to be near its equal (never fired one), but the Caracal is more or less a ghost now in the U.S.. I shoot a VP9 in matches, and although I operate the trigger well, I can't help but think every now and then how kind of crappy it feels relative to my ShadowLine with CZC Comp Hammer that I did, or the 97BE David did for me. The VP9 is good for a striker, but it's not outright good. The PPQ is.
The PPQ has a clean break. The pull weight is about 4.5 pounds, but it's one of those clean breaks that makes it feel like much less. Striker-fired pistols tend to have spongy, creepy, stagy, stacking triggers. The PPQ does not.
The PPQ also has a very short reset. And between the short reset and the short, clean break, there were some reports soon after its release of people bump-firing it during matches, where the recoil was shifting the pistol enough in the hand to allow the trigger to reset, then when the pistol lurched back forward when the slide slammed back home, it depressed the trigger and bang. Surprise! ;)
Anyway, MAC compares the P-10 trigger positively to the PPQ trigger and comments on the extremely short reset. Then he had an AD double at 12:27, seemingly at a full-auto RoF, so I'm wondering if maybe the trigger is as short and clean and with as short a reset as he is claiming, like the PPQ. ;) I can dream. ;)
-
I didn't catch that - what's about the PPQ trigger? Never laid a finger on that one, either.
I will echo everything IDescribe mentioned about the PPQ. I have sold a few PPQ M2's lately. We've had just about every popular striker fired gun through the shop since I've worked there, and the PPQ by had the best trigger by a landslide. If the CZ is every bit as good (or better) then it should have no trouble selling even in the saturated striker fired market.
-
Having started on a BHP I'm a big 'exposed hammer' guy, but I'd consider one of these !!
Wow !!
-
The guy (Tim?) from MAC said he heard they might ship in December, but the official unveiling is SHOT Show, so hopefully late January, early February? Dare I hope? ;D
-
I would bet first quarter 2017. :)
-
I want one.
-
If the P-10 trigger is better than a PPQ then I'm interested. 8)
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
Doubtful. I would hazard a guess that you will need P-07/09 sights for the 10.
-
Plus we'll have a new "P-10" sub forum.
-
I would bet first quarter 2017. :)
The guy I know at CZ says January (bet there's a chance it's the same guy Armoredman knows)....
BA
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
I would bet first quarter 2017. :)
The guy I know at CZ says January (bet there's a chance it's the same guy Armoredman knows)....
BA
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That would be in the first quarter, now wouldn't it? ;D
-
Thread on another forum called it the "Glock Killer". I think it would take more than a vastly improved sidearm to topple Glock Tower...maybe...;)
-
Thread on another forum called it the "Glock Killer". I think it would take more than a vastly improved sidearm to topple Glock Tower...maybe...;)
if the design of the czp10 is as simple as the glock system when detail stripping, then it will topple the G.
I loved the cz spo1 shadow but i picked the glock because w glock I can be my own armorer/gunsmith.
-
Thread on another forum called it the "Glock Killer". I think it would take more than a vastly improved sidearm to topple Glock Tower...maybe...;)
I think so too. A ton of people have a lot invested in Glocks to make switching to anything else feasible.
-
Thread on another forum called it the "Glock Killer". I think it would take more than a vastly improved sidearm to topple Glock Tower...maybe...;)
I think so too. A ton of people have a lot invested in Glocks to make switching to anything else feasible.
If the gun is everything Tim from the Military Arms Channel says it, and comes in at a very attractive price, it might not topple the Glock 19 model, but it will surely put a hurting on their model 19 sales. Just going to have to wait and see what happens. Going to be very interesting though.
rich63
-
I loved the cz spo1 shadow but i picked the glock because w glock I can be my own armorer/gunsmith.
I purchased my first CZ years ago and became my own armorer/gunsmith overnight. I have Cajunized and worked on all my CZs one time or another.
-
Plus we'll have a new "P-10" sub forum.
Nope.
There is a full sized P-10 coming too, or so we hear.
-
The "C" is kind of a giveaway. Who knows how many models they will make from this one sidearm? I'm thinking many.
-
The "C" is kind of a giveaway. Who knows how many models they will make from this one sidearm? I'm thinking many.
I'd love to have a 5" barrel P-09 or P-10, but I'd settle for a 4.6" P-10, at least to try. I don't need the barrel length, I need the weight, kinda like putting a steel guide rod in a frame that runs fine with a polymer one. If the lock up and machining tolerances are as tight as the P-09/07, it will be a shooter equivalent to the hammer guns, which is excellent. If they loosen up the tolerances for dirty, desert, military service, I'm not interested.
Joe
-
I loved the cz spo1 shadow but i picked the glock because w glock I can be my own armorer/gunsmith.
I purchased my first CZ years ago and became my own armorer/gunsmith overnight. I have Cajunized and worked on all my CZs one time or another.
Not all people are like you sir.
Most people choose glock because of its simplicity.
-
I think a lot of people choose Glock for name recognition and LE users. It is simple, that certain, but I haven't found any handgun that is difficult to use, other than single action pistols where I have to remember to wipe the safety off. :) That's just me, of course, lots of people still swear by the 1911 syle sidearm and the Browning HP. It's all personal prefernce - if we all liked exactly the same thing it would be a boring world, indeed. :D
-
CZ-USA has announced that the P-10C magazines will have an MSRP of $35. Given that the P-07 and P-09 standar mags MSRP were $46, I'll call that a win.
-
Not bad at all.
-
Must be thinner than my P07, cause I can't stuff my P07 into any of my G19 holsters!
I am really hoping for a subcompact to follow. Would also love a sub P07.
Dyin for a single stack, while I am at it:)
-
I talked to my FFL guy last week, I'm first on his list for a P10C. He got me a P09 when they first hit the states when they came out, Ive got my fingers crossed for this one!!!
-
As a lefty, it looks good to me. Wish the mags were a little cheaper (someone posted above they will cost $35). That being said, I do love my Glock 17. Even though I'm trying to transition to SA 9mm, I will likely keep the 17. Owned one before, sold it and immediately regretted it (although I regret selling all the guns I've sold in the past other than the Ruger P95 DAO).
-
New video just posted from TTAG. He said they'll have a write up soon. Check out his targets from 25 yards. Very impressive.
https://youtu.be/ESh3wW9rc5I
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
Doubtful. I would hazard a guess that you will need P-07/09 sights for the 10.
The CZ USA rep told me that the front sight cut is the same as the P07 but the rear has a unique cut.
-
Dawson Precision will have something quickly.
All I really need Day 1 is the fiber optic front, which I can order as soon as I know the right height. I can black out the rear until someone makes a good rear for it.
-
I hope Springer Precision can make me a red dot mount in a hurry. Or I can get a slide cut.
Joe
-
Saw 7 new posts and got excited that the 10C started hitting stores. Looking to make it my first CZ
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I say it is a striker fire CZ 75 SP01!
-
https://youtu.be/ESh3wW9rc5I
-
Regarding the P-10C magazine compatibility with the P-07:
I compared the CZ photo of their new P-10C magazine against my recently purchased P-07 magazine.
Both the P-07 and P-10 magazines have the two fenestrations on the lateral edges of the front. The P-10, however, has a new cutout in the upper center of the front of the mag. Is this new, single upper cutout for the P-10 ambidextrous release?
That would explain how the new P-10 mag is also backward compatible with the P-07...
(http://i.imgur.com/vFfoOoN.png)
-
It would have been better IMHO if they had slide-in-frame like CZs are known for.
-
https://youtu.be/ESh3wW9rc5I
Wow. I think I will be buying one of those this year, might even trade off a lightly used Glock 2nd Gen 19 it will replace.
-
Yes, the new magazines for the P10C are compatible with the P-07. It is very likely that all new P-07 magazines and probably P-09 magazines will be engineered with this cutout in place for total compatability.
-
That is what I've read. From here on forward, it's all one magazine family with cross-compatibility. If you want your current P-07/09 mags to work with the P-10 series, however, you will need to cut/drill in the center notch yourself.
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
Doubtful. I would hazard a guess that you will need P-07/09 sights for the 10.
The CZ USA rep told me that the front sight cut is the same as the P07 but the rear has a unique cut.
Unique as in different from a P-07 or unique as in that it is different from the Kadet/85/etc dovetail?
I will need to get a red dot mount for one as soon as possible is why I'm asking.
Joe
-
The P-10 looks very interesting, I look forward to trying one.
-
It would have been better IMHO if they had slide-in-frame like CZs are known for.
Metal slides don't ride on polymer frames internally OR externally, else the metal would chew up the polymer. That's how Glocks/M&P/XD/VP9/PPQ/etc are designed. You might be thinking "Ah ha! But the P-07/09 pistols are slide-in-frame designs...," and you'd be technically sorta kinda correct, but if you will look at your P-07/09, you will see that it has a metal insert in the polymer frame just like Glock and the others, and that is really what the slide rides on. All the polymer frame does it get things lined up when you reassemble. It's a loose fit otherwise.
In a polymer, it's no longer doing a real job, and at that point, it goes from being a feature to a constraint. It's good they didn't restrict themselves in that fashion.
-
It would have been better IMHO if they had slide-in-frame like CZs are known for.
Metal slides don't ride on polymer frames internally OR externally, else the metal would chew up the polymer. That's how Glocks/M&P/XD/VP9/PPQ/etc are designed. You might be thinking "Ah ha! But the P-07/09 pistols are slide-in-frame designs...," and you'd be technically sorta kinda correct, but if you will look at your P-07/09, you will see that it has a metal insert in the polymer frame just like Glock and the others, and that is really what the slide rides on. All the polymer frame does it get things lined up when you reassemble. It's a loose fit otherwise.
How is it a constraint? Is it a constraint in the P07/P09? I guess I don't get the point. My understanding is the CZ slide-in-frame design is to lower the bore axis. I had a P07, which I gave to my oldest grandson, and I have a Glock 19 - so I know the slides don't ride on polymer frames, but rather on metal inserts.
In a polymer, it's no longer doing a real job, and at that point, it goes from being a feature to a constraint. It's good they didn't restrict themselves in that fashion.
-
How is it a constraint? Is it a constraint in the P07/P09? I guess I don't get the point.
Every design requirement is a constraint. If there's a benefit tothe requirement, you might call it a feature. But if there's no real benefit to it, then it's nothing more than a constraint.
My understanding is the CZ slide-in-frame design is to lower the bore axis.
I've heard that. I've also heard it makes them more accurate. I suspect both are brand myths.
Rather than derail the thread with gun design theory, the few different ways you can lower bore axis, and how slide-in/slide-out need not affect any of them, I'll just suggest that going the design path of the Glock, which has an exceedingly low bore axis, is probably a pretty good path to a low bore axis. ;)
-
I don't think a copycat product with a similar price point is going to make a huge dent in the Glock market share any more than CZ clones have taken significant market share away from CZ. Product differentiation is lacking. That's why I belive CZ should have retained their signature slide-in-frame design. Even if slide-in-frame doesn't lower the bore axis to be lower than a Glock (by even a little), it helps to keep external debris out of the pistol. The introduction of this pistol may bring overall prices of Glocks (and CZ's version of a Glock) down - especially if the two companies get into a war over market share.
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
Doubtful. I would hazard a guess that you will need P-07/09 sights for the 10.
The CZ USA rep told me that the front sight cut is the same as the P07 but the rear has a unique cut.
Unique as in different from a P-07 or unique as in that it is different from the Kadet/85/etc dovetail?
I will need to get a red dot mount for one as soon as possible is why I'm asking.
Joe
He just said unique in his reply, which makes me think it'll have a different depth than other CZs. I'll just black out the rear dots and put on my preferred front fiber once I know the front sight height of the P10 I end up with. I do like the style and function of the factory rear, just not the dots.
-
more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/)
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
I paid $500 for my gen 4 Glock 19 at a gun show brand new. If you are LE or first responder, a gun store here in Oklahoma is selling brand new Glock 19 gen 4s for $425.
I could have bought a Canik (CZ clone) for around $300, but I like the real deal CZs so I paid about $450.00 for the SP01 Compact. Sometimes a price differential is overcome by factors such as after purchase service and availability of upgrade/replacement parts.
If people start buying the P-10C instead of the Glock, the price of Glocks will fall. Good old capitalistic competition at work.
-
more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/)
Wow. This guy really likes the P10C - says its better than a Glock 19 in every way. Maybe I was wrong... Time and market share will tell. The Glock is the gun of preference for SF warriors and that is a selling point that will be hard to overcome.
-
Cz p10 will fit on a g19 holster.. question, will the sites of g19 also compatible with the czp10?
Doubtful. I would hazard a guess that you will need P-07/09 sights for the 10.
The CZ USA rep told me that the front sight cut is the same as the P07 but the rear has a unique cut.
Unique as in different from a P-07 or unique as in that it is different from the Kadet/85/etc dovetail?
I will need to get a red dot mount for one as soon as possible is why I'm asking.
Joe
He just said unique in his reply, which makes me think it'll have a different depth than other CZs. I'll just black out the rear dots and put on my preferred front fiber once I know the front sight height of the P10 I end up with. I do like the style and function of the factory rear, just not the dots.
In the T.A.G. Link Bossgobbler posted, they say the rear is the same dovetail as the Shadow 2.
-
TTAG also said the bore axis is not as low as a Glock... or rather, that one can't grip as high which is saying the same thing.
-
TTAG also said the bore axis is not as low as a Glock... or rather, that one can't grip as high which is saying the same thing.
From what I saw in the videos, the physical bore axis distance isn't slowing anyone down. But what do I know, I used to shoot IDPA with a SIG, one of the tallest bore axis guns out there. If the dimension is no more than that of a P-07/09, I'm happy. I don't care about comparisons to a Glock since it isn't even under consideration.
Joe
-
TTAG also said the bore axis is not as low as a Glock... or rather, that one can't grip as high which is saying the same thing.
From what I saw in the videos, the physical bore axis distance isn't slowing anyone down. But what do I know, I used to shoot IDPA with a SIG, one of the tallest bore axis guns out there. If the dimension is no more than that of a P-07/09, I'm happy. I don't care about comparisons to a Glock since it isn't even under consideration.
Joe
I shot IPSC production with a SIG 226 9mm and you are right SIG has one of the tallest bore axis' out there. I can shoot a Glock much faster and with better control than a SIG. The comparisons to Glock derive from the big picture fact that CZ is directly challenging Glock in the market - whether or not you or I are considering them. I have one Glock and that is enough for me - it rarely gets shot (I currently have about 5 SIGs and they rarely get shot also). I prefer all-metal pistols myself (preferrably all-steel CZs), but I may buy a P-10 after they have been in people's hands and if the reviews are good. In the video I believe he mentions shooting "reloads" so who knows how soft the ammo is. :)
-
Agreed, CZ can and has to do the public comparisons to a Glock, but I don't need to from a personal standpoint, although I may have to borrow one from my next door neigbor to do a secret, private comparison, for myself, that is. I don't want anyone knowing I have actually shot one. :) :)
Joe
-
Agreed, CZ can and has to do the public comparisons to a Glock, but I don't need to from a personal standpoint, although I may have to borrow one from my next door neigbor to do a secret, private comparison, for myself, that is. I don't want anyone knowing I have actually shot one. :) :)
Joe
Ha, ha! Good one. O0 O0
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
Not bad. I'm checking with my two LGS to see when/how much. They run their 19s for $550 so very curious
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/)
Thanks for the link. 'Been following the P10c threads with interest. Don't really 'need' another striker-fired polymer 9mm?..but, then again, I don't have one in FDE, so maybe ;)?.in any case, more interested to see how the .40 shoots when they finally come out and are reviewed.
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
Not bad. I'm checking with my two LGS to see when/how much. They run their 19s for $550 so very curious
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Def not bad, same store sold me my P09 Urban Grey for $600. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model. I had Acadamy track down a P09 in UG for $599 but they jerked me around for weeks and wanted to charge me to transfer from store to store; needless to say that guns is still on their shelf. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model.
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
Not bad. I'm checking with my two LGS to see when/how much. They run their 19s for $550 so very curious
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Def not bad, same store sold me my P09 Urban Grey for $600. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model. I had Acadamy track down a P09 in UG for $599 but they jerked me around for weeks and wanted to charge me to transfer from store to store; needless to say that guns is still on their shelf. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model.
Same. Gander Mtn has a few in shop but right at MSRP, if not more. One LGS says they doubt they'll get any as they rarely carry CZ but my go to LGS can backorder an FDE model for $475 when they come out. May take him up on that
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
My local gun store guy says when the arrive I can get one for $479. My local Acadamy has a G19 from $569. Almost $100 makes that a diff price point for me.
Not bad. I'm checking with my two LGS to see when/how much. They run their 19s for $550 so very curious
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Def not bad, same store sold me my P09 Urban Grey for $600. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model. I had Acadamy track down a P09 in UG for $599 but they jerked me around for weeks and wanted to charge me to transfer from store to store; needless to say that guns is still on their shelf. They have a SP01 Urban Grey, but at MSRP. CZ's are very pretty rare around here depending on the model.
Same. Gander Mtn has a few in shop but right at MSRP, if not more. One LGS says they doubt they'll get any as they rarely carry CZ but my go to LGS can backorder an FDE model for $475 when they come out. May take him up on that
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I got my P09 for $375 new from my LGS. I took that price to my local Gander and they didn't believe me. It was fantastic.
-
Did I see or hear this as correct? The slide will lock back after the last round is fired, you hit the mag release, mag drops, you insert a new mag and when the new mag locks, the slide release automatically releases and a round is chambered. No having to push the slide release or do the overhand pull release. The act of locking in a fresh mag releases the slide lock.
-
https://youtu.be/h-ptLPmSdL4
Well, of course, MAC is selling these Glock clones to the public, so no wonder they're hawking them in the video.
I hate it.
Barf.
If I wanted a Glock / striker, I would have bought a Glock / striker pistol. But I hate Glocks / strikers.
I would buy a P-07, probably the only plastic gun I would buy, but I'd rather have a CZ75 or a Rami.
I can see why this is in the "general" gun forum, because this is not a CZ.
I guess people who buy these will realize their folly when the get a hard primer or a misfire and they can't just squeeze the trigger DA to get it running again.
-
I won't believe any of this until the Hickok45 review comes out !!
O0
-
Did I hear this as correct? ...you insert a new mag and... the slide release automatically releases and a round is chambered.
Yes, you heard that correctly. It's typically referred to as auto-forward.
The way you described it -- "When the new mag locks..." sort of suggests there's a mechanism designed to cause this. That's not quite what's happening. Here's how the slide stop is supposed to work:
If you will look at one of your magazines empty, you will see a notch in the front left "nose" of the follower. That notch lines up with the slide release. That notch allows the follower to get high enough that the last bullet in the mag is high enough to get caught be the slide and driven forward into the chamber without the follower pushing up on the slide stop. Once the last bullet is out of the mag, the next time the pistol is fired, the follower will be high enough to push up the slide stop, and that is what locks the slide back.
Now, with pistols that will auto forward, the loaded magazine is interacting with the slide stop with a little bit of violence and knocking it out of engagement. It typically requires significant force to produce the effect. My CZ P-09 and HK VP9 do it easily enough that driving the mag home deliberately and firmly with moderate force will auto-forward the slide every time. All the other semi-automatic pistols I own, including a CZ-75 Shadow Line, require me to really slam the mag home harder than what I am comfortable doing. When I use the VP9 (current competition gun) in competition under the clock, I auto-forward every reload from slide lock. When I have used the 75 Shadow Line in competition (it's been a while), I rack the slide manually.
Just because you see a reviewer say the P-10 does this doesn't mean it's a designed feature, nor does it mean that all samples will auto-forward easily. I haven't seen CZ promote it as a feature (which doesn't mean they haven't), and unless I see CZ promoting it, I won't assume my samples of the P-10 will auto-forward easily until I get them in hand and check them. I hope they do, but I won't complain they're not working right if they don't. ;)
-
I won't believe any of this until the Hickok45 review comes out !!
O0
He'll do what he always does. He'll tell you how good the pistol is, then tell you how much he likes his Glocks. O0
-
He'll do what he always does. He'll tell you how good the pistol is, then tell you how much he likes his Glocks. O0
Yup! Pretty much that! ::)
-
Did I see or hear this as correct? The slide will lock back after the last round is fired, you hit the mag release, mag drops, you insert a new mag and when the new mag locks, the slide release automatically releases and a round is chambered. No having to push the slide release or do the overhand pull release. The act of locking in a fresh mag releases the slide lock.
It will be interesting to see if this is a design feature. The slide on a Mauser HSc is only released by inserting a magazine (full or empty, either works).
-
I hate it.
Barf.
If I wanted a Glock / striker, I would have bought a Glock / striker pistol. But I hate Glocks / strikers.
I would buy a P-07, probably the only plastic gun I would buy, but I'd rather have a CZ75 or a Rami.
I can see why this is in the "general" gun forum, because this is not a CZ.
I guess people who buy these will realize their folly when the get a hard primer or a misfire and they can't just squeeze the trigger DA to get it running again.
[/quote]
Then just buy something else.
-
more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/12/jeremy-s/gun-review-cz-p-10-c/)
Wow. This guy really likes the P10C - says its better than a Glock 19 in every way. Maybe I was wrong... Time and market share will tell. The Glock is the gun of preference for SF warriors and that is a selling point that will be hard to overcome.
Yeah, when I heard that I thought "what a DA, you just got this pistol, it's a pre-production, its got NO military or LE or street credentials, NO long term reliability test yet, NO known or publicized torture test and you say it's better than the G19 in EVERY WAY - how long has the G19 been in production?"
Not saying anything bad about this P-10 but come on man. It's got a lot to prove before it can be called "better than the G19 in every way".
I hope it does well. As long as the first reports are good I'm getting a FDE model but I sure as Hell am not getting rid of my G19.
-
Just because you see a reviewer say the P-10 does this doesn't mean it's a designed feature, nor does it mean that all samples will auto-forward easily. I haven't seen CZ promote it as a feature (which doesn't mean they haven't), and unless I see CZ promoting it, I won't assume my samples of the P-10 will auto-forward easily until I get them in hand and check them. I hope they do, but I won't complain they're not working right if they don't. ;)
[/quote]
Good point. The video is the first time I've heard anyone describe this effect as an intentional design feature. Makes mewonder about other claims he made in the video...
-
I have an older Bersa Thunder .380. Mine auto forwards, or as I like to call it a tactical reload, but It didn't always do it. It bothered me at first, but then I saw people saying it was a design feature, which I don't believe, but I have moved on.
I'm going to guess that not being a production model it does the above.
-
Most of my CZs "auto-forward." I have a Les Baer 1911 in .45 that wouldn't do it, so a buddy of mine filed on the slide stop to make it do it. I'm not sure if my SIGs auto-forward or not - I haven't shot a SIG in competition since I bought my first CZ.
My Sphinxes auto-forward, but for some strange reason when I make it happen in a match it won't chamber a round about half the time, even though it always works fine on the practice range - strange.
My Glock 19 auto-forwards well too.
-
I must have this. I will have this.
It appears to be everything I wish my G19 was...
-
I hate it.
Barf.
If I wanted a Glock / striker, I would have bought a Glock / striker pistol. But I hate Glocks / strikers.
I would buy a P-07, probably the only plastic gun I would buy, but I'd rather have a CZ75 or a Rami.
I can see why this is in the "general" gun forum, because this is not a CZ.
I guess people who buy these will realize their folly when the get a hard primer or a misfire and they can't just squeeze the trigger DA to get it running again.
Then just buy something else.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I definitely will buy something else. I've tried Glocks and everything about them is wrong: the ergonomics, the trigger, the recoil impulse. On the other hand, CZ75s and their variants are just about perfect in my hands, but that's just me and millions of other shooters.
I can see why CZ built this gun to capitalize on the Glock fad. The DA only CZ 100 was a failure, but the P-07 / P-09 are probably the best plastic guns ever made because they are still CZs in design and function. The CZ P10 may be the best Glock ever made, but it's still a Glock clone - a collection of compromises, the worst of which is the striker mechanism, apparently designed to keep inept cops from shooting themselves or suspects in handcuffs. Striker fire must have been designed by and for administrators and bean counters and traffic cops who were issued guns but don't shoot them, so they want something light to carry around on their hips.
Can somebody explain to me what they think a striker does that a CZ75 DA/SA or even a SA trigger doesn't do a hundred times better?
-
I have an older Bersa Thunder .380. Mine auto forwards, or as I like to call it a tactical reload, but It didn't always do it. It bothered me at first, but then I saw people saying it was a design feature, which I don't believe, but I have moved on.
My older Bersa 380CC does this as well. And I, like you, do not think it's by design as it didn't use to this. But it's just a range gun for me now so no biggie to me either.
-
"Can somebody explain to me what they think a striker does that a CZ75 DA/SA or even a SA trigger doesn't do a hundred times better?"
For one it appears to allow a higher hold than a hammer fired gun. Aside from that, the thing it does best is appeal to people who prefer striker fired guns. To me, that's enough reason to produce it. I wouldn't buy a Chevy Volt, but I would buy a Corvette Z06. That's no reason to get angry at the Volt. I hope CZ sells a million of them. I prefer hammer guns but I'll buy a P10. It looks more comfortable to hold than my P-07. If they'd give the 07 some hips I'd buy that one too.
-
Just my guess on your question: It has a LOT simpler action. The parts are simpler, cheaper and easier to mass produce.
The simpler mechanism is easier to work on, clean and replace when needed. It's lighter for the defensive pistol buyers.
The striker fired plastic market is well-established.
Final result: lower cost to build with less expensive parts equals greater profits, IF the market is there..
Like you, a well tuned steel/metal hammer fired semi auto pistol can't be beat "for the the shooter". The 1911 isn't going away.....yet.
-
Earl and 1SOW have already posted good responses to the "why a striker fired CZ when a good hammer fired gun is 100x better".
I'll add to it. Most new IDPA shooters dread learning to shoot a DA/SA gun and have trouble learning to shoot the first shot DA. This alone has sold a lot of Glocks and other striker fired guns. I went through that learning curve and actually prefer DA/SA. But new shooters are confused for a few sessions, that's all.
But the main reason for a striker fired followup to the P-07/09 is the untapped Bullseye competition market!! :) :) I'm sure the low bore axis and light weight will make a big difference in slow fire 50 yards single hand 10 shots in 10 minutes. Then there is rapid fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds, 25 yards single hand standing. Can't beat a striker gun for that!
Seriously, the gun is simple and cheaper to make. If it can compete with the other "modern" firearms for some of the newer shooters' money, good for CZ. I will push the new gun to its accuracy limits, and let others try it in run and gun. It might work for both, but certainly won't be optimum for bullseye, any more than a P-09/07 is. But I should be able to score well with one anyway.
I never saw a firearm I didn't like in some way. Mass production of firearms is driven by a lot more than experienced shooter's desires, that's for sure.
Joe
-
The primary advantage on the shooter's end, as Earl Keese indicated, is bore axis (or how "high" you can grip the gun).
A secondary advantage is weight.
-
I have an older Bersa Thunder .380. Mine auto forwards, or as I like to call it a tactical reload, but It didn't always do it. It bothered me at first, but then I saw people saying it was a design feature, which I don't believe, but I have moved on.
My older Bersa 380CC does this as well. And I, like you, do not think it's by design as it didn't use to this. But it's just a range gun for me now so no biggie to me either.
Exactly. I love the gun too, trigger is phenomenal for such a cheap little gun. It is now my gym bag gun and I bust it out when .380 goes on sale... which is never lol.
Back on topic, it isn't really a Glock clone, most striker fire guns seem to resemble Glock's on the inside, but ascetically they made it a little blocky to fit the G19 holsters.
Things like glock:
Take down levers.
Slide Stop.
Things not Glock:
The slide plays on the P-series slide.
Has the cz grip angle with a palm swell and serious texturing.
P-series trigger guard.
1913 rail.
Sights.
P-series mags.
Doesn't look like trash.
Seems more like a P-series striker fired clone than a Glock clone.
-
And, of course, the non-Glock trigger. 8)
-
^The most important part lol.
-
Hell I'm buying one of them on looks alone over a glock. Can anyone honestly say the P10 isn't a better looking gun period. If so you may want to see a shrink. It's so funny how people get so defensive over there blocks heck I've got a 26 I like it very much but at there price point there now where near a CZ. And I can see these making a dent in the glock market easily. 40yrs ago you couldn't if you said cops would replace there 1911s or the military as well you would be laughed at by everyone the world changes period companies innovate if not you go out and get replaced CZs have been around longer and have a bigger market easily than glock there not that worried about the US market they don't have to have it they have military and LE contracts all over the world come on guys. I'm just excited to get one. Does anyone have any idea of the release date to the public.
Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
-
"Can somebody explain to me what they think a striker does that a CZ75 DA/SA or even a SA trigger doesn't do a hundred times better?"
For one it appears to allow a higher hold than a hammer fired gun. Aside from that, the thing it does best is appeal to people who prefer striker fired guns. To me, that's enough reason to produce it. I wouldn't buy a Chevy Volt, but I would buy a Corvette Z06. That's no reason to get angry at the Volt. I hope CZ sells a million of them. I prefer hammer guns but I'll buy a P10. It looks more comfortable to hold than my P-07. If they'd give the 07 some hips I'd buy that one too.
On the contrary, I can't stand the Volt, Leaf, Prius, etc. when they trundle down the highway and get in my way.
Similarly, I hate Glocks and all the striker fired Glock clones clogging up the shelves in gun shops as they take up space that could otherwise be used for other, much better alternatives.
Sure, Glocks and their clones are popular because they're cheap, cheap to build and highly profitable. They aren't better guns to have in a fire fight, which is what my guns are for, primarily. For that reason, I hate to see CZ divert resources to this Glock clone because it's going to negatively impact production of their much better CZ75 pistols. Hopefully, if CZ continues in this folly, they'll have the P-10 production diverted to Taiwan, Brazil, Croatia or wherever.
That's one of the reasons I've switched from SIG to CZ, SIG ramped up their production and diversified to so many types of pistols (including striker fired Glock clones) that their quality control went to bleep, even in the formerly outstanding P220, P229, P239, etc. SIG's profits may have jumped up, but I have little confidence in their quality control these days after I bought a badly machined "custom shop" P239.
-
Earl and 1SOW have already posted good responses to the "why a striker fired CZ when a good hammer fired gun is 100x better".
I'll add to it. Most new IDPA shooters dread learning to shoot a DA/SA gun and have trouble learning to shoot the first shot DA. This alone has sold a lot of Glocks and other striker fired guns. I went through that learning curve and actually prefer DA/SA. But new shooters are confused for a few sessions, that's all.
But the main reason for a striker fired followup to the P-07/09 is the untapped Bullseye competition market!! :) :) I'm sure the low bore axis and light weight will make a big difference in slow fire 50 yards single hand 10 shots in 10 minutes. Then there is rapid fire, 5 shots in 10 seconds, 25 yards single hand standing. Can't beat a striker gun for that!
Seriously, the gun is simple and cheaper to make. If it can compete with the other "modern" firearms for some of the newer shooters' money, good for CZ. I will push the new gun to its accuracy limits, and let others try it in run and gun. It might work for both, but certainly won't be optimum for bullseye, any more than a P-09/07 is. But I should be able to score well with one anyway.
I never saw a firearm I didn't like in some way. Mass production of firearms is driven by a lot more than experienced shooter's desires, that's for sure.
Joe
Well, I wouldn't buy a pistol that I'm going to stake my life on because it's cheaper and more profitable for the manufacturer. Whatever criterion you have, there are guns that do everything a Glock does, only they do it better (e.g. the CZ75s). Even if I have to pay a few dollars to get a better gun than a Glock, my life is worth it. The only advantage I see with a Glock is that it's lighter (but bulkier) to carry (not an advantage when actually fired), so it appeals to people who want or have to carry a handgun, but don't care much about shooting it -- the Glock & clones are perfect in that capacity.
IDPA and all that stuff are just games. Hit a hard primer / misfire in a SHTF situation with a Glock and you could be dead before you clear it.
The only thing certain is Murphy's Law - if something's going to fail, it's going to fail at the worst possible moment. I've had misfires at the range, even with "quality" ammunition. Every time with a DA/SA, all I've had to do was squeeze the trigger again to get it shooting. That's a big advantage over the strikers, along with everything else a quality DA/SA does better than a Glock / striker fired clone.
-
.....I hate to see CZ divert resources to this Glock clone because it's going to negatively impact production of their much better CZ75 pistol.....
While I'm taking a 'wait and see' on the P-10C.....I'm afraid this is quite the truth....which makes it even less likely we'll see more of the 'less popular' models here in the states (and, fewer of the more popular ones as well). Hope that's not the case, but.....
-
.....I hate to see CZ divert resources to this Glock clone because it's going to negatively impact production of their much better CZ75 pistol.....
While I'm taking a 'wait and see' on the P-10C.....I'm afraid this is quite the truth....which makes it even less likely we'll see more of the 'less popular' models here in the states (and, fewer of the more popular ones as well). Hope that's not the case, but.....
Yeah, I wouldn't buy one, especially as a CZ aficionado, as it will only encourage CZ to move forward in this Glock clone folly and bite us in the ass by diverting production from the CZ75 series of pistols that we all know and love.
Leave the P10 to those misinformed folks who refer to all semi-auto pistols as "Glocks."
-
I have a hard time being terribly negative about a pistol with a firing pin energized by a spring instead of being whacked by a hammer. Even my Savage 308 bolt rifle has a spring loaded firing pin instead of a hammer. I believe that was all invented before Glock tried it in a pistol.
All I care about is how the trigger feels and the ergonomics. I am not biased against striker fired guns simply because they are strikers. I just don't like the ergonomics or the trigger feel of the few striker fired guns I've shot so far and I've been very happy with the DA/SA CZs and Sigs I have purchased.
I am looking forward to trying a CZ striker fired pistol.
Joe
-
I, personally, only care about reliability and size. I'd swap my Kahr CM-9 for a P-05C. ;D
The P-10C is too big for what I want.
-
I, personally, only care about reliability and size. I'd swap my Kahr CM-9 for a P-05C. ;D
The P-10C is too big for what I want.
+1.
I've got a P-07. It's too big for EDC. I've got a RAMI. It's too fat for EDC.
Ditched my Kahr MK-9 because it suffered reliability issues and recoiled more than an all steel gun should.
The LCP II is starting to look better and better. I'd much rather have a CZ, but...
-
Has this been posted yet?
He seems to like it and says it should be on shelves in a couple days?!
https://youtu.be/D5OpGvW-GKQ
-
Not in here, but in the general section. Not a negative comment on the gun yet.
-
I, personally, only care about reliability and size. I'd swap my Kahr CM-9 for a P-05C. ;D
The P-10C is too big for what I want.
And what is this P-05C?
-
I'm guessing hopeful wishing. Rami sized hopeful wishing[emoji2]
-
I, personally, only care about reliability and size. I'd swap my Kahr CM-9 for a P-05C. ;D
The P-10C is too big for what I want.
And what is this P-05C?
It is indeed wishful thinking. It would be a pocket sized 9mm from CZ, like the Kahr.
-
Actually, the thing to remember is this one came in with "C" on the slide, meaning there will be other variants - who knows if there will be a single stack or subcompact concealable model? Heck, if they do, betcha it fits in G-26 holsters!
-
I would totally snap up a single stack. Been shooting my brothers M&P 9mm Performance Center and really dig it.
-
Instagram post today from CZUSA stated first P-10s "expected before the end of the month."
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Sparks Firearms (Universal City, TX) posted a photo to their Facebook page saying that CZ-USA told them that the January 2017 shipment to the US would be 1000. They said that they were trying to get some allocated to them.
-
Sparks Firearms (Universal City, TX) posted a photo to their Facebook page saying that CZ-USA told them that the January 2017 shipment to the US would be 1000. They said that they were trying to get some allocated to them.
Dong know a lot about what a typical shipment is but 1000 seems low for the demand. Guess those of us on backorder will be waiting for some time?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
rdc, U.C. is just a few minutes away. Maybe I can get a look/touchy-feely at one if they get allocated. 8)
-
rdc, U.C. is just a few minutes away. Maybe I can get a look/touchy-feely at one if they get allocated. 8)
Sparks is the the process of shutting down their storefront and will concentrate on gun shows. Saxet is their main show where they command a presence.
-
They're going to burn through 1000 in nothing flat. Hope they have another batch coming soon.