Author Topic: testing other recoil springs in my rami. Ive found 2 options tha work very well  (Read 11595 times)

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Offline charlestheforth

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If youre like me, you hate that the rami recoil springs wear out so quickly.  I also like extra power recoil springs, they make the gun feel less snappy when I shoot it and they eliminate any possibility of a nose dive malfunction. so over the past year I have been experimenting with different springs in my rami that would mitigate these two problems.

The first, that I originally saw in an ancient thread on this forum, was to use the wolff kimber ultra carry springs in the rami.  After over 2000 rounds with these springs I can say that they work flawlessly.  I used both the outside spring alone combined with the rami original inside spring, and together after replacing the inside recoil spring with the kimber ultra carry spring (changing that out was really freaking hard though so I dont recommend it).    These springs work flawlessly.


Ive also recently bought a pack of Remington 1911 commander springs, cut them in half and used them as the outer recoil spring.  They work great for me, but They will however cause malfunctions if you limp wrist it (happens when my gf shoots my rami). 




So there you have it.  Ive seen threads on reddit or wherever badmouthing the rami because it eats through recoil springs so fast (I think cz recommends you change the outer one after 4-500 rounds).  The cheapest option is the remington 1911 springs.  I got a pack of 3 for like $7 and since I cut them in half to serve as the outer spring thats a little over $1 per spring out of that pack.

the wolff kimber ultra carry springs are a little more expensive but in my opinion the better option as imo its the perfect weight for this gun

Offline dbarn

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If youre like me, you hate that the rami recoil springs wear out so quickly.  I also like extra power recoil springs, they make the gun feel less snappy when I shoot it and they eliminate any possibility of a nose dive malfunction. so over the past year I have been experimenting with different springs in my rami that would mitigate these two problems.

The first, that I originally saw in an ancient thread on this forum, was to use the wolff kimber ultra carry springs in the rami.  After over 2000 rounds with these springs I can say that they work flawlessly.  I used both the outside spring alone combined with the rami original inside spring, and together after replacing the inside recoil spring with the kimber ultra carry spring (changing that out was really freaking hard though so I dont recommend it).    These springs work flawlessly.


Ive also recently bought a pack of Remington 1911 commander springs, cut them in half and used them as the outer recoil spring.  They work great for me, but They will however cause malfunctions if you limp wrist it (happens when my gf shoots my rami). 




So there you have it.  Ive seen threads on reddit or wherever badmouthing the rami because it eats through recoil springs so fast (I think cz recommends you change the outer one after 4-500 rounds).  The cheapest option is the remington 1911 springs.  I got a pack of 3 for like $7 and since I cut them in half to serve as the outer spring thats a little over $1 per spring out of that pack.

the wolff kimber ultra carry springs are a little more expensive but in my opinion the better option as imo its the perfect weight for this gun

Thanks for this information but have a question. When you replace just the outer spring with Kimber Ultra, how often then do you need to replace the inner springs? Or to put it another way, how many outer springs can you go through before the inner needs to be replaced?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 12:37:33 PM by dbarn »

Offline charlestheforth

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Ive found the inner springs to be very long lasting.  the wolff kimber ultra carry inside springs haven't worn out yet and Ive  put at least 3000 rounds with it. I dont have a way to quantitatively test it, but the kimber inside spring is still noticeably stronger than the rami factory inside spring on the extra spring assembly I have.

 the kimber outside springs are still stronger than the factory outside springs as well, after maybe 2000 rounds each.  They have begun to wear out compared to the unused ones I have, but the way I look at it, after another few thousand rounds or so, the wolff springs might wear out to what the factory springs are new.


so to summarize, Id say the lifetime of the wolff outside spring is at least 3-4000 rounds.  Thats extrapolating from the wear ive seen on them after 2000.
The wolff inner spring id say has a lifetime of maybe 5-6000 rounds (again extrapolating from what ive seen so far).



Offline dbarn

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Thank you. Great information.  8)

Offline psion55

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Great info!  Thanks.

Offline PappaWheelie

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the wolff kimber ultra carry springs are a little more expensive but in my opinion the better option as imo its the perfect weight for this gun
Hi charlestheforth;
I wasn't able to hone in on these on the Wolff website: would you be able to provide either the stock number(s) or URL(s) to enable definitive location of your welcome recommendation?
The MidwayUSA website that comes up under these search terms shows three springs. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3415114429/wolff-recoil-spring-set-1911-kimber-ultra-carry
I'd very much like to find an even stiffer (than DPM) combination in that I'm using state-of-the-art ammo for defensive carry.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96929.msg746657#msg746657
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Offline psion55

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Pappa, I also looked at Midway but found 2 different sets of springs.  This one has two springs.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/114229/kimber-recoil-spring-set-1911-kimber-ultra-carry-18-lb

Offline charlestheforth

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Should have included that info:  the sku for the springs I used is 51818 (the 18lb springs), they also sell the 21lb spring set but I have never tried those.   And yes it does come with 3 springs, the smallest spring would not be used.  I guess the kimber ultra carry has a 3 spring recoil assembly.

Offline charlestheforth

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for completion i will also explain how I managed to change the inner recoil spring, but by all means this process could be improved upon tremendously by someone with access to more tools than me. 


first off: DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS WITHOUT A GOOD PAIR OF GOGGLES.  this inner spring could really do some damage if it flew off in the right direction.

The tools I used were a 9mm ammo tray from an empty box of ammo, needle nose pliers, and a hammer.  Getting the top of the assembly off wasnt too bad, but it took a lot more force for me than what I head it took in previous threads on this process. 
Once the cap was off I cut out one square from the ammo tray, so there would just be one hole on the bottom.  i put the new spring on the recoil assembly, then lowered the ammo tray piece over the guide rod.  The tray I had (which I think was a tray of federal) had just the right size holes in the bottom such that the guide rod could pop through with some force, but the spring was too fat to fit through the hole (now that I think about it I may have hammered the guide rod through the hole first, took it out & put the spring on, then put the guide rod back through the hole). while i held the spring compressed with the ammo tray piece, I put it on a block and had a friend pop the cap back on with a tiny hammer.  Now the spring is assembled correctly, but theres still a big piece of plastic on the whole thing, so I then cut off the plastic off piece by piece and viola, the inner spring is assembled.
for kicks I assembled the gun with a little bit of polymer still attached to the tip (cut flush so it was the same radius as the cap)and it did function-check properly. I thought about keeping it this way, and it would essentially be a little polymer "buffer" similar to what they sell for some full sized guns, but I decided not to because the polymer from the ammo tray cant be very high quality. 


This description of events downplays just how frustrating the process was.  To change this inner springs took me the better part of an hour. 

 If anyone has knowledge about an easier way to do this please tell me!  I'm going to have to do it again in 6 months or so.  I'm sure a part could be devised, but to my knowledge no such thing exists yet.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 09:33:37 PM by charlestheforth »

Offline charlestheforth

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updating with new information:

for the 1911 springs (and for any springs in general, I just happened to run into this using these springs), its important that you cut the springs to the length that will balance with the inside spring.

with these captured recoil springs, the outside spring and the inside spring need to be in a specific ratio or else the recoil assembly will compress the inside spring first, resulting in the possibility that the tip of the guide rod can snag on the hole and the slide wont return to battery all the way.  This is sort of confusing to explain.  If anyone has a kahr pm9 or any kahr with a dual recoil spring, notice how the tip of the rod is beveled.  That solves the problem of it getting snagged on the hole and not returning to battery, something that *can* happen to the rami (very rarely, but still an issue) if the outside andd inside spring arent tuned correctly.

The way You can tell if the two springs are no longer in the correct ratio is to pull the slide back a tiny bit and look at the recoil assembly.  The outside spring should be the only one compressing, resulting in the tip of the guide rod still being flush up against the outer spring holder.   If the outer spring is too strong in relation to the inside spring, when you pull the slide back a little bit the inside spring will be the first to compress and now the tip of the guide rod is exposed and the possibility of it snagging presents itself.  This situation doesn't happen unless the outside spring is significantly stronger than the inside spring, but its a situation that you should be aware of because iff all you do is keep changing the outside springs and leaving the inside springs alone, then the ratio will eventually go out of whack and the recoil rod can snag.

Kahr got around this by beveling the end of the guide rod so that it can never snag.  I would love to see cgw or cz custom offer this quality for the rami guide rod.  it would allow people like me who like using higher powered springs to not have to worry the ratio between the outside and inside springs. but for the time being the ratio of the outside and inside spring strengths is something you should be aware of if you start experimenting.   

 again, its prob a non issue for 99.9% of the time, but even the smallest possibility of a malfunction should be made aware of for a self defense weapon.

 

Offline PappaWheelie

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for the 1911 springs (and for any springs in general, I just happened to run into this using these springs), its important that you cut the springs to the length that will balance with the inside spring.
Thanks charlestheforth,
I've been off the Forum for some time, even forgetting that I'd asked you the question. As an engineer, I recognize that the solution for two springs in series having different lengths and needing to compress the shorter first is not a trivial challenge!
I appreciate the detail, above and beyond the call of duty; may you rejoice in your heavenly reward!
When you "cut the springs to the length that will balance with the inside spring" do you bend (depitch) the last coil to "square" it somewhat?
Can you provide an outer spring free length dimension that has worked out for you to reduce iterations to "get there?"
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 02:34:29 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: "shorter" was "longer" »
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Offline charlestheforth

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<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/WbzsEXI"><a href="//imgur.com/WbzsEXI"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm glad you know what I'm talking about with the 2 springs in series, I wasnt sure If I explained that well enough. 

Havent posted a pic to this site in a long time, not sure if that link will work (edit: guess it didnt..  you can see them here: https://imgur.com/a/WbzsEXI).  there you can see 3 of the many springs I've been using, along with the exact kind of 1911 springs I used.  I have found that after you fold the open end of the spring back down and cycle the action a few times (so the spring will set), the length that works for me is when there is between 2 and 3 coils past the end of the guide rod.  the two springs on the bottom are the wolff kimber ultra carry springs, then the two on the top are remington 1911 springs, one that I cut (that I havent gotten around to bending down on itself yet) and one still uncut. 
when You bend the spring down its pretty easy to get it to be ok, but extremely hard to get it perfect.  I've found that as long as you can get the spring to stand on its end after you bend it you should be ok.  I've used Unbent springs too, tbh I didn't experience any malfunctions..  But idk, I just like knowing that the spring is seated in there nicely. 


Hope that helps!

Offline PappaWheelie

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SLAM DUNK HOME RUN, charlestheforth!
Thank you, thank you for your research and post!
I got the Wolff Recoil Spring Set 1911 Kimber Ultra Carry 18# Product #129063 (Wolff Gunsprings #51818) from MidwayUSA https://www.midwayusa.com/product/129063/wolff-recoil-spring-set-1911-kimber-ultra-carry
and the outer spring fits the RAMI sleeve perfectly. Cooler still is the fact that, while too long and stiff (without trimming as you note) to pair with the stock RAMI inner (starts moving the sleeve immediately upon commencement of slide motion, thus leaving the sleeve "inboard" of the slide face upon return, a potential "wreck"), it paired PERFECTLY with my DPM carry spring inner and sleeve, having significantly more balanced travel-sharing than the strongest DPM outer spring and resulting in another 1.3 lbf of preload just prior to slide bottoming in comparison with the strongest DPM outer spring!
The strongest DPM configuration still resulted in above target casing discharge distance
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5506.msg23284#msg23284
I'm super happy that with your help the casing discharge distance distance will be closer to optimum with my carry combo of Underwood Xtreme Defender +P+ and DPM/Wolff springpack. TYJ!
I'll copy my Greek friend Panagiotis of DPM on this post; it looks like the next larger wire size would help his RAMI BD offering.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 02:24:18 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: "Xtreme Defender" was "Extreme Defender" »
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Offline PappaWheelie

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Going back to your first post, (my new hero) charlestheforth, it appears from what you suggest, that the Remington 1911 commander springs are even stiffer than the Wolff Kimber Ultra Carry spring. That would make sense from the coarser pitch (fewer coils), but I'd be also interested if you might be able to compare wire diameters between the two. A digital "vernier" caliper would be the ideal tool if you have one or have access to one. I don't, all my calipers are "old school" (true vernier metric and inches dial). If not, don't spend any money; I can order the Remington units.

My DPM inner spring can "balance" with an even stronger outer, I perceive, an outcome that would even mo' betta' handle my Punching Above Weight carry ammo, Underwood Ammo Xtreme Defender +P+ 90 grain.
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96929.msg746657#msg746657
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 09:19:40 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: "Xtreme Defender" was misspelled "Extreme Defender" »
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Offline charlestheforth

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I'm so happy these springs are helping you out! 

I don't have a caliper, but I have really good eyes and the Wolff and Remington springs look exactly the same diameter.  The Remington springs dont seem to be any stiffer, but you can increase the force of the spring relative to the wolff springs by cutting them longer. 

I never in a million years thought this info would be useful to anyone else, but the remington springs can be cut to around 5 coils past the end of the guide rod before the length of the spring gets too long and makes it so the slide doesnt have enough room to reach the slide stop.  The problem for me was that my inner spring wasn't strong enough to balance any extra power over around 2 coils past the end of the guide rod. 
It sounds like you have a stronger inner spring though, so the remington springs should be perfect for you.  You'll be able to tune it very precisely by finding the right length for the remington spring.   

GOOD LUCK!  let me know how it works out for you  :D
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 12:24:25 AM by charlestheforth »

 

anything