P-09 barrel, clean enough?

[Joe L]

Vinny--glad you got yours and that it works! 

You will need to experiment with the location of the mirrors on the end of the probe.  Here is the secret.  The focus distance from the lens is fixed, just for an example, at 0.5 inch.  That distance is fixed whether the mirror is used or not.  For a .22, the mirror needs to be very near the end of the threads so that the very short distance perpindicular to the bore plus the distance to the lens from the mirror is 0.5 inch.  For a 9mm bore, the mirror will need to be screwed in so that more distance across the bore can be used.  I tend to rest the mirror on one side of the bore and look at the other side, simply because I don't have a way to center the probe in the bore. 

I got three mirrors with mine, but they look identical.  I'll look more closely!

Joe

[Joe L]

I got to shoot my P-10F on Thursday, 128 rounds of Rem UMC 115 FMJ.  After I got home, I decided to 'scope the bore before doing anything in the way of cleaning the bore.  Next I ran a wet Hoppe's #9 patch, let it sit a few minutes, then ran 4-5 dry patches through the bore until they started coming out clean.  Another borescope recording.  Next I used some bore paste on a 9.3mm soft VFG pellet and ran that through the bore 10 times, then 2 more the same way, then some solvent and some dry patches.  Another borescope recording.  Here is a video I made combining all three videos.

https://youtu.be/kV9oLcijcDU

So, even 128 rounds can cancel out a good hard detailed cleaning job, to the point where it looks as bad as after several hundred.  Maybe.  I hope to be able to shoot enough to find out in the coming weeks.  I really enjoyed shooting the P-10F on Thursday.  And the Kadet, which is next on the borescope adventure. 

Joe

[Vinny]

Vinny--glad you got yours and that it works! 

You will need to experiment with the location of the mirrors on the end of the probe.  Here is the secret.  The focus distance from the lens is fixed, just for an example, at 0.5 inch.  That distance is fixed whether the mirror is used or not.  For a .22, the mirror needs to be very near the end of the threads so that the very short distance perpindicular to the bore plus the distance to the lens from the mirror is 0.5 inch.  For a 9mm bore, the mirror will need to be screwed in so that more distance across the bore can be used.  I tend to rest the mirror on one side of the bore and look at the other side, simply because I don't have a way to center the probe in the bore. 

I got three mirrors with mine, but they look identical.  I'll look more closely!

Joe

Great tip about adjusting the side mirror focal length by amount it's screwed onto the borescope. 

I have some Hoppe's Elite Copper Terminator I haven't been using, and I can see now it's probably needed at least occasionally. Once copper or lead get burnished in it's undoubtedly harder to remove.
I don't shoot long-range super-accurate bull's eye like you do, so I don't need to get too OCD about it.  Just want pistol reliability, reasonable SD accuracy, and barrel durability to extend it's useful life.

Thanks again Joe!   -Vinny

[Joe L]

And here is the video of the Kadet barrel after 80 rounds, before and after cleaning.  I don't know what to think about all of this.  Slow loading to YouTube today, so no telling when this will finish.

https://youtu.be/o5rhBC9xFsA

Joe

[BKmetz]

You guys are KILLING me. My OCD is now raging completely out of control.

Between this thread and the LTT video I've completely changed my cleaning techniques. I bought a glass bread pan to soak my pistol barrels and small parts in Hoppe's #9 for a while before running a bore brush and patches through them. Wow did I remove a lot of schmutz that I never knew was hiding in there. I used to run a patch through the barrel until clean without any 'pre-soak.' From this point forward there will always be a substantial barrel pre-soak.

I've ordered Mil-Comm TW-25 grease, a Teslong borescope, JB Bore cleaning compound, and a crap-load of Tipton Cleaning pellets in different calibers. I already have some Kroil.

I have a real love/hate relationship with this forum...

 

[Joe L]

BKMetz--

I decided to step away from the borescope for a few days and just shoot some of my older less used pistols.  I put up two targets from yesterday in the "day at the range" forum.  I did break from a long standing tradition of not cleaning the barrels when I got home.  I removed the barrels, ran a patch soaked with Kroil through each one, let them sit for 30 minutes or so, then ran a couple of dry patches, then a brush with patch wrapped and soaked many times but only chamber to muzzle direction, then some more dry patches, then one with a little oil.  Then put the pistol back together and in to the safe.  All done. 

Except I couldn't stand it.  I got the barrels out in the evening and ran the borescope down the barrels and there was still a little carbon on the sides of the grooves, but the lands were clean and I didn't see any boulders.  And the axial view without the mirror with the borescope entering the chamber end looked smooth with none of the flip ups from running the brush towards the chamber, not that it really matters after one round through the barrel. 

I think what I need to learn to do is to differentiate a buildup that can actually affect the sealing of the bullet to the barrel from discoloration and film that is no more significant than the tooling chatter and marks left in the barrel from the factory.  So far, all the older barrels that even have a little pitting still seem to shoot exceptionally well.  It makes sense.  Tiny pits don't affect the sealing.  A large buildup of crud in the leede area (which none of mine have) could swage the bullet down as it leaves the case and perhaps leave a deep gouge in the bullet that would not be sealed at the muzzle end with no crud.  I guess.  Maybe. 

When you get your borescope, test it without the mirror by viewing some common objects you have handy, like some hammer or sear parts, a pocket knife blade, a file, a toe nail, bullet surface, something you can relate to and see with you naked eye for perspective.  Don't put it down a gun barrel first or you will cry.

Joe

[Vinny]

Thanks Joe for the 'short focus' borescope model recommendation and the 'tip' to adjust the mirror's focal length by how much it's screwed on. Works great.

One of my 22 pistols I haven't used in several years had been stored after cleaning during one Summer in my garage lock-box. Mistake! That's a problem of an overflowing gun safe in the A/C area of our home.    I've since sold off some so I can fit 'em all inside now, but I missed that one.

The borescope revealed that it had some fine rust due to humidity. A brushing with CLP and follow-up patch wipes seemed to get most of it out. However; I don't want to over-clean to the point I start rounding the sharp corners of the bore grooves and loose the 'bite' of the bullet twist.


I think I need to just go shoot it, now that our range has re-opened; and then do one final cleaning and oiling.

The borescope does really help to see what's going on; but I agree that we must be careful to not 'magnify' the problems by over-cleaning and going into OCD mode.   

[Joe L]

Vinny--glad you got yours.  Did they include three mirrors or one?  My three all look to be the same.  I may make a modification for one of them--I may bend the mirror some so that the light doesn't reflect off the flat bore surface at exactly 90 degrees.  I don't want to do all three that way because I don't think the bent mirror can make it down a .22 barrel.  I may try it later today. 

Seriously, I think the borescope will be helpful in finding serious carbon build up in the barrel, but I am not going to worry about a thin layer of copper or carbon discoloration, especially if it comes back in just a few rounds anyway. 

Joe

[Joe L]

So today I got out my 97B"E", ran a patch and some solvent, then dry patches, and then the borescope.  Big mistake!  Lots of copper and carbon!  Went and checked my records and it looks like I shot the 75B 9mm 10x CGW bushing gun in a bullseye match in Jan 2019, and haven't shot the 97B"E" in a year and a half.  I received my P-10F (thank you CZ Forum!) in January 2019 and it looks like the centerfire guns I shot in 2019 were the P-10 pistols and that is it.  No 97B"E" due to no scheduled bullseye matches and to me moving and finishing up work before retiring.  Plus I had a new pistol to compare to my two P-09's.  I just didn't get to shoot much in 2019 at all. 

I don't recall ever really scrubbing this barrel like I have the 9mm pistols over the last week or so.  But I am catching up on 97B"E", and am letting it soak in Kroil overnight before hitting it again in the morning.  And yes, I'm running the brushes both direction in this barrel.  Too much stuff to get out of there to just run it one direction.  If I get it clean once, I'll keep cleaning it after ever range session from now on.  Video tomorrow after I finish.  At one time, this pistol was just as good as the P-09, but I think I got frustrated with it in 2018 and went back to the 9mm instead of just working out why the gun was a little off.  I might have just let it go too long.  If that is the case, this will be the only pistol that was ailing from lack of cleaning. 

Joe

[Vinny]

Vinny--glad you got yours.  Did they include three mirrors or one?  My three all look to be the same.  I may make a modification for one of them--I may bend the mirror some so that the light doesn't reflect off the flat bore surface at exactly 90 degrees.  I don't want to do all three that way because I don't think the bent mirror can make it down a .22 barrel.  I may try it later today. 

Seriously, I think the borescope will be helpful in finding serious carbon build up in the barrel, but I am not going to worry about a thin layer of copper or carbon discoloration, especially if it comes back in just a few rounds anyway. 

Joe

Joe, I did get three mirror tips. I thought they were different sizes but it turned out they're all the same OD about .197.  It's easy to lose one so I'm glad to have two spares.
Also, I discovered there's a small light intensity adjustment wheel on the connector body (about 8" from the USB end). It helps to reduce glare when you get the bores really shiny.   

I shot the 22 pistol today with bore that had rusted very slightly from a summer of storage in my garage locker. It shot really well so there's apparently no harm done. Cleaned it again after today and it still looks slightly discolored but I'm not going to fret. Just needs more bullets run through I guess. 

[Joe L]

Vinny--your .22 looks great compared to my .22! 

I took the 97B"E" to the range on Thursday.  I have put together a video with the before shooting borescope recording mentioned a post or two up, and then after shooting and after just a few patches to remove the loose carbon.  It should be viewable by 5:30 CDT.  I hope. 

Vinny--I made some changes to the borescope procedure that are documented in this video, also.  Cheap and easy.  Take a look. 

https://youtu.be/rPOILsZBF7c

I don't have any VFG pellets for the .45's so I am going to clean with solvent and a brush.  I ordered some #000 rubber stoppers today, they should fit the 9mm and the .45 barrels.  Nothing for the .22 yet. 

Joe

[Tok36]

How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?

[Joe L]

How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?

poorly!

[Vinny]

How are you guys differentiating copper deposits from light rust?

poorly!

Good Question.
In my case this particular barrel had what appeared to be fine rust powder on the first few patches I ran through after removing from storage and before firing. My bad for leaving in my garage locker with high humidity for one summer. Although locked and sealed in a plastic gun case, as temps dropped overnight, condensation undoubtedly formed in the barrel.
After extensive cleaning it still had a brownish discoloration on both the lands and grooves (as seen in image below).
If it was copper that had smeared off the bullet jacket, I would think it would be primarily streaked on just the lands. I have old tools that exhibit this slight brownish discoloration. As long as I keep a bit of oil preservative on 'em, they work just as good as new. But I suppose I could run some pellets through with some JB compound to shine it up but I honestly doubt it would shoot any better as long as the bore is clean of deposits and edges of twist are still sharp.

[Tok36]

Thank you for the input. Ill run a few patches down the barrel in question and see what it tells me. Talk of this subject has made me question my potential laziness in the dry climate that i reside in. Good reason to play with my CZs. 

poorly!

Eheh, fun stuff.