Author Topic: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM  (Read 7932 times)

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Offline wa1911

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Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« on: December 23, 2022, 09:31:39 AM »
Hi guys, I am new to reloading and very limited in writing English, so I am apologize in advance for my broken English.

The only projectile and powder I have now is RMR Nuke FMJ 124 gr and RMR 115 gr RN, HP-38 powder. I had some good loads for couple of my guns with these 2 bullets and been shoot about 5k, but recently purchased the CZ TS2 blue for almost double the MSRP price (I live in CA). I did plunk test the RMR Nuke and I have to load it really scary short COL 1.042" start with 3.9gr of HP38 and walk up to 4.2gr. For the 115 gr RN I loaded it 1.105" COL start with 4.2gr HP38 and now settle at 4.6 gr.

The thing is all of my test load function good on my new TS2 but it not accurate at all. I shoot indoors at 7 yards with support during prior testing of my loads. I did break in the gun with 200 rounds of Federal factory ammo. It shot very well at 7 and 10 yards.

Can some one suggest the projectile that work good with this TS2 per your personal experience? I am planning to do steel challenge in the near future.

Thank you for all you input
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 09:59:43 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2022, 10:13:13 AM »
Welcome Aboard !

David, your English is very good !! I teach English during the week to new citizens from every part of the globe, so I should know. I have modified your post above to help others, and you will see the corrections are tiny. You've done very well, sir.

To answer your questions...
• Bullets don't usually change due to the model pistol you shoot them in. A bullet that is accurate in a P01 will be just as accurate in a P10c as in a Shadow. The only 2 differences being 1) longer barrel of the TS2 will place shots more accurately than a short barreled compact P01, and 2) there may be minor differences in the Max OAL you can use... owing to the difference in the 2 chambers.

• This means that "accurate loads" you may already know that worked really well in one CZ will be very, very close to being exactly what you want in your TS2.... once the OAL is adjusted. So if you had a pet load for your P10c of (say for instance) 4.3gr, then in the TS2 I can almost guarantee the load should be 4.2, 4.3 or 4.4gr as long as the OAL doesn't significantly change. And that makes things really easy.

• HP-38 is a very good powder, and the exact same powder is sold under the name "Winchester 231". We have done extensive testing with "W231" which you may want to read about. You can find that in the Reloading Directory sticky at the top of this forum, or you can simply go HERE.

• I like the bullets you are now shooting. They are almost an identical match for the Zero (brand) 124gr JHP. The only bullet that might be better is the Precision Delta 124gr JHP. They will be ever so slightly more accurate and possibly cheaper. See.... https://www.precisiondelta.com/products/9mm-124gr-jhp/   



In bulk (3000+) these are a huge savings and happen to be on sale right now. If you are not sure I'd be happy to send you a handful for testing, but you might miss the sale.
A downside is that if you are using Dillon loading equipment, then I would need to make you a seating anvil because Dillon dies do not seat these very accurately.

• Seating the RMR 124gr JHP at 1.040" is not an issue. I would urge you to test that again, because my P10c which has a very short chamber uses these at 1.060". If you have not so far, then please read THIS.


How else can we help you ???
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 11:40:40 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2022, 11:03:39 AM »
If you are serious, and you want your accuracy to make a leap, then I suggest you change your powder and primers.

• A good step would be to start using Alliant Sport Pistol. Test notes HERE.

• The winning step would be to start using VihtaVuori N320. Test notes HERE.


Personally, I use all 3.... W231 and Sport Pistol for practice, and N320 for competition.


Hard to find right now, but Federal SPP are the best you can have for competition. They are hotter for better ignition and they are softer for a more positive ignition, even if the firing pin or hammer is somehow jammed.
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Offline wa1911

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2022, 12:43:46 PM »
Thank you so much for a quick reply and the praise for my English and also for your offer to send me some sample bullets Mr. Wobbly. You are a very kind sir.
I will take your advise seriously I will try with the RMR Nuke again with maybe 4.3gr HP 38, it may be just me more than the bullets and the gun. I will also try to order some of the precision delta to see if it does better.
 I am no where near the competition  level, most of my load is for target plinking but planning to do steel challenging in the next couple of years when I received my first early retirement check LOL. My good load with RMR 124 JHP nuke was COL 1.075" at 4.4gr HP38. I don't have a chrono but it shoot fine on my others CZ with no sign of high pressure so I am guessing I will be ok to load it with  4.3  or even 4.4 gr of HP38 at COL 1.042" and try again ( little scare to blow up my TS2 but I have an idea now that I should test it on one of my old CZ first to see it blow up before I shoot it on my very expensive TS2 ...LOL )
I know RMR bullets is good and I like it a lot, the thing is when I meet the guys at the range on the day I tested my load and chat with him little bit and he said some thing to make me think about it, he advise me to find the bullets that has the profile that allow me to load longer COL, the longer COL is the better in term of accuracy. What is your opinion about that comment Mr Wobbly ?

Will try to get some other powder like VihtaVuori N320 as well .

Thank you again Mr Wobbly.
Merry Christmas !!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 01:12:46 PM by wa1911 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2022, 04:47:51 PM »
Thoughts:
• We've done extensive testing on our own here, and I disagree with long OALs. We don't know if shorter OALs align the bullet to the case better, or if they hold the bullet until chamber pressure builds higher, but we have proof that shorter OALs are more accurate.

• It's been accepted wisdom for a long time that JHP fly better, so if you want to stay with RMR, you got the right bullet.

• Several shooters (myself included) settled on 4.3gr of W231 with an OAL around 1.100". Your foreshortened OAL of 1.040" may take a 1/10 gr less. Good things should happen around 130 PF.

• Have you got a chrono ?? You'll be needing one. The chrono is the only way to know about chamber pressure, PF calculation, or really anything technical about your rounds. Tell the wife you want one for Christmas !! I like the ProChrono.

• I don't see where you have mentioned the "Push Test" results. That's the place to start. Start your reading in the Directory of Reloading Information in the Stickies above. That will keep you "off the streets and out of trouble" for a couple of weeks !!!  ;D

• The RMR JHP fit the Dillon seating anvil REALLY well. That's a match made in Heaven. It's really important that the bullet be centered BEFORE seating starts, that's why we worry about matching the seating anvil up.

• The N320 has a different recoil, that's more of a 'push'. It also runs cooler in the pistol and has no unburned particles or ash left behind. Once you start shooting with that, you'll be spoiled for life. N320 = "shooter's crack"   O0

• This is very important... do the 'Push Test' and then choose your OAL. Once you decide on an OAL don't change it unless you have feed issues or change bullet suppliers. Secondly... for accuracy testing use only 1 brand of brass. I keep 50 rounds of quality brass that I use ONLY for load testing. Testing should be 8-10 rounds of each load.




All the best my friend ! And Merry Christmas !

PS. Did you register HERE ??
« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 11:04:17 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline wa1911

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2022, 10:30:55 AM »
Thank you for the advice Mr. Wobbly.
I am not sure if the "push test" you mentioned also call the "Plunk test " but I will do more research on that.
I did Plunk Test by using the method of loading a dummy round with no powder and primer and slowly seating the the bullet by .001" or .002" each time and drop in the gun chamber until
it freely spin, and from there I back out another .010" and call it my final COL.

Will try out new load with N320 and will let you know the result.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2022, 06:10:19 PM by wa1911 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2022, 11:14:02 AM »
Thank you again for all your advise Mr. Wobbly, I will definitely follow your advise.
English can be very confusing.
1. "Advise" is the verb, the act of sharing; "Advice" is the noun, the knowledge shared.
2. Writing Tip: Best not to repeat the same word over and over. Better to say, "Thanks for the advice, I will follow it."

I am not sure if the "push test" you mentioned also call the "Plunk test ", but I will do more research on that.
I did Plunk Test by using the method of loading a dummy round with no powder and primer and slowly seating the the bullet by .001" or .002" each time and drop in the gun chamber until it spun freely, and from there I back out another .010" and call it my final COL.

It is not the same. You will see this when you do the prescribed reading.

All the best.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 08:17:53 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline wa1911

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2022, 10:31:17 AM »
I just order 1lbs of N320 and a prochrono, I could not find  any data for N320 on my Lyman 50th edition but it has a data for N340 with Hornady 124gr XTP (#35571) which I think similar to RMR 124 Nuke. Data suggest COL 1.060 over 3.9gr to 4.6gr of N340, but again it is not the same powder. So I am going to load some test round start from the low and walk up

COL 1.040" over 3.6 N320, CCI Primer , Win case
COL 1.040" over 3.7 N320
COL 1.040" over 3.8 N320
COL 1.040" over 3.9 N320

Is this load look ok  Mr. Wobbly ?

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 11:02:19 AM by wa1911 »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2022, 12:07:05 PM »
I just order 1lbs of N320 and a prochrono....
• Be aware that the chrono has to be at least 10ft from the muzzle or you'll get fantastically high readings from the muzzle flash.
• The chrono should point toward the light. So if it's late afternoon, you may need to tilt the chrono and point the light receptors at the sun.
• Swing by your local Goodwill Store and pick up a used camera tripod to mount this on. Buy a nice one that tilts and turns. (about $5)
• I prefer wooden chop-sticks in place of the steel wires they send. The first time you hit a steel wire, you'll find out why. And no matter how you try, sooner or later you will hit a wire !




I could not find any data for N320 on my Lyman 50th edition, but it has a data for N340 with Hornady 124gr XTP....
• You should go to the VihtaVuori web page.... HERE. Click on 9mm at the bottom of the page. Print that page out. Now you have the exact load data you need.

• When you buy VihtaVuori powder, most of the time they will send you a free load booklet. But you have to ask for it.


...N340, but again it is not the same powder. So I am going to load some test round start from the low and walk up

COL 1.040" over 3.6 N320, CCI Primer , Win case
COL 1.040" over 3.7 N320
COL 1.040" over 3.8 N320
COL 1.040" over 3.9 N320

Is this load look ok, Mr. Wobbly ?
It's not the way I might do it.

• Using the Push Test, what is the Max OAL for your barrel and the RMR bullet ? I want to know exactly how you came to choose 1.040" as your OAL. It's proabably OK, but I want to know that I'm approving something that will work.

• Do you have a notebook to take notes in ? This is the MOST important thing you can do !! I like a school "Lab Notebook" with pages that don't come loose. This way I can't loose any pages. One notebook for auto pistols, one notebook for revolvers and one notebook for rifles. You may also shoot 38Spcl or 40S&W, but obviously 9mm is going to take most of the notebook.



• Then, (as shown above) I advise you to set aside one page per bullet. You'll have all the bullet info there: the OAL you use, all the bullet dimensions, die settings for that OAL, which book you got the load data from, etc. Notes on how you chose your OAL, so that you'll always know. Then, below that you start your load info. You only need to show the type and brand of powder, because you ALWAYS use the same OAL for that bullet. Then some notes on using that load, like.... "Soft shooting, but too much smoke. Avg velocity = 1038fps. 2" group at 10 yards for 8 shots. Try 1/10gr more. Shot Dec 26, 2022."

Then if you try a new power with that bullet you add a new line under that one.

If you don't write it down, you'll forget. Then when you get in a hurry the night before a competition, you'll screw up. Maybe get hurt. No one can remember all these numbers. You must write it down ! I'm still shooting loads I developed 25 years ago... because I wrote them down.



^Look at this photo^. Yes, I have my Lyman #49 open, but my personal 9mm notebook is right there. I never reload without looking at my notes. When you get old like me, and loose your brain like me, you'll be glad you wrote it down !!  ;D

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 08:24:16 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline wa1911

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2022, 04:19:33 PM »
Wow! thank you for a very detail advice.
Here is how I came up with that COL for my  CZ TS2.  I have a Redding T7 press so I loaded a dummy round with no powder and primer and slowly seating the the bullet by .001" or .002" each time and drop in the gun chamber until it freely spin, and from there I seat it .01" deeper.
  I've tried other method by find a spent case and place a bullet on it, black marker the bullet and insert in into the chamber ..ect  but I have no success with this method.
The only load on VihtaVuori  website  which I think similar to RMR 124gr JHP Nuke is  the 125gr Sierra JHP. So do you think I should starting my load at COL 1.040" over 3.2gr N320 and walk up.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you !

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2022, 05:50:12 PM »
Wow! thank you for a very detail advice.
That's what we do here.

Here is how I came up with that COL for my  CZ TS2.  I have a Redding T7 press so I loaded a dummy round with no powder and no primer and slowly seating the the bullet by .001" or .002" each time and dropped it in the gun chamber until it freely spun. And from there I seated it .010" deeper.
• You have captured the spirit of our method, and it will work. It's a LOT more labor, but it will do. However, 1.040" sounds incredibly short !
• I want you to back off by 0.015", which doesn't sound like that much more, but for competition (even if it's simply outshooting your buddy so that he has to buy the beer) this has important allowances.


I've tried the other method by finding a spent case and place a bullet on it, black marker the bullet and insert in into the chamber ...ect, but I have no success with this method.
• There is no black marker used.
• Use the instructions in this document: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0
• 95% of the test is all about finding the proper case that fits the bullet.
• You simply find a case that allows the bullet to fit snugly inside it (not tight; not loose), set that at a OAL of 1.200" and slide it into the chamber of the barrel. The bullet will stop at the rifling, and the case will continue to slide over the bullet. Then carefully slide the test cartridge out and measure it. It should come out closer to 1.075".... which then gets 0.015" subtracted from it. Do this 4 or 5 times until you keep getting the same reading.
• The first time will take 20 min. The second time will take you 5 min. The third time will take you 1 min.


The only load on VihtaVuori website which I think similar to RMR 124gr JHP Nuke is  the 125gr Sierra JHP. So do you think I should starting my load at COL 1.040" over 3.2gr N320 and walk up. Please correct me if I'm wrong.






• The Sierra 125gr JHP load data is the best in that book. With N320, the load is 3.2gr to 3.8gr at 1.035".
• However, the 2018 Vit data shows loads slightly higher. I show that because I believe you'll be at 4.0 or 4.1gr to reach a PF pf 130.
• Our OAL will be longer than 1.035/1.040" so we can use that data. (You can always go longer, but never shorter.)
• We always begin at the Starting Load, which is 3.7/3.8gr in my data. You can work up from 3.2gr if you like.
• Then load 8-10 at 3.7gr, 8-10 at 3.8gr, 8-10 at 3.9gr, all the way up to 8-10 at 4.1gr. All of my data shows me using loads in the 4.0/4.1gr range with 1.060" OAL. So your shorter OAL (if that's where you stay) makes it hard to figure.
• Note that the velocity at Max Load is 1069fps in my book and 1070fps on the web page. Basically the same number. That's important to know.
However the chrono will help you. You must STOP when the Avg Velocity comes close to 1050 fps. So the velocity tells you when you reach Max Load for an unlisted load like yours. That's why you need the chrono !! Loads come and go, but velocity tells the truth.
• Use 1 brand of brass only.



When I do this, I shoot from a sand bag or other stable rest for the bottom of the pistol grip. Then I Reset the chrono and shoot another load group at a new target. The target should be at 30 to 40 feet. (Use the exact same distance for every test you ever do.) In the end you'll have 5 sets of velocity data and 5 targets, one for each load. It's long and tedious work. But if you do it correctly you won't ever need to repeat it. Write all the data on the target, like...





Make sure your target has a black "bullseye" about 2" in diameter. I use a NRA target number TQ-2 from National Target Co. https://www.nationaltarget.com/  Very cheap (100/$3.60) and very small. Easy to store. I have targets from 20 years ago because they are easy to store. I can compare testing done in 2005 with next week's test because they were all shot at the same distance.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 05:51:37 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline wa1911

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2022, 09:04:28 AM »
Thanks again for your very valuable lesson Mr. Wobbly. Don't know why my CZ TS2  has very short chamber compare to the Cz sp-01. But I will try the push test method again after I finish typing this message.  I hope the Chrono and the  Vit N320 arrive soon so I can test it before the new year.

Offline sevt_chevelle

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2022, 11:50:29 AM »
You might wanna also try some Precision Delta V2 bullets. They are a hollow point design but not made for expansion. I suggest them as they have a more forgiving profile than RMR.

If I remember right, my Shadow 2 will run 124 V2 at around 1.100" vs around 1.070" for RMR 124 mw, and I know RMR nukes need to be run shorter.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 03:02:39 PM by Wobbly »

Offline tdogg

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2022, 12:07:59 PM »
Your method to find the max oal is perfectly acceptable.  Just make sure you don't flare the case mouth before seating the bullet.  It won't work if you are loading lead/coated lead bullets because the bullet will shave off when seated or it will hang up on the case mouth.  The flare could cause the cartridge to hang up before finding the max oal.

In either method make sure your barrel is clean!  Debris in the chamber could change the result.

I don't use a notebook, I use a spreadsheet to keep track of my load development.  I back it up frequently.  Either way the most important thing is to keep detailed information on your load development efforts.  You want everything documented so you can replicate it in the future.  As wobbly shared, you will reference it for years to come.

Cheers,
Toby



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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good load for CZ TS2 Blue 9MM
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2022, 03:49:25 PM »
Apologies. I was under time pressure when I wrote the last response. Some of my explanation is not as clear as I had hoped.

Determining your OAL has got to be the first priority... And here's why...

Online data: 1.035"  3.2gr to 3.8gr  Max Vel 1037fps  Sierra 125gr JHP
 2018 data : 1.130"  3.5gr to 4.2gr  Max Vel 1053fps  Lapua 124gr Megashock JHP

The difference in loads for the Sierra bullet is 3.8-3.2gr or 0.6gr
The difference in loads for the Lapua bullet is 4.2-3.5gr or 0.7gr

Both end at approximately the same Max Velocity of ~1050fps.
Both have very similar Load Ranges of ~0.7gr.

So what's the main difference ? It's the OAL !!
Pick most any 124/125gr bullet and the Load Range will be ~0.7gr with a Max Vel of ~1050fps !!
What determines your Start and Max Loads is the OAL.

Bottom Line: You won't know where to start and end your powder loads until you sit down and determine your OAL. 
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.