Author Topic: Ontological Certitude  (Read 8359 times)

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Offline PappaWheelie

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Ontological Certitude
« on: September 18, 2018, 08:36:27 PM »
I've come to believe that the CZ 2075 RAMI BD with 14 round extended magazine is, simply, the best-feeling pistol on the planet, and not without good reason.
The Colt 1911 was developed as a single stack, with grip ovality optimized for comfort in light of the fact of one's metacarpals being adjacent the grip, without compromise with regard to double stack "packaging constraints." The RAMI's "externals" have the 1911 as heritage, via the Colt-CZ joint venture that produced the CZ.40B, whose "Ugly Duckling" (compared to most CZ's with their sculpted chamfer all around/above the trigger) looks are unmistakeable in the RAMI
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=5466.0 -whose grip proportions benefitted from the downsize to .40 S&W/9mm Ruger cartridge sizes. The forward hook of the extended magazine's "collar" allows fitting the "pit" of the palm in classic CZ fashion but imho the best of the line.
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=93502.msg716495#msg716495
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96892.msg746406#msg746406
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95795.msg736628#msg736628
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95721.msg735964#msg735964
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=89510.msg677073#msg677073
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=98518.msg760720#msg760720
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=94380.msg727392#msg727392
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95205.msg732695#msg732695
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=99762.msg776269#msg776269
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=81816.msg600653#msg600653
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103940.msg810319#msg810319
By comparison most pistols' grips feel like the "rounded corners rectangle" section that they in actuality are. Their flatter sides don't fill the metacarpal "trough" as well, so don't feel as right and thus also don't have the lateral grippability of say, the CZ 75 series which (although having a slightly lower length to width aspect ratio section than the RAMI) "feels" like its otherwise best-in-class grip has an unnatural bulge out in front, perhaps because the grip's camber peaks are a bit too rearward. The CZ 75 series somehow just doesn't feel as smoothly (or largely?) radiused in front as does the RAMI.
And the CZ-classic checkered rubber grips do provide traction and tactile comfort unmatched by any other material. It is an "ontological certitude" (thanks, Rush) that there has to be a best-feeling pistol of all, period, despite (or taking into account) hand size differences, etc. Not to say best for everybody: the Sig P365 will be better for folks with smallish hands for instance, but best for the greatest number of shooters.
I've spent enough time in gun shops to be convinced that the extended mag version of the CZ RAMI BD (with its "safe" strong thumb registry area forward of the decocker) is indeed that pistol. And it can be carried with absolute tucked shirt invisibility!
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=81829.msg600234#msg600234
http://www.defensereview.com/cz-2075-rami-big-gun-performance-in-a-sub-compact-dasa-9mm-40-sw-pistol/
I'd like to invite owners of the incomparable CZ 2075 RAMI BD with 14 round extended magazine to Reply if they concur that for simple fit to the hand, or "feel," or "feels right" ergonomics, none of their other pistols, or any other pistol they've handled for that matter, can compare.
This characteristic is not the same as "balance," or "weight," or other such basis for favoritism, and is likewise independent of such favorable factors as night sights, "real gun" DA/SA functionality, etc.
Also invited; owners of the incomparable CZ 2075 RAMI BD with 14 round extended magazine who have identified ergonomically superior pistols, if you can discern and communicate your reasons for believing said superiority.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 01:54:01 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: added link »
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Offline TNman

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 05:20:07 AM »
No arguments here. I fell in love with mine the first time I held in my hand.
IDPA   |   USPSA  |   NRA

CZ PCR   |   RAMI BD   |   Shadow 2   |   P-10 C   |   CZ 75B Omega   |   CZ 97 BD

Sig P320 Comp. & Full & X-Carry
Sig P226 Legion
Springfield XDS Mod 2 45

Offline Tyerone

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 08:01:06 AM »
Sorry.  I have the safety version of the RAMI, so I guess you aren't looking for my opinion... :-\

It is one fine handgun, however!  :)

Offline PappaWheelie

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 10:38:29 AM »
Sorry.  I have the safety version of the RAMI, so I guess you aren't looking for my opinion... :-\

It is one fine handgun, however!  :)

No offense Tyerone, the post wasn't intended to exclude B models, deliberately at least. I'm hereby clarifying that the principal intent of the post was to gather corroborating input with regards to grip comfort with the 14 round extended mag. I love both decocker functionality (can't "forget" in a pressure situation) and the more open "strong thumb" land that right handers with large hands enjoy forward of the Decocker Lever, but neither these, nor TruDot Tritium night sights with which the BD is upgraded, bear upon the "simple grip feel" (ergonomic perfection, imho) issue I highlight.
And the quantitative clarity of "better than any other I know of" (with respect to hand friendliness) is a stronger "selling point" than any/all qualitative accolades.
Thank you for your input: do you have the 14 round extended magazine (non-California) version? If so, is your safety version (with 14 round mag) the best feeling pistol you've experienced?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 12:52:14 PM by PappaWheelie »
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CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
UBG: CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical Urban Grey Suppressor-ready
-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 10:53:39 AM »
Nah, Shield 45 is better.

Offline congaree

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 08:24:01 PM »
Agreed...totally subjective, but this is the best pistol I've ever held in my hand.  Even the weight of it feels right.  It's a little jewel.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 02:34:40 AM »
I'm no fan of the scalloped dust cover forward of the trigger guard. I have no use for cosmetic 1911-esque styling cues in place of a rail (like on the P-01) which would be very useful for putting lights and lasers on the Rami.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 02:40:53 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline PappaWheelie

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 12:20:25 PM »
Nah, Shield 45 is better.
Better in what way(s), Earl?
Respectfully, in light of over 2,400 posts and almost a year difference in our CZ Forum "seniority," your post would be more informative if you'd be so kind as to post a pair of images like
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qHV2T-FzuUHrgMnlOH6qCeaB86afLZM3
comparing your extended magazine RAMI in-hand with your Shield 45 in-hand, and with some qualitative notes highlighting the comparative advantages of an axially long, narrow-sectioned plastic grip over that of the RAMI's even more highly ovalled than 1911, diamond-textured rubber faced grip.
You don't mention extended magazine: assuming you use the slightly-extended 7+1 mag, is it also your opinion that the RAMI's full fingered, forward-hooking (both front and rear) grip is a disadvantage with respect to the Shield's unrounded butt?
I'm amazed that if you've acquired an extended-magazine RAMI since this post
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=81579.msg598010#msg598010
there is not a single mention of it on czfirearms.us -if I'm incorrect please post the link(s), otherwise kindly consider deleting your post as failing to qualify per the requested constraint "owners of the incomparable CZ 2075 RAMI...".
Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 05:39:18 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: grammatical »
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CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
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Offline PappaWheelie

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 12:43:00 PM »
I'm no fan of the scalloped dust cover forward of the trigger guard. I have no use for cosmetic 1911-esque styling cues in place of a rail (like on the P-01) which would be very useful for putting lights and lasers on the Rami.
Hi MeatAxe,
Respectfully, I was soliciting corroboration (or otherwise) with regard to fit, or feel in hand, a.k.a. ergonomics, not cosmetics. I fully agree (and said!) that the RAMI is an ugly duckling for its "1911-esque styling cues" compared to the traditional CZ 75, CZ 97 sculpted chamfer over the trigger guard.
The topic is that there has to be a best-feeling pistol of all: irrespective of weight, balance, cosmetics, or tactical mount type stuff.
Given that I agree with you entirely with respect to your comments, can you now please advise: is your (14 Round Extended Magazine-fitted) RAMI the best feeling pistol you've experienced? If not, what do you think better, and why?
Best regards,
PappaWheelie
Member, Gun Owners of America
CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
UBG: CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical Urban Grey Suppressor-ready
-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 07:22:26 PM »
I'm no fan of the scalloped dust cover forward of the trigger guard. I have no use for cosmetic 1911-esque styling cues in place of a rail (like on the P-01) which would be very useful for putting lights and lasers on the Rami.
Hi MeatAxe,
Respectfully, I was soliciting corroboration (or otherwise) with regard to fit, or feel in hand, a.k.a. ergonomics, not cosmetics. I fully agree (and said!) that the RAMI is an ugly duckling for its "1911-esque styling cues" compared to the traditional CZ 75, CZ 97 sculpted chamfer over the trigger guard.
The topic is that there has to be a best-feeling pistol of all: irrespective of weight, balance, cosmetics, or tactical mount type stuff.
Given that I agree with you entirely with respect to your comments, can you now please advise: is your (14 Round Extended Magazine-fitted) RAMI the best feeling pistol you've experienced? If not, what do you think better, and why?
Best regards,
PappaWheelie


Sorry, my lips got tired reading about half way through the OP! :D

I think all the CZ75 variations and their clones are about the most comfortable and ergonomic feeling handguns I've ever used, and that includes the Rami. I actually don't feel a lot of difference between the Rami and my P-01.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 01:44:49 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline MrOgre

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 09:02:52 PM »
RAMI, 75Compact, 97, all feel pretty good in my XXL hands. But the most ergonomic gun I've got is my Browning Hi-Power. I bobbed the hammer, so the hammer bite is kept to a reasonable lever. Nothing feels as "pointable".
But, alas, they are now out of production. So for current production guns, it's hard to beat the CZ lineup.

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 09:04:04 PM »
Nah, Shield 45 is better.
Better in what way(s), Earl?
Respectfully, in light of over 2,400 posts and almost a year difference in our CZ Forum "seniority," your post would be more informative if you'd be so kind as to post a pair of images like
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qHV2T-FzuUHrgMnlOH6qCeaB86afLZM3
comparing your extended magazine RAMI in-hand with your Shield 45 in-hand, and with some qualitative notes highlighting the comparative advantages of an axially long, narrow-sectioned plastic grip over that of the RAMI's even more highly ovalled than 1911, diamond-textured rubber faced grip.
You don't mention extended magazine: assuming you use the slightly-extended 7+1 mag, is it also your opinion that the RAMI's full fingered, forward-hooking (both front and rear) grip is a disadvantage with respect to the Shield's unrounded butt?
I'm amazed that if you've acquired an extended-magazine RAMI since this post
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=81579.msg598010#msg598010
there is not a single mention of it on czfirearms.us -if I'm incorrect please post the link(s), otherwise kindly consider deleting your post as failing to qualify per the requested constraint "owners of the incomparable CZ 2075 RAMI...".
Thanks!
Breathe in...........breathe out. I actually thought your original post was tongue in cheek. Kinda still do.  :o

Offline PappaWheelie

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 09:17:28 PM »
Breathe in...........breathe out. I actually thought your original post was tongue in cheek. Kinda still do.  :o
Hi Earl,
So your "Nah..." post was also to be interpreted tongue-in-cheek? Makes sense upon reflection, the Shield 45 being evidently so far from "best" ergo.

If you'll delete your (illegal? and) counterproductive posts I'll quickly delete my above (and this) response. Alternatively please show the legitimizing links to your RAMI w/ 14 round extended mag posts, and the requested pics and rationale for why the Shield 45 comment was serious.
Cheers!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 03:36:07 PM by PappaWheelie, Reason: added "s" to make post -> posts »
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CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
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-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 09:47:18 PM »
I'm not deleting my posts until you prove ownership of a Shield 45. Otherwise, your negative comments regarding its ergonomics are without basis.  :)

Offline PappaWheelie

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Re: Ontological Certitude
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 10:27:48 AM »
I'm not deleting my posts until you prove ownership of a Shield 45. Otherwise, your negative comments regarding its ergonomics are without basis.  :)
Your choice, Earl:
I offered a gracious, "no traces" exit, which still* stands, although I'm now less motivated to check in to see if you accepted.
You're free to remain a topic dodger for as long as you desire, but imho I don't think these posts burnish your credibility.
Besides being "off the topic" (of having created an illegitimate post), your "ownership" reply is total nonsense to an owner of both the state-of-the-art 45ACP pistol, the CZ 97 BD with "real gun" DA/SA functionality and TruDot Tritium night sights, and, for concealed carry, the ergonomically incomparable and totally concealable extended magazine version of the CZ 2075 RAMI BD with "real gun" DA/SA functionality and TruDot Tritium night sights! I'm grateful to be without "Buyers Remorse" in my firearms purchases and intend to stay that way.
Please send me a PM alert if you change your mind and delete your posts: I'll delete mine as soon as practicable thereafter.
I look forward to a long and cordial czfirearms.us relationship!
Best regards,
PappaWheelie

*at least until quoted by others...
Member, Gun Owners of America
CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
UBG: CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical Urban Grey Suppressor-ready
-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth