The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: DanielBoone on January 03, 2015, 04:53:33 AM
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Sold out in less than 24 hours... Anyone jump in?
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/vz-58-military-762cp?l=1
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It's nice that it's set up for a side rail .
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Hmmm...
$850 more than a VZ2008. I don't think so. I could have gotten three VZ2008's and still have money left over for a nice steak dinner.
Has anyone shot one of these and a VZ2008 in the same exact conditions, to compare accuracy? Having the receiver drilled for the optic mount is very nice. And the finish is obviously nicer on these. But no threaded barrel to switch out muzzle devices is a real bummer. That offsets the drilling for the optic mount in my mind. I'd rather have the VZ58 just due to the nicer finish, and probably a longer service life for the barrel. But no going to be paying $850 more for it.
Fire suit on.
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Free bayonet and scabbard while supplies last.
What a deal
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Very nice. Missed it. Not too many of these left with the original barrels. Does anyone know what the total number available was?
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Free bayonet and scabbard while supplies last.
What a deal
LOL!
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I would rather pay the 1250 and know for sure it will go bang every time.
No gremlins for me, if I owned one of the 399 copies I would forever be waiting for problems to POp up.
Buy once, cry once
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I am happy to pay Czechpoint's prices (and have three times). I'd bet my life a VZ58 will work when I need it. They seem to sell out every batch. You don't want to pay Czechpoint price and I respect your opinion on that! RESPECTFULLY - That's not why I started this thread though;). Fair enough? That debate is rather stale...
So anyway....I am a huge of the new builds. I wonder if they will have a threaded barrel version when the surplus barrels run out?
VZ58 and VZ2008,
Friends 4ever:)
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Back on topic.
I love the build
This has all the things I want change about my low serial number D-technic,
Tapped for scope rail, and bayonet
My D-technic only has the little extension and I wish it had the brake
I have owned 2 CSA rifles and would love to get a build like this with the original barrels
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Oh I forgot to mention the steel trigger!!!!
I don't love the polymer trigger on the D-technic, I trust it to never fail, but would prefer to have a steel one like this new rifle build.
I am pretty sold on this rifle, I will have to reserve some cash to snag one in March
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I am happy to pay Czechpoint's prices (and have three times). I'd bet my life a VZ58 will work when I need it. They seem to sell out every batch. You don't want to pay Czechpoint price and I respect your opinion on that! RESPECTFULLY - That's not why I started this thread though;). Fair enough? That debate is rather stale...
So anyway....I am a huge of the new builds. I wonder if they will have a threaded barrel version when the surplus barrels run out?
VZ58 and VZ2008,
Friends 4ever:)
Unfortunately their will always be responses like that from some vz2008 fan boys, unfortunately it is what it is. But hey theirs people outhere who research between the czechpoint vz and the century vz2008, and do appreciate a properly quality built as close as we can get to an original vz58 built in the USA 8) got an email 1-2-15 of these for sale and less than 24hrs all sold out...bleep that's pretty impressive considering those prices. If I was not so tied up on other firearms right now...would have snatched one up already
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I am happy to pay Czechpoint's prices (and have three times). I'd bet my life a VZ58 will work when I need it. They seem to sell out every batch. You don't want to pay Czechpoint price and I respect your opinion on that! RESPECTFULLY - That's not why I started this thread though;). Fair enough? That debate is rather stale...
So anyway....I am a huge of the new builds. I wonder if they will have a threaded barrel version when the surplus barrels run out?
VZ58 and VZ2008,
Friends 4ever:)
They already do have a threaded version. German barrels I believe; and almost certainly better steel than the Czechs are using in manufacture these days... There was a big thread on that awhile back. Personally, I wouldn't buy the original just b/c I fear the puddle welds will anneal the barrel, exacerbating muzzle wear... What's another 1/2 inch!?
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65707
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I would rather pay the 1250 and know for sure it will go bang every time.
No gremlins for me, if I owned one of the 399 copies I would forever be waiting for problems to POp up.
Buy once, cry once
Thoroughly inspect upon receipt, add a tab, and there's no reason why the VZ2008 won't go bang. Personally, I think folks are far ahead to start with the VZ2008s (for one, they're regularly available and roughly the same price as parts kits plus an FFL fee), and then move into the Czechpoints once they decide they're fully committed to the platform...
I don't like the forward to fire safety, polymer fcg components, and the fact that side rails prevent you from installing an ambi-safety. I also don't like that Czechpoint at their prices don't allow you to select the trigger guard and front sight block types (I'm only interested in protected and open eared, preferably third gen w/ lightening cuts). Otherwise, it's increasingly a wash now that the barrels are no longer surplus -- that was my big gripe. They're still using chrome -- why when nitriding is so much cheaper and more effective and has little to negative affect on accuracy, unlike chrome!? And the fact that they continue to insist upon mag parts for 922r is ridiculous, especially when only supplying two mags. So you still need a CNC Warrior Piston and CNC/Bonesteel FCG if you want to lose that requirement...
These Classic/Military rifles also appear to be now largely built by Czechpoint... So understand they're brand new to the VZ58 building game too. https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/sa-vz58-rifles
And with the classics, I'd really they'd standardize the mag releases, front sight blocks, and furniture at a minimum all to the same generation rather than the usual mishmash of parts...
I've use the GM/Ford vs Lexus/Mercedes argument before, and that's pretty much where I remain on the debate. There are tradeoffs for both...
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They already do have a threaded version. German barrels I believe; and almost certainly better steel than the Czechs are using in manufacture these days... There was a big thread on that awhile back. Personally, I wouldn't buy the original just b/c I fear the puddle welds will anneal the barrel, exacerbating muzzle wear... What's another 1/2 inch!?
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I own two of the CP threaded versions you linked to... - I meant adding a threaded barrel to the Czechpoint build they just put out (when the orig surplus barrels sell out). Cheers!
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It looks like they're trying to get rid of parts kits...
Barrels can no longer be imported, so the answer is probably, but if the original furniture runs out at the same time as the barrels, the answer will be no.
Don't know if you recall, but the reason Czechpoint/CSA switched over entirely to black polymer was b/c the supply of first rate/unissued surplus furniture kits dried up...
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If your wondering about why their still using chrome lined barrels....well maybe dan from czechpoint got the last original batches from csa or other source that are originally chrome lined...why nitrate when it comes chrome already? If your wondering about czechpoint chromelined barrels accuracy, here's a group I shot doing a side by side compare with my cz USA vz and vz2008 back in 2011
This is a 10 shot group at 50y, vz USA cz58 using a vortex sparc reddot
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/027-1.jpg)
Not the best group, but not bad from A chromelined barrel
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Do you have the results from the VZ2008?
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To be clear, I'm not saying chrome lined barrels are bad. I'm saying they're no longer the best based upon available options. Especially US made chrome lined barrels where the chrome is pretty thin... A lot of the times, nitriding a barrel will completely displace the chrome...
Secondly, with 922r, the VZ2008 and CSA VZ58s have the same number of US made parts. It's just a question of which parts. Century uses a US made barrel and receiver. The Czech guns don't...
Thirdly, I don't like that Czechpoint is the importer, distributor, and sole retailer of these CSA weapons. As consumers, that's not in our best interest, especially if you're wanting the VZ58 to be more than niche weapon (niche weapons have expensive and limited accessories, etc -- the VZ2008 has done wonders for making folks like manticore actually look at producing things domestically, especially now that Canada has largely ceased VZ58 product manufacture/importation...).
And to be clear, I'm not saying boycott Czechpoint as that's not a realistic option... But if I were spending Czechpoint money, I'd personally go the custom build option w/ a CNC Warrior receiver... And I plan to as my VZ2008 barrels reach their ends of life... The only gun Czechpoint currently offers that peaks my interest are the carbine pistols, but with the latest Sig Brace letters, I'm waiting as I'm not necessarily sure that it's worth the SBR hassle for me...
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I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now!
I had planned to build a second AR pistol. But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace. My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.
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I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now!
I had planned to build a second AR pistol. But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace. My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.
Same boat.
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I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now!
I had planned to build a second AR pistol. But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace. My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.
Would you please elaborate
What atf letter is that ?
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The sum/majority/all of the latest letters coming out of ATF Tech Branch say that mounting pistol braces to one's shoulder is converting the weapon to an SBR, making an illegal SBR... The only letter I've seen to the contrary is the one that originally allowed sig to sell their first brace/bring it to market...
The main scary thing here is the "constructive possession" angle rather than necessarily mounting to one's shoulder as that can be avoided if the law changes... Just owning a sig brace could potentially make you guilty of felony...
Lastest:
Just saw this today:
http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-atf-issues-new-opinion-letter-stating-that-shouldering-sig-brace-is-illegal/
BREAKING: ATF Issues New Opinion Letter Stating That Shouldering Sig Brace Could Be Illegal
DECEMBER 26 2014
[...]
However, several recent letters, including the one that just emerged in the last 24 hours, tends to show that the ATF is changing their tune on shouldering arm braces.
Here is the letter in question which was posted AR15.com earlier today (however the letter seems to be from November). Note paragraph 5 of the 2nd page:
[...]
The Sig Sauer SB-15 pistol stabilizing brace is designed so that a shooter would insert his or her forearm into the device while gripping the pistol's handgrip -- then tighten the Velcro straps for additional support and retention. As designed, the device provides the shooter with additional support of a firearm while it is still held and operated with one hand Consequently, a Sig SB-15 shoting brace is not designed or intended for firing a weapon from the shoulder.
Consequently, the attachment of the SB-15 to an AR-type pistol alone; would not change the classification of the pistol to an SBR. However, if this device, un-modified or modified; is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock, thus designing or redesigning or making or remaking of a weapon design to be fired from the shoulder; this assembly would constitute the making of a "rifle" as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(7).
[...]
Further, if this device, un-modified or modified; is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock, in the designing or redesigning or making or remaking of a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder, which incorporates a barrel length of less than 16 inches; this assemble would constitute the making of a "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"; an NFA firearm as defined in 26 U.S.C., Section 5845(a)(3).
[...]
It would seem that all recent letters to the ATF are getting a similar response in regards to braces ? the ATF isn?t cool with it.
[...]
Once again, these are just opinion letters. The real test would come in a criminal court if someone was caught shouldering an AR pistol and arrested.
Click through for more: http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-atf-issues-new-opinion-letter-stating-that-shouldering-sig-brace-is-illegal/
One prior:
I don't think this writer fully understands the ATF shotgun brace decision -- scroll back a few pages for a more nuanced, and I think accurate, discussion of the facts there...
Regardless more of the same on mounting a pistol brace to your shoulder being considered "converting" the weapon to a different class -- this time from a non-NFA to a NFA class vs the shotgun which was from one NFA class to another...
AR Pistol Braces Get Even More Confusing Following Latest ATF Letter
12/20/14
Like the recent shotgun letter, this letter seems to show that the ATF may be backtracking on their original ?intent and use? decisions. The new letter states the following [emphasis added by the ATF]:
Based on our evaluation, FTISB finds that the submitted forearm brace, when attached to a pistol is a ?firearm? subject to the GCA provisions; however, it is not a ?firearm? as defined by the NFA provided that the Blade AR Pistol Stabilizer is used as originally designed and NOT as a shoulder stock.
Of course, as everyone knows ATF letters only apply to the individual products they are referencing. However, it is an interesting datapoint that might show a general change in position from the ATF on forearm braces. I?m not trying to tell anyone what is/is not legal or trying to read the ATF?s mind, just passing along data points.
Click through for more: http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/ar-pistol-braces-get-even-more-confusing-following-latest-atf-letter/
And the shotgun one:
ATF changed their mind about the brace on a Shotgun, not on a pistol. I don't see them changing their minds soon.
That particular instance also involved a forward grip on the shotgun, which a SBS can't have. I you're absolutely right about the brace on a pistol.
The guy already had an "any other weapon" NFA class weapon, for which a foregrip is allowed. The ATF said mounting the Sig brace to one's shoulder, not to the weapon, is what effectively changed the class from an "any other weapon" to "short barrel shotgun." Further discussion follows.
Here's the letter in question: http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/
I read this as a gamechanger:
However, should an individual utilize the SigTac SB15 pistol staabilizing brace on the submitted sample as a shoulder stock to fire the weapon from the shoulder, this firearm would be classified as a "short-barreled shotgun" as defined in the NFA, 26 U.S.C. SS 5845(a)(1) because the brace has then been made or remade, designed or redesigned form its originally intended purpose.
The letter is now stating that using the Sig Brace as a stock is now in fact for all intents converting the firearm into a separate category NFA firearm per the ATF's view. Whether it's a shotgun or a pistol AR really shouldn't matter in how the ATF interprets the use of this accessory...
To reiterate, it's not the presence of the brace on the weapon, it's the mounting of the brace to the shoulder that resulted it in changing categories.
My summation of the letter from what can be seen:
What it looks like in this case was that the guy had a legal Any Other Weapon, "AOW." He then asked guidance on adding the Sig Brace. The shotgun would remain an AOW with the Sig Brace installed and used as designed. But use the sig brace as a "stock" (mounting to the shoulder) on the AOW and the AOW in question would then become a Short Barrel Shotgun, "SBS", and you would be in violation of the NFA unless you had in fact registered as a SBS rather than an AOW. So again, just mounting the brace to the shoulder is in effect "converting" your weapon.
Now to what degree the $5 AOW stamp vs the $200 SBS NFA tax stamps affected is unknown... But what is known is that just the act of a mounting a weapon equipped to one's shoulder with a stabilizing brace now at least converts it to a different weapon classification in this particular case per the ATF's most recent ruling. And if previous rulings hold -- if you've ever mounted the Sig Brace to your shoulder, the weapon will forever need to maintain an SBS registration, even if you remove the Sig Brace... Not doing so, or not having a SBS registration prior to mounting to your shoulder, means your committing a felony that the ATF could document, prosecute, and result in you forever losing your ability to order firearms. (Or if you document those actions for them through phone pics or videos, or anything touched by the NSA, all they'd have to do is prosecute.)
AND, IMO this is major, it opens anyone with a sig brace on their weapon to possible charges of "intent to manufacture an illegal weapon" should the ATF decide to make your life miserable. So if you have a shotgun "pistol" and also own a sig brace you're playing with fire. Just like if you own an AR and M16 full auto FCG components...
And that's before we even start to worry about mission creep, etc...
More background on ATF shotgun classification:
Previously, shotguns could have barrels of less than 18" in length if they never had a buttstock attached -- b/c only if a shotgun is sold with a buttstock attached does the ATF define it as a "shotgun." Like how you register AR receivers as a pistol but once converted to or registered as a rifle you can't convert back to a pistol w/o filing paperwork with the ATF...
Here's more on the previous shotgun rulings: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
EDIT: Cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tsRTVeYUL-gJ:shockwavetechnologies.com/site/%3Fpage_id%3D88+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I get a lot of questions from customers about the ?new? ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14? barrels that aren?t considered NFA items.
Well, first off, let me say, it?s not a new ruling. It?s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them?they?re NOT shotguns! They?re simply firearms. As such, they don?t necessarily need to have 18?+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.
You see, the very definition of a ?shotgun? requires that it be ?designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder?? Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can?t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14? barrel, they can?t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren?t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT
PGO firearms that remain longer than 26? in overall length also can?t be defined as AOWs. That?s because the term ?any other weapon? (AOW) means ?any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person?? And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26?. Read the full definition of an AOW here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT
More on the subject is available in these two letters to Len Savage?the guy who will be making a lot of these non-NFA firearms in the coming months and years:
July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf
Page 1 of third letter http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/RedactedPg1.jpg
Page 2 of third letter http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/redactedPg2.jpg
All that said, I?m not a firearms attorney. And I?m not offering legal advice here. I am simply relating things the way I understand them. Be sure you check with all the appropriate agencies.
Now, a pistol-grip-only Mossberg 500 with a 14? barrel and the Raptor Grip installed measures 26.5? in overall length (measured parallel to the bore).
?Marty
So putting the sig brace on a less than 18" barrel shotgun with no buttstock but an overall length of at least 26" -- generally defined as a "firearm" per ATF -- is okay. But mount that Sig brace quipped firearm to you shoulder then it becomes a "shotgun" (or at least apparently per this ruling/letter).
And Black Aces (the guy the letter is too) is doing a lot of innovative shotgun stuff and likely interfaces with the ATF quite frequently on those mods, so it doesn't appear to be some yahoo just wanting to pull the fire alarm: http://www.blackacestactical.com/
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Do you have the results from the VZ2008?
Yes I do
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I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now!
I had planned to build a second AR pistol. But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace. My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.
Would you please elaborate
What atf letter is that ?
As usual Mac does a great job explaining the current issues regarding the sig brace. Don't know what's so hard to understand it's sold as an "arm brace". Not shoulder brace/stock
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TYx3A80aBi0
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Don't know what's so hard to understand it's sold as an "arm brace". Not shoulder brace/stock
B/c previously they said no matter how the braces were used, including as stocks, they were legal as the ATF did not classify them as stocks and accordingly using them as stocks is not "made or remade, designed or redesigned" -- most recent letters directly contradict very transparent previous advisement and say in fact mounting to shoulder is now "made or remade, designed or redesigned"
Here's the previous letter:
(http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/216207869-SIG-BATFE-LETTER-695x900.jpg)
In MAC's video, go to 7:20 and watch/listen for a minute or so, and then take a look at the latest sig brace:
(http://cdn3.volusion.com/bosgt.mtuyr/v/vspfiles/photos/SIG-SBX-AR-BLK-2.jpg)
(http://content.osagecountyguns.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/500x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/b/sbx-ar-blk-07_1.jpg)
No more cheek weld enhancement and much less area to absorb recoil into your shoulder on the rear and a complete loss of the typical stock "look." I think he's spot on for the reclassification speculation... Which he disagrees with...
Here's the gen 1 for comparison:
(http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/proshop/product/SB15-Detail.jpg)
(http://images.rockwellarms.com/ProductImages/SigSauer/Pistols/PM400-11B-S-PSB-alt2.jpg)
Choose or not believe his "fabrication" speculation. I also think he's reading the letter as the way he wants to read it... But perhaps I'm overly skeptical...
And I agree with his assessment that buying the brace on a pistol from the factory with a letter for that specific pistol is the way to go... Building yourself (anything perhaps but an AR15 pistol...) by putting an AR pistol tube on some other "pistol" just so you can install the sig brace, does seem dicey... Buffer tubes are required for an AR15 to function, not so on many other "pistols."
The thorsden cheek weld setups still look like options though as their purpose is "cheek weld" for the purpose of better aligning sight/sight picture on the pistol tube and not to put to ones shoulder... And they have ATF letters covering their use on at least the AR platform... Their letter: http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/2675/atf_responce_letter.pdf
Q5: Would our buffer tube cover with cheek rise cause an AR pistol to be classified as a
short barreted rifle under the National Firearms Act or would it be classified as simply a
cheek rise along with other similar products?
A5: Shoulder stocks normally attach to the receiver of a shoulder-fired firearm.
However, in the case of an AR-type frrearm, such stocks attach to the buffer tube. The
shoulder stock provides a means for the shooter to support the firearm and easily aim it.
FTB finds that the depicted "cheek rest" is not designed to support the AR-15 pistol in
the shoulder of the shooter during firing but, rather, to rest against the shooter's cheek.
Consequently, the attachment of the cheek rest to the AR-type pistol would not change
the classification of the pistol to SBR.
More on their cheek rest setup:
Just came across this -- looks like a great option as well:
(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-5.jpg)
(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-8.jpg)
Image source and good read: http://www.recoilweb.com/friday-night-gun-porn-compliant-ar-option-and-an-ar-pistol-43401.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHyIoxD8Y1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-JYbgigVw
Stock tube cover -- $26.99 to $36.99 (more expensive having quick detach sling connects)
Saddle adapter kit -- $18.99
Saddle -- $26.49
Should ~$80-$100 delivered. That is cheaper than the Sig Brace...
http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL.htm
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Exactly correct.
They tell us it's OK. The pistol/Sig brace market explodes. No telling how many of these things have been sold in the last 10 months. Now they seem to be backstroking. What are all the guys with pistols/Sig braces supposed to do if they do in fact say it's not legal?
I'd love to see us push for getting rid of these stupid SBR rules. And suppressors too, while we're at it. Both are very antiquated laws.
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Thordsen has been sold out. The only thing stopping me from purchasing my next pistol is the availability of the pistol in the US -- if the Thordsen tube is not an option I will SBR it. Whatever.
Still (STILL) waiting for my tax stamps for my first SBR and suppressor.
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Not the best group, but not bad from A chromelined barrel
Better than any group I have ever shot :P Impressive in my book -- I couldn't find the tenth hole.
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Do you have the results from the VZ2008?
Yes I do
Will you post said results?
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Do you have the results from the VZ2008?
Yes I do
Will you post said results?
If anything will start a new thread, seems were getting off track on this thread
Back on topic
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/01/05/czechpoint-now-producing-vz-58-rifles-house/
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Thordsen has been sold out. The only thing stopping me from purchasing my next pistol is the availability of the pistol in the US -- if the Thordsen tube is not an option I will SBR it. Whatever.
Still (STILL) waiting for my tax stamps for my first SBR and suppressor.
I just don't know how acceptable AR tubes are on non-ARs. They aren't required for function and are typically only mounted for the purposes of mounting stocks... We would really be ahead if Czechpoint developed their own pistol brace and sold the brace and teh pistol as one unit, as well as the brace by itself in their store...
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Thordsen has been sold out. The only thing stopping me from purchasing my next pistol is the availability of the pistol in the US -- if the Thordsen tube is not an option I will SBR it. Whatever.
Still (STILL) waiting for my tax stamps for my first SBR and suppressor.
Don't see why you couldn't take a standard stock tube and put jb weld in the hole portion... Their stock tube is the only thing that's out of stock... Best of my knowledge -- and not a lawyer -- it's what you mount to buffer tubes that the ATF defines as a stock, not the tube itself... So so long as an AR stock can't be installed on the tube, you should be GTG.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff455/DonFerrando/BB.jpg)
Also, the ledge doesn't look to be required either to install the Thorsden setup, just makes it more secure: http://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/comments/2f96mo/questions_about_thordsenkak_tube_compatibility_as/
Again, not sure about the legal footing of an AR buffer tube on a weapon where it's not essential... Might be ahead to stick w/ ARs and SBR other platforms before adding...
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Hmmm...
$850 more than a VZ2008. I don't think so. I could have gotten three VZ2008's and still have money left over for a nice steak dinner.
Has anyone shot one of these and a VZ2008 in the same exact conditions, to compare accuracy? Having the receiver drilled for the optic mount is very nice. And the finish is obviously nicer on these. But no threaded barrel to switch out muzzle devices is a real bummer. That offsets the drilling for the optic mount in my mind. I'd rather have the VZ58 just due to the nicer finish, and probably a longer service life for the barrel. But no going to be paying $850 more for it.
Fire suit on.
I agree!! Can someone please tell me why they would pay that much when they could have got the Vz2008 for $379?
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sigh,
Would someone tell me why someone would spend 100,000 dollars on a Mercedes
When a new corolla can be bought for 14,000?
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sigh,
Would someone tell me why someone would spend 100,000 dollars on a Mercedes
When a new corolla can be bought for 14,000?
So you are saying my vz2008's are corolla's and the other is that much better to be a mercedes???
I have some grate AK's, fn fal, sigs and others piston Ar's and I think my 2 vz2008s are way better than any other rifle I have fired..
I absolutely love both of my VZ2008's..All time favorite hands down. And I think I'm a VZ2008 "FAN BOY" for sure!!
Never had a problem..
With that price I could buy 3 of the made in USA vz2008s and still have enough to buy more mags and a "steak dinner!"
Maybe I need to try and go rent one of these other Vz 58 builds, but I can't imagine what could possibly make that big of a difference.
I'm new to this board and still learning. so you must know more than i do..
Please school me why mine is a corolla and the other is a mercedes..
Thanks
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Great part of America is that you're free to spend your money how you wish... Nothing wrong with paying more if you wish... Don't need to start all the flaming again...
Both are completely functional rifles and both have the same number of Czech parts. Those parts just vary. Prices also vary. Make your choice based upon what's best for you.
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Great part of America is that you're free to spend your money how you wish... Nothing wrong with paying more if you wish... Don't need to start all the flaming again...
Both are completely functional rifles and both have the same number of Czech parts. Those parts just vary. Prices also vary. Make your choice based upon what's best for you.
Thanks
Please don't get me wrong. I'm really not trying to start all the flaming again..
I really want to know what is the big difference to justify such a price disparity between $379 and $1,250.00???
I'm sure if that CSA vz 58 is anything like my VZ2008s it imust be an awesome rifle as well!
I thank you for letting me know.
Cheers!
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sigh,
Would someone tell me why someone would spend 100,000 dollars on a Mercedes
When a new corolla can be bought for 14,000?
A Mercedes and a corolla have far different features and cannot be compared in this vz argument.
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A Mercedes and a corolla have far different features and cannot be compared in this vz argument.
The points I consider are the badging (Czech Receiver), the materials (primarily barrel being Czech/German for CSA and German luxury usually running more expensive alloys), and the finishes (luxury items have finer finishes both internal and out -- CSA will have less machining marks and enamel over parkerizing or whatever they use on the receiver under enamel, whereas Century will have more machining marks and has a teflon finish).
How they're similar: both have engines, tires, hold same # of people, and similar reliability...
The main functional difference between Century VZ2008s and CSA guns is the bolt carrier tab.
First gen VZ2008s had the tab and the AWO/ORF receiver that closely mimicked the CSA guns. CSA sued Century for patent infringement, which led to the receiver changes and tab deletion best I can tell. The semi auto VZ58 has to have the tab, so you're going to want to add that yourself if you own a VZ2008...
These are good reads too, but with Czechpoint now making some rifles here w/ varying 922r parts, and now w/ 16" German barrel -- some of these won't apply.
http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/7-general-discussion/7380-if-you-considering-vz-58-a.html
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/rifles/26466-cz-58-versus-vz2008.html
Inversely, there's this review on CSA being superior, but read the comments for add'l discussion: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/joe-grine/gun-review-czech-vzor-58/
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A Mercedes and a corolla have far different features and cannot be compared in this vz argument.
The points I consider are the badging (Czech Receiver), the materials (primarily barrel being Czech/German for CSA and German luxury usually running more expensive alloys), and the finishes (luxury items have finer finishes both internal and out -- CSA will have less machining marks and enamel over parkerizing or whatever they use on the receiver under enamel, whereas Century will have more machining marks and has a teflon finish).
How they're similar: both have engines, tires, hold same # of people, and similar reliability...
The main functional difference between Century VZ2008s and CSA guns is the bolt carrier tab.
First gen VZ2008s had the tab and the AWO/ORF receiver that closely mimicked the CSA guns. CSA sued Century for patent infringement, which led to the receiver changes and tab deletion best I can tell. The semi auto VZ58 has to have the tab, so you're going to want to add that yourself if you own a VZ2008...
These are good reads too, but with Czechpoint now making some rifles here w/ varying 922r parts, and now w/ 16" German barrel -- some of these won't apply.
http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/7-general-discussion/7380-if-you-considering-vz-58-a.html
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/rifles/26466-cz-58-versus-vz2008.html
Inversely, there's this review on CSA being superior, but read the comments for add'l discussion: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/joe-grine/gun-review-czech-vzor-58/
Thank you for that info..
I have one question though.....If both of mine fire without any problems.. Could you explain why I need a tab?? I have hundreds if not thousand of rounds through both myVz2008s
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See the gremlin sticky.
Mainly if you're looking for an optimally light trigger is where you'll see gremlins w/ the VZ2008, though it's not the exclusive cause.
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See the gremlin sticky.
Mainly if you're looking for an optimally light trigger is where you'll see gremlins w/ the VZ2008, though it's not the exclusive cause.
Ok. thanks I will check that sticky out.
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I looked at my investment in my DTechnic vz58 as an investment in possible life saving gear.
I have a couple other fun rifles. Sks's. But my vz58 is my "go to war" option if you will, and I want this option to be as rugged as it can be and as risistant to the weather as possible.
I was also sure I was going to want to upgrade to an ambi mag release and tactical bolt release and those upgrades are more successful on the CSA builds
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*Finish is said to be nicer on the CSA. Although I'm more than pleased with the finish on my ZV2008, now that I have it in hand.
*The barrels are chrome lined Czech barrels. There is a whole long debate about the value of chrome lining. But it's generally accepted that it is preferred. However, it's said that the VZ2008 barrels are from Green Mountain. A company known for quality barrels. So I'm not sure there is any advantage at all with barrels.
*The CSA carrier is already tabbed. You need to spend $50 to get the VZ2008 carrier tabbed. Cost difference down to only $800 now.
*The VZ2008 comes with bolt hold open after the last round. IMHO, that far outweighs the tabbed carrier of the CSA.
Unless you put a whole lot of value on how the finish looks, no way I'd spend $800 more for the CSA.
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*Finish is said to be nicer on the CSA. Although I'm more than pleased with the finish on my ZV2008, now that I have it in hand.
*The barrels are chrome lined Czech barrels. There is a whole long debate about the value of chrome lining. But it's generally accepted that it is preferred. However, it's said that the VZ2008 barrels are from Green Mountain. A company known for quality barrels. So I'm not sure there is any advantage at all with barrels.
*The CSA carrier is already tabbed. You need to spend $50 to get the VZ2008 carrier tabbed. Cost difference down to only $800 now.
*The VZ2008 comes with bolt hold open after the last round. IMHO, that far outweighs the tabbed carrier of the CSA.
Unless you put a whole lot of value on how the finish looks, no way I'd spend $800 more for the CSA.
Thanks! I also heard that in some test the VZ2008 barrel was more accurate??? Is that possible??
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If Green Mountain made it, then it's absolutely possible.
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Oh, I forgot another plus for the VZ2008... the barrel comes threaded, so you can switch up muzzle devices to your heart's content.
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Though for new people with open minds and haven't made a choice yet - Czechpoint has versions with threaded barrel as well... I have carried weapons professionally and choose Czechpoint hands down. I'm sure plenty of others in my boat would choose VZ2008 - I just don't care. This debate popping up in threads is as consistent as a good case of herpies - like those threads on the merits of the 5.56 - always returning. If anyone bought a rifle that was subject of this thread, like I happily did, PM me when you get yours
I give up
NO offense to those posting - its the open forum. Just been there done that re: Czechpoint YAY or NAY (YAY).....For six years.
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Great thread. ::) Lmao
My VZ59 is on the way home from the OEM fitted for a new heavy barrel. It was a tough decision to get the original VZ59 with the added heavy Czech barrel, original Czech tripods, optics, brakes, extra springs, linear hammers, belts etc... when I could have bought at least 17 VZ2008s instead, or a used Corolla. ;)
I think the CSA Czechpont VZ58 is the bleep. I would love to get one to add to the collection.
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Though for new people with open minds and haven't made a choice yet - Czechpoint has versions with threaded barrel as well... I have carried weapons professionally and choose Czechpoint hands down. I'm sure plenty of others in my boat would choose VZ2008 - I just don't care. This debate popping up in threads is as consistent as a good case of herpies - like those threads on the merits of the 5.56 - always returning. If anyone bought a rifle that was subject of this thread, like I happily did, PM me when you get yours
I give up
NO offense to those posting - its the open forum. Just been there done that re: Czechpoint YAY or NAY (YAY).....For six years.
I'm sure your rifle is awesome!!
I just want to know what you think are the advantages of the more expensive option.. I'm new here so excuse my ignorance..
Please tell me about your rifle..
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Though for new people with open minds and haven't made a choice yet - Czechpoint has versions with threaded barrel as well... I have carried weapons professionally and choose Czechpoint hands down. I'm sure plenty of others in my boat would choose VZ2008 - I just don't care. This debate popping up in threads is as consistent as a good case of herpies - like those threads on the merits of the 5.56 - always returning. If anyone bought a rifle that was subject of this thread, like I happily did, PM me when you get yours
I give up
NO offense to those posting - its the open forum. Just been there done that re: Czechpoint YAY or NAY (YAY).....For six years.
Congrats on the purchase, would like to see some close up pics of Czechpoints first USA built VZ58 8)
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Me too!! Please post pics of it when it arrives
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CollectorVegas - Hey, forums are great for info and questions. Never feel bad about asking anything. I'd google something like "Czechpoint vs. VZ2008" and you'll see TONS of threads comparing the two (including posts on this forum). Or - ask away here. I just shy away from that debate personally since it is WELL covered. If my buddy and I are getting shot at - I'd worry more that I'm in a fight with a brother I trust my life to than whether his rifle is this or that.... as long as he is comfortable with and trusts his choice, so do I. Same goes here - I like the threads that dive into the deep aspects of the rifles. I wish there was more clear info (threads) on dates/stamps/changes of all the parts we see on both versions. I.E. - year of changes in trigger guards, sights, stocks, slings; hidden yet original Czech marks on all our rifles, etc. There is some scattered info in searches - but not one dedicated collector guide I can find... RSR?
Have fun with it!
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Stuff like THIS would be awesome for more aspects of the rifle:
http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/vz_58_bayonets/vz_58s.html
;)
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Me too!! Please post pics of it when it arrives
Yes please post pic and videos when your rifle arrives.. I would love to check it out! Thanks!
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http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/vz_58_bayonets/vz_58s.html
Interesting link - thanks for posting it. It's the first time I've seen the "Green vinyl scabbard for use with the VZ?58 bayonet in nuclear, biological, and chemical (NBC) warfare environments."
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They pop up on ebay from time to time. There's a corresponding mag pouch I believe as well.
Actually, here's the full suit. Great price if the seller has any left; it's an old listing...
(http://my.frooition.com/100149/images/Chem%20Suit%201.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Long-Term-Exposure-Czech-Military-3-Layer-Biological-NBC-Chemical-Suit-Set-/290834163805
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sJFN%2B5D1L._SX342_.jpg)
EDIT: Their website shows out of stock too: http://www.militarygearzone.com/item/apparel/new-long-term-exposure-czech-m/lid=31277579
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Wow, cold war fashion forward.
All I can think of is "Hello, Stalker"...
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I've got some chem/bio suits. I think I'd trust mine a bit more than those things!
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I've got some chem/bio suits. I think I'd trust mine a bit more than those things!
Yeah, collector reasons only -- not for use!
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Anyone know a good site on Czech military units during the Cold War? RSR - do you know when changes in front sight and trigger guards took place or were they all in use at the same time (i.e. - both produced at the same time - obviously even if one was produced early they could still be in use at the same time....)
Off to look for chem suits ;)
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This is supposedly illustrated: http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Forces-Eastern-European-Countries/dp/B0013PSSKK
Some written descriptions: https://books.google.com/books?id=SGIwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=military+uniforms+in+europe+1900+-+2000+czechoslovakia&source=bl&ots=2uy655L9ML&sig=sApK9Ipoh1GtU-Pi_1eHEtgESCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMSxVOClOZKzyAScu4LgBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=military%20uniforms%20in%20europe%201900%20-%202000%20czechoslovakia&f=false
Uniforms Illustrated might have a Cold War book too... Worth searching.
This book has a lot of pics/illustrations of the VZ58 as well as some soldier kit/outfitting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-BOOK-ON-Vz58-RIFLE-/260872279525
It's in Czech but the last 1/3rd or so is all pics. And it's a CZUB authorized publication.
Best I can tell there were two generations of rifles. The first has the sight block w/ no lightening cuts and open trigger guard and rounded mag release. The 2nd has front sight blocks with lightening cuts, protected mag release trigger guard and scalloped mag release. More info here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63116.0
But changes look to be 2 fold -- 1) would be improvements and lightening and 2) is faster/more automated manufacturing. Don't know what if any changes have been made to parts manufacture now that CSA is making some new parts as well...
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Pictures are excellent in that link! Exactly the type of thing I am curious about... I may take a gander at that book. Just need to find a translator...
Appreciate the post, sir!
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Czech Salamander uniform for sale on gunbroker... Pricey at $450 but cool nonetheless:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462025739#PIC
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So... Do Czechpoint VZ's no longer have Czech made CHF barrels???
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These did, the Liberty line of rifles does not they have German barrels
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The 7.62 mil version I bought last fall had a walther barrell that met the 16 inch requirement. Also had a threaded muzzle... I guess this round has some of the last surplus barrels they have in stock....
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Latest are German Lothar Walther barrels. They are button rifled, so not cold hammer forged.
http://youtu.be/J16nVcXP_eA
About the new Czechpoint barrel maker:
Rifle Barrel Blanks
The production of barrel blanks at Lothar Walther is accomplished in state of the art facilities. Our rifle barrels are produced using button rifling. We were the first to use this method and it has been in use since 1925. Our materials are specifically engineered to be used in our process. Our Normal Steel, what every one calls "Chrome-Moly" is a special alloy which is very fine grained. It will perform in all situations and will generate phenomenal accuracy. Our Stainless Steel is of a very special type which will give longer barrel life and can be used in all contours. It far exceeds the capabilities of 416R. We manufacture calibers which range from 17 caliber to 600 caliber. Most calibers are stocked in both normal steel and our stainless steel. The charts below give our standard stock barrel blanks. Even with this large selection, there are still many types of barrels which are not shown. There are straight octagon barrels in some calibers. Black powder barrels are available. If you do not see what you are looking for, give us a call, we may have something special hidden away just for you.
http://www.lothar-walther.com/359.php
And here's the CHF process -- cheapest form of production at high volumes, most expensive at low volumes...:
http://youtu.be/aCMzyNHkjpk
http://youtu.be/8pzL5h2cl80
A good read on barrel types if interested: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm
Worth noting that while these 16" barrels are a great change from the NFA restricted 15" barrels (especially when considering that the permanent spot welding of muzzle devices may temper the 15" CHF barrels thereby negating CHF's strength advantage at the critical muzzle location), the CSA VZ58's premium price point doesn't necessarily lineup with their manufacturing decisions... So essentially the difference between CSA and Czechpoint barrels is now just chrome lining (Green Mountain barrels are button rifled as well)... And the two mag 922r compliance parts remains an abomination and needless risk to convey to their customers... Put in a CNC Warrior trigger (not that glass filled nylon bs) and a US Grip or Muzzle Device, and a CNC Warrior piston. And call it done.
And fwiw, CHF really only matters for full auto rifles when the barrel will be getting really hot regularly. CHF results in a slightly more dense barrel, absorbing more heat per same width/diameter/volume of material so it helps to avoid cookoffs of in chamber rounds, a problem for ARs in particular... [note: mass/weight does/will change -- a CHF should be heavier per unit of volume than a non-CHF barrel.] The denser material in a CHF barrel also hardens both the lands and grooves of the barrel, which is also especially important under high heat full auto fire as it results in less material removed with each shot... And the denser material, conceptually at least, should result in less width/diameter being removed with each shot, though probably an equivalent amount of molecules removed w/ each shot.
And here's a great read on why nitriding is superior to chrome: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186658
I agree with Mr Fuller.
Nitrided barrels are where it is at.
The barrels can be cut or button rifled to the correct twist and diameter, and then the metal gets case hardened, and nitrogen infused.
It results in a exceedingly strong barrel. It resists corrosion, doenst change internal diameter, withstands higher temperatures, and lowers the coefficient of friction against the bullet.
With all the new techniques in rifling, a radial land/groove, nitrided, faster twist AK barrel would be the cream of the crop.
Following on with what jim stated:
The differences in nitriding and chrome lining are vast. When a east block AK barrel is hammer forged, it does result in a more uniform grain structure. However, the bore is oversized in the CHF process, because when the chrome lining is applied, its builds onto the surface. (somewhere between .2-.6mm thick)
Also, when something is chromed, its a electro plating process. It never applies itself uniformly inside the bore. It deposits itself all over, and there will be high and low spots of more chrome/less chrome inside the bore. These hills/valleys are minor, but it is a factor.
ak barrels for example, are hard chromed for extreme wear situations. They're applied quite thick. This thicker application ends up amplifying surface defects even further, which requires additional finishing to try and smooth out. When machining these barrels shorter (like jim stated) the chrome lining has a tendency to chip.
But aside from that, it was a excellent idea to improve barrel life and corrosion resistance 50 years ago.
However, now a barrel can be cut or buttoned, with the exact internal bore diameter, and land-groove width. Then it can be nitrided, and the dimensions do not change. The land/groove width stays uniform from throat to muzzle, and the bore diameter doesnt change. The barrel is case hardened down, and nitrogen is rapidly absorbed and retained within the case layer. Nitrogen inhibits corrosion. This case layer is part of the steel, so when machined or super heated (full auto), it doesnt separate from the barrel, because IT IS the barrel.
Nitriding
doesnt "crack" under extreme heat
doesnt chip or flake
doesnt allow separation due to corrosion (oxidation under chrome, will lift the chrome off)
doesnt change any dimensions
Increases rockwell hardness
Drastically increases oxidation resistance
lowers friction inside the bore.
Whats not to like? Its a huge innovation to the firearms world.
Granted, its not "original" to the weapons platform, but its sure as !@## infinitely better, and much cheaper. I'll take performance over aesthetics anyday.
*Also, nitriding is cheaper and doesn't have all the environmental/pollution concerns as chrome either -- and on some of the thinner US "chrome" barrels, when nitrided the nitriding displaces the chrome in entirety.
^A-Plus. I could not have stated it better.^
Cut rifling is the most accurate process and provides the fine detail for corners, fillets, and rounds. The finished land and groove surfaces are the same density as the barrel material. Now; it is a slow process.
Button rifling is quick and fairly accurate. It is a burnishing operation moreso than a broaching operation and leaves a more dense "skin" for the lands and grooves. Now; it is hard to keep fine details as exacting corners, fillets, and rounds as the finished rifling is dependent on the plastic flow of steel.
Cold hammer-forging should produce lands and grooves that approach button rifling in regards to accuracy. Again; it is dependent on the plastic flow of metal. The advantage is the more dense "skin" at the lands, grooves, and chamber as well as the more dense "skin" on the exterior of the barrel. The parent metal is also a bit more dense as well.
Nitriding or Meloniting - whichever term you choose for this process is a great leap forward. The only requirement is that the steel must be of an alloy and minimum carbon content that responds to this treatment. It is essentially a low-temperature (1,100 Fahrenheit) case-hardening process that does not require a quench.
This process was perfected many decades ago but is fairly recent with its widespread application to barrels. I remember when we had to select a steel alloy that was "nitridable" for certain parts and had to use certain mill alloys that were formulated to respond.
I am impressed with its performance. The only caveat I see is that a barrel must have journals finished to size before one begins assembly as the skin is more than "file hard" and a few 0.001"s deep. It is certainly less "sticky" and interference-fit parts are easier to press on, and easier to clock.
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Thanks guys - so real factory CHF barrels for the VZ 58 in the hands of us Americans are a thing of the past on 'new guns'. I guess it makes our original ones a bit more collectable...
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This is supposedly illustrated: http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Forces-Eastern-European-Countries/dp/B0013PSSKK
Some written descriptions: https://books.google.com/books?id=SGIwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=military+uniforms+in+europe+1900+-+2000+czechoslovakia&source=bl&ots=2uy655L9ML&sig=sApK9Ipoh1GtU-Pi_1eHEtgESCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMSxVOClOZKzyAScu4LgBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=military%20uniforms%20in%20europe%201900%20-%202000%20czechoslovakia&f=false
Uniforms Illustrated might have a Cold War book too... Worth searching.
This book has a lot of pics/illustrations of the VZ58 as well as some soldier kit/outfitting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-BOOK-ON-Vz58-RIFLE-/260872279525
It's in Czech but the last 1/3rd or so is all pics. And it's a CZUB authorized publication.
Best I can tell there were two generations of rifles. The first has the sight block w/ no lightening cuts and open trigger guard and rounded mag release. The 2nd has front sight blocks with lightening cuts, protected mag release trigger guard and scalloped mag release. More info here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63116.0
But changes look to be 2 fold -- 1) would be improvements and lightening and 2) is faster/more automated manufacturing. Don't know what if any changes have been made to parts manufacture now that CSA is making some new parts as well...
Sportsmans guide has M60 and M85 field jackets in stock right now as well as some other interesting Czech surplus: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=czech
Free shipping through the end of the day today (just google the free shipping code on retailmenot or slickguns or elsewhere).
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Pretty easy to find Czech M60 Packs. I picked this one up for $30 shipped w/Leather 'Y' Harness.
(http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t489/Kmkknipp/Czech%20M60%20pack_zpss8ksdpzh.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/Kmkknipp/media/Czech%20M60%20pack_zpss8ksdpzh.jpg.html)
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Pretty easy to find Czech M60 Packs. I picked this one up for $30 shipped w/Leather 'Y' Harness.
While I love to collect militaria, and believe me I have invested the dollar equivalent of a small used car in some complete set ups, IMO the moldy oldy field packs, alice packs, and field equipment should be relegated to the museum for the most part. Since the USMC changed to the new packs over a year ago the previous Marpat full size packs and assault packs have dropped in price considerably as GOV liquidation has been auctioning them off by the pallet loads. Add a seal waterproof liner to a USMC pack or assault pack and you will never have the option for complaint, rest assured. Example: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9070948&tid=GLSPPT3545&cm_mmc=Email-_-ia13518%2Cia13519%2Cia21395-_-2015-02-12-_-13519_609&utm_campaign=gl%20-%20ia13518_%20ia13519%20_%20ia21395.html&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua (http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9070948&tid=GLSPPT3545&cm_mmc=Email-_-ia13518%2Cia13519%2Cia21395-_-2015-02-12-_-13519_609&utm_campaign=gl%20-%20ia13518_%20ia13519%20_%20ia21395.html&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua) Someone will buy these and dole them out for sale.
One other note: I have a box full of Czech flash lights. Most of them are ear marked to go with optic cables for the VZ59 (thats a 9), however there are extra some without without the optic cable connection. These are a bit primitive by todays LED standards and containing 2 D cells doesn't make them the lightest chicken in the coop, however these "My Day" lights offer interesting capabilities including signaling and IR. They can attach to your Czech field jacket. If anyone is interested in one to go with their VZ58 collection PM me. I posted about these a while back here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65242.msg441123#msg441123
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Someone was asking about Elite Czech Military Units, the only one I can think of is the 601. skss.
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Video of afghanistan here:
http://www.military.com/video/forces/special-forces/czech-601st-special-forces-in-afghanistan/1737916843001/
And recruitment video here (some VZ58 love in this one):
http://www.military.com/video/forces/special-forces/czech-special-forces-recruitment-video/644501189001/
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I'm betting that one ATF letter is killing pistol sales right now!
I had planned to build a second AR pistol. But no way I'm taking that chance until things get cleared up with the Sig Brace. My money will go into other things until that mess is all cleared up.
Would you please elaborate
What atf letter is that ?
As usual Mac does a great job explaining the current issues regarding the sig brace. Don't know what's so hard to understand it's sold as an "arm brace". Not shoulder brace/stock
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TYx3A80aBi0
It tells me the video is private and can't be viewed. I guess I'm not an insider ;D
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Perhaps it was upon legal advice that the video is no longer publicly available... Due to the BATF's switcheroos, a lot of folks probably unknowingly broke the law and don't have the unlimited resources or desire to litigate for years while losing their rights to own firearms until the case has been concluded in the interim...
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Getting back on the thread topic (strange thought for this forum, I realize), any folks here that may be considering building an SBR from a Chechpoint (CSA) 762 pistol may be (should be) interested in the superior ballistics of the 7.62x39 (M43) round in short barreled rifles.
...Here are potential untapped strengths of the 7.62x39. First, because of the relatively small powder volume versus bore size, relatively little performance is lost as barrel length is reduced. This makes the 7.62x39 a perfect candidate for very short carbines. For example, a load that replicates M43 using Accurate #1680 powder will lose only about 70 fps when barrel length is reduced from 16 inches to 14 inches. Going down to a 12-inch barrel only loses another 83 fps, while a 10.5 inch barrel will still fire the 123-grain bullet at just over 2100 fps. The 7.62x39 is an ideal cartridge for a short-barreled rifle, provided a bullet that produces good terminal ballistics is used.
Full article here: http://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=3 (http://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=3)
Related:
So far I am unimpressed with the sound deadening performance of my new Kestral AK suppressor on the CSA VZ58 11.9" carbine barrel. I have not tried it on a 16" VZ2008 or a VZ2000 yet, which should perform better. My VZ2000 "go-to" rifle, which is equipped with the original Czech chromed-lined barrel, has a Czech muzzle break pinned and welded on it due to Federal SBR laws. The plan is remove the Czech break and to have it replaced and welded with the CNC Warrior barrel extension in order to give me the freedom to swap muzzle attachments and suppressor at will and without violating federal law. Down side and concern of the barrel extension is the loss of the detent locking pin, which I have discovered the suppressor truly requires via empirical testing -- and I have read NOT to use a crush washer with a suppressor. The suppressor starts to unscrew itself off the barrel if you don't tighten it after a few shots. And before I go through pairs of insulated gloves I ordered a Manta cover for it. Any input on this issue would be appreciated.
I will also testing the Kestral on the VZ2008 with various commercially available rounds including Brown Bear soft point rounds (which I have hope for being decent) and the following non-commerical rounds:
I have recently acquired a half case of rounds with 220 grain lead nose bullets (yes, not a typo - 220 gr.) with a high burn rate powder load design specifically as a subsonic round. From my understanding this round should travel at just under 1000 FPS and thus not experience the crack from breaking the sound barrier -- the rest of the sound at the barrel end is going to be up to the suppressor. To the best of my knowledge the diameter of the bullet is still .310, but not completely certain of this without putting a caliper on it. As you might guess this ammunition is not priced the same as TulAmmo range plinking steel case, so I want to plan my testing accordingly.
Unfortunately with the bitter single digit cold temperatures here in Ohio, and the current state of the SBR (stripped down to the bone and still without stock) I have yet to experiment with the round in the 12" barrel. Hopes and expectations are high though.
If anyone else is experimenting with loading subsonic rounds and/or suppressing short VZ.58 barrels using 7.62x39 caliber, please contact me by PM as I would love to compare notes as I hopefully progress in the months ahead.
Back to off topic items, which are already in progress... :D
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Guns do sound louder in the cold.
I'd be curious to see you test the Hornady SST as well -- it's supposed to incorporate flash reduction components and is possibly faster burning as well. It's my primary defensive 7.62x39 selection...
While you mention it, JG Sales had the more rare brown bear lacquer soft points a few weeks ago and I snagged a case -- might still be there if folks are looking...
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This is supposedly illustrated: http://www.amazon.com/Uniforms-Forces-Eastern-European-Countries/dp/B0013PSSKK
Some written descriptions: https://books.google.com/books?id=SGIwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=military+uniforms+in+europe+1900+-+2000+czechoslovakia&source=bl&ots=2uy655L9ML&sig=sApK9Ipoh1GtU-Pi_1eHEtgESCA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TMSxVOClOZKzyAScu4LgBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=military%20uniforms%20in%20europe%201900%20-%202000%20czechoslovakia&f=false
Uniforms Illustrated might have a Cold War book too... Worth searching.
This book has a lot of pics/illustrations of the VZ58 as well as some soldier kit/outfitting: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-BOOK-ON-Vz58-RIFLE-/260872279525
It's in Czech but the last 1/3rd or so is all pics. And it's a CZUB authorized publication.
Best I can tell there were two generations of rifles. The first has the sight block w/ no lightening cuts and open trigger guard and rounded mag release. The 2nd has front sight blocks with lightening cuts, protected mag release trigger guard and scalloped mag release. More info here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63116.0
But changes look to be 2 fold -- 1) would be improvements and lightening and 2) is faster/more automated manufacturing. Don't know what if any changes have been made to parts manufacture now that CSA is making some new parts as well...
Sportsmans guide has M60 and M85 field jackets in stock right now as well as some other interesting Czech surplus: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist?k=czech
Free shipping through the end of the day today (just google the free shipping code on retailmenot or slickguns or elsewhere).
Got this package yesterday, and the Czech rain camo is pretty cool. It's sort of like a salamander camo pattern, although smaller behind the brown rain lines. The two colors are sort of a sage/foliage (think ACU) and olive (think more od green). Have several East German rain camo pouches I use for mag storage and they're just a one color for the background -- the background green is more of a light odg or perhaps a ranger green...