Author Topic: Recoil Buffers and Competition  (Read 15632 times)

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Offline timmy75

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2019, 01:48:51 AM »
what is the difference between thick and thin buffers?

Offline tdogg

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2019, 01:47:35 AM »
The thick buffers are about 1/8 inch.  The thin buffers are less maybe 3/32 inch?

I haven't tried the black plastic buffers.  The clear vinyl ones that come with the gun are what I've been using.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline timmy75

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2019, 03:42:07 AM »
ok thanks.
is there any difference in felt recoil, extraction etc?

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2019, 09:31:46 AM »
One acquaintance, a fellow named Larry Brown, is a very accomplished shooter -- his credentials include:
  • Tier 1 trainer @ Ft. Bragg working with Special Ops troops
  • FBI HRT shooting instructor
  • instructor/contractor at Blackwater
  • IPSC Grand Master
  • Olympic team shooter
  • Firearms OEM R&D engineer
  • Ttrainer to Chris Tilley (World Class Shooter), who speaks highly of his skills as a shooter
Larry sometimes used buffers, but it had nothing to do with reducing felt recoil.  He spoke of using buffers in some guns and situations, paired with a lightened (maybe shortened) recoil spring/assembly, to increase slide cycling speed.

When you shoot with his skill level -- I've shot in a couple of IDPA matches with him and he did his first IDPA Qualifier with our IDPA club  -- that extra slide speed added to the rest of what he brings to a match (intelligence, reflexes and exceptional physical skills) seems to help and certainly doesn't hurt.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 05:42:22 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline 2morechains

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2019, 08:52:51 PM »
ok thanks.
is there any difference in felt recoil, extraction etc?

I ran a series of comparison bill drills with and without buffer installed.  Everything else was the same (ammo, recoil spring, etc). 

To be honest, I found no discernible difference if the buffer was installed or not with regards to felt recoil, accuracy, extraction, etc.  If there was any advantage without I would have removed the buffer.  But after 7K-ish rnds on the original buffer the thing looks brand new.  I’m keeping it in there to see how long it will last purely out of curiosity since it doesn’t affect function.   

This is the first gun I’ve run a buffer in.  All my other guns I never had a good experience with buffers -they either disintegrate after 500 rnds or they affect the function of the slide release.

Offline pcar157

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2019, 02:14:34 PM »
Where can the clear (think they are silicone) shock buffers be purchased?

Offline George16

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2019, 03:46:45 PM »
Where can the clear (think they are silicone) shock buffers be purchased?

Check out CZ-USA.

Offline dbarn

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2020, 11:58:47 AM »
Found some recent buffs from CZ  that are black vs. clear. Someone posted that they have recently purchased a Shadow 2 and it actually came with both.

Anyone know the difference between the two? Either longevity or different recoil impulse? Also seeing the black does not come with the extra lip that the thick clear ones have.

Offline tdogg

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2020, 05:29:49 PM »
I just ordered some black buffers from CZ USA among other items.  I can post up pictures when they arrive.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline tdogg

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2020, 04:27:30 PM »
Recieved the buffers.   They are still rubber but they are a higher durometer than the clear vinyl buffers. They should last longer.   I haven't shot the gun yet to see if any percieved recoil/impulse difference.

They have a ring on only one side of the ID guide rod hole that may be a different material.   It's hard to tell but it may be slightly harder than the outside material.





Cheers
Toby

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Offline tdogg

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2020, 06:53:06 PM »
I stand corrected.   I ran the black buffer at  my or local match today.  I don't think it will last.   It is already showing signs of wear after one match.   I'd stick with the vinyl buffers.

Cheers,
Toby

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Offline dbarn

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2020, 08:39:59 AM »
I stand corrected.   I ran the black buffer at  my or local match today.  I don't think it will last.   It is already showing signs of wear after one match.   I'd stick with the vinyl buffers.

Cheers,
Toby

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I agree the vinyl buffers appear to last longer. However the black versions appear to wear to a point and stop. Getting a little ragged around the lower corners. But, I like the recoil impulse of the black ones better. Also I really like this particular guide rod with buffers and 11lb recoil spring. It was stock in my SP-01 Shadow Orange and is the only guide rod I've found that fit's flush with the hole.

https://www.ipscstore.com/en/sport-guns-et-parts/8358-eemann-tech-guide-rod-for-cz-75-sp-01-shadow-new-design.html?search_query=Guide+Rod&results=416

Offline tdogg

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2020, 02:41:49 PM »
I can't tell a difference/haven't noticed a difference between the Black and Vinyl.  I am running an unofficial test with one black and one vinyl in my TSO's.  I don't shoot them both an equal amount so it will take some time to compare.  I plan on noting the round count when I choose to replace them to see which lasts longer.  It may be moot test as we may only have the black version going forward available from CZ.

Cheers,
Toby




Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2020, 09:57:48 PM »
Has anyone asked CZ Custom (the folks who designed some of the competition-type guns) WHY they built these guns with buffers?  An answer to that question might be all we need to know.   Someone might also ask Cajun Gun Works why they recommend removing them from all CZs.

As I noted earlier, I understand why some competitors use them, but  one I know uses buffers in addition to other modifications to the guns to speed cycling speed.  If it cycles faster you can pull the trigger faster -- but I don't shoot at their level and wouldn't know what to do with that extra speed. 

But as for felt recoil or muzzle flip, I am less sure that buffers or other recoil reduction systems have that much to offer.  But I admit I'm no expert on the topic.

I've tried buffers in a number of different guns and all I learned was that they can deteriorate pretty rapidly and if you don't check them every time you shoot, you might end up with a gun that's not cycling right, because pieces of buffer get into the recoil spring and guide and gums things up. 

From a pure physics perspective, I don't really understand  how a thicker or thinner buffer can greatly affect the amount of muzzle flip -- particularly if you're shooting the same ammo and the slide is still traveling essentially the same distance.  (Momentum might be different, but I'm not savvy enough in  physics  to understand how that difference might affect muzzle flip.
 
The following is extracted from a reply on the Brian Enos forum, addressing recoil reduction, etc."   He mentions Bruce Gray, who is one of the real GURUs of competitive shooters.  He was a top shooter in his day, and he now one of the top gunsmiths in the country.  If you've owned a Gray Gun you have owned a very unique SIG or H&K.   I don't know who posted this reply.  The topic is about devices used to reduce barrel flip or felt recoil, but it was part of a longer discussion.  I saved that segment but not the full discussion.
    Go on SIGforum and search for "Sprinco". You'll find posts by Grayguns, who is Bruce Gray, a custom gunsmith who works on just about everything and builds custom 1911s. Any real technical anecdotes I might have would only be regurgitated from him.

    The entire basis of these products fails the test of basic physics. Barring any manipulation of the escaping gases, the only way to reduce recoil is to reduce the powder charge in the ammunition. Other than that it's just mass times acceleration, dampened (not sure if that's the right word) in a certain way by the recoil spring system. If you want a "softer" shooting gun, with the recoil impulse spread out over a longer period of time, shoot heavier bullets. This is a similar effect to what these systems do but won't redistribute the recoil forces in places the gun wasn't designed to have them. I meant takedown levers - specific to the SIG platform - not slide stops, my bad for not clarifying.

    Outside of that, the way to pursue less muzzle flip and faster follow up shots is through technique. The way to pursue technique is through practice. So save the money on this snake oil nonsense and buy more ammo, go to the range, and learn something about how your gun recoils.
Others here may offer a different perspective or have a better understanding of the physics involved than I do.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Note:  I tried a Sprinco Recoil Reducer once, about 15 years ago and couldn't notice a difference in performance -- it did seem to shoot a bit more softly -- but, hey!  It's a 9mm, and with the great CZ ergonomics, that extra softness may have been my imagination.  I still have that unit tucked away in a small CZ parts bin. and pulled it out tonight to look at it again, and read the technical info that came with it.   Sprinco is still in business...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 09:21:32 AM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline dbarn

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Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2020, 09:06:51 AM »
I'm no expert either but have done a lot of rapid-fire shooting both with and without the buffers. I like using metal guide rods, but with buffers as has been coming on the Shadow 2 pistols and Shadow Orange versions directly from the CZ factory as manufactured.

What I'm seeing is an improvement (ever so slight but there) in how the pistol prints on double taps and rapid-fire shots. Not to take anything away from technique but rather to complement it. Without technique you have nothing.

The pistol definitely feels different in recoil with buffers. Is it smoother or better? That's probably going to depend on how each shooter perceives recoil, but it's definitely different as opposed to metal on metal. Also, it may or may not help with the longevity of the slide stop which would be a good thing. Each person will have to evaluate if buffers are right for them, but it does make you wonder why CZ is now shipping pistols with them. YMMV

 

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