Author Topic: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75  (Read 3343 times)

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Offline CrazyDave

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 04:51:39 AM »
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 

Also, NO CZ manual safety can be engaged with the hammer in the half cock or hammer down position.  If it does, you need to call CZ USA and talk to them - your gun is broke.

The SAFEtY FEATURE we are talking about is the length of DA pull and weight of the trigger pull from either a fully or partially decocked position. Hammer that is at half/quarter cock is STILL in DA mode and is harder to inadvertently engage to fire the weapon.
I have a perfectly fine CZ 75 compact that the safety works at 1/4 cock, it is a foot from me.  Are you suggesting there is something wrong with it? I am new to CZ and only have a decocker model and this.  Sorry for my ignorance.

YES -- UNLESS you have had the hammer replaced with something like the CGW Race Hammer or Competition Hammer.  Even still one should NOT engage the safety unless the hammer is fully cocked.

This feature from most stock CZ duty/SD guns is so when carrying in DA first shot, the gun will go bang as expected by merely yanking the trigger -- no safety to disengage.  As others hame mentioned, Caniks and others are designed out of the gate with the ability to engage the hammer regardless of SA or DA (not my preference for a SD gun carried with hammer down or at partial cock).

So, has your piece been worked on?

Thanks, there has been no work done to it, it was purchased a few weeks ago NIB.   It seemingly has no other problems, runs great.  I will look into this anomaly more.

Offline Metal Wonder Nine Guy

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2019, 09:25:36 PM »
Was at the range today and they had a 75B in their rental case. Put the hammer into half cock mode and the safety would not go on.

Offline CrazyDave

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 12:24:08 AM »
Was at the range today and they had a 75B in their rental case. Put the hammer into half cock mode and the safety would not go on.

To clear the air, I called CZ and they seem helpful, knowledgeable, and honest.   The folks here are right. No 75 series CZ should go into safety at less than full cock.  It is not a safety concern according to CZ, other than wearing of trigger parts if you try to fire your gun with the safety on.  Quarter cocked CZ with a safety and most D/A pull?!  I don't pull the trigger witht he safety on anyhow.  I wish they could send a new Shadow 2 with the same defect.  ;D

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 09:22:42 AM »
I have had a number of CZs over the years -- from several Compacts (capital C, with safety), a 97B, and various pre-Bs and B model full-size guns, and none of them had a safety that worked on the "half-cock" notch.  (My oldest pre-B didn't have a half-cock/safety notch.) 

We were all told, back in the day (a number of years ago when I was a moderator on this forum),  via discussions with CZ, that the safety should only work when the hammer is fully cocked.   

I have no personal knowledge of the Omega model, but assume that CZ kept that same function with the new system, too.

Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 09:44:17 AM »
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

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Offline CZJ

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 10:17:25 AM »
I believe that is what the FPB is for, so this doesn't happen.

Offline cntrydawwwg

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Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2019, 12:07:03 PM »
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

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On a non FP block pistol I agree, although they are still not considered drop safe. In “theory” you could hit the hammer hard enough to shear off the half cock notch, causing the hammer to still hit the FP.

    On a pistol with a FP block, the FP will not engage without pulling the trigger. So releasing the trigger before fully lowering the hammer will allow the block to reset.  That’s why pistols with the FP block are drop safe.
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Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2019, 12:27:51 PM »
However, if trigger is held while lowering the hammer, wont the fpb be lifted and fp allowed to go fwd of the fpb? If hammer is not then pulled back to half cock, fpb cannot reset and drop-fire is possible, no? I'm of the opinion that half cock is the better choice even on the b series guns with fpb.

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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2019, 12:30:50 PM »
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

You're NOT mistaken about the hammer resting against the firing pin when the hammer is down, but we're talking about a "B" series CZ in this discussion and you've ignored the firing pin safety, which is present in all hammer-fired CZs except the "Pre-B" models (and the 85 Combat).

You also seem to suggest that the CZ's half-cock notch makes the gun drop safe (or can prevent an accidental discharge from an external hammer blow), but there is no evidence that it does so or that it was ever intended to do so. 

Here's what the oldest CZ "B" model manual I have (dated 2001) says about the safety notch function:
  • Safety Stop on the Hammer - A half-cock safety notch is on the hammer so as to prevent it from striking the firing pin when the manner is manually cocked, and a thumb could slip. When the hammer is on the safety stop, it is not leaning against the firing pin stop, but it's position is further back.
CZ's later addition of a firing pin block/safety suggests that the "safety notch" of the "B" models does NOT prevent drop or blow-related issues.   
  • Most hammer-fired semi-autos that don't have a firing pin block/safety -- nearly all of which have "inertial" firing pins -- are NOT drop safe. The safety notch does not make a 70-series 1911 drop- or external blow-safe, and there's no reason to assume it would do so with a pre-B or 85 Combat, either. 
If the gun is dropped or the hammer is slammed by an external force, the CZ half-cock on a CZ "B" model notch MIGHT prevent an accidental discharge, depending on the height of the drop or the force of the blow but the firing pin block on all "B" models would certainly do so.
.

Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2019, 12:39:50 PM »
Not looking to start a fight, as I think we are all largely in agreement. I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.  Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used to ensure the user relieves the fp enough to reset the fpb.

I need to go check an actual slide to see if the fpb will drop all the way down when the head of the fp is flush with the back of the slide. It may be that the inertial aspect of the fp is such that the fpb intercepts the fp only when it attempts to travel farther forward than where the head goes subzflush to the slide.

As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position

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« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:49:05 PM by CzechnoWizard »

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2019, 01:27:57 PM »
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
However, if trigger is held while lowering the hammer, wont the fpb be lifted and fp allowed to go fwd of the fpb? If hammer is not then pulled back to half cock, fpb cannot reset and drop-fire is possible, no? I'm of the opinion that half cock is the better choice even on the b series guns with fpb.

The firing pin block resets as soon as your release the trigger, and lowering the hammer doesn't moving the firing pin enough to keep the firing pin safety deactivated until the hammer hits the firing pin with great force -- which is a natural consequence of the trigger being pulled when the gun is fired.

NOTE:  just because the firing pin has moved a LITTLE forward when the hammer is down doesn't mean it has cause the firing pin safety to be disengaged.  That only happens when the trigger is fully to the rear.  The firing pin has to be moved forward a good little distance before the firing pin block mechanism no longer blocks FULL firing pin movement.

If you're really uncomfortable with the process, or don't understand how it works, you can decock in two steps:
  • Lower the hammer to the half-cock/safety notch, releasing the trigger as soon as you can.  If you release the trigger too soon the hammer won't move and you'll have to press it again; as soon as the hammer can move  you can let up on the trigger. The firing pin block is still in effect as soon as you release the trigger.  And it will remain in effect until the firing pin has gone farther forward than is possible unless the firing pin has depressed the firing pin spring... which will not happen unless a great deal of force is applied.

  • Press the trigger again as you take the hammer from the half-cock notch to fully down and as soon as the hammer moves, release the trigger again. 
If your thumb slips during step 1 as you're dropping the hammer to the half-cock notch, the safety notch will catch it.  And if you've released the trigger after the hammer has begun to move, the FPB is still in effect.

If your thumb slips during step 2 after you've moved PAST the half-cock notch, and you've kept the trigger pulled fully to the rear, there won't be enough force from the hammer spring to move the firing pin far enough (i.e., with enough force) to jump the gap or  to ignite a primer.

That's also true if you do it in ONE STEP, not TWO. The key is simply releasing the trigger as soon as the hammer starts to move.

You're NOT likely to have a DROP or HAMMER STRIKE BLOW-induced problem while the gun is still in your hand, unless you've kept the trigger pressed fully to the rear, the firing pin block is still functioning.   

The safety notch on the hammer does NOT provide the best drop or external blow protection.  It's not even presented as a safety feature for that problem.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:41:18 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline Ruber

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Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2019, 01:37:01 PM »
I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.
Not on my b-series guns.  Of course there is tolerance stacking, variation, custom mods, etc., but on my factory b-series guns the rear of the firing pin needs to be below flush in order to get past the fpb.

Quote
Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used

It does in mine.  Again, ymmv, but if the hammer is dropped with enough force with the trigger pulled back all the way such that the firing pin passes the block but does not ignite the primer AND the trigger is quickly released while the firing pin is forward such that the fpb comes up against the firing pin, the firing pin will come back on its own to reengage the fpb with the hammer down.

Again, using a factory setup with fresh factory springs on clean guns, so ymmv....

Offline cntrydawwwg

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Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2019, 01:54:49 PM »
CzezhnoWizard, I think I understand where you’re coming from now. The way you describe it, the shooter is keeping the trigger pulled until fully lowering hammer.... thereby pushing the FP past the block.
 “I.E. holding trigger the entire time”

    That is the issue.
   As soon as the shooter starts to move the hammer, the trigger should be immediately released, keeping the FP block in play. Lower to half cock, pull trigger again while lowering hammer, release trigger as soon as hammer starts to move, lower hammer rest of way. This sequence will keep the block in play the entire time.

   Oh, and I don’t think anyone is trying to start a fight, just having a difference of opinions
     
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:03:14 PM by cntrydawwwg »
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Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2019, 03:03:26 PM »
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

If safety redundancy is important, you might consider a Tanfoglio version of the CZ pattern, which also has a hammer safety giving you 3 safety features!  I think you've changed your argument a bit, and maybe now understand how the  CZ firing pin block mechanism works. 

That said, I will continue to argue that there's no reason to believe that the safety notch on the hammer has any meaningful role to play in drop or external-blow safety -- it wasn't designed for that role and none of the gun makers using that feature ever advance that as a (drop/blow) safety feature.

Quote from: CzechnoWizard
I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position.

I only own ONE decocker-equipped gun (a Sphinx SDP), but have owned a bunch of SIGs over time.  I have never experienced (nor observed) a problem when manually decocking a gun.  My reason for starting from the half-cock notch would be because that's the only practical way my decocker-fired (which is a variant of the CZ pattern) gun works -- so doing so has nothing to do with concern about the firing pin block failing. 

I'm very comfortable manually decocking a DA/SA gun and I just don't like different first and second trigger pulls.  I feel that cocked & locked start is far better than starting from the decocked half-cock safety notch on a CZ. A lot of DA/SA guns don't start from a hammer's safety notch, but  all of them have different first and second trigger pulls.  Nearly all of them have firing pin safeties.

As I've noted before, everybody says that the issue of the different first and second trigger pulls with DA/SA guns can easily be mastered with a bit of practice.  I know that it can be mastered, but I don't think it's an easy or quick mastery.  I also suspect that far fewer shooters master the DA/SA transition than they claim. 

Back when I was very active in IDPA, I was the one who designed our local IDPA match courses of fire and also helped (as a SAFETY OFFICER) with scoring.  Small 2 shot groups on first strings were not something I saw a lot.  It's not something I see a lot at the indoor range where I shoot most often.  When I was shooting my CZs or a Browning Hi-Power in an IDPA match, I just chose to shoot "Enhanced Service Pistol" which let me start from cocked & locked.  Most of the time, that's how I now carry (when I'm not carrying a striker-fired gun); truth be known, however, I now own, use, and carry more striker-fired guns than hammer-fired guns.

I think its far easier to master safe manual decocking than mastering the DA/SA transition.  :)

Offline CzechnoWizard

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2019, 05:05:47 PM »
I still think we are all in basic agreement. The op was a question about whether to make use of the half cock or not. I think it has a benefit.

I get Dawgs point but I see few shooters with the discipline to release trigger and let the fpb engage WHILE they are lowering the hammer.  This I why I worry about what happens after they decock while holding trigger thru the entire process.

I also agree that the best 2 shot groups from a cold draw generally come from cocked and locked with 2 sa pulls. This is the 1911's home turf and I own a few for that reason. However, I cut my teeth on strikers and elected to never carry anything in a condition that requires I remember to deactivate a safety under stress.  Therefore, I prefer the decocker vs safety for a cz carry gun and I think the OP was intending to carry 1st shot DA. I see no drawbacks to utilizing the safety notch. I personally do see benefit to using it but we don't all share the same point of view on that.

Both DA/SA transition and 1911 (or cz) safety manipulation require practice to master and become ingrained. I do put in substantial range time on both techniques but for carry I always revert to the mode of a da 1st shot and no safety,  either a decocker cz or a striker.  Other than when I'm running a 1911 for fun, I choose to make my range and competition time representative of actual carry conditions, so I use the decocker and holster with the hammer off the FP. 

Apologies to OP for taking the thread so far afield but I sense many of us enjoy the debate.


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