Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75

[briang2ad]

For the sake of folks reading who are not as familiar I will post. 

There is no NEED to decock any gun one handed, and ESPECIALLY if it has no decocker.  If it has no decocker, there IS a NEED to use the non shooting hand.  You decock to HOLSTER or place on the nightstand.  No reason not to use the off hand.  Even with my P07s I use the off-hand because you can keep your firing hand perfectly secure on the gun and ready to engage with it and NOT shift anything on the hand position. Reviewers who go on about having the decocker right 'there'  as a sort of necessity don't get this.  Decocking is part of something else - and using the off hand is good for this.  Holstering SHOULD use your off hand also.  That's why I also like the button on TOP of the slide on the P99.

Just put about 300 rounds through my PreBs today and 1/3 - 1/2 in DA - all decocked with the off hand thumb blocking.  Its now a reflex.  These guns shoot DA SO WELL - easy to group.

[Ruber]

My two cents, cause these really are personal opinions even if guided by experience:

I really think anyone who intends to have a gun decocked (for whatever personal or professional reason) should practice manual decocking with one hand.

I?ve seen so many people that have done tactical training or competitive sports get into the real world and find themselves with a loaded & cocked gun with only one hand available.

Ya, shouldn?t ever need to decock manually with one hand.  This is one of the reasons I don?t like seeing safety guns carried decocked whether for equipment or regulation reasons. Personally, my gear is all setup around cocked and locked carry.

[Metal Wonder Nine Guy]

All of this just blows my mind. 

Competition, rules, and all that aside:  if you handle a pistol with an external hammer, you should be able to decock that pistol with one hand.  (Trigger finger on the trigger; and thumb from the same hand on the hammer.) 

I'm not that old, and this was considered a BASIC skill for handling a handgun as recently as 20 years ago.  It's just another learned skill/behavior.  If you practice this, it is more natural/normal than using a decocking lever. 

What does a decocking lever do for you?  It puts an external hammer down on a loaded chamber with no external safety.  It does nothing for you that you cannot do for yourself. 

   

Not to nitpick here and Hopefully I'm not throwing gas on the fire but I did want to mention that most DA autoloaders with decockers usually drop the hammer to half cock position. This includes pistols like the CZ-75 BD, Sig P200 series, Smith and Wesson 59 and 39 series, Walther PP etc.

The only time I've seen a DA autoloader bypass the half cock notch  and seat the hammer fully on the rear of the slide is the Beretta 92 series. But that's  because the firing pin is in 2 sections and when the safety lever is rotated, part of the firing pin is rotated downwards.

https://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost.php?p=923298&postcount=11

[ohiodff]

Not looking to start a fight, as I think we are all largely in agreement. I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.  Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used to ensure the user relieves the fp enough to reset the fpb.

I need to go check an actual slide to see if the fpb will drop all the way down when the head of the fp is flush with the back of the slide. It may be that the inertial aspect of the fp is such that the fpb intercepts the fp only when it attempts to travel farther forward than where the head goes subzflush to the slide.

As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Sounds like you are illustrating the same concerns I had.  What I didn't realize until I had it in my hand is that on a 75B there is significant clearance from when the hammer passes the "1/2 cock" notch to full-down - much more than on a P-07.  Once you clear the notch you can release the trigger and lower the hammer the rest of the way with the FPB engaged.  I'm from the 1980's school of "never drop a hammer on a hot round" so see no reason to take that risk, but I have a lot less trepidation about it than I did now that I have seen just how much clearance there is.  Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

I got a reaction similar to yours from the "it's fine" crowd about being "able to do it".  I agree the issue has nothing to do with competency of what's in actuality a trivial action, I just can't for the life of me understand the bravado behind the thought process.  If there's a .1% chance of something catastrophic going wrong vs. a 0% chance, give me the 0% all day long when there's nothing to gain by taking the .1% chance.  If I ever "have to" make a weapon safe I'm going to use the safety, the decocker, or remove the round from the chamber.   I'm not going to put my finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon I don't intend to fire.

[briang2ad]

Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

Here is why:

The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple. 

Yes, I have picked up a few recently that are useable OTB.  With 2000 rounds, they'd likely be pretty good.  But to get them to feel like any OTB SP 2022 or CZ 75B you can work on, it is hard.  Disassembling the 75 system gets HARD with the decocking assembly.  Many of these guns OTB are pretty bad.  CZUB trigger execution is not that good.

ALSO - the 75 series decockers are in an awkward position for many compared to the P series.  I like to have my hands all over the gun which is easier on a CZ, but the 75 Decocker gets in the way of the off-hand thumb. 

Yes, I carry a P07. But the Omega is much easier to work on.

BUT, nothing like my CZ 75 transitional DA - which is as smooth as a SIG SP 2022, but SHORT like only a 75 series is from the decocked position. 

[Walt Sherrill]

I got a reaction similar to yours from the "it's fine" crowd about being "able to do it".  I agree the issue has nothing to do with competency of what's in actuality a trivial action, I just can't for the life of me understand the bravado behind the thought process.  If there's a .1% chance of something catastrophic going wrong vs. a 0% chance, give me the 0% all day long when there's nothing to gain by taking the .1% chance.  If I ever "have to" make a weapon safe I'm going to use the safety, the decocker, or remove the round from the chamber.   I'm not going to put my finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon I don't intend to fire.

I agree with you that if you NEED to make a gun safe, you can use the safety, use the decocker, or remove the magazine and round from the chamber.  (I only have one decocker-equipped weapon, but it is decocked when it's put down or holstered.)

You're concerned about the difference between  a .1% chance of an accident than a 0% chance, but that is -- for people debating relative safety -- a bit like medieval clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.  I've seen MANY MORE (unintended) unaimed discharges at a range that are potentially dangerous when people practice live-round presentations from the holster than .1% of the first shots fired otherwise. 

And that said, why must we automatically assume that a slip while decocking will be catastrophic?  If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it won't be catastrophic.  It might just be embarrassing.

In this type of discussion, attention is always paid to the possibility of the hammer slipping from the shooter's grasp as it is lowered, and but almost no attention is paid to where the muzzle is pointed. As long as you have a gun with a loaded chamber pointed in a safe direction as you manually decoc -- perhaps with the muzzle  pointed toward the ground away from your feet -- even that worrisome .1% becomes irrelevant.  If your hand somehow slips and you discharge a round, the only thing at risk is your ego -- and there's a good chance that the hammer will hit the safety notch on most guns, and not discharge!  More importantly, if after the hammer has started to move, and you release the trigger, the firing pin safety may be reengaged. (If the hammer doesn't continue to drop easily, you just gently press the trigger again to lower the hammer a bit farther, and then release the trigger. as it continues on down.)

There may be a few cases where you might HAVE to go to fully hammer down on  a loaded chamber.  Shooting in IDPA Stock Service Pistol or USPSA Production with a non-decocker CZ or Witness is one example:  in either gun game you must start with the hammer fully hammer down.   

This is true even though a decocker-equipped CZ lowers the hammer to the safety notch on the hammer -- a half-cock position like in 1911s --  neither of those organizations -- which are intensely focused on gun safety -- will let you, if you're using a safety-equipped CZ, Witness, or one of the Turkish knock-offs of the CZ design  can be legally manually lower ed to that same half-cock position when starting a string in a match. 

If you can safely manually lower the hammer all the way, it seems logical that you can also safely lower the hammer to the safety notch.  I don't understand their reasoning, but I always do as required.  Never had a negligent discharge, either.   

I've noticed, too, that nobody ever voices concern about drawing from the holster and firing at a target at a range.  We all need to practice this skill if we're concerned about using our weapon in self-defense.  Having shot at local indoor ranges for many years and having been a safety officer at many IDPA matches for a number of years, I've seen many more misplaced first shots than NDs while decocking;  in fact, I don't think I've ever witnessed a negligent discharge while a gun was being decocked, either in matches or elsewhere.  People who decock manually -- and not many do -- are generally pretty careful.

It seems that most of the folks who are concerned about accidents while decocking have never owned a non-decocker weapon.  And they've never had a desired to become comfortable with what is a relatively simple process.  The idea of a POSSIBLE accident totally colors their attitudes and behavior.  That's okay.  But their attitudes don't have to control everyone else's attitudes. and behaviors.  They don't want to manually decock, they don't have to.  But just because they think it's unsafe doesn't make it unsafe. 

Then too, as I've noted in these types of discussions before, if you shoot at an indoor range, pay attention to all of the holes in the ceiling, or marks in the floor or on the wall... hardly any of those shots intentionally hit where they were intended.  And those potentially dangers discharges are seldom mentioned.

[briang2ad]

Walt: ALL good points.

And BTW, with a B model once your finger is OFF the trigger in the decocking sequence the gun CANNOT fire, unless there is a mechanical problem with the pistol. 

[Walt Sherrill]

And BTW, with a B model once your finger is OFF the trigger in the decocking sequence the gun CANNOT fire, unless there is a mechanical problem with the pistol.

True, but there's a sweet spot where, if you release the trigger, the hammer doesn't want to go on down, so you sometimes find yourself hunting for the sweet spot.  After a while you just let the hammer go farther before your release the trigger, and if it slips before that point, it should STILL hit the safety notch.  If you release AFTER that point, is shouldn't have enough momentum to make the firing pin overcome the firing pin spring (which resists the firing pin's movement.) 

Earlier you wrote:

The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple.

Harder to attain, if you're doing it yourself, but folks like CGW or CZ Custom do it pretty effectively. 

As I understand it, the only real difference between the trigger function of the decocker and non-decocker models is that the decocker models have one rather than two hammer hooks. (That hammer hook was removed to make space for the decocker mechanism.) 

I'm not an expert on this subject -- and someone more knowledgeable is welcome to correct me on this point -- but I don't think the decocker mechanism has much effect on trigger function,  But in keeping with your point above, working on a decocker model is apparently a bit more complicated.

When decocker models were first introduced, most gunsmiths just wouldn't work on them.  And I remember discussions here on the forum about people doing it themselves and really raising a stink about the extra effort it took.  I've never detail-stripped a decocker CZ, and have no interest in doing so.   The used P-07 I picked up some time ago came to me without the decocker parts, so I've never had a chance to investigate the Omega version, either. The fact that users can change to or from decocker suggests its a lot easier.

[briang2ad]

Walt:

When I decock I use the off-hand thumb - eliminates 'slippage' problems. 

The decocker doesn't make the trigger worse per se.  Its just MUCH harder detail strip and reassemble.  A 75 safety gun is almost trivial.  I helped a friend with a SP01 tactical and it was not good- it eventually went to a smith. I could have eventually got it. but it was not fun.  Even a PreB safety is peanuts in comparison. 

The Omega is VERY simple other than the decocker spring - but with a eyeglass tool, even this gets easy and the whole thing is again trivial against the 75 series.

This makes maintenance (like replacing trigger springs) MUCH easier, and on 75 system that has not been polished is a shame.

Pick up a SIG, Beretta, HK.  Generally they are an order of magnitude smoother OTB.  My two SP 2022s had NO grit or stacking and I bought them sight unseen.  They were like glass OTB.  There is no excuse for the 75 series to still have the grit it does OTB - which gets back to ease of working on them.

I prefer to do my own and not spend the $50 in shipping one way.

[ohiodff]

I agree with you that if you NEED to make a gun safe, you can use the safety, use the decocker, or remove the magazine and round from the chamber.  (I only have one decocker-equipped weapon, but it is decocked when it's put down or holstered.)

You're concerned about the difference between  a .1% chance of an accident than a 0% chance, but that is -- for people debating relative safety -- a bit like medieval clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.  I've seen MANY MORE (unintended) unaimed discharges at a range that are potentially dangerous when people practice live-round presentations from the holster than .1% of the first shots fired otherwise. 

And that said, why must we automatically assume that a slip while decocking will be catastrophic?  If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it won't be catastrophic.  It might just be embarrassing.

The .1% chance isn't really my main point - it's the fact that I (and others, apparently) have the preference not to take that .1% chance and are spoken down to as a result.  Why can't people just respect that?  briang2ad illustrated a good reason for himself to do it - fine, he's entitled to that.  I won't be telling him how elementary or basic the options are.

[ohiodff]

Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

Here is why:

The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple. 

Yes, I have picked up a few recently that are useable OTB.  With 2000 rounds, they'd likely be pretty good.  But to get them to feel like any OTB SP 2022 or CZ 75B you can work on, it is hard.  Disassembling the 75 system gets HARD with the decocking assembly.  Many of these guns OTB are pretty bad.  CZUB trigger execution is not that good.

ALSO - the 75 series decockers are in an awkward position for many compared to the P series.  I like to have my hands all over the gun which is easier on a CZ, but the 75 Decocker gets in the way of the off-hand thumb. 

Yes, I carry a P07. But the Omega is much easier to work on.

BUT, nothing like my CZ 75 transitional DA - which is as smooth as a SIG SP 2022, but SHORT like only a 75 series is from the decocked position.

Cool.  Just so I'm following, you're saying you specifically prefer the 75 DA trigger and don't want the decocker because those guns are harder to work on?  Being newer to CZ ownership I haven't done much beyond basic field-stripping so don't have any reference.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

So another debate on manually decocking a loaded pistol.This debate will rage on for eons. I do it/have done it and will continue to do so. Those who won't I respect that.
So in the case of most DA/SA revolvers if you are precision shooting by drawing the hammer back for SA and decide to suspend firing or must suspend firing the hammer must be lowered manually and there is a very safe technique for the process.
Manually decocking the revolver is the only option here if firing the round is not possible because it is not possible to open the cylinder on these guns and unload them with the hammer cocked back.

[Walt Sherrill]

The .1% chance isn't really my main point - it's the fact that I (and others, apparently) have the preference not to take that .1% chance and are spoken down to as a result.  Why can't people just respect that?  briang2ad illustrated a good reason for himself to do it - fine, he's entitled to that.  I won't be telling him how elementary or basic the options are.

I can respect folks who don't want to decock manually.  There are a lot of such folks out there, and gun makers sell a lot of decocker-equipped guns.  But I think that for many of them the decision is more based on fear than a true understanding of the problem they are trying to avoid.  I would argue that manual decocking doesn't really present even a .1% chance of a problem if you follow the same gun handling rules you follow any other time.  Some of these same folks also tell me that the DA/SA transition (i.e., different first and second trigger pulls) -- which is always an issue with a decocker equipped weapon -- is a problem that can be easily overcome with training.  I think many more of these folks talk a good training talk than actually walk a good training walk.

A dangerous negligent discharge can only occur while manually decocking a handgun if you have already failed to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction!  If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction when it is negligently discharged, it may be embarrassing for the shooter, but it won't be dangerous to anyone.  To argue that manually decocking a handgun might even be catastrophically dangerous involves the same sort of "talking-down" to folks that gets your dander up.  I'd argue that the issue isn't really about decocking, but where the gun is pointed! 

If they made a gun that allowed a safe cocked start, did it with a good SA trigger, and also allowed the shooter to decock easily,  I'd probably think about getting one -- as that would be the best of both worlds.  The only guns I know of that do have that functionality aren't easily used in SA start mode.  (I think some H&K guns had that ability, but starting from cocked and locked was awkward.)

Some of the prior generation of Walthers, like the P99 (and the functionally similar S&W 99) apparently did it pretty well, and they were also striker-fired!   When decocked, they could be fired double-action -- you didn't need slide movement to pretension the striker spring! I didn't understand how these guns worked back when they were still available, so  I didn't didn't appreciate their technical sophistication until after they went out of production.  I might still pick one up one of these days if I stumble across one for sale or trade -- I almost picked one up last year.

Continue to use your decocker.  But I don't ask me and others to accept the argument/claim that manually decocking is necessarily any more dangerous than a lot of other gun-handling procedures we all perform or observe -- like presenting a pistol from the holster with a loaded chamber for the first shot on target. 

No matter whether you're firing your first shot or manually decocking the weapon, if you keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when the gun is in your hand(s), the risk of danger is less than the already miniscule .1%.   If you don't do that, you're already doing something very dangerous.

[briang2ad]

Ohiodff;  Basically true. The main reason is because a CZ has so much potential that you really need to detail strip and polish it up. This is made much harder with a DeCocker.  I have become somewhat a trigger snob especially in double action because double action is a hard shot and even with practice you still need a gun with a good double action trigger to start off your strings. I have found overtime that most of the DeCocker models are gritty and frankly most CZ?s are gritty out of the box.The omega trigger from what I have seen especially in the P series is very easy to work on and as long as you buy a gun that does not stack you can get an excellent trigger pull by doing smoothing polishing and putting in Cajun parts.

 CZUB could alleviate all this with good quality control on the fire control parts. However, they seem unwilling to do that so wen have to.  I find that most all  Sig?s Are good to go, and again the SP2022 triggers are really really nice in double action out of the box.

 I am not saying that most CZ?s are not good for use out of the box. However, to put them on par with a Sig, they need work.

 This is why I end up manually decocking on CZ 75 series guns. Again, I have no problem with D Cocker models in the P series and would love to try the new CZ 75B omega trigger.   I really like the D Cocker in its form and function on the steel 75 series.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.