Author Topic: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75  (Read 4539 times)

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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2019, 07:40:11 AM »
I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.

Clearly the SR triggers on the P series are in another category - they are better than PreBs in this sense.  Yet, I have found Legions with some grit and heaviness I have not found in the SP series.  ALL SPs I've tried have been smooth and FELT 10 LBS or less.  I own two and each is a thing of beauty in regards to smoothness of DA, and their reset is no worse than a stock CZ P gun.  Of course, I am not a reset Nazi and I don't shame those who are.  If you are that good, then its OK to brag.  Of course there are plenty of top shooters that 'slap' their triggers, so reset does not matter to them. 

My SPs are as smooth as my great PreBs and one of my P09s which is exceptional.  Not quite as light as my PreBs, but very nice. 

But, lets not get off the OP intent.  My point is that CZs need work to compete with SIGs, etc., and the decocking mechanism makes that more painful.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2019, 08:41:06 AM »
I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.

Clearly the SR triggers on the P series are in another category - they are better than PreBs in this sense.  Yet, I have found Legions with some grit and heaviness I have not found in the SP series.  ALL SPs I've tried have been smooth and FELT 10 LBS or less.  I own two and each is a thing of beauty in regards to smoothness of DA, and their reset is no worse than a stock CZ P gun.  Of course, I am not a reset Nazi and I don't shame those who are.  If you are that good, then its OK to brag.  Of course there are plenty of top shooters that 'slap' their triggers, so reset does not matter to them. 

My SPs are as smooth as my great PreBs and one of my P09s which is exceptional.  Not quite as light as my PreBs, but very nice. 

But, lets not get off the OP intent.  My point is that CZs need work to compete with SIGs, etc., and the decocking mechanism makes that more painful.


It's really more perception and opinion than fact. I'd put the SP guns right on par with the CZ P-07/09 series both having the same crappy long reset. One really to me is no better than the other and  I have never felt the SP was Sigs best work and really it isn't,it's just a cheaper line gun designed for the French that found it's way to the US.
CZ is putting their eggs in the striker fired basket and that's where the refinements will be. The 75 variants are old tech and I don't believe they will change any from what they are right now.
If we're being fair here then compare the CZ metal framed guns to the Sig metal framed guns and in this regard the Sigs may be more refined but are priced much higher than the CZ and many of them still need work to meet MY standards.
I like my M11A1 but the factory trigger is a joke so that had to be upgraded to the Gray Guns P-SAIT unit and the Sig Lite night sights don't cut it for me so those got swapped for Xray3's. So now that already overpriced M11 is approaching Legion territory as far as price.
As I said it's really all a matter of opinion but comparing apples to apples CZ's are still a better VALUE and you can upgrade one even a decocker which really is pretty easy to work on and still have less invested than you'll pay for most comparable Sigs.
Another thing to consider as far as value is there are no cheap quality mags to be had for the plastic framed CZ's or ANY Sigs. Mags for these guns are averaging well north of $30 each yet you can stock up on mags for any of the metal framed CZ's often under $25 each.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 09:21:57 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2019, 10:05:48 AM »
It's sometimes mentioned, but it always seemed to me that a  Witness (Tanfoglio-made guns) triggers, out of the box, were better than CZs .

That said, my experience with new Witness guns are limited, as I never bought a NEW Witness. I have had a bunch of used ones, and I had an acquaintance or two with new Witnesses that I got to try out when they first got them.  Same long pull for DA and longer-than-optimal resets as with CZs, but the triggers were seldom grungy, and in SA, the hammers never moved so obviously to the rear as with some CZs. Good out-of-the-box triggers are possible, and I don't understand why CZ won't do it.   As CGW and CZ Custom has shown, just a more refined hammer can make a big difference. 

Triggers are, to my thinking, CZs only significantly weak feature   That production quirk alone has probably kept CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works in business.  The triggers break in/wear in with use, but it takes time -- and it's a turnoff for people trying them out in a gun shop.  Just improving the trigger would probably improve sales noticeably and CZ doesn't seem to understand.

(I suspect CZ will move forward by tweaking the Omega system design and put more emphasis on striker-fired guns.) 

A striker-fired gun with a decocker that has second-strike capabilities (i.e., true DA/SA function) would be a bit like the Omega system for hammer-fired guns (which allows the user to switch from or to safety or decocker) -- a unique offering in an already popular gun line. 

I previously mentioned the Walther P99 series that had that functionality, and I got a private message from a member here who says the Springfield XDe also has that capability.  It's something CZ should explore, for it it's done right -- especially in a gun used in IDPA or USPSA -- that could be a truly unique selling opportunity for CZ.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 11:00:01 AM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2019, 10:56:00 AM »
Quote
Triggers are, to my thinking, CZs weakest (maybe only significant) feature   That production quirk alone has kept CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works in business. 
  Right on the spot Walt.  CZ seems to have NO interest in super OTB triggers.  Both TF and IWI spanks CZ when it comes to triggers.  Even Canik usually does somewhat better.

I have some P99s and they are great - especially my Gen 1.  They do have a tendency to stack at the DA break - a design flaw. 

OTB there is no comparison between my P07s and SP2022s - SP was MUCH better in smoothness and SA break, equal in reset and no need of anything really.  Once Cajunized I like the feel and shooting of the P07s though.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2019, 11:30:39 AM »
I've never handled a pistol of any kind that I would say could not be improved. I've also never owned a pistol that I didn't improve to bring it up to my standards. Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line. Massive 1911 parts support from many companies and the same with Glock parts. If there wasn't a market for improvements in ALL the brands those companies would not exist. Thankfully we have CGW and CZ Custom to bring us parts and accessories for our CZ's.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 11:38:25 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Spad124

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2019, 02:08:07 PM »
This has been an interesting thread for me as a new forum member.  While I'm fairly new to CZs, I have a decent amount of experience with S&W revolvers, and SIG and 1911 pistols.  For what its worth, my take is that the longer SA travel on a 75 BD is designed in to more closely mirror the DA travel so as to keep a more consistent length of travel between the SA mode and the decocked DA mode compared to say, a SIG P226.  With more consistent lengths of travel there is less readjustment going from DA to SA.  This makes the 75 BD more like the consistent DA pull on a revolver or a striker fired pistol. 

When I bought my 75 BD 2 1/2 years ago, my first CZ 75, the long SA travel through me at first. It was when I started firing transitions between decocked DA and SA that I began to see a reason for the long take up and appreciate it,  In contrast my P226 and P6 both have a significantly noticeable transition from DA/SA with the length of SA pull being half or less of the SA pull.  That DA to SA difference with the SIG takes more adjustment than the DA/SA transition in my BD.  Having owned and shot S&W revolvers for 30 plus years I can appreciate a consistent DA pull. 

So, while I understand from reading on this forum the SA pull length on a BD can be reduced and the feel improved, I don't think it was intended to be similar to short SA pull on a 1911.   

As a side note, since I bought my BD I've also acquired a P-01, PCR, and most recently a used 85B. (yes, I've caught the disease.)  Even thought the 85B is a 2016 manufacture, it is clear it has been shot enough (or maybe worked on?) so that the trigger pull is smooth and not gritty.  Of the others the BD had the grittiest out of the box trigger.  The PCR and P-01 had much better out of the box triggers.

And I just want to say thanks to the forum members for a tremendous amount of valuable information that I've gotten from the posts here.       

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2019, 03:03:26 PM »
Quote
Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line.

After market sells because that is the name of the American game.  Modify the snot out of it.  I think Walt is right to point out that CGW makes guns that are otherwise mediocre into VERY fine triggers.  I can tell you for certain, I would NOT own multiple P guns without CGW - it changed the guns that much.  One P07 went BACK to CZ USA because the trigger stank like a rotten fish.  After some parts, Cajunizing and 1000 rounds it is pretty good.  My two SP 2022s need NOTHING.  My P228s need NOTHING.  Would a SR Kit add something for many folks?  Yes.  But the triggers are great OTB - not so with most CZs - so Walt's statemenr holds water. 

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2019, 04:33:56 PM »
Quote
Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line.

After market sells because that is the name of the American game.  Modify the snot out of it.  I think Walt is right to point out that CGW makes guns that are otherwise mediocre into VERY fine triggers.  I can tell you for certain, I would NOT own multiple P guns without CGW - it changed the guns that much.  One P07 went BACK to CZ USA because the trigger stank like a rotten fish.  After some parts, Cajunizing and 1000 rounds it is pretty good.  My two SP 2022s need NOTHING.  My P228s need NOTHING.  Would a SR Kit add something for many folks?  Yes.  But the triggers are great OTB - not so with most CZs - so Walt's statemenr holds water.

Yeah it's still ALL opinion.If I had your SP guns or your P228's they would get the perfecting they deserve because in MY opinion they need it. If YOU are satisfied by them as is then that's good for YOU.
I've modded my CZ's including my P-07 and made them the perfect shooting weapons I prefer but then I've done that with the other 40 handguns I currently own of various makes. So if walt's statement holds water for you enjoy the drink.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2019, 04:41:46 PM »
The difference between ALL the SP2022s and MOST (70%) of CZ P guns I've handled are an opinion, but not mere opinion.  Smoothness and NOT stacking mean something in DA. Minimal or NO creep in SA means something.  No sir, not mere opinion. 

CZ's generally need work.  SIGs often don't, but prosper from it. 

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2019, 04:46:18 PM »
The difference between ALL the SP2022s and MOST (70%) of CZ P guns I've handled are an opinion, but not mere opinion.  Smoothness and NOT stacking mean something in DA. Minimal or NO creep in SA means something.  No sir, not mere opinion. 

CZ's generally need work.  SIGs often don't, but prosper from it.
We will just have to agree to disagree. What works for you isn't good enough for me.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2019, 04:55:35 PM »
Quote from: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM
I've never handled a pistol of any kind that I would say could not be improved.

I've owned a marvelous SIG P210-6, a SIG P226 X-Five Competition, and a S&W 52-2 that probably couldn't be improved without a major  redesign.  (The P226 X-Five did need a lighter factory recoil spring assembly.) There were no after-market parts for those guns worth bothering with (except, perhaps a greater-than 5-round magazine for the 52-2)  I also had a marvelous nickle-plated Colt Python a few years back that didn't seem to need any improvements.  I've also had a Sphinx 2000 or two that couldn't be easily improved. 

My Sphinx SDP is pretty good, too, but I did go to a lighter (CZ) hammer spring.  That was a matter of personal taste. (I also got a CGW spring kit for it, but never bothered to install it after changing out the hammer spring.)

Quote from: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM
To say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.

That's not exactly what I wrote. 

I wrote that the mediocre triggers ALONE probably keeps them in business.   My emphasis was on the "alone."   That includes the actual gunsmithing they do in the shop and the fire control assembly parts they've developed and sell to people who have learned of their products via internet searches and from forums like this.   One thing leads to another.   

Having a CZ can be almost like an addiction, and almost as costly.

I participate on a number of forums and I see both CZ Custom and CGW mentioned there often -- Probably as much as Gray Guys and some of the other "name" gunsmith shops.   

The other things that CZ-Custom and CGW provide -- design changes, enhancement, new-gun upgrades and more functional parts -- has hopefully helped move them both from marginally profitable firms to firms that are profitable enough to stick around (and continue innovating) for years to come. 

I suspect that David's 'striker' fix might never have seen the light of day if he was not already a recognized CZ expert in whom many folks have a great deal of confidence.  His shop's recognized competence and understanding of all things CZ was certainly why I got the striker kit for my P10c, and a spring kit for my Sphinx SDP (the one I've not yet installed.)  When I had questions about the SDP, I contacted David.
 

Offline besteff

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2019, 05:10:46 PM »
I've read this whole thread and it kinda' confounds me all the descriptions of bad triggers. Now granted, I am new to CZ's, but I have been shooting for about 25 years. I was a big fan of 1911's for a number of years, but also had a nice collection of SA and DA revolvers that I shot regularly. I've had DA revolvers with tough trigger pulls, but most were quite manageable. As for CZ's, I've been searching around my area for several weeks and have handled the 75B and 75BD side-by-side, the Compact manual safety, the SP-01 safety and decocker (Tactical), the Shadow 2, the RAMI, and just this past weekend, the P-01 Omega.

Let me tell you that I'm a small guy with small hands, and I also have a disability that weakens my hands. I had no problem with any CZ trigger pull in DA, and in comparing the safety versions with decocker versions, I could barely tell any difference. Barely! And that's while concentrating on what I was doing and wanting to tell the difference. I'm sure in a defensive encounter I'd be pulling any trigger with ease.

Am I just lucky in finding all these local CZ's with great OTB triggers? I get the impression from a lot of comments that there are all these unmanageable, gritty, multi-lb DA triggers out there! Certainly hasn't been my experience. In fact, the only handgun with a crappy trigger I've experienced in how many years I can remember is the new FN 509. When I pulled it the first time I gave a shocked look at the sales guy. He looked at me in agreement. It felt like someone stuffed a wad of sand in it.

I think the CZ triggers are excellent in any form. Sure, the Shadow 2 trigger is outstanding, but I will confidently state that it wasn't dramatically better than any others I've played with.

As for the decocker on a handgun, I seriously doubt it was designed out of fear, as one commenter stated. I'm pretty sure it was developed to offer a legitimate safety option to those who prefer it. I've had Sigs, Walthers, and others that had a decocker. I don't recall it ever being the reason why I selected a firearm, but I did decide to purchase decocker versons of any CZs I acquire. Well, except my Shadow 2. But that's just because it's a Shadow 2.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:16:53 PM by besteff »

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2019, 06:38:55 PM »
Some of us have been messing with CZ's and their triggers for a few decades.  Yes, I am somewhat a trigger snob - especially the DA pull.  Why?  Cuz if your first and most important shot is not even, stacks, and is over 9-10 LBS it is extremely hard to hit and that is not acceptable.  Does this happen on CZs?  Yup - just watched a vid of a guy with a P01 Omega measure the DA at well over 12 LBs. 

CAN CZ put out a fantastic trigger - YES - I own one.  I hand picked a P09 UGSR at a show and the thing is a dream.  As good as a Shadow.  Smooth DA, crisp SA and no grit OTB.  I may have checked 10 at the show - the rest varied from mediocre to terrible.  All gritty.  I also hand picked a P07 UG and it is DARN good - not quite as good as the P09, but very good.  The main problem is inconsistency. 

A steel safety gun is fairly easy to detail strip and with work, they can get like lubed glass.  May latest, a PreB 88 was a bit gritty, but is cleaning up pretty well after 500 rounds and 2 polishings. 

Only the P09 Urban Grey I hand picked is as good as my SIG SP 2022s.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2019, 07:14:47 PM »
I've read this whole thread and it kinda' confounds me all the descriptions of bad triggers. Now granted, I am new to CZ's, but I have been shooting for about 25 years. I was a big fan of 1911's for a number of years, but also had a nice collection of SA and DA revolvers that I shot regularly. I've had DA revolvers with tough trigger pulls, but most were quite manageable. As for CZ's, I've been searching around my area for several weeks and have handled the 75B and 75BD side-by-side, the Compact manual safety, the SP-01 safety and decocker (Tactical), the Shadow 2, the RAMI, and just this past weekend, the P-01 Omega.

Let me tell you that I'm a small guy with small hands, and I also have a disability that weakens my hands. I had no problem with any CZ trigger pull in DA, and in comparing the safety versions with decocker versions, I could barely tell any difference. Barely! And that's while concentrating on what I was doing and wanting to tell the difference. I'm sure in a defensive encounter I'd be pulling any trigger with ease.

Am I just lucky in finding all these local CZ's with great OTB triggers? I get the impression from a lot of comments that there are all these unmanageable, gritty, multi-lb DA triggers out there! Certainly hasn't been my experience. In fact, the only handgun with a crappy trigger I've experienced in how many years I can remember is the new FN 509. When I pulled it the first time I gave a shocked look at the sales guy. He looked at me in agreement. It felt like someone stuffed a wad of sand in it.

I think the CZ triggers are excellent in any form. Sure, the Shadow 2 trigger is outstanding, but I will confidently state that it wasn't dramatically better than any others I've played with.

As for the decocker on a handgun, I seriously doubt it was designed out of fear, as one commenter stated. I'm pretty sure it was developed to offer a legitimate safety option to those who prefer it. I've had Sigs, Walthers, and others that had a decocker. I don't recall it ever being the reason why I selected a firearm, but I did decide to purchase decocker versons of any CZs I acquire. Well, except my Shadow 2. But that's just because it's a Shadow 2.
I'm with you. I started out years ago with DA revolvers and some had very heavy pulls but with the proper dedication and practice even the heaviest DA pull can be mastered. Of course I'm one of the many who mods my guns but I've never handled a CZ that I would say was unshootable. They can certainly be made better but they are still good shooters as is and the metal framed CZ's are still about the best bang for the buck in the category.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2019, 07:33:51 PM »
No one is arguing that CZs have unuseable triggers. 

The whole idea of a good trigger pull is to be able to execute the pull without moving the gun at all.  There is no argument that it is easier to do this with a DA that is lighter and smoother (doesn't stack).  Can you train to keep a 18 LB trigger pull steady?  Maybe.  If it stacks and is 18 LBS it will take a long time, and a ton of ammo (You have to work through flinching also).  I had a P07 like this and while I could shoot it - it was annoying.  This makes training suck.  Not a good situation. 

Useable isn't necessarily good.  A smooth, refined trigger is FUN to train with.  This is a better situation.