PCR, Shadow 2 firing out of battery

[Jason248]

I agree about checking at each stage, also about pulling what you have loaded.  Many have had a squib due to their reloads. I unfortunately have had 2 in only my 9mm out of many 10s of thousands of rounds I’ve loaded.  In my case it was due to my progressive press coming to a stop due to an issue, me then clearing that issue and not realizing the piercer measure didn’t drop due to the malfunction…. So both squibbed enough to get in the barrel but not allow the next to chamber.

Regardless of what your cause may be, if you enjoy your gun and your fingers pull those rounds. It’s not like you can’t re use every component so all you lose is the time…

[M1A4ME]

If the powder ignited the bullet will leave the barrel.

If the powder didn't ignite the bullet can be in the barrel and the action should be chock full of unburned powder when your rack the slide to the rear.  Not burnt powder residue - unburned powder.  Like a dirty .22 rim fire only 100 times worse.

Is it the first round from the magazine?  Or farther down in the magazine?

If it's the first round how do you chamber it?  Hit the slide release and let the recoil spring slam the slide forward?  Pull back on the slide and release it letting the recoil spring slam the slide forward?  Do you pull the slide to the rear and then ease it forward that first time?  Should do that, you need to let the recoil spring push the slide forward unhindered by hand/finger grip on the slide.

If the ammo plunks into the chamber fine when you drop it in for the test it should be chambering fine when you load it to fire.  If not, something is dragging/hanging up and keeping the slide from going all the way forward.  Do you have the original recoil spring to install in it to make sure there is enough spring strength/slide velocity to feed/chamber the rounds reliably?

Sometimes a new gun needs a couple hundred rounds of full power ammo to break in the machine edges that rub/rotate together till they smooth out some during break in.

And that brings me to lube.  Is the pistol clean with some lube on the slide/frame rails and the hammer spring/strut and hammer/sear and the slide release shaft were it contacts the barrel and the barrel where it contacts the barrel bushing?

For the record, I have a bucket or two of CZ pistols and only one ever needed a small bit of polishing (on the feed ramp) to insure 100% feed/chambering.  Meaning that is the only one that had "break-in" issues.  You can get a bad item from any/all manufacturers, but yours having gone through CGW makes it much less likely than buying a pistol straight from the factory.

Good luck with them.  CZ's can be awesome pistols.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Pretty sure this thread is dead since the OP hasn't made a reply in 14 months.

[lyktorct]

The OP is still around and working on the problem.   I've come to the conclusion that I have an ignition problem. My last entry a few months ago mentioned  finding SS rods lodged in a flash hole leading me to believe that prevented complete ignition.  This theory was corroborated by finding unburnt powder on a shooting bench after one squib, and noticing a barrel full of unburnt powder after another.   I recently examined hundreds of cleaned cases  using the wet SS rod tumbler and found no issues with rods in flash holes.   I did find one case with a undersized rod lodged across the primer pocket.   A week or two ago while reading a thread on a forum, and I forgot which one, where the author was complaining  about getting a number of squibs loading  38 Super using CFE Pistol powder.    His comments hit home!! He surmised the problem was incomplete ignition and was asking if anyone else had this issue with CFE P.   Of course there  were many responses to his thread touting the popularity of the powder etc etc. I almost certain all my squibs were with rounds loaded with the Everglades 124 gr RN bullet.  The bullets were seated .015 off the lands, using the clunk and spin test. I'm almost certain I've not had a squib using other bullets...Perhaps the combination of that particular bullet, CFE P, and seating depth, for what ever reason, compromises complete powder ignition.   

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

 If you are still chasing this problem at this late date then you still have not concluded that it's you not the components as you were advised here before.  You need to go back to handloading 101 or stop handloading altogether and just buy factory ammo before you hurt yourself or someone else.
How can you even say you are "almost certain" you haven't had a squib using other bullets as you posted above??? That tells us you have no idea what you are assembling and shooting in the first place. You should be logging what you are loading so if a problem arises you can go back and review the recipe not guessing at what is or is not happening.

[tdogg]

The OP is still around and working on the problem.   I've come to the conclusion that I have an ignition problem. My last entry a few months ago mentioned  finding SS rods lodged in a flash hole leading me to believe that prevented complete ignition.  This theory was corroborated by finding unburnt powder on a shooting bench after one squib, and noticing a barrel full of unburnt powder after another.   I recently examined hundreds of cleaned cases  using the wet SS rod tumbler and found no issues with rods in flash holes.   I did find one case with a undersized rod lodged across the primer pocket.   A week or two ago while reading a thread on a forum, and I forgot which one, where the author was complaining  about getting a number of squibs loading  38 Super using CFE Pistol powder.    His comments hit home!! He surmised the problem was incomplete ignition and was asking if anyone else had this issue with CFE P.   Of course there  were many responses to his thread touting the popularity of the powder etc etc. I almost certain all my squibs were with rounds loaded with the Everglades 124 gr RN bullet.  The bullets were seated .015 off the lands, using the clunk and spin test. I'm almost certain I've not had a squib using other bullets...Perhaps the combination of that particular bullet, CFE P, and seating depth, for what ever reason, compromises complete powder ignition.

I'm wondering if the 124gr bullets are literally wedging the ss pin into the flash hole?  How long are your SS pins?   What is your seating depth?  If that truly is the case, could you set one off seating the bullet?  That could be devastating and dangerous to you and your equipment!

You may want to reconsider the use of SS pins for tumbling brass.  I used to use them but have since stopped and just wet tumble brass in the same solution (lemon shine and washnwax).  The outside gets just as shiny and the inside gets plenty clean enough for loading.

Cheers,
Toby

[lewmed]

 I'm with tdog I stopped using the steel pins a couple years ago after I found several steel pins in my Dillon case feeder.  Also a friend of mine started having squib loads with his reloads after he started wet tumbling and he couldn't figure out why.  I looked at his reloading process and found he wasn't decapping his brass before wet tumbling and was leaving moisture in his cleaned cases. The moisture in the primer pocket contaminated the new primer and the powder charge and caused the squibs problem solved !

[Earl Keese]

I'm with tdog I stopped using the steel pins a couple years ago after I found several steel pins in my Dillon case feeder.  Also a friend of mine started having squib loads with his reloads after he started wet tumbling and he couldn't figure out why.  I looked at his reloading process and found he wasn't decapping his brass before wet tumbling and was leaving moisture in his cleaned cases. The moisture in the primer pocket contaminated the new primer and the powder charge and caused the squibs problem solved !

Same here, no more pins. Only took one try and that was enough. I also decap prior to wet tumbling. Sucks that it adds a step, but absolutely worth it.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I dry tumble before the resize/de-cap then dry polish tumble before cases hit the XL750 case feeder. Never a problem and never a squib. Regardless of the method being used it's up to the user to make sure the cases are properly prepped and inspected before going any further.

[Wobbly]

I have 2 Cajunized CZ's and am having issues, especially with the PCR firing out of battery resulting in squibs. This happened twice. The shot feels somewhat normal, but the following round won't chamber, thank God.
   

Lots of theories, without much data from the OP. Let's go back to the very beginning....

1) "Firing out of battery, resulting in squibs." This is "backasswards" as they say in my part of the country. First comes the squib, THEN the following round won't chamber... much less fire. Either the OP is confused or he/she is bringing incorrect assumptions here from another forum.

2) IF "firing out of battery" comes first, then the OP is loading his ammunition without accounting for the bullet-to-barrel fit, and his/her OAL is too long. In that case the OP is a danger to him/herself and others shooting in the near vicinity.

3) OK, I could see an occasional pin stuck inside a 223 bottleneck case, but if anyone here is wet tumbling and leaving stainless steel tumbling media inside straight-walled 9mm or 38Super cases then their tumbling process needs to completely re-thought. That is NOT the fault of wet tumbling or the stainless steel pins. That is CLEARLY the fault of the operator. Their agitation process to remove the pins is obviously NOT strenuous or violent enough to remove all the pins. Can't blame that one on the equipment. That one is clearly human error in the form of extremely lax process.


Very sorry to say, but everything I've read here points to an under-trained individual with multiple reloading process errors and education gaps. The good news is that all this can be fixed with proper training. The bad thing is that where ever this individual's reloading home forum is (judging by the post count it is NOT here), they are not teaching good technique or process, and probably only reinforcing VERY bad process habits with feedback like "Send it !".

Unless corrective steps are taken, I have to side with SVPP and tell this person to stick with factory ammo.


All the best.

[dillonguy098]

All I use is CFE Pistol for 9mm. The recipe for my 9mm reloads is 124 gr. Xtreme flat point bullets over 5.0 grains of CFE Pistol with a OAL of 1.050”. I also use a 124 gr. Xtreme round nose bullet using the same recipe of CFE Pistol with an OAL of 1.100”. I reload on a Dillon 750XL with Hornady dies. After each batch of reloads I use a Lyman chamber gauge to check my reloads to make sure they fit in the gauge correctly. All my reloads function correctly in my TSO, AccuShadow, SP-01, and my P-07 without issues. Whenever I run into problems like that I go back and look over everything to make sure nothing has changed. Just my thoughts. Good luck.

[lyktorct]

I'd like to thank those forum members who offered positive solutions to my problem, and  I'd like to address a few of your comments regarding my technique.  Regarding cleaning cases: I've cleaned a few thousand rifle cases wet tumbling with SS pins, and vigorously tumble them in 3 or 4 fresh water rinses. I have found pins in the flash holes of a few cases, like I did with the 9mm case mentioned in one of my last threads.  No agitation process would have dislodged these pins as they were removed with needle nose pliers.  I'm anal about clean cases, clean primer pockets, albeit not necessary when loading handgun ammo, just the way I am.  Cases are decapped, cleaned, dried.  Water contamination of the primers is not an issue. 

The 4 different bullets I've used were all "clunk and spin" tested for each handgun, subtracting  .015' from where the bullet touches the lands to arrive at a COL for that bullet for that barrel for that firearm.....so cartridge length isn't an issue preventing the bullet from fully seating in the chamber. I use a case gauge occasionally but have never found a round that didn't seat in the gauge.

Loading handgun ammo isn't rocket science.....a primed case, a measured charge of powder, and seating a bullet to a predetermined length.   Of course, attention to detail, consistency,  correct powder charge range, etc
This leads me to where I get my information.  The sticky in this forum on ammunition/reloading was a great source of info, as are reading threads in a number of forums both handgun and rifle.  Then of course there are the "bibles"....Lyman 50th edition, Hornady 10th ed, and Speer #12.  I've used CFE Pistol exclusively but unfortunately the Lyman and Speer books don't even list CFE Pistol powder for 9mm.   I'm really into accuracy!!  I segregate my cases according to head stamp, and  I believe I read in the sticky of this forum about achieving optimal accuracy with consistent case lengths. Lyman book says case length should be trimmed to .751, the Speer manual say .744 and the Hodgdon Data says .750.   Funny, I can't find a fired case coming anywhere near those lengths. 

The Hornady manual lists a powder range for CFE Pistol with a 9mm 124gr RN to be 4.2 to 5.3gr, whereas the Hodgdon Data range is 4.9-5.5gr.  My first loads were 4.3gr of CFE, a much smaller charge than what Hodgdon recommends.....I didn't know this when I loaded a few hundred cases...My reasoning was the lighter loads would be more comfortable to shoot, possibly more accurate, use less powder, and if they cycled the action all would be well.    Well, maybe not!!
I've not had a squib since I've increased my powder charge to 4.9+ gr.  Even with the light loads the only bullet I had squib issues with was the Everglades 124 gr RN, but not  their 124 gr JHPRN.  Anecdotal, I know

I misunderstood, misquoted the results of a case "firing out of battery".  With all the squibs there was blow back, and the cases were black, so I assumed the slide was out of battery causing this.  In reality, an out of battery discharge is violent, destroys the case, and can damage a firearm. 

Factory ammo doesn't hold a candle to my reloads.

[Wobbly]

I'd like to thank those forum members who offered positive solutions to my problem, and  I'd like to address a few of your comments regarding my technique.  Regarding cleaning cases: I've cleaned a few thousand rifle cases wet tumbling with SS pins, and vigorously tumble them in 3 or 4 fresh water rinses. I have found pins in the flash holes of a few cases, like I did with the 9mm case mentioned in one of my last threads.  No agitation process would have dislodged these pins as they were removed with needle nose pliers.  I'm anal about clean cases, clean primer pockets, albeit not necessary when loading handgun ammo, just the way I am.  Cases are decapped, cleaned, dried.  Water contamination of the primers is not an issue. 

I can fully appreciate that you believe your process is very, very good. And I can see from your posts and especially from this last response that you take a lot of pride in your work. So with that footnote, let me simply critique one of the many processes that's been detailed for us.

Case Cleaning
1) Vigorously tumble them during 3 or 4 rinses ? Don't you think that the presence of water might slow their ability of the media to react, and thereby act to keep the media in place ? If you are trying to dislodge something that you absolutely and positively DO NOT want to remain a part of a second body then common sense would dictate that this action be done in air. This because air is a thinner medium, and allows the part that you are trying to dislodge to react quicker.

2) The average flash hole is 0.060 to 0.062" in diameter. If you are having to pull stainless media from you flash holes with pliers, then your media is WAY over-sized. In fact it should be no larger in diameter than 0.035". I suggest you order a box of the Frankfort Arsenal SST media and give that a try.

Frankly, I've never heard of SST media for firearms brass of the diameter range that you describe. I'm sure they make industrial tumbling media that big for use on larger parts such as gears, but NOT for cartridge cases. (Or, better yet, stop all use of any and all media, because the chemicals are doing most of the work anyway.)

3) "No agitation process would have dislodged these pins", well here I have to point out that of all the 100,000 reloaders using wet tumbling, your's is the only report of extreme issues. Simply from a statistical standpoint lets consider 100,000 people with zero issues and 1 with issues. If we give you the benefit of the doubt and say 10% of those are doing it wrong, the factors are still 90,000 to 1. So just on the face of it, we might want to consider who is right and who might possibly need improvement.


Believe me, I don't want to start a war over this. I simply want to point out that the "best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray". It has been that way since time began. The wonderful thing about a real "community" is that you can experiment with ideas, and you will often find (as I have on multiple occasions) that your best ideas simply don't stand up to the light of thoughtful examination. As a design engineer, I can tell you that if 3 of every 10 of your ideas pan out, you can be a real hero !! To put it another way, the lifetime batting average of the greatest baseball player EVER is only 366. (And they've been playing baseball now for 100 years.) Meaning Ty Cobb only got a hit about 1/3 of the time !!

So I urge you to re-examine your processes, which are "tried", but not so "true". We truly respect that you are "going down swinging", but you are possibly standing too close to the problem. The community here is really trying hard to help you.

All the best.

[Earl Keese]

"Factory ammo doesn't hold a candle to my reloads."
How many squibs have you had with factory ammo?

[George16]

"Factory ammo doesn't hold a candle to my reloads."
How many squibs have you had with factory ammo?

I like this response