Author Topic: Colt will ruin CZ.  (Read 23448 times)

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Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2022, 05:45:39 PM »
.


So, am I the only member here that isn't losing sleep over this???

I have much more firearms related concerns to worry about, MUCH MORE.  Plus I learned this nice little trick years ago-------------



My Gawd, it is like the end of the world as we know it and that is coming from someone the might (or might not) own five CZ pistols.
Losing sleep? Hardly. This is a CZ discussion forum, one might expect to find enthusiasts here... concerned about the brand. Maybe you should find your own paper bag.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2022, 10:45:15 PM »
.


So, am I the only member here that isn't losing sleep over this???

I have much more firearms related concerns to worry about, MUCH MORE.  Plus I learned this nice little trick years ago-------------



My Gawd, it is like the end of the world as we know it and that is coming from someone the might (or might not) own five CZ pistols.


Amateur!!! I have five CZ pistols of the exact same model (Rami BD)!!! And that’s just for starters.

Obviously, you’re not one of The Defenders of The Realm, as we are, so you wouldn’t understand…probably just a Glocktard, anyway…🥸

Offline Grendel

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2022, 11:29:29 PM »


Obviously, you’re not one of The Defenders of The Realm, as we are, so you wouldn’t understand…probably just a Glocktard, anyway…🥸

I'll see no more of this in the thread. Meataxe, you know better.
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2022, 02:47:17 PM »
Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations.  We have no say or control of the decisions that are made.  Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation.  There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".

Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product.  Only time will tell.  After all it is an american icon.

I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated.  I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline Claymore504

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2022, 04:04:31 PM »
Spot on tdogg.

skin

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2022, 04:07:56 PM »
+1 tdogg

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #111 on: September 14, 2022, 06:37:14 PM »
Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations.  We have no say or control of the decisions that are made.  Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation.  There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".

Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product.  Only time will tell.  After all it is an american icon.

I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated.  I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.

Cheers,
Toby


I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.

I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.

However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 06:51:33 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #112 on: September 15, 2022, 01:14:50 AM »
I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.

I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.

However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.

First and foremost, I'd encourage everyone to review this marketing slide deck from Feb 2021 (and realize it's spin to the extent allowed under financial law): https://cdn.czg.cz/docs/CZG_Corporate_Introduction_final_CS_KB_16022021_v2.pdf

Main takeaway on my end is that 1) CZ more than tripled their debt to buy Colt, 2) existing debt and probably this new debt as well appears to variable rate per the 2020 report (anyone remember the variable rate subprime mortgage crisis of the Obama years where buyers who should have been unqualified lost their homes? -- and remember we're in a rising interest rate environment), 3) their production facilities are overwhelmingly in Europe -- Czech Republic, Germany, and Sweden -- and 4) their shotguns are produced in Turkey, which I didn't realize.

And BLUF: from my perspective is that CZ-UB rolled the dice and decided to buy Colt as a gambit.  The problem though is that Colt has a very different business model with expensive materials, labor, and real estate, while CZ-UB had cheap materials, labor, and real estate...  And now given the Ukraine war and Russian sanctions, CZ is not only cut off from cheap materials from Russia, but also is facing skyrocketing energy costs in both the Czech Republic and Germany...  In fact, the Czech's now have the most expensive electricity costs in Europe AND many European metals manufacturers/smelters are ceasing operations due to energy costs multiples of retail products of refined metals...  Sweden is less affected than the CR or Germany, but also feeling the pinch.

Meataxe: Honestly, the only interest I have in Colt is Canada's Diemaco, which to date, they've refused to offer in the US.

Tdogg: Many of us have seen this game before, and know that it usually goes badly.  Granted there are now geopolitical events that are exacerbating the albatross that is Colt, but even then -- anyone in the firearms industry for any length of time would also tell you the price inflation and firearms buying frenzy that followed Biden's "coronation" is par for the course and unsustainable long-term -- it was roughly a 50% jump in US sales revenues in 1 year, and CZ's slide deck above appears to be advertising it as not only sustainable but indicative of future growth potential...  That's nuts!

To be clear, I do appreciate your comment and perspective, but for anyone who knows finance bros/B-school grads or has worked for a company in the modern mergers & acquisitions era in the process of M&A, knows that this is a shell game to extract value for shareholders regardless of detriment to underlying businesses tends to go badly long-term (financial pros/bros are only interested in quarterly reports).  And we just saw this exact same thing domestically with the bankruptcy of Freedom Group -- Remington, Tapco, Para, Barnes, etc. -- owned by Cerebus Capital Management...

So it's most certainly informed concern, and nothing that any of us CZ enthusiasts here are wishing or take any pleasure in sharing, but it is reality.  Do with this info what you may.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 08:26:41 AM by Wobbly »

Offline crosstimbers

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #113 on: September 15, 2022, 02:57:00 PM »
Regardless of what CZUB is doing and who is running the US operations.  We have no say or control of the decisions that are made.  Until we get an official statement from CZUB all this speculation is just that speculation.  There is no sense in getting upset, bad mouthing the brand, or resorting to name calling for those that are not on the bandwagon of this perceived "fluster cluck".

Honestly I hope that CZ can pull Colt up and make it a brand that is revered for it's history and quality product.  Only time will tell.  After all it is an american icon.

I'm sure that there is much still left to do with the acquisition and given the current world affairs with CZUB's close neighbor, it's probably going to take more time than anticipated.  I imagine that CZUB is distracted or even refocused operations to support military contracts at the moment.

Cheers,
Toby


I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.

I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.

However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.

I agree with this.
It's not saving any water if you have to flush it over and over....

Offline tdogg

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #114 on: September 15, 2022, 04:29:59 PM »
I totally disagree. One of the great things about Internet forums is that they allow the customers to express their desires, likes and dislikes about what a given company is doing. If said company is smart, they’re going to listen to their customers. If they’re stupid, as Colt has been for decades, they’re going to shut their ears to their customer base and instead plug into the echo chamber of board members and “expert” MBAs. That’s why Colt has been in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, alienating the huge US civilian market. Colt can’t even hang onto their supposed “bread and butter” military contracts. As has been mentioned, Colt’s attitude towards its customers is as arrogant as it is stupid: “shut your mouth and take what we give you, like a good little fan boy” with the predictable results (multiple bankruptcy). Unfortunately, these same people are still in charge at Colt, and it looks like CZ UB is going to put them in charge of all “COLT cz” operations in the US, which is their largest market, actually now a 66% chunk of their entire world market. This doesn’t bode well.

I really don’t give a bleep about Colt, as far as I see it, their only value is the trademark and name recognition by people who don’t know any better. Colt doesn’t make any products that I’d buy and they’ve steadfastly refused to innovate, or when they have tried to “innovate” they’ve churned out some massive duds, by totally misjudging the market and/or horrible execution and quality control.

However, I HOPE CZ is listening to their customers, as they seem to have in the past, but not so much in the present. They turn a deaf ear to their customer base at their own peril.

But your voicing your concern over an internet rumor at this point.  How about we wait till the organization of CZUB/Colt/CZUSA is announced?  You might be working yourself up over nothing.  I'm all for CZ making good business decisions and staying solvent!  I'd hate for them to go belly up especially if it was a result of the Colt acquisition.  I'm a fanboy as well.

I'd be shocked if anyone at CZUB is paying attention to this forum at all.  If they were, wouldn't they want an official spokes person to share news?  It seems this forum is a target rich audience and they could drum up excitement for new offerings.  CZUSA may be more likely to pay attention but I don't think they have much influence on the brand.

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 08:27:49 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Skookum

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #115 on: September 15, 2022, 10:47:14 PM »
CZUSA may be more likely to pay attention but I don't think they have much influence on the brand.

If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.

I live in the suburbs east of Seattle.  When I bought my CZs in 2012 there was no gun shop on the entire Eastside that stocked any CZ.  I finally found a shop that had a supplier that would ship them the CZ 83 I wanted.  The other three CZs I bought that year I found after diligently and patiently searching the internet.

Seven years later I had my Beretta Tomcat shipped to a nearby gunshop/indoor range/training center.  This facility, a gathering place for Glock worshippers, could not order a CZ for me in 2012, but in 2019 had CZs in stock, including a Shadow 2.

CZ's significant penetration of the US market in such a short span of time cannot be soley attributed to the gun marketing skills of the natural-born British East African or Dark Brandon.  Someone at CZ-USA was doing something right, while at the same time folks at Colt Holding were screwing up.

As CZ fans we have a right, perhaps even a duty, to air concerns about the management of our favorite firearms manufacturer.  Sitting back and waiting for bad decisions to be made, so we can punish such decisions by withholding our gun-buying dollars, is a passive-aggressive and reactionary strategy.

RSR points out interesting and relevant economic realities.  In retrospect, the decision to buy Colt last year looks good only in comparison to a decision to buy Twitter this year.
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Offline RSR

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2022, 02:25:38 AM »
If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.

The US being one-half of CZ-UB's revenues was pre-Colt acquisition FWIW...  So that share has almost certainly hugely risen for the parent company -- I'd guess ~85% is now US consumer or Colt sales.  Probably in the sllde deck I shared if you want to dig into it.

Further, the US spends more on defense than the next 9 countries (2-10) combined.  Just like w/ Colt, consumers will now be second fiddle to military and LE pursuits.  Which is why they're removing options from their (CZ) catalog that appeal to the American consumer IMO. 
https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/06/the-united-states-spends-more-on-defense-than-the-next-9-countries-combined

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Offline Skookum

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2022, 06:48:21 AM »
If half of CZ's sales funnel thru CZ-USA, CZ-USA would have significant influence on an enlightened parent company.

The US being one-half of CZ-UB's revenues was pre-Colt acquisition FWIW...  So that share has almost certainly hugely risen for the parent company …


And, of those pre-Colt US sales, I'll guess close to 0% were to military and LE.  The civilian market was the target market for CZ.  Seems a mistake to abandon your core market.  The Colt acquisition should, in my opinion, best be viewed as an opportunity to expand the CZG market in the US, not switch it.
Skookum
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CZ 83, 9 Browning Court, Satin Nickel
CZ 75 Compact, 9 Luger, Dual Tone — Satin Nickel/Matte Blue
CZ 82, 9 Makarov, Czechoslovak People's Army Black
CZ 83, 7.65 Browning, Glossy Blue
Beretta 3032 Tomcat, .32 Auto, Inox

Offline Hammer Time

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2022, 10:17:40 AM »
I would seriously question how many MIL/Agency contracts Colt still has at this point (in the U.S.). I think they have lost a lot of their market share in this area over the past decade or so, but the perception persists that they are a "big player" in the contract world. I don't think they really are anymore.

On the flip side, what Colt offers the public is of pretty limited appeal in the year 2022. Not that many are still buying 1911s and higher-end production revolvers. I'm in that group that does buy them, but I realize my interests are definitely a minority of the gun-buying public these days.

CZ offers MUCH more variety for the U.S. civilian gun buyer these days than Colt does.

CZ_FANATIC

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Re: Colt will ruin CZ.
« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2022, 10:51:00 AM »
There is only one more "CZ" that I want, and that is the DWX. If they ever decide to build them they will sell like hotcakes.