9mm to 9x23 Conversion Info Needed

[Rod Slinger]

Alex... 9x23 vs  357 Sig.  Interesting question.   I have a Witness small frame and large frame in 357 Sig.  Jest started working with the 38 Super,  late starter there.   The 9x25 Dillon may be the better answer to the Sig.  On the 357 Sig. The best gun for this round is the large frame.  The reason I state this is as follows.  The 357 Sig in the small frame is bullet and AOL sensitive.  Let the length creep or use blunt hollow points and the rounds want to bridge in the mag.  In the larger Mags for the large frame Witness you can load a wider weight of bullets and by increasing AOL increase safely the power charge which will make the Sig.  Zip along. 

Loading the 357 Sig  is like loading any bottle neck cartridge in that they require more care.  Possibly the better bullet choice for the Sig. round  would have been a true .357 dia. bullet  instead of the .355 9mm. bullet.  I would like to be able to run 110gr and 125gr rounds made for the 357Mag.  Well I guess I have stared the pot enough for now.  R S

[Bret]

I have not actually loaded any 9x23 yet.  I just have everything that I need besides the powder.  I'm going to wait until I get my upper back before loading some cartridges.  By having the 9x23 upper, I can do a better job of setting the correct overall cartridge length.  I've read that small rifle primers should be used, so I'm sticking with the experience of others.

As for the cost of a reloading system, it really depends if you're going with a single stage press or a progressive press.  You can do a greater quantity on a progressive, but it costs more.  I've loaded on a single stage press for over fifteen years.  It takes longer than a progressive, but I'm able to keep up with my ammo needs.  I do however buy factory ammo to supplement my 9mm usage.  I would personally suggest starting with a single stage press and then buying a progressive later if you feel you have the need.  A single stage press will still be useful even if you later buy a progressive.  As for cost, it just depends on which model you go with.  I'm partial to Hornady equipment because I like the dies.  Others will work fine too.  They'll all produce good ammo if setup properly, it's just that some equipment is easier to work with or more accurate than other equipment.  I'd suggest watching your friend, watching videos on youtube, and reading reloading books.  Lyman's reloading book does the best job of describing the overall process in my opinion.  None of the reloading manuals are complete though and I've even found information that I don't agree with.  Finally, ask plenty of questions.  The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked.

[Stuart]

I have had my Dillon 550 since 1985 and I have loaded a variety of pistol ammo with it. Mostly things for USPSA so 9mm, 9x21, 9x23, 38 super, .40, 45ACP, 38spl and .357 magnum.
it has been a very versatile press and turns out great ammo. To this day I can call up Dillon and tell them I need a part and they ship it out for free. Pretty cool

anyway 9x23. I loaded WIN brass, Fed or Win small rifle primers, I played with 115, 124 and 147, but ended up with 124JHP. They were accurate and I good performance out of my comp.
I believe my loads were mostly either Viht or WIN powders.

[Rod Slinger]

Bert.... I am in 100% agreement with your comments on reloading.  I also love Hornady  equipment.  I started out on a RCBS Rock Chucker  which I still use along with a Hornady Projector and a newer AP with case feeder.  I find the load accuracy with the Hornady to be better than all but weighed charges.  R S

[mustang400]

Single stage should work on 500rds/mo? I'll start looking at Hornaday and Dillon but i'm a big fan of service after the sale. If you get a Hornaday can i use Dillon dies?

[ReloaderFred]

Almost all the bigger manufacturers have a lifetime warranty on their reloading products.  I've yet to pay for a replacement part from RCBS, Redding, Dillon or Hornady, so you won't go wrong with any of them. 

The only problem with using Dillon dies on another press is the powder through expander.  You have to have the powder measure mounted on the die to throw powder with it, or to expand case mouths.  Other than that, almost all current production dies use a 7/8"x14 thread, so they will work with almost any currently made press.

I have die sets from all of the current manufacturers, plus some that went out of business long ago.  The loading presses on my loading bench at the current time are two Hollywood Sr. presses, one Hornady LNL, one RCBS Rockchucker and a Magma Case Master Jr., which is used to uniform straight wall pistol cases. 

Reloading is about the only hobby I know of where the manufacturers offer lifetime warranties, even if you're not the original purchaser. 

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bret]

I got to thinking some more about this conversion and it dawned on me that the slide of my new 9mm Match has a different profile than that of the Classic II slide that came with my 9mm/22LR Combo.  This might equate to different weights which in turn would effect the recoil spring needed to be used depending on which upper half was used for the conversion.  So, I weighed each slide with the barrel and recoil spring removed.  The Classic II slide weighs 10.96oz and the Match slide weighs 13.20oz.  Therefore, all else being equal, the Match slide will provide more resistance to the recoil.  Or to look at it another way, it will require a lighter recoil spring than the Classic II slide.  Since it has more metal, my guess is that it will also be more durable than the Classic II slide.  This obviously wouldn't matter for regular 9mm, but it might be important for 9x23.  The bottom line is that slide weight is another reason to lean toward the Match if you're going to do this conversion.

[mustang400]

ReloaderFred,
So press and dies should be made by the same company? Would cut down on loading issues for a newbie. A real life time warranty is very cool in this day and time. I assume this equipment can be bought slightly used or would you even recomend that to a new loader?

Bret,
When i bought my 38S Match it came with the smaller sport tactical adj. rear sight. I then bought a 9mm Match conversion upper and it came with LPA adj. rear sights and 9mm cut into the top of the slide. Which way came on your 9mm Match? Does your Match have the new rails on it? My gun was made in the early spring and doesn't not have them. They could help a little with the recoil. What recoil spring do you think you will end up with?

[ReloaderFred]

Mustang400,

You can mix and match your dies and press, since they all take the same threads.  The only issue is the Dillon Powder Through Expander.  What this does is expand the case mouth as it's dropping the powder charge, but you have to have the Dillon Powder Measure installed on top of the die for this to happen.

My suggestion would be to get an RCBS Rockchucker press.  It's a single stage press that you will be able to hand down to your grandkids.  Every bench should have a single stage press on it, anyway.  Any brand of dies will work on the press, but I would suggest either RCBS, Lyman or Hornady dies. 

You'll also need a powder measure and every company that makes reloading equipment makes a powder measure.  My bench has 5 of them on it at the present time (2 Hornady, 2 Reddings, and a Belding & Mull).  I gave away my Dillon powder measure quite some time ago, and I've got an old Hollywood on the shelf, plus another Redding. 

You'll also need some sort of reloading scale, either balance beam or electronic.  I have both, but have only been using the electronic of late. 

You're also going to need a dial caliper if you don't already have one.  They make both digital and mechanical.  Both work well enough for bullet seating, etc., but for really precision work, you'd want a micrometer, but you don't really need one for simple loading chores.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Bret]

I got my upper back and the conversion looks great.  The chamber looks perfectly smooth like it came that way from the factory and the added three dot sights look perfect.  I am very pleased.  I was also able to pick up some VihtaVuori 3N37 powder and Winchester small rifle primers.  I just ordered a extra power recoil spring set from Wolff.  Once the springs come in and I get some cartridges loaded, I'll finally be able to take this baby to the range.

[jwc007]

I got my upper back and the conversion looks great.  The chamber looks perfectly smooth like it came that way from the factory and the added three dot sights look perfect.  I am very pleased.  I was also able to pick up some VihtaVuori 3N37 powder and Winchester small rifle primers.  I just ordered a extra power recoil spring set from Wolff.  Once the springs come in and I get some cartridges loaded, I'll finally be able to take this baby to the range.

Congratulations! 

I look forward to reading your Range Report!  I like VihtaVouri Powders and have had very good luck with them!  Unfortunately, they are no longer sold by any local dealers.  I still have some on stock.

[mustang400]

When i got my 9x23 conversion back from Jim the first time, i used the small guide rod that that came with the 9mm Match upper conversion kit(smaller than the stock 38S guide rod) and the 38S spring. It ran 75rds of Winchester factory ammo without a hitch.
 
I'm cleaning the gun the next day and can not get the G/R and spring out of the slide. I walk away and come back at it for three days, it's not clearing the peanut! I'd already made arangements with Jim to fit another 9mm barrel to replace the one he coverted to 9x23. EAA never talks Drop-In. I now have to call him back and and he agree's to take the complete gun( he felt sorry for a mechanical pea brain). The 38S frame, 9mm slide with stuck 9x23 barrel in it, Henning Cone G/R, Wolffe 12-16lb springs, K9 & K38 mags, ammo and new 9mm barrel(needs fitting) all go in a box and mailed to Jim. It's on his bench along with Bret's upper.

Happy ending to this stupid story. Gun box returns on 10/5 and off to the range today. Jim recomended 18lb spring for the 9x23(16lb thru the brass(factory ammo) way to far. On the 9mm he liked the 10lb spring. He was inpressed with Henning's Cone guide rods. Lesson well learned for me, if i beef up the ammo other parts have to be upgraded.

The complete 38 Super gun,9x23 upper, 9mm barrel, stock K9, K38 mags, K38 mags modded with Henning H500,H580,H1410 pads and Mec-Gar 38Super-LF mags all went to the range. Fired 9mm, 38 Super, 38 Super/Comp and 9x23 Winchester, All went bang. Great day at the range! Four things i learned today: (1)- Henning Cone guide rod has enough ass to it to handle the 9x23 factory load (2)- H580 pad kit will load 21+1 (3)- Armscor 38Super ammo was just as accurate as Atlanta Arms & Ammo 38 S/C with Zero 125gr JHP Major load (4)- Witness Match 9x23 is one bad ass carry gun at 21+1.

[Bret]

mustang400, thanks for the tip on the Henning guide rod.  After comparing the design to the factory guide rod, I have no idea why Tanfoglio doesn't make them this way to begin with.  So, I ordered one.  Hopefully it will be here in short order along with my Woff XP recoil spring set.

I loaded 50rds of 9x23 today using VV 3N37 powder, Magtech 124gr FMJ bullets, Winchester 9x23 brass, and Winchester small rifle primers.  At first I set the cartridge overall length to 1.300", but I had some trouble getting them to fit in the magazine.  I seated the bullets a little deeper to 1.280" and they filled up the magazine just fine.  Based on this it seems that a 124gr JHP would allow for the bullet to not be seated as deeply resulting in more case volume.

[mustang400]

Bret,
As you know i will not start reloading till the new year. It seems that the mags and gun like factory OAL(whatever that is?), i've had 0% feeding issues with the Q4304 JSP(125gr) factory ammo. The AA&A 38S/C with Zero JHP(125gr) has the same OAL as the 9x23 ammo again shot with out issues using my 38S slide and same mags.

I will send one of each so you could tear down and reverse engineer to their OAL if you think that might help?

[Bret]

I will send one of each so you could tear down and reverse engineer to their OAL if you think that might help?

I really appreciate the offer, but it's not necessary.  Determining the OAL for a particular cartridge-bullet combination is really pretty easy.  I simply start with the maximum length that will fit in the magazine (1.280" in this case).  I then remove the barrel and drop the cartridges in the chamber with the muzzle pointing down.  I put a bit of pressure on the case head to make sure the cartridge is all the way in the chamber.  Then I turn the barrel so the muzzle is facing up.  If the cartridges fall out, then the bullets are not getting stuck in the lands and everything is good to go.  If the cartridges all don't fall out, then the bullet profile is likely touching the lands some and the OAL will have to be shortened.  That's it, pretty simple.  Most of the time the OAL that the particular cartridge-bullet combination allows in the magazine will also work in the chamber, but it seems that CZ's can be an exception to this.