Author Topic: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!  (Read 50154 times)

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Offline armoredman

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
I saw that - very double plus uncool. ATFE probably didn't think that one through on the first go round. Now I guess I might as well go through the BS of making/registering a Short Barreled Rifle per ATFE when I get it. Anyone know how one goes about that? I've never dabbled with NFA items before, don't want to run afoul of anything.

Offline Stogies

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2014, 05:57:36 AM »
I think the ATF was caught in a conundrum on this one. Since this brace was becoming wildly popular they had to either go back and change their opinion or watch the SBR regulations become mostly pointless.

Offline armoredman

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2014, 12:10:40 PM »
I have spoken to a local NFA dealer who used to work with me back in the day  - he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork to SBR the EVO, if I can get the original stock. I think he'll have to hold on to the stock until the paperwork comes back, and that is about a 9 month wait.

Offline Googe1227

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2014, 01:33:52 PM »
Wow

Offline mikec

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #94 on: December 29, 2014, 03:25:24 PM »
"he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork"...There is no minefield, its very easy, but first make sure that short barreled rifles are allowed in your state and that your local chief law enforcement official, usually the Sheriff of your county, will sign your SBR paperwork.  You need to call or stop by the Sheriff's office, and ask them if you can get Sheriff's signature for a Short Barreled Rifle application.  Secretary at the front desk will know if he signs or not.  If you don't have a clean legal record, don't bother asking.  If Sheriff does not sign for whatever reason (he may not like machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, AOWs, gun people in general), (AND you don't live in one of those "shall sign" STATES where Sheriff MUST sign as long as you have a clean legal record), then things become much more difficult.   

There are some alternate law enforcement entity signatures ATF will accept on your paperwork (such as judges, but good luck with that plan).   Many people have formed their own corporations that will "own" the NFA item, because they live in places where Sheriff will simply not sign.  There are however questions whether these kinds of corporations will be allowed in the future; ATF is currently considering the issue.   It's always best to obtain your NFA items on Form 4s, in the long run.  (BTW, if you should decide to transfer it later from your corporate ownership to yourself, you will need to go through the application process again, including a $200 transfer fee for each item).

If you are buying NFA item from out of state (rather than an individual or company within your state), you will need a local FFL dealer willing to accept the NFA item for you (for a fee).   That fee may be $50-200 or higher; new NFA buyers tend to be impatient and call frequently FFL, "Where is my approved Form?  Where is my stuff?", thus wasting lot of FFLs time; there are also issues of storage and insurance for sometimes very expensive NFA items on FFL's premises.  So find out what is the FFL's fee, so you are not unpleasantly surprised later.

Assuming that your sheriff signs and you lined up a local FFL, you will need two Form 4s (you can download them from  the ATF website), fill them out (they are duplicates), each with a recent photo attached, specifying exactly what you are getting (including serial numbers), from whom, sent to whom, their FFL numbers, reason for purchase (I can provide more info on the standard verbiage, if you want), and then the necessary sign off by the sheriff (two sets of signatures, sheriff's address and phone number).   

if you leave off any piece of information, ATF will not process your application, and it will set you back usually months of waiting.  I read somewhere that something like 40% of forms are incorrectly or incompletely filled out, even though instructions are very simple to follow.  So don't be a dummy, do it right the first time, and preferably have somebody like your FFL experienced with NFA procedures, double check your application.  Some FFLs will fill out the paperwork for you, but you still have to do lot of the work, such as obtaining photos, fingerprints, Sheriff's signatures. 

Some FFLs have been known to sit on your paperwork and not send it in for months, or ever, so you are always better off mailing off the complete package to ATF yourself.  That way, 6 or 12 months later, you will not wondering if your long processing time is due to FFL misplacing or sending your application late, or never sending it in, or if it is just your government being very very slow.

In your package you will need to send in two sets of current (within a last year) fingerprints, on fingerprint cards that have a correct routing number for NFA branch of ATF; you can order bunch of pre-printed fingerprint cards from ATF website, at no cost. 

Your police or sheriff's department can process (fingerprint) you on those cards, for a fee ($20-30).

You must include a so-called Certificate of Citizenship where you indicate that you are a USA citizen.    No notary public is required, just your signature.

Plus a $200 check to ATF for the tax stamp.    When they cash your check, you will know they have received your paperwork.  Do not use money orders, and don't waste money on overnight mail, it will not speed things up.

You can assemble it all together in less then two hours (assuming that your sheriff signs on a spot and you have fingerprint cards ready to go, completed and filled out, FFL info, for CZ-USA and your local guy), and mail it to the CORRECT current ATF address. 

Then wait 6 to 12 months for your government to "efficiently" process it (if you are lucky), longer if not lucky.  FBI will check your fingerprints against their records, which apparently takes several months, ATF will also check with the local FBI agency re: your background. 

After your FFL received the approved paper (it will be one of the two Form 4s you sent in, now with a $200 tax stamp attached), at that point you can buy and attach your Evo stock, making it SBR.

Be aware that some "out of state" purchases require two sequential transfers, meaning two sets of applications and two $200 stamps; first transfer is to your dealer in your state, the second transfer from your dealer to you.  This usually happens when you are buying NFA item from an out of state individual.    Transfers happen sequentially, so expect double the time listed above.

Out of state FFL may also have e.g. machine gun in stock on Form 3 (as opposed to Form 4), which then becomes a tax free dealer-to-dealer transfer, and you only pay the $200 transfer from your dealer to yourself.   
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:55:24 PM by mikec »

Offline gdawgs56

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #95 on: December 29, 2014, 04:21:47 PM »
Mike, Armoredman (and me, for that matter) live in the wonderful FREE state of AZ. Although It certainly feels like a minefield just because of all the confusions involved.
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Offline gdawgs56

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #96 on: December 29, 2014, 04:25:08 PM »

I have spoken to a local NFA dealer who used to work with me back in the day  - he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork to SBR the EVO, if I can get the original stock. I think he'll have to hold on to the stock until the paperwork comes back, and that is about a 9 month wait.

Who's your NFA dealer? Just thinking since we're in the same state and I might eventually want to go through with a SBR.
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MP 9mm 2.0
Glock 19

Offline RSR

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2014, 09:44:35 PM »
The biggest PITA about SBRing or any NFA weapon is that if you ever want to transport it across state lines, you have to have a letter from the ATF pre-approving that.  I grew up 3 miles from a state line and shot often in both states so that's a worse case if you're heavy on NFA items.  Now I live in a different state than family and relatively far away, so it's less of an issue (and Texas is a big state which definitely helps too).

Additionally, there's issues with who all is able to shoot it, etc...  So if you want to allow family members and/or shooting buddies to shoot your NFA weapon(s) without you being present, it's best to create a trust which can be done relatively cheaply.  And then you add all of those folks to your trust.  Also, in the event of your death, your family won't need to spend X number of dollars to transfer all of your NFA item(s) to next of kin(s).

And not sure of all the inspection stuff and whatnot, but if I remember correctly, you're also consenting to ATF searches/inspections without warrant if going through this process.  Sort of like C&R licenses I suppose -- again, my understanding; haven't seriously looked into all of this except at a high level...

Also, with SBRing -- you need to make sure you have 922r covered.  Since SBRing is legally considered the manufacture of a new weapon, 922r is required... Believe the ATF closed this loophole/gray area in 2009 or so...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 09:48:40 PM by RSR »

Offline mikec

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2014, 12:39:48 AM »
To correct some misconceptions listed above. 

Ownership of NFA items most certainly DOES NOT open you up to ANY ATF inspections.   

You can confusing it with a Curio license, where you can directly buy Title 1 curio guns (non-NFA), without going through an FFL.  You have to keep books on those purchases and ATF can and will inspect you. 

Although you have to have TRAVEL papers for machine guns, SBRs, etc. (but not suppressors, interestingly enough), before you can take them to another state, you can file for a 12 month period (for example February 5, 2015 through February 4, 2016), which means you can travel to another state over and over again during that time.  If you go to Big Sandy MG shoots, you can get papers for spring and fall events, and you can also travel to Arizona to shoot any other time as well during those 12 months.  You could file several travel papers for multiple state destinations.  Its not a big deal to get travel papers, you just list all guns you are planning to take, their serial numbers, provide a destination address in that state (but are not limited to shooting there), and there are no fees involved.  You do have submit your travel request at least 2 or 3 months ahead of time, because ATF is also slow in this area. 

5320.20 forms are here:  https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-20.pdf

Think of it as an insurance, if some cop stops you on the way and finds a trunk full of machine guns, cop does not know or understand NFA laws, ATF travel papers and Form 4s and/or call to ATF will save your day.

When you die, you can transfer (i.e. have your estate administrator) transfer all your NFA items TAX FREE to your kids or wife on Form 5s.   Kids of course have to be of legal age and pass background checks, but I do not believe they have to get Sheriff's approval signature.   Have not had a chance to try it yet  :), but Form 5 transfers are discussed on NFA forums and lawyers there say it is a simple process.

I think most knowledgeable people will strongly discourage you from forming a corporate ownership, if you can have NFA firearms on Form 4s.   Also, do you really want your shooting buddies to abuse your 10K, 20K, 30K or more expensive machine guns, when you are not there?  Who provides the ammo?  Will your buddies get damaged guns fixed for you, or find parts that are rare or sometimes unobtainable?   Functionality of open bolt guns can be dangerous for MG novice.  Some high firing rate MGs, with recoil characteristics such as Micro UZI, can be quite dangerous to a novice.  Some closed belt feds will cook off a round when you get them hot enough.  You may be liable.  Corporations have to submit copy of their paperwork to ATF, hold annual meetings, file documentation for those meetings, pay annual state taxes, etc.  LLCs have other requirements.  You will probably need a help of attorney who knows NFA and corporate laws to set things up correctly, so you don't get in trouble.   And corporate ownership is currently being reviewed by ATF, there is talk about potentially requiring Sheriff's signoff and background checks for all corporate members.   Just some food for thought before you go that route.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 01:04:34 AM by mikec »

Offline RSR

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2014, 01:04:09 AM »
Thanks for clarifying.

Offline Stogies

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2014, 05:54:59 AM »
"he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork"...There is no minefield, its very easy, but first make sure that short barreled rifles are allowed in your state and that your local chief law enforcement official, usually the Sheriff of your county, will sign your SBR paperwork.  You need to call or stop by the Sheriff's office, and ask them if you can get Sheriff's signature for a Short Barreled Rifle application.  Secretary at the front desk will know if he signs or not.  If you don't have a clean legal record, don't bother asking.  If Sheriff does not sign for whatever reason (he may not like machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, AOWs, gun people in general), (AND you don't live in one of those "shall sign" STATES where Sheriff MUST sign as long as you have a clean legal record), then things become much more difficult.   

There are some alternate law enforcement entity signatures ATF will accept on your paperwork (such as judges, but good luck with that plan).   Many people have formed their own corporations that will "own" the NFA item, because they live in places where Sheriff will simply not sign.  There are however questions whether these kinds of corporations will be allowed in the future; ATF is currently considering the issue.   It's always best to obtain your NFA items on Form 4s, in the long run.  (BTW, if you should decide to transfer it later from your corporate ownership to yourself, you will need to go through the application process again, including a $200 transfer fee for each item).

If you are buying NFA item from out of state (rather than an individual or company within your state), you will need a local FFL dealer willing to accept the NFA item for you (for a fee).   That fee may be $50-200 or higher; new NFA buyers tend to be impatient and call frequently FFL, "Where is my approved Form?  Where is my stuff?", thus wasting lot of FFLs time; there are also issues of storage and insurance for sometimes very expensive NFA items on FFL's premises.  So find out what is the FFL's fee, so you are not unpleasantly surprised later.

Assuming that your sheriff signs and you lined up a local FFL, you will need two Form 4s (you can download them from  the ATF website), fill them out (they are duplicates), each with a recent photo attached, specifying exactly what you are getting (including serial numbers), from whom, sent to whom, their FFL numbers, reason for purchase (I can provide more info on the standard verbiage, if you want), and then the necessary sign off by the sheriff (two sets of signatures, sheriff's address and phone number).   

if you leave off any piece of information, ATF will not process your application, and it will set you back usually months of waiting.  I read somewhere that something like 40% of forms are incorrectly or incompletely filled out, even though instructions are very simple to follow.  So don't be a dummy, do it right the first time, and preferably have somebody like your FFL experienced with NFA procedures, double check your application.  Some FFLs will fill out the paperwork for you, but you still have to do lot of the work, such as obtaining photos, fingerprints, Sheriff's signatures. 

Some FFLs have been known to sit on your paperwork and not send it in for months, or ever, so you are always better off mailing off the complete package to ATF yourself.  That way, 6 or 12 months later, you will not wondering if your long processing time is due to FFL misplacing or sending your application late, or never sending it in, or if it is just your government being very very slow.

In your package you will need to send in two sets of current (within a last year) fingerprints, on fingerprint cards that have a correct routing number for NFA branch of ATF; you can order bunch of pre-printed fingerprint cards from ATF website, at no cost. 

Your police or sheriff's department can process (fingerprint) you on those cards, for a fee ($20-30).

You must include a so-called Certificate of Citizenship where you indicate that you are a USA citizen.    No notary public is required, just your signature.

Plus a $200 check to ATF for the tax stamp.    When they cash your check, you will know they have received your paperwork.  Do not use money orders, and don't waste money on overnight mail, it will not speed things up.

You can assemble it all together in less then two hours (assuming that your sheriff signs on a spot and you have fingerprint cards ready to go, completed and filled out, FFL info, for CZ-USA and your local guy), and mail it to the CORRECT current ATF address. 

Then wait 6 to 12 months for your government to "efficiently" process it (if you are lucky), longer if not lucky.  FBI will check your fingerprints against their records, which apparently takes several months, ATF will also check with the local FBI agency re: your background. 

After your FFL received the approved paper (it will be one of the two Form 4s you sent in, now with a $200 tax stamp attached), at that point you can buy and attach your Evo stock, making it SBR.

Be aware that some "out of state" purchases require two sequential transfers, meaning two sets of applications and two $200 stamps; first transfer is to your dealer in your state, the second transfer from your dealer to you.  This usually happens when you are buying NFA item from an out of state individual.    Transfers happen sequentially, so expect double the time listed above.

Out of state FFL may also have e.g. machine gun in stock on Form 3 (as opposed to Form 4), which then becomes a tax free dealer-to-dealer transfer, and you only pay the $200 transfer from your dealer to yourself.

Sounds like a minefield to me.

Offline mikec

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2014, 02:35:47 PM »
No more difficult than getting a passport  :)

Offline RSR

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2014, 04:30:41 PM »
I've done some more reading on firearm trusts and essentially, they permit but don't require you to allow access to the other members... 

Trusts are like corporations but with with pretty much no ongoing compliance, etc, requirements beyond initial setups.  Corporations, LLCs, etc, all have annual reporting requirements, taxes, etc, and would not be the way to go.  But like LLCs for business, firearms trust seen to be the prudent way to go..

Firearm trusts like any other trust, primarily serve to keep all assets maintained by the trust out of probate court, avoid death taxes and the like, and also sidestep the transfer requirement -- allowing you to remove or add people as you wish...

Apparently, your local law enforcement/police would also not be notified of/have to sign off on your NFA purchases as well which helps to keep a low profile too...

Here are some of the better excerpts/reads:
Quote
There are several advantages to using an entity to purchase and hold NFA items:

? No fingerprints are required.
? No photographs are required.
? No CLEO signature is required.
? In contrast to individual ownership, multiple people may use the weapons.

Corporations, LLC?s, and non-profit corporations can all be used to obtain Title II weapons. The problem with these entities is that they all require fees with the state. You must pay an initial fee to form the entity and a yearly fee to maintain it. Further, these types of entities are designed to earn money not to hold, share, and distribute assets.

A trust does not require any fees with the state. Because trusts are primarily an estate-planning tool, they are designed to hold, share, and distribute assets. While it is true that a person could use a free trust provided by a gun shop (which clearly meets the definition of ?unauthorized practice of law?) or download one from a discount online source to obtain NFA weapons, these products do not protect a person?s family and friends adequately as the trustees are granted powers which would allow them to commit felonies in many different situations.

Second, then, a GunDocx? firearms trust is designed for one purpose and one purpose alone, owning, enjoying, and eventually distributing firearms, ammunition, and accessories. It is purpose-built and is NOT a warmed over conventional trust.

Typically, a firearms collection is the product of one spouse?s interest. The other spouse tolerates this interest, but does not care nearly as much about the items that have accumulated. Due to death or disability, the disinterested spouse or other family member may be forced to manage and/or distribute the collection. Because of the vast amount of federal and state regulations pertaining to both NFA and non-NFA weapons, a disinterested spouse may make a mistake as to the applicable laws. A violation of the applicable laws usually results in the commission of a felony.

Because a GunDocx? firearms trust is designed with this scenario in mind, there are detailed instructions to guide a trustee in handling the assets as well as an overview of applicable laws and regulations.

A GunDocx? firearms trust is also designed to allow for multiple users of the items held by the trust. This is in direct contrast to a standard/generic revocable living trust. The GunDocx? trust specifically allows for any named trustee, successor trustee, and any named beneficiary to have the ability to use the trust assets. There is even a provision that will deem any person that you are shooting with a beneficiary of the trust. The trust also allows for the formal appointment of beneficiaries for a limited duration with a set expiration date. An ?automatic beneficiary? and a ?limited duration beneficiary? have no rights for inheritance unless they are also listed as a ?remainder beneficiary.?

A GunDocx? firearms trust also has many standard trust features such as avoiding the probate process for your firearms and the public record that it would create. There is also the ability to create and update a tangible personal property memorandum which grants different people specific items of a collection.
Source: http://nwgunlawgroup.com/gun-trusts/why-a-gun-trust/

Quote
Benefits of a Gun Trust
A gun trust can avoid some of the federal transfer requirements and accomplish other goals as well:

Allow more than one person to possess and use the weapons held in trust. If you name more than one person as trustee, each trustee will have the right to possess or use the trust firearms. Otherwise, only the registered owner can possess or use NFA weapons.

Keep the gun in the trust even after the current owner?s death, avoiding the usual transfer requirements. If you create a trust and transfer firearms to it, you can arrange for the trust to stay in existence even after your death. The trustees and beneficiaries of the trust would have whatever rights you grant them in the terms of the trust. Because the firearm stays in the trust at your death, the transfer procedure is avoided. That means your inheritors don?t have to pay $200 transfer tax, file an ATF transfer form, receive permission from the local chief law enforcement officer (CLEO), and get fingerprinted and photographed.

Help the executor. The executor of your estate?the person who is responsible for gathering your assets, paying your debts, and distributing what?s left?may not be familiar with the rules about ownership and possession of NFA and other weapons. An executor could violate criminal laws by transferring a weapon without going through the proper procedure, taking or sending it to a state where it is prohibited, or giving it to a person who is legally prohibited from owning it. (The Gun Control Act makes it unlawful for certain persons to possess firearms. The law prohibits anyone who was ever convicted of a felony or of misdemeanor domestic violence, is prohibited by a restraining order from harassing an intimate partner, uses a controlled substance unlawfully, or is an illegal alien, to name just some of the restrictions.) When firearms are in a trust, the executor is not involved; the trustee is in charge. You can name a trustee who is well-versed in state and federal gun laws.

Avoid probate. Because the firearms are held by a trust, they do not need to go through probate at your death.

Avoid possible future restrictions on gun transfers. Although no such legislation has been proposed, some gun advocates fear that someday it will be illegal to leave certain firearms to inheritors or transfer them during life. They hope that holding the guns in trust will let them get around any limitations if they are enacted.

Making a Gun Trust
A gun trust is quite different from the common revocable living trust, which is used, like a will, to leave your assets at death. A simple living trust allows survivors to transfer trust assets without going through probate court, which saves time and money after your death. It generally terminates shortly after your death, when the trust assets have been distributed to the people who inherit them. Many people make simple living trusts on their own, with the help of a good plain-English book or online service.

A gun trust, on the other hand, may have multiple trustees, be intended to last for more than one generation, and must take into account state and federal weapons laws. If you want to leave guns in trust, consult a lawyer who has lots of experience with the state and federal laws that govern who can legally use and possess weapons and how they must be transferred.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/using-gun-trust-pass-firearms.html

More on why you want a qualified and honest lawyer, and not an internet form or gun dealer to create your trust: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/firearmconcierge/truth-gun-trusts-attorneys-lie-get-money/

Good brochure covering above: http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/NFA_Gun_Trust_brochure.pdf
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 04:33:50 PM by RSR »

Offline mikec

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2014, 05:29:28 PM »
Keep in mind that this is more or less ADVERTISEMENT from lawyers that are pushing this, to make money.

ATF (under directives from White House) is reexamining these trusts and corporate entities, and may issue new rules.  So if Mr. Obama has his way there will be significant new restrictions.   You may want to read some discussions about corporate ownership  and what ATF is proposing on e.g. subguns.com. 

Your NFA toys will be unknown to the local law enforcement only until you start shooting them, and then concerned citizens, annoyed hunters etc. will call the police to investigate.  We had that happen, with a forestry law enforcement guy dressed like a SWAT commando, and a two man backup from the Sheriff's department, blocking the road with their vehicles, flashing lights, as we were leaving a range in the National Forest.  Showed them our Form 4s, everybody was happy and we went on our way.  Don't forget your paperwork at home, carry copies of Form 4s.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 05:33:12 PM by mikec »

Offline RSR

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Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2014, 10:30:55 PM »
Yes these are adverts, but they cover most the high points.  For me as a small business owner, despite LLCs, anyway I can isolate my assets from both litigation and/or a taxable base is a good thing.  I think the probate factor to trusts is pretty clutch, and having a separate NFA trust to cover those special circumstance items also makes a lot of sense in my opinion.  And you only ever need to pay the NFA fees once in perpetuity provided your trust is properly setup...

I'm not a fan of lawyers, but they're a necessary evil, and used properly can legally stack the deck/set the board in your favor/best interest...  Food for thought.  Just encouraging folks to get all the facts before jumping.  For instance, standard trusts isolate your assets from everything from creditors to medicaid requirements before it'll pay for the bulk of costs for assisted or nursing home care(typically, you have to sell your home and pretty much everything first before it covers all the costs...).  Same would apply for NFA firearms in a multitude of scenarios -- without isolating these assets any court order or legal requirement relating to assets could require their liquidation if they're owned by you...  Trusts, corporations, etc, are all essentially separate "persons" as defined by law...

What Obama has proposed is essentially anyone part of any non-person entity that can access NFA firearms must undergo a background check.  Not horrible, but definitely a change from standard protocol.