The Original CZ Forum

CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: armoredman on November 24, 2014, 12:23:32 PM

Title: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 24, 2014, 12:23:32 PM
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/

NOW we're talkin'!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Grendel on November 24, 2014, 12:30:57 PM
FWIW I already moved one thread about this to the Skorpion forum. Is this different to the  VZ 61?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Alpha Sierra on November 24, 2014, 12:36:12 PM
I can't get excited about a range toy of dubious utility.

Even the Skorpion with the regular stock will not be interesting.  Pistol caliber carbines are so 90s......

Now a semi auto Bren rifle for less than $1500, yeah, you got my attention.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Raining_Brass on November 24, 2014, 12:36:50 PM
Looks like a loot of fun if you were to file for the stamp and make it an SBR.
Title: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Psyop96 on November 24, 2014, 12:44:13 PM
Yes, sir. About a half-century in design and manufacture difference but using the mostly similar model name. The "EVO" is certainly not a Curio and Relic like the Vz61. Might need to be classified separately under Pistol Club (along with the CZ 805 Bren) but then, if and when the carbine versions arrive, will they need a Long Arms club too? ;-)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 24, 2014, 12:56:30 PM
This is the first of the new generation of pistol/carbines, and the first real carbine CZ-USA has ever imported for civilian use, not including the brief flirtation with the SA vz-58 via CzechpointUSA. It's pretty groundbreaking in that they bucked the system by getting something very non-PC approved during the depth of the current Administration for importation. It alos can lead to speculation as in, is CZ-UB going to move more into the semi-auto rifle field, and where could this go?  I'm imaging a BREN 805 in 6.5 Grendel right now....so yeah, it's a little bigger than just another Skorpion. Like the video says - the only similarity is the name. Now if they'd just bring it in, in a REAL caliber, like 10mm..... :o 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Grendel on November 24, 2014, 02:54:54 PM
We could just change the name of the forum from VZ 61 to 'Skorpion'
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: heineken on November 24, 2014, 03:04:17 PM
We could just change the name of the forum from VZ 61 to 'Skorpion'

It'd still be under the C&R category, which doesn't apply for the new Scorpion.

I'd suggest a new category under the 'Pistol Clubs.'
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: jwc007 on November 24, 2014, 03:19:52 PM
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/

NOW we're talkin'!

 8)  8)  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-excited002.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-excited002.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-excited002.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

I seriously want one of those!  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-excited002.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 24, 2014, 04:03:39 PM
The only similarity is the name, Skorpion. The old .32ACP vz-61 is a C&R pistol imported by CzechpointUSA, while the EVO is an all new high tech piece of hardware from CZ-UB.  8)
Now I'm waiting for two more shoes to drop from the three legged man...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Grendel on November 24, 2014, 04:05:15 PM
We could just change the name of the forum from VZ 61 to 'Skorpion'

It'd still be under the C&R category, which doesn't apply for the new Scorpion.

I'd suggest a new category under the 'Pistol Clubs.'

We have enough categories now. We only recently pruned them down. Perhaps it could go with the VZ58 or something.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Psyop96 on November 24, 2014, 06:27:47 PM
Trust CZUB/CZUSA to make our lives more complicated and wallets lighter. You guys will figure it out :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 24, 2014, 06:41:19 PM
A BREN section in Rifles with an EVO subsection might work nice, if my wish comes true. :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: CoGT3 on November 24, 2014, 07:15:05 PM

Looks like a loot of fun if you were to file for the stamp and make it an SBR.

My first thought too.  With the relatively low price for under 1k you could have a neat little weapon.  Wonder if the stock could be imported if you obtained the stamp?   Aimpoint t1, Surefire light, 30 rounds of 147g HST would be a great indoor combo. 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: painter on November 24, 2014, 07:49:39 PM
Doesn't seem right to lump a brand new piece of pistol technology in with a cold war era rifle, or with any rifle, for the sake of housekeeping. :-\
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Christophorus on November 25, 2014, 01:21:46 AM
At less than $1000 msrp, this thing will sell faster than pancakes.

And if they keep the magazines costs pretty low, it will be real popular real fast.

Probably need a new category/section in the forum dedicated just for it. 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on November 25, 2014, 03:52:01 AM
I have wanted one of these for a long time ever since I saw the pics of the A1. Now, the big questions are where can I find one, when can I get my stamp in the queue, and what would I need to do to make it 922 compliant?

I need to find a way to get $1000 before they disappear.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Mad Macs on November 25, 2014, 04:37:33 AM
Here's a review from Colion Noir.

http://youtu.be/8XAYsYwZGxI (http://youtu.be/8XAYsYwZGxI)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on November 25, 2014, 06:06:31 AM
Looks sharp!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: K3JB on November 25, 2014, 07:03:32 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the video. I am interesting to see how the EVO develops.
Richard
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: knoxy on November 25, 2014, 02:43:29 PM
Wish they'd made it to take CZ75 mags.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Mad Macs on November 25, 2014, 03:32:23 PM
Wish they'd made it to take CZ75 mags.

Colin said the msrp on mags was less than $20 I think. VERY reasonable.

I want one.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: jameslovesjammie on November 25, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
You don't need a tax stamp.  Just put the SigTac brace on it and shoulder it like at the end of the video.  It's still a pistol. 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 25, 2014, 06:23:34 PM
So I have 2 of these EVO 3 Skorpion S1's pre-ordered through my CZ dealer.  According to him they will arrive in January, and so far there are 1000 coming in that shipment.

I do want to agree with some of the others here...  This is new firearms technology from CZ.  It does not belong relegated to the C&R, or Rifle section just for the convenience of the Administrators.  Let me remind you guys that you are providing a service, and we could just as easily move our patronage elsewhere.  As a NEW design the EVO3 sub-machine gun, and all of its variants, deserves its own section!  Sorry if that inconveniences some of you. 

As for the bashing of the pistol caliber SBR's and their faux SBR pistol cousins, some of us LIKE them.  Just like some of you LIKE shotguns, or CZ clones, or whatever.  And as to their usefulness, these firearms are a very good way to introduce recoil sensitive individuals to the shooting sports.  That's something we should ALL value, as our rights continue to fall victim to the ignorant and uninformed!  As for myself, I have no delusions of being some Top Secret Navy SEAL just because I have a Semi-auto pistol w/brace variant of a subgun, but rather I made the decision to own these as a means of getting my wife and children more involved in the shooting sports.  That I have the added bonus of a firearm in the house that my wife or older children can more accurately use to defend themselves in the event of a home invasion when I am not home is icing on the cake! 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 25, 2014, 06:28:39 PM
I can't get excited about a range toy of dubious utility.

Even the Skorpion with the regular stock will not be interesting.  Pistol caliber carbines are so 90s......

Now a semi auto Bren rifle for less than $1500, yeah, you got my attention.


I think its actually a much better option for home defense for the recoil sensitive, or straight up weak than either a handgun or shotgun would be.

As for the Bren...  I hear that the semi-auto pistol variant may be unveiled at SHOT with them coming in after April, but at an MSRP of $2,100.  That price is very much out of line with CZ's value pricing, so I doubt it will be as popular or sell as well as the EVO3.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 25, 2014, 06:29:33 PM
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/

NOW we're talkin'!

YEAH MAN!!!!  I've got two ordered through my CZ dealer!  Can't wait til January now!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 25, 2014, 06:31:36 PM
Yes, sir. About a half-century in design and manufacture difference but using the mostly similar model name. The "EVO" is certainly not a Curio and Relic like the Vz61. Might need to be classified separately under Pistol Club (along with the CZ 805 Bren) but then, if and when the carbine versions arrive, will they need a Long Arms club too? ;-)

From the looks of the field strip, I think it borrows ALOT from the H&K UMP!  Not that that's a bad thing.  If it does hopefully we will see future drop in conversions to .40S&W and .45ACP!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Ross7 on November 25, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
I like and appreciate the free service this forum provides.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: sdbaxley on November 25, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
Could you post a link to the website of your CZ dealer?  Or if that violates the rules, can you pm it to me?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 25, 2014, 11:01:33 PM
Yes, it is and always will be free. Lets keep this as civil as possible - we have the vast diversity of firearms available because if everyone liked exactly the same thing, life would be boring. :) As for a possible BREN 805 pistol or semi-auto rifle...I can dream, I can dream... ;D 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on November 26, 2014, 06:00:22 AM
You don't need a tax stamp.  Just put the SigTac brace on it and shoulder it like at the end of the video.  It's still a pistol.

Only until the ATF changes their mind, all that makes that thing legal right now is a letter. Just saying...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: jameslovesjammie on November 26, 2014, 08:54:42 AM
You don't need a tax stamp.  Just put the SigTac brace on it and shoulder it like at the end of the video.  It's still a pistol.

Only until the ATF changes their mind, all that makes that thing legal right now is a letter. Just saying...

Changing their mind would only make it illegal to shoulder it...it could still be used as a brace.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: gdawgs56 on November 26, 2014, 11:42:43 AM
ATF changed their mind about the brace on a Shotgun, not on a pistol. I don't see them changing their minds soon.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 26, 2014, 12:42:32 PM
That was because of the technical definition of a short barreled shotgun which isn't the same as a handgun. A handgun with a smooth bore that is not a muzzle-loader is a SBS under the NFA. I don't think ATFE will reverse this decision, because it addressed the main problem - the item in question is perfectly legal, how it's used is up to the user. When they reversed themselves on things, like bumpfire stocks, it wasn't because of how the device was used, but how it operated. So, no, I think the SiG brace is here to stay, but there will be opportunists who will push the envelope as hard as they can to make a quick buck - remember when the firearms industry begged Olympic Arms not to make a 7.62x39mm pistol? oly said "up yours", and put out an Ar based 7.62x39mm pistol - the next day all steel core import ammo was classified as armor piercing because there was now a pistol that could fire it, and banned from import.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: jameslovesjammie on November 26, 2014, 03:41:16 PM
ATF changed their mind about the brace on a Shotgun, not on a pistol. I don't see them changing their minds soon.

That particular instance also involved a forward grip on the shotgun, which a SBS can't have.  I you're absolutely right about the brace on a pistol.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 26, 2014, 10:56:34 PM
Me too, since I hope to someday actually own something like this, with the SiG brace or something close to it.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: gdawgs56 on November 26, 2014, 11:40:44 PM
I've been wanting a AR pistol but now that this is coming out.... I think I'll wait for it ;)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 29, 2014, 11:55:42 AM
I think someone asked, so here is who I know took pre-orders.  I got mine from Ed's Guns in Vass, NC but he sold out on Tuesday with pretty much every other CZ dealer.  KyGunCo was taking pre-orders on their website, also sold out.  I am sure Damascus was also taing pre-orders and I assume they are sold out as well.  As of 9am on Wednesday CZ had allocated all 1000 that are coming in the first shipment to dealers.  There may be a few available still or in the upcoming month, but I wouldn't count on it.  All of the ones my dealer ordered have already been spoken for and his waitlist is getting pretty long with all the other customers that want one.  I'll be sure to post pictures and an unboxing style review when I finally get mine.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on November 29, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
That's awesome...and disheartening...means I can't get one yet, unless miracles occur.

We need PICTURES and video! 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 30, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
That's awesome...and disheartening...means I can't get one yet, unless miracles occur.

We need PICTURES and video! 8)

You'll definitely get pictures and video as soon as they release it to my custody!  I'm going to call CZ tomorrow and get clarification on the SIG brace adapter, is it going to take a standard pistol buffer tube, will it be threaded so that we can use the KAK extensions or a folding stock adapter, MSRP, etc.

I read a thread on another forum yesterday that the brace adapter was going to be $100.  From the looks of the one in Noir's vid, it was just a hunk of polymer.  I really hope that's not the case, as I wanted to put a side folding adapter on and use the KAK tube extensions to get the brace to the proper length.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 30, 2014, 11:18:38 AM
It would be fantastic to see some of the CZ-USA and CZ Custom reps on here to give us all more info on this wonderful new product!!!!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on November 30, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Sorry guys, I am finding it very hard to contain my excitement.  I have been in a constant state of near bliss since Tuesday!  This is like the year I got the GI Joe Aircraft Carrier for Christmas when I was a kid!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: SMaster on December 02, 2014, 06:46:42 AM
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/ (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/)

NOW we're talkin'!

Just read this... for anyone interested.
 
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/11/25/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-making-splash/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-12-02&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/11/25/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-making-splash/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-12-02&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter)
 
 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Armor Snail on December 02, 2014, 04:02:32 PM
Just to clarify.
The smoothbore pistol would be an AOW. Not a SBS.


Also vfgs on either is fine.

Vfgs can not be used on Title I pistols though.  That would make them an AOW and need a stamp.

I want a Scorpion.
Plus two stamps.
One for a stock(and inadvertently a vfg if desired)
And one for a 9mm suppressor.

Makes the P09 suppressor ready look that much more appealing to me.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Mentch171 on December 02, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Damascus told me just yesterday they have no ETA on the Scorpion yet. They know they're coming but don't know when. I told them to put me in line for one :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Independent George on December 02, 2014, 08:04:26 PM
Damascus told me just yesterday they have no ETA on the Scorpion yet. They know they're coming but don't know when. I told them to put me in line for one :)

I assumed it would be sometime after the SHOT show.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 03, 2014, 07:42:01 PM
This thread on the VZ58 boards might be interesting to you all:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63471.0

Mrgunsngear facebook post of the initial review video in the above thread  had a dealer advertising pre-order for $500 down and $995 or something like that total. 

I try not to pay MSRP.

I will say, and mentioned in the above thread, that I hate the grip angle. It's outdated for elbows out rather than down shooting. Elbows out exposes vitals and put military/le at greater risk. 

A little more pronounced/longer/larger charging handle would be good and wish the mags had steel lips like Lancers for ARs but otherwise no major complaints. 

Looks like a great truck gun.
 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2014, 12:30:11 AM
ATF changed their mind about the brace on a Shotgun, not on a pistol. I don't see them changing their minds soon.

That particular instance also involved a forward grip on the shotgun, which a SBS can't have.  I you're absolutely right about the brace on a pistol.

The guy already had an "any other weapon" NFA class weapon, for which a foregrip is allowed.  The ATF said mounting the Sig brace to one's shoulder, not to the weapon, is what effectively changed the class from an "any other weapon" to "short barrel shotgun."  Further discussion follows.

Here's the letter in question: http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/

I read this as a gamechanger:
Quote
However, should an individual utilize the SigTac SB15 pistol staabilizing brace on the submitted sample as a shoulder stock to fire the weapon from the shoulder, this firearm would be classified as a "short-barreled shotgun" as defined in the NFA, 26 U.S.C. SS 5845(a)(1) because the brace has then been made or remade, designed or redesigned form its originally intended purpose.
The letter is now stating that using the Sig Brace as a stock is now in fact for all intents converting the firearm into a separate category NFA firearm per the ATF's view. Whether it's a shotgun or a pistol AR really shouldn't matter in how the ATF interprets the use of this accessory...
To reiterate, it's not the presence of the brace on the weapon, it's the mounting of the brace to the shoulder that resulted it in changing categories. 

My summation of the letter from what can be seen:
What it looks like in this case was that the guy had a legal Any Other Weapon, "AOW." He then asked guidance on adding the Sig Brace. The shotgun would remain an AOW with the Sig Brace installed and used as designed. But use the sig brace as a "stock" (mounting to the shoulder) on the AOW and the AOW in question would then become a Short Barrel Shotgun, "SBS", and you would be in violation of the NFA unless you had in fact registered as a SBS rather than an AOW. So again, just mounting the brace to the shoulder is in effect "converting" your weapon.
Now to what degree the $5 AOW stamp vs the $200 SBS NFA tax stamps affected is unknown... But what is known is that just the act of a mounting a weapon equipped to one's shoulder with a stabilizing brace now at least converts it to a different weapon classification in this particular case per the ATF's most recent ruling. And if previous rulings hold -- if you've ever mounted the Sig Brace to your shoulder, the weapon will forever need to maintain an SBS registration, even if you remove the Sig Brace... Not doing so, or not having a SBS registration prior to mounting to your shoulder, means your committing a felony that the ATF could document, prosecute, and result in you forever losing your ability to order firearms. (Or if you document those actions for them through phone pics or videos, or anything touched by the NSA, all they'd have to do is prosecute.)

AND, IMO this is major, it opens anyone with a sig brace on their weapon to possible charges of "intent to manufacture an illegal weapon" should the ATF decide to make your life miserable.  So if you have a shotgun "pistol" and also own a sig brace you're playing with fire.  Just like if you own an AR and M16 full auto FCG components...

And that's before we even start to worry about mission creep, etc...

More background on ATF shotgun classification:

Previously, shotguns could have barrels of less than 18" in length if they never had a buttstock attached -- b/c only if a shotgun is sold with a buttstock attached does the ATF define it as a "shotgun." Like how you register AR receivers as a pistol but once converted to or registered as a rifle you can't convert back to a pistol w/o filing paperwork with the ATF...
Here's more on the previous shotgun rulings: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
EDIT: Cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tsRTVeYUL-gJ:shockwavetechnologies.com/site/%3Fpage_id%3D88+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Quote
I get a lot of questions from customers about the ?new? ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14? barrels that aren?t considered NFA items.

Well, first off, let me say, it?s not a new ruling. It?s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them?they?re NOT shotguns! They?re simply firearms. As such, they don?t necessarily need to have 18?+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.

You see, the very definition of a ?shotgun? requires that it be ?designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder?? Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can?t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14? barrel, they can?t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren?t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT

PGO firearms that remain longer than 26? in overall length also can?t be defined as AOWs. That?s because the term ?any other weapon? (AOW) means ?any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person?? And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26?. Read the full definition of an AOW here. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20391331&SIZE=9737&TYPE=TEXT

More on the subject is available in these two letters to Len Savage?the guy who will be making a lot of these non-NFA firearms in the coming months and years:

July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf
Page 1 of third letter  http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/RedactedPg1.jpg
Page 2 of third letter http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/redactedPg2.jpg
All that said, I?m not a firearms attorney. And I?m not offering legal advice here. I am simply relating things the way I understand them. Be sure you check with all the appropriate agencies.

Now, a pistol-grip-only Mossberg 500 with a 14? barrel and the Raptor Grip installed measures 26.5? in overall length (measured parallel to the bore).

?Marty

So putting the sig brace on a less than 18" barrel shotgun with no buttstock but an overall length of at least 26" -- generally defined as a "firearm" per ATF -- is okay. But mount that Sig brace quipped firearm to you shoulder then it becomes a "shotgun" (or at least apparently per this ruling/letter).

And Black Aces (the guy the letter is too) is doing a lot of innovative shotgun stuff and likely interfaces with the ATF quite frequently on those mods, so it doesn't appear to be some yahoo just wanting to pull the fire alarm: http://www.blackacestactical.com/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2014, 12:31:04 AM
Here's the article inline:

Quote
In a letter reportedly written to a small home defense shotgun maker, the nation?s top gun control regulator says shouldering a Sig Sauer-made SB15 pistol stabilizing brace could change a firearm?s classification rendering it subject to bureaucratic and expensive National Firearms Act rules.

The Nov. 14 letter was written in response to Black Aces Tactical owner Eric Lemoine?s submission of a short-barreled shotgun design that incorporated the SB15 brace. The brace is intended to allow a shooter to fire an AR-style pistol with one hand using a Velcro strap to attach it to the arm.

The ATF letter has many AR pistol owners concerned as it could be seen as a blanket determination on illegal use of a Sig Brace, subjecting violators to years in prison and a permanent ban on firearms ownership.

?The submitted weapon, as described and depicted above ? is not a ?firearm? as defined by the NFA provided the SicTac SB15 pistol stabilizing brace is used as originally designed and not used as a shoulder stock,? wrote Acting Chief of the BATF?s Firearms Technology Branch Max Kingery. ?However, should an individual utilize the SigTac SB15 pistol stabilizing brace on the submitted sample as a shoulder stock to fire the weapon from the shoulder, this firearm would then be classified as a ?short-barreled shotgun.? ?

Black Ace Tactical owner Lemoine told Shooting Sports Retailer the ATF letter applies solely to the shotgun design submitted to the Firearms Technology Branch and doesn?t apply to uses with AR pistols.
[...]
In March, the agency made what was arguably a groundbreaking ruling on the use of the brace, saying shouldering an AR pistol with an SB15 would not change it to a short-barreled rifle that requires separate registration and a tax stamp.

?Accessories such as the Sig Stability Brace have not been classified by [ATF] as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change,? ATF wrote. ?We do not classify weapons based on how an individual uses the weapon.?

Since that March letter, the market for AR pistols has exploded, with manufacturers, retailers and shooters seeing a new opportunity to engage with shorter barreled AR-style pistols fitted with a Sig Brace without having to deal with the headache of SBR registration.

Still the ATF?s latest letter to Black Aces Tactical may be a shot across the bow at pistol makers and shooters who use the brace as a makeshift stock.

?The BATFE is in the process of reversing its position on shouldering arm braces due to a change in leadership. It might not be this moment, but it?ll be soon,? a worried shooter said on an Internet forum post about the ATF letter. ?Investing a ton of money in weapons that are only usable with ?arm braces? may not be a wise plan for the future.?

Source: http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2014/11/19/could-this-mean-the-end-of-the-sig-brace/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2014, 12:33:02 AM
And all of this is why you might want to take a look at alternatives like Thorsden's setups:

Just came across this -- looks like a great option as well:

(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-5.jpg)

(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-8.jpg)

Image source and good read: http://www.recoilweb.com/friday-night-gun-porn-compliant-ar-option-and-an-ar-pistol-43401.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHyIoxD8Y1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-JYbgigVw

Stock tube cover -- $26.99 to $36.99 (more expensive having quick detach sling connects)
Saddle adapter kit -- $18.99
Saddle -- $26.49

Should ~$80-$100 delivered.  That is cheaper than the Sig Brace...

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL.htm
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Armor Snail on December 04, 2014, 01:48:41 PM
Guy is in violation ^^^

Having a vfg on that pistol is now a AOW.  I can't believe they would publish that.

Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2014, 02:09:44 PM
Guy is in violation ^^^

Having a vfg on that pistol is now a AOW.  I can't believe they would publish that.

Not necessarily, though personally I'd want an ATF ruling in hand for my particular configuration rather than assuming.  From the article:

Quote
If you are thinking about building an AR Pistol, you first need to start with a lower that was registered to you by your FFL as ?other?. You cannot take an AR-15 that started life as a rifle and turn it into a pistol, but you can take an AR-15 lower that was registered as OTHER, build a pistol, convert it to a rifle later, then back to a pistol. Clear as mud? If you?re doubtful at all consult a legal expert in your state. We live in a time where even legislators and LEOs can be confused by poorly worded, ambiguous, sometimes contradictory laws. Make sure you know what?s legal and what?s not.

It is also my understanding that if the total length of the firearm is over 26?, then you are permitted to add a vertical grip without the need for an NFA stamp because it is not an AOW. Again, check that one out for yourself.

Here's an ATF letter regarding a 26 1/4" Tommy gun that backs up that guys position: http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf
Quote
In your letter, you state that your company's [...] pistol has an overall length of 26.3 inches and a barrel length of 10 1/2 inches.  The addition of a vertical fore grip to [the firearm in question] would result in this firearm no longer qualifying as a "handgun" or a "pistol" as explained above; however, it would not be subject to NFA/AOW classification provided its overall length is at least 26" and it is not actually concealed on the person.

NFA's definition of a SBR:
"Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."
--This is why you have to start w/ pistol lowers in the AR building of these for instance.
--And overall length federally for the ATF is with the stock fully extended, at its maximum length. 

So what the letter and ruling is saying is that if the barrel length is less than 16" and the overall length is less than 26" then it is an SBR.  If barrel length is less than 16" and overall length is more than 26" then it is a "firearm" not falling under NFA regulation.  If you conceal that pistol w/ foregrip though, then you're for all intents "converting" it to an SBR and in violation of the NFA... 
And "pistols" and/or generic/limbo "firerarms" still can't have a stock, else they become "rifles."  And rifles must have a 16+" barrel or be registered as SBRs.

Here's the ATF definition of a firearm:
Quote
Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.?
And non-NFA weapons generally fall into 5 classes:
1. Rifle, has a buttstock, needs a minimum 16" barrel length, needs a minimum overall length of at least 26", and less than 0.6" bore diameter.
2. Shotgun, has a buttstock originally installed, needs a minimum of 18" barrel length, needs a minimum of 26" overall length in its firing configuration, and needs a bore diameter of less than 1".
3. Pistol, no stock, to be fired with one hand, barrel less than 16", overall length of less than 26", and no vertical foregrips.
4. Firearm -- this is the limbo category most often forgotten/ignored -- no stock, barrel less than 16" (pistol/rifle) or 18" (shotgun), and overall length greater than 26" -- shotguns not falling into legal definitions w/o every having stocks attached and pistols with vfgs and similar prohibitions for pistols definition legally defined
5. Pyrotechnic flare guns and the like with bores over 1" but having low enough muzzle velocity to not be NFA.

EDIT: Here's another ATF letter on 26"+ OAL and VFG -- this is probably the one you want to have on your person if modding the weapon for a VFG and taking to public ranges: http://johnpierceesq.com/?p=602
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2014, 02:46:30 PM
Since NFA is boring, here are some videos of the EVO I posted in the VZ58 thread:

More evo vids:

http://youtu.be/x2AOIkSsj9k

http://youtu.be/Y90lvB3mzEI

http://youtu.be/4ByigNHoNeg

http://youtu.be/zMs1CPZvP9w

http://youtu.be/bU9TOzTPAj4

http://youtu.be/C9lpGD2hvnk

http://youtu.be/Y-gjOoufr_4

Suppressed subsonic:
http://youtu.be/8CR_5ffAsMM

Suppressed supersonic ammo:
http://youtu.be/1jfKNBOGet8
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 04, 2014, 11:44:42 PM
Well thought out and detailed explanation, thank you. However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: gdawgs56 on December 04, 2014, 11:46:15 PM

However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

Me too!!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 05, 2014, 03:12:03 AM
However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

+1
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: jwc007 on December 05, 2014, 01:38:46 PM
Well thought out and detailed explanation, thank you. However, I still am hopfeul that AFTE will stand by the definition that made the SiG Brace so popular today...especially since i want to get one soon!

+2 !  :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 05, 2014, 08:12:19 PM
I doubt that the 1000 preorders are "gone", even if already spoken for. 

When those guns arrive, those who have cash will buy them, some to make a quick turn over profit on Gunbroker, and rest of buyers won't have cash or credit after the holidays, and will drop off.

More interesting, what accessories will CZ-USA import with the gun or make available on the web store? 

Ceska Zbrojovka web store shows things like plastic clips for joining mags together, vertical foregrips, variety of Meopta optics, etc.. 

Here is a blog of one Czech who recently purchased one:  http://serzovo.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/cz-scorpion-evo3-s1/
In case you don't know how to read Czech, he complains that it took multiple months and many complaints to Ceska Zbrojovka to receive the gun after he paid for it (hopefully that means that all production is heading to USA, hehe).   His firearm came in a Styrofoam packaging instead of a fitted plastic case that was initially used.  Gun is apparently much easier to disassemble than the first Gen, or so he was told.  He found that the standard sights interfere with his Eotech unit and will have to be replaced.   It came with 2 twenty round mags, mag pouches designed for these mags, a 3 point sling, unlabeled BoreSnake, etc.   Since Czech Republic does not have SBR restrictions, his gun came with the original stock.

I think that the original EVO stock will be better functionally, and also looks much better (belongs on the gun), than some Sig brace that uses Velcro.  Just like shooting a real full auto firearm versus bumpfire or SlideFire pretenders.   SBR paperwork can be easily completed in an hour, including getting fingerprinted, if your local LEO is signing Form 4s.   The main problem will be the very long waiting time. 

I went through the same thing when DSArms imported Steyr TMP pistols.   DSArms would sell you the original stock once ATF approved your SBR application.   Now some outfit is selling exactly the same thing in the Shotgun News, no questions asked.  But potential penalties are severe, so it would be quite foolish not to go through legal hoops.   

Anybody knows what CZ-USA will be selling original stocks for? 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 05, 2014, 11:22:48 PM
I mentioned that to CZ-USA some time ago, but no idea if original stocks will be imported for SBR. I might be tempted to do it myself in the future. I know the one accessory i am certain will be offered willl be the adapter tube to fit the SiG Brace, but other than magazines, i really don't know what it is that will be offered.
be nice if it comes with a mag pouch, that would be kinda neat, too, but 30 round magazines would be a double plus.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 07, 2014, 02:33:26 AM
"The Scorpion EVO submachine gun will directly challenge the aging Mp-5s, and I think will easily unseat them."

Doubt it.  If you own or have shot subguns like HK MP-5, HK UMP, Sterling, UZI, Swedish K, etc. you quickly realize that each has its very unique personality, pluses and minuses (and easily the worst of them, IMO, is the most "modern" design, HK UMP; it looks and handles like an ungainly and oversized slab of plastic; MP-5 is much more fun to shoot).   Hopefully EVO won't be in that category, but it has to prove itself.   

And MP-5 is a subgun, with transferables available to civilians who qualify and can afford them, while EVO is a semi, and will always stay a semi, so a world of difference.

Here are some interesting comments from the Czech blog I listed yesterday:

11.6.2012 (02:35)   

Kouk?m sam? pozitiva. Nezmi?uje? ale pr?serovou rozborku. J? m?l mo?nost srovn?n? s jin?mi podobn?mi kousky a m?j pohled je trochu jin?.
 

   Ser?a napsal:   
 
 11.6.2012 (09:58)   
 
Rozborku zmi?uju, z m?ho pohledu je v?c ne? v pohod??.ale jestli jsi m?l kousek z prvn? s?rie, tak ta pr? ?la ztuha?


   Vl??a napsal:   
 
 11.6.2012 (21:18)   
 
To nemysl?m. Rozborka je p?i sta?en?m z?v?ru a sta?? jen lehce zavadit o p?ku a pokud tam zrovna n?co lov?? a m?? tam prsty, tak je to rovnou na n?v?t?vu nemocnice. Dokonce u? p?r ?raz? bylo. St?elecky se mi Evo libilo, kvalitou v?roby je to p???ern? a nedota?en?. Vedle sebe jsme m?li UMP, MP5 a Evo, tak?e jsme mohli srovn?vat.


Two points are made here - if the bolt is cocked back on the last shot, or manually, it is apparently way TOO EASY to trigger the release lever.  There have been several injuries, when people were sticking their fingers into the receiver to fish something out, like jammed cartridge.   The commentator also said that as far as shooting EVO he liked the gun, but quality of production was "terrible and unfinished".   They had UMP, MP5 and EVO to compare.

These comments were made in 2012.

CZ BREN rifles have apparently had some design and performance issues, with complaints from the Czech Army (and Czech taxpayers, since they are far more expensive than VZ-58), so lets hope that CZ has worked out all the bugs out of EVO, and it has no long term issues, like parts breaking.   

I will certainly buy one, but time will tell.











   
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 07, 2014, 05:57:11 PM
I wish I could read Czech... ;)
I will wait to see what one looks like, but it seems that this one, from the few reviews I've read and watched, is well thought out and fully functional. if I am lucky enough to acquire one, we'll see how it like the diet I will feed it.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: cntrydawwwg on December 07, 2014, 08:36:54 PM
I've already searched my couch and truck for change. Maybe by the time the second or third wave hits the U.S. I will have enough for one.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 08, 2014, 04:47:59 AM
"The Scorpion EVO submachine gun will directly challenge the aging Mp-5s, and I think will easily unseat them."

Doubt it.  If you own or have shot subguns like HK MP-5, HK UMP, Sterling, UZI, Swedish K, etc. you quickly realize that each has its very unique personality, pluses and minuses (and easily the worst of them, IMO, is the most "modern" design, HK UMP; it looks and handles like an ungainly and oversized slab of plastic; MP-5 is much more fun to shoot).   Hopefully EVO won't be in that category, but it has to prove itself.   

The HK UMP was intended to be a cheaper alternative to the MP5.  I think some MP5s came in 10mm and .40 S&W, but proved to be unreliable in that weapon system.  Hence, the introduction of the UMP after the larger caliber MP5 versions were withdrawn from the market.

Generally, the consensus on the MP5 is that it's easier to shoot and more accurate than the other sub weapons.  However, it requires more regular cleaning and maintenance to keep it running.  So ideal for law enforcement type roles, but not necessarily for a go to war/zombie apocalypse type weapon.   In that role, the Uzi, Sterling, and Swedish K all are much better options... 

Personally, I see the EVO's primary competition as the other modern polymer pistol carbines -- Keltec Sub2000, Beretta MX4 Storm, Taurus CT9 Carbine, Caracal CC10, various AR 9mms, etc. 
Size and features, the EVO looks to have it's own market niche vs those weapons...  But I look forward to seeing a detailed disassembly video to see the full extent of polymer.  Keltec has several critical metal parts embedded in polymer receiver, Beretta has several critical parts like the hammer made out of polymer, etc. 

Now, in the full auto LE configuration, time will tell, but a reliable, compact, and affordable sub gun could most definitely replace much of their current inventory...

CZ BREN rifles have apparently had some design and performance issues, with complaints from the Czech Army (and Czech taxpayers, since they are far more expensive than VZ-58), so lets hope that CZ has worked out all the bugs out of EVO, and it has no long term issues, like parts breaking.   

To my knowledge the BREN still has issues and they will never fully go away...  The BREN was intended to compete w/ the SCAR, ACR, etc, with multi caliber, quick swap barrels, and all the other military weapon acquisition by committee stuff that leads to utterly boondoggled weapons due to all the competing requirements....  See the F35 Joint Fighter program for a great case in point here. 

There's a thread over on the VZ58 boards about a monolithic rail for the VZ58.  At one time that was proposed as/for modernizing the existing weapon stocks.  But for whatever reason, they rebuilt from scratch and the BREN won over the SCAR as the Czech Military's new weapon, really only due to it being made in the Czech Republic, while the SCAR wasn't... 
But in brief, the Bren controversies are much the same as the M4 issues -- too much emphasis on accuracy/tight tolerances over reliability in the dusty/sandy conditions of Afghanistan that causes them to fail...  The M4 obviously has a bunch of other issues at play too due to the DI gas system under sustained high rates of fire...

Unfortunately, the complaints with the BREN seem to mirror a lot of other CZ-UB declining quality observations by bigger experts than me...  Unsure how much is nostalgia and how much fact but it does seem to be recurring theme...

But pistol carbines due to the relatively low pressures involved are generally very tolerant of abuse even if having some design issues/less than ideal material concessions to reduce cost of manufacture. 

Look forward to folks, and hopefully myself at MSRP or less, getting hands on the EVO giving them a fair shake.  I think they'll impress. 

As a truck gun, I think these will be great.  Wish the barrel was a little longer for home defense use (longer barrel means more blast/flash reduction).  There are other tweaks too and the lack of metal reinforcements on the mags is another major complaint.  And hopefully a pistol grip mod can be made available as well for a more vertical option...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 08, 2014, 04:48:58 AM
I wish I could read Czech... ;)
I will wait to see what one looks like, but it seems that this one, from the few reviews I've read and watched, is well thought out and fully functional. if I am lucky enough to acquire one, we'll see how it like the diet I will feed it.

Google chrome translates web pages automatically.  And copy and paste into google translate works well too.  Generally the translation is good enough to get a general idea of what's being said.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 08, 2014, 01:01:50 PM
That was a little dig to hint that perhaps translating posted content would be a nice thing, instead of making the reader search for the Translate button. ;) That's all. Also, Chrome translates pages automatically, but not content here - I'm running Chrome. Is all good.

I shot the short lived MP5/10, with two round burst. I always said 10mm was the best subgun round, wring the most out of a very potent cartridge. That was FBI issue, and a lot of fun. I have associates who swear by the MP5 as well, but I know little about them. I can tell you we DID have the semi-auto UMP carbines on the shelf when they came out, and YUCK. Absolutely nobody was impressed with them, in the civilian only model, with the Clintonized neutered magazines and restricted magwells.
I don't know enough about the BREN to really comment, but many times things that work well in the factory come into some unexpected bumps in the real world - remember how the P-07 Duty morphed into the P-07 we know now, with a lot of input from customers over real world issues.
Still really looking forward to seeing how this EVO works out. See, I HAD an UZI Model B back in the day, and the three piece non-NFA bolt made it one of the worst jammamtics I ever owned. That was the last pistol caliber carbine I ever owned...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 08, 2014, 05:33:32 PM
Cool beans.  Was just trying to be helpful.

Regarding pistol calibers, I think it's largely an argument of diminishing returns.  The only major difference is the amount of drop at range, which higher velocity rounds seem to experience less of, and whether you're looking for suppressed/subsonic capabilities or not.  Subsonic, 45 acp takes the cake IMO vs the 147 gr 9mms... 

Something like this is absolutely awesome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUALdGog4U

I'm relatively ignorant about 10mm as its overkill and I try to ensure that most firearms I purchase can be used by both me and my wife, but the higher velocity heavier pistol calibers would definitely be easier to shoot in a carbine platform.  But under full auto, I still think they'd be too much without a substantial muzzle brake.  The 10lb tommy gun for instance in 45 acp, still needs a very strong anti-muzzle rise biased muzzle brake to stay on target... Single shots/semi auto, the heavier pistol calibers make more sense IMO, especially with modern sub guns that weigh ~1/2 of what their predecessors did...

And let's not forget all the reasons why the FBI is switching to 9mm -- in brief, due to advancements in modern defensive ammunition, all common pistol calibers can meet and exceed FBI ballistics criteria, so recognizing -- accuracy and ability to get multiple shots on target quickly are what put down bad guys.
http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 08, 2014, 05:59:29 PM
I don't know enough about the BREN to really comment, but many times things that work well in the factory come into some unexpected bumps in the real world - remember how the P-07 Duty morphed into the P-07 we know now, with a lot of input from customers over real world issues.

The pistol from the former Czechslovakia I'm most interested in is out of Slovakia -- the Grand Power K100:

A pretty ingenious pistol design in my opinion -- and just released on US Markets by Century (Slovakian built, Century imported) in ~September of this year. 

Personally, I'm much more interested in this K100 than Arsenal's Strike One: http://www.arsenalfirearms.com/products/strike-pistol-system

K100 -- http://www.practicalhandgun.com/the-slovakian-grand-power-k100-9mm-service-pistol.html
Quote
The slide is manufactured from chrome-nickel molybdenum steel by Belgian supplier Fabrique Nationale Herstal. The 108mm long barrel is made of 51CrV4 steel manufactured by CZ-UB according to Grand Power?s requirements. The magazines are made inItalyby Mec-Gar, who now manufactures magazines for various firearm companies? pistols.
And there are supposed to be decocker kits coming to the US soon too -- currently, just has a safety (guessing a safety and decocker combo)...

Good review of K100: http://tacticalgunreview.com/staff-review-grand-power-duo-the-k100-mk7-and-the-p1-mk7/

http://www.classicfirearms.com/hgnp1mk7-1 (can find these around $400, just linking here for the torture test description)
Quote
Used by the Slovakia military = where there is no shortage of quality locally made sidearms from the former Czechoslovakia - Grand Power pistols were put through, and passed with flying colors, incredible torture tests that other internationally famous brands failed miserably. Such as 100,000 rounds without any changes in critical dimensions. 20,000 consecutive rounds without any feeding failures. And a silicone dust, wind chamber test (think desert sandstorm) that ground the competition to a halt - literally. Attractive, tough, comfortable to use and light weight to carry, Grand Power makes a pistol that you will be proud to own for years to come. Whether it's the full size K100 Mk7, or the compact P1 MK7,Grand Power makes a pistol that's just right for you!

http://youtu.be/ApXyvCNyw4g
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 08, 2014, 10:03:37 PM
It looks nice, but this discussion of the grand Power would far better fit in the General Discussion or Clone Club section. I wish I could understand the language - love the sound of laungaues from Russia and other Slovak countries.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 09, 2014, 06:12:43 AM
To my knowledge the BREN still has issues and they will never fully go away...  The BREN was intended to compete w/ the SCAR, ACR, etc, with multi caliber, quick swap barrels, and all the other military weapon acquisition by committee stuff that leads to utterly boondoggled weapons due to all the competing requirements....  See the F35 Joint Fighter program for a great case in point here. 

FWIW, I hadn't seen this when making the F35 comment... Modern military decision making continues to blow my mind!

Quote
The F-35 can only fly on jet fuel under a certain temperature due to a range of heating issues attributed to the F-35B variant?s short takeoff and vertical landing engine. According to the USAF, the dark-green trucks that carry that fuel absorb too much heat from the sun to keep the planes in the sky.

That presents a serious logistical problem for an advanced multi-role fleet expected to maintain U.S. air superiority in areas of potential conflict such as the Middle East and South Pacific ? areas with no shortage of sunlight.

For the time being the Air Force is addressing the issue by painting the tanker trailers of the trucks a bright reflective white to repel sunlight absorption. That presents a whole new problem for the safety of the trucks, which will be necessary to support the Joint Strike Fighter on forward deployments where large white tankers full of highly flammable fuel could make easy targets.
http://news.yahoo.com/usaf-paint-trucks-because-f-35-t-fly-033918678.html
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 10, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
http://youtu.be/8EoSbtpp1Ns
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 13, 2014, 11:44:10 AM
You certainly have all the news and info on the BREN and the EVO! 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 14, 2014, 04:07:23 AM
Now all we need to know is when CZ-USA starts shipping them to the distributors.  Obviously they are not HERE yet.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 14, 2014, 12:24:43 PM
Word is soon, very soon, as in 4 weeks or so.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on December 14, 2014, 01:49:57 PM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 14, 2014, 03:51:57 PM
You never know, you never know. ;)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on December 14, 2014, 04:09:09 PM
Yup. I am keeping my hope up.
I went ahead and ordered Meopta ZD M-RAD to go with the gun I don't have yet. LOL.
It was on sale so I had to do it.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 14, 2014, 07:18:25 PM
Where?  How much?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on December 14, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
Cabela's about $250 I think.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 16, 2014, 11:39:34 AM
FWIW, one of the major complaints regarding the Bren is the choice to go w/ "inferior" Russian optics over Western ones...

Short version from this translation -- it weights more and is larger than an aimpoint, and has a much shorter battery life...  Perhaps some other durability issues as well.

Quote
AN: Why buying unproven products Meopta when there are market-proven products? Sight Meopta is about one third larger and heavier than for example a similar sight Aimpoint company. In exactly the same function but sight Meopta works up to 100 times less time than Aimpoint sights.
TO: Accessories has been sourced in the tender, where the minimum required parameters (weight, operational deployment - stamina, rectification, and thermal shock resistance and a number of other parameters). The condition was passing the inspection and field tests. Products Meopta set parameters and tests met. The selection criteria were in compliance with the basic parameters as well as the price and weight of the weapon system
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=68088.0

Good read also: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/07/22/meopta-optics-cz-bren-805/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on December 16, 2014, 07:43:48 PM
I like variety in my collection. I have MPX on order, should have it any day now. Still, I also want EVO 3.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 17, 2014, 04:20:42 AM
ICYMI: Palmetto State Armory Just released their Pistol 9mm AR: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/12/15/palmetto-state-armory-9mm-ar15-pistol-kits/

$549 vs the "sale" price of $599 for the rifle.  I picked up the rifle upper/lower kit on black friday, sans magazine, for $499 on black friday.  To complete, you need a "multi-cal" lower, so that's plus $75 or so depending...

Haven't shot it yet, but all in, I'll probably have at least $700 in the build with Geissele G2S being the biggest part of that extra with magpul furniture being the rest...

Point being -- by comparison, the EVO is, almost certainly, is priced to sell a lot of units provided it works as advertised...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 17, 2014, 11:57:54 AM
I would have to agree - the price point is right on target to move, unlike the BREN pistol. Perhaps the rifle will be different...
The one thing I wish CZ-USA was offering is the complete setup EVO with SiG Brace and adapter installed as an option.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: doc187 on December 18, 2014, 01:54:29 PM
I preordered one.  Where do I get the sigbrace adapter?
Title: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Psyop96 on December 18, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
I would have to agree - the price point is right on target to move, unlike the BREN pistol. Perhaps the rifle will be different...

I got an idea - you guys buy up all the EVO pistols and let's all agree to refrain (restrain?) from buying the Bren pistol. That way, CZ will get the hint and drop the price, hopefully by the time the rifle is approved for sale. :D
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 19, 2014, 12:43:41 PM
There won't be any problem selling out on EVOs, that I think is pretty much assured! :) 8)

At the rumored price of the BREN pistol, I won't have any difficulty restraining myself - it's well above my bi weekly paycheck. :'(
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: CPTKILLER on December 19, 2014, 01:27:24 PM
I'm wondering if the CZ Scorpion EVO will come out in 40 S&W and be CZ reliable?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 20, 2014, 08:28:44 PM
I'd love to see it in 10mm... ;) ;D 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 21, 2014, 01:51:57 PM
I don't think this writer fully understands the ATF shotgun brace decision -- scroll back a few pages for a more nuanced, and I think accurate, discussion of the facts there...

Regardless more of the same on mounting a pistol brace to your shoulder being considered "converting" the weapon to a different class -- this time from a non-NFA to a NFA class vs the shotgun which was from one NFA class to another...

Quote
AR Pistol Braces Get Even More Confusing Following Latest ATF Letter
12/20/14

Like the recent shotgun letter, this letter seems to show that the ATF may be backtracking on their original ?intent and use? decisions. The new letter states the following [emphasis added by the ATF]:
Quote
Based on our evaluation, FTISB finds that the submitted forearm brace, when attached to a pistol is a ?firearm? subject to the GCA provisions; however, it is not a ?firearm? as defined by the NFA provided that the Blade AR Pistol Stabilizer is used as originally designed and NOT as a shoulder stock.
Of course, as everyone knows ATF letters only apply to the individual products they are referencing. However, it is an interesting datapoint that might show a general change in position from the ATF on forearm braces. I?m not trying to tell anyone what is/is not legal or trying to read the ATF?s mind, just passing along data points.
Click through for more: http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/ar-pistol-braces-get-even-more-confusing-following-latest-atf-letter/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 23, 2014, 09:17:32 PM
It could change things, certainly :-[ , but we'll see. I tend to agree that the original letter for the original product is what I would tend to depend on, ATM, but as we've seen, they can change thier collective minds.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 26, 2014, 05:34:23 PM
Just saw this today:
http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-atf-issues-new-opinion-letter-stating-that-shouldering-sig-brace-is-illegal/
Quote
BREAKING: ATF Issues New Opinion Letter Stating That Shouldering Sig Brace Could Be Illegal
DECEMBER 26 2014
[...]
However, several recent letters, including the one that just emerged in the last 24 hours, tends to show that the ATF is changing their tune on shouldering arm braces.
Here is the letter in question which was posted AR15.com earlier today (however the letter seems to be from November). Note paragraph 5 of the 2nd page:
[...]
Quote
The Sig Sauer SB-15 pistol stabilizing brace is designed so that a shooter would insert his or her forearm into the device while gripping the pistol's handgrip -- then tighten the Velcro straps for additional support and retention.  As designed, the device provides the shooter with additional support of a firearm while it is still held and operated with one hand  Consequently, a Sig SB-15 shoting brace is not designed or intended for firing a weapon from the shoulder.

Consequently, the attachment of the SB-15 to an AR-type pistol alone; would not change the classification of the pistol to an SBR.  However, if this device, un-modified or modified; is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock, thus designing or redesigning or making or remaking of a weapon design to be fired from the shoulder; this assembly would constitute the making of a "rifle" as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(7).
[...]
Further, if this device, un-modified or modified; is assembled to a pistol and used as a shoulder stock, in the designing or redesigning or making or remaking of a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder, which incorporates a barrel length of less than 16 inches; this assemble would constitute the making of a "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"; an NFA firearm as defined in 26 U.S.C., Section 5845(a)(3).
[...]
It would seem that all recent letters to the ATF are getting a similar response in regards to braces ? the ATF isn?t cool with it.
[...]
Once again, these are just opinion letters. The real test would come in a criminal court if someone was caught shouldering an AR pistol and arrested.

Click through for more: http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-atf-issues-new-opinion-letter-stating-that-shouldering-sig-brace-is-illegal/
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 29, 2014, 12:35:00 AM
I saw that - very double plus uncool. ATFE probably didn't think that one through on the first go round. Now I guess I might as well go through the BS of making/registering a Short Barreled Rifle per ATFE when I get it. Anyone know how one goes about that? I've never dabbled with NFA items before, don't want to run afoul of anything.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on December 29, 2014, 05:57:36 AM
I think the ATF was caught in a conundrum on this one. Since this brace was becoming wildly popular they had to either go back and change their opinion or watch the SBR regulations become mostly pointless.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 29, 2014, 12:10:40 PM
I have spoken to a local NFA dealer who used to work with me back in the day  - he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork to SBR the EVO, if I can get the original stock. I think he'll have to hold on to the stock until the paperwork comes back, and that is about a 9 month wait.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Googe1227 on December 29, 2014, 01:33:52 PM
Wow
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 29, 2014, 03:25:24 PM
"he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork"...There is no minefield, its very easy, but first make sure that short barreled rifles are allowed in your state and that your local chief law enforcement official, usually the Sheriff of your county, will sign your SBR paperwork.  You need to call or stop by the Sheriff's office, and ask them if you can get Sheriff's signature for a Short Barreled Rifle application.  Secretary at the front desk will know if he signs or not.  If you don't have a clean legal record, don't bother asking.  If Sheriff does not sign for whatever reason (he may not like machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, AOWs, gun people in general), (AND you don't live in one of those "shall sign" STATES where Sheriff MUST sign as long as you have a clean legal record), then things become much more difficult.   

There are some alternate law enforcement entity signatures ATF will accept on your paperwork (such as judges, but good luck with that plan).   Many people have formed their own corporations that will "own" the NFA item, because they live in places where Sheriff will simply not sign.  There are however questions whether these kinds of corporations will be allowed in the future; ATF is currently considering the issue.   It's always best to obtain your NFA items on Form 4s, in the long run.  (BTW, if you should decide to transfer it later from your corporate ownership to yourself, you will need to go through the application process again, including a $200 transfer fee for each item).

If you are buying NFA item from out of state (rather than an individual or company within your state), you will need a local FFL dealer willing to accept the NFA item for you (for a fee).   That fee may be $50-200 or higher; new NFA buyers tend to be impatient and call frequently FFL, "Where is my approved Form?  Where is my stuff?", thus wasting lot of FFLs time; there are also issues of storage and insurance for sometimes very expensive NFA items on FFL's premises.  So find out what is the FFL's fee, so you are not unpleasantly surprised later.

Assuming that your sheriff signs and you lined up a local FFL, you will need two Form 4s (you can download them from  the ATF website), fill them out (they are duplicates), each with a recent photo attached, specifying exactly what you are getting (including serial numbers), from whom, sent to whom, their FFL numbers, reason for purchase (I can provide more info on the standard verbiage, if you want), and then the necessary sign off by the sheriff (two sets of signatures, sheriff's address and phone number).   

if you leave off any piece of information, ATF will not process your application, and it will set you back usually months of waiting.  I read somewhere that something like 40% of forms are incorrectly or incompletely filled out, even though instructions are very simple to follow.  So don't be a dummy, do it right the first time, and preferably have somebody like your FFL experienced with NFA procedures, double check your application.  Some FFLs will fill out the paperwork for you, but you still have to do lot of the work, such as obtaining photos, fingerprints, Sheriff's signatures. 

Some FFLs have been known to sit on your paperwork and not send it in for months, or ever, so you are always better off mailing off the complete package to ATF yourself.  That way, 6 or 12 months later, you will not wondering if your long processing time is due to FFL misplacing or sending your application late, or never sending it in, or if it is just your government being very very slow.

In your package you will need to send in two sets of current (within a last year) fingerprints, on fingerprint cards that have a correct routing number for NFA branch of ATF; you can order bunch of pre-printed fingerprint cards from ATF website, at no cost. 

Your police or sheriff's department can process (fingerprint) you on those cards, for a fee ($20-30).

You must include a so-called Certificate of Citizenship where you indicate that you are a USA citizen.    No notary public is required, just your signature.

Plus a $200 check to ATF for the tax stamp.    When they cash your check, you will know they have received your paperwork.  Do not use money orders, and don't waste money on overnight mail, it will not speed things up.

You can assemble it all together in less then two hours (assuming that your sheriff signs on a spot and you have fingerprint cards ready to go, completed and filled out, FFL info, for CZ-USA and your local guy), and mail it to the CORRECT current ATF address. 

Then wait 6 to 12 months for your government to "efficiently" process it (if you are lucky), longer if not lucky.  FBI will check your fingerprints against their records, which apparently takes several months, ATF will also check with the local FBI agency re: your background. 

After your FFL received the approved paper (it will be one of the two Form 4s you sent in, now with a $200 tax stamp attached), at that point you can buy and attach your Evo stock, making it SBR.

Be aware that some "out of state" purchases require two sequential transfers, meaning two sets of applications and two $200 stamps; first transfer is to your dealer in your state, the second transfer from your dealer to you.  This usually happens when you are buying NFA item from an out of state individual.    Transfers happen sequentially, so expect double the time listed above.

Out of state FFL may also have e.g. machine gun in stock on Form 3 (as opposed to Form 4), which then becomes a tax free dealer-to-dealer transfer, and you only pay the $200 transfer from your dealer to yourself.   
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: gdawgs56 on December 29, 2014, 04:21:47 PM
Mike, Armoredman (and me, for that matter) live in the wonderful FREE state of AZ. Although It certainly feels like a minefield just because of all the confusions involved.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: gdawgs56 on December 29, 2014, 04:25:08 PM

I have spoken to a local NFA dealer who used to work with me back in the day  - he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork to SBR the EVO, if I can get the original stock. I think he'll have to hold on to the stock until the paperwork comes back, and that is about a 9 month wait.

Who's your NFA dealer? Just thinking since we're in the same state and I might eventually want to go through with a SBR.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 29, 2014, 09:44:35 PM
The biggest PITA about SBRing or any NFA weapon is that if you ever want to transport it across state lines, you have to have a letter from the ATF pre-approving that.  I grew up 3 miles from a state line and shot often in both states so that's a worse case if you're heavy on NFA items.  Now I live in a different state than family and relatively far away, so it's less of an issue (and Texas is a big state which definitely helps too).

Additionally, there's issues with who all is able to shoot it, etc...  So if you want to allow family members and/or shooting buddies to shoot your NFA weapon(s) without you being present, it's best to create a trust which can be done relatively cheaply.  And then you add all of those folks to your trust.  Also, in the event of your death, your family won't need to spend X number of dollars to transfer all of your NFA item(s) to next of kin(s).

And not sure of all the inspection stuff and whatnot, but if I remember correctly, you're also consenting to ATF searches/inspections without warrant if going through this process.  Sort of like C&R licenses I suppose -- again, my understanding; haven't seriously looked into all of this except at a high level...

Also, with SBRing -- you need to make sure you have 922r covered.  Since SBRing is legally considered the manufacture of a new weapon, 922r is required... Believe the ATF closed this loophole/gray area in 2009 or so...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 30, 2014, 12:39:48 AM
To correct some misconceptions listed above. 

Ownership of NFA items most certainly DOES NOT open you up to ANY ATF inspections.   

You can confusing it with a Curio license, where you can directly buy Title 1 curio guns (non-NFA), without going through an FFL.  You have to keep books on those purchases and ATF can and will inspect you. 

Although you have to have TRAVEL papers for machine guns, SBRs, etc. (but not suppressors, interestingly enough), before you can take them to another state, you can file for a 12 month period (for example February 5, 2015 through February 4, 2016), which means you can travel to another state over and over again during that time.  If you go to Big Sandy MG shoots, you can get papers for spring and fall events, and you can also travel to Arizona to shoot any other time as well during those 12 months.  You could file several travel papers for multiple state destinations.  Its not a big deal to get travel papers, you just list all guns you are planning to take, their serial numbers, provide a destination address in that state (but are not limited to shooting there), and there are no fees involved.  You do have submit your travel request at least 2 or 3 months ahead of time, because ATF is also slow in this area. 

5320.20 forms are here:  https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-20.pdf

Think of it as an insurance, if some cop stops you on the way and finds a trunk full of machine guns, cop does not know or understand NFA laws, ATF travel papers and Form 4s and/or call to ATF will save your day.

When you die, you can transfer (i.e. have your estate administrator) transfer all your NFA items TAX FREE to your kids or wife on Form 5s.   Kids of course have to be of legal age and pass background checks, but I do not believe they have to get Sheriff's approval signature.   Have not had a chance to try it yet  :), but Form 5 transfers are discussed on NFA forums and lawyers there say it is a simple process.

I think most knowledgeable people will strongly discourage you from forming a corporate ownership, if you can have NFA firearms on Form 4s.   Also, do you really want your shooting buddies to abuse your 10K, 20K, 30K or more expensive machine guns, when you are not there?  Who provides the ammo?  Will your buddies get damaged guns fixed for you, or find parts that are rare or sometimes unobtainable?   Functionality of open bolt guns can be dangerous for MG novice.  Some high firing rate MGs, with recoil characteristics such as Micro UZI, can be quite dangerous to a novice.  Some closed belt feds will cook off a round when you get them hot enough.  You may be liable.  Corporations have to submit copy of their paperwork to ATF, hold annual meetings, file documentation for those meetings, pay annual state taxes, etc.  LLCs have other requirements.  You will probably need a help of attorney who knows NFA and corporate laws to set things up correctly, so you don't get in trouble.   And corporate ownership is currently being reviewed by ATF, there is talk about potentially requiring Sheriff's signoff and background checks for all corporate members.   Just some food for thought before you go that route.


Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 30, 2014, 01:04:09 AM
Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on December 30, 2014, 05:54:59 AM
"he's going to walk me through the minefield of NFA paperwork"...There is no minefield, its very easy, but first make sure that short barreled rifles are allowed in your state and that your local chief law enforcement official, usually the Sheriff of your county, will sign your SBR paperwork.  You need to call or stop by the Sheriff's office, and ask them if you can get Sheriff's signature for a Short Barreled Rifle application.  Secretary at the front desk will know if he signs or not.  If you don't have a clean legal record, don't bother asking.  If Sheriff does not sign for whatever reason (he may not like machine guns, silencers, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, AOWs, gun people in general), (AND you don't live in one of those "shall sign" STATES where Sheriff MUST sign as long as you have a clean legal record), then things become much more difficult.   

There are some alternate law enforcement entity signatures ATF will accept on your paperwork (such as judges, but good luck with that plan).   Many people have formed their own corporations that will "own" the NFA item, because they live in places where Sheriff will simply not sign.  There are however questions whether these kinds of corporations will be allowed in the future; ATF is currently considering the issue.   It's always best to obtain your NFA items on Form 4s, in the long run.  (BTW, if you should decide to transfer it later from your corporate ownership to yourself, you will need to go through the application process again, including a $200 transfer fee for each item).

If you are buying NFA item from out of state (rather than an individual or company within your state), you will need a local FFL dealer willing to accept the NFA item for you (for a fee).   That fee may be $50-200 or higher; new NFA buyers tend to be impatient and call frequently FFL, "Where is my approved Form?  Where is my stuff?", thus wasting lot of FFLs time; there are also issues of storage and insurance for sometimes very expensive NFA items on FFL's premises.  So find out what is the FFL's fee, so you are not unpleasantly surprised later.

Assuming that your sheriff signs and you lined up a local FFL, you will need two Form 4s (you can download them from  the ATF website), fill them out (they are duplicates), each with a recent photo attached, specifying exactly what you are getting (including serial numbers), from whom, sent to whom, their FFL numbers, reason for purchase (I can provide more info on the standard verbiage, if you want), and then the necessary sign off by the sheriff (two sets of signatures, sheriff's address and phone number).   

if you leave off any piece of information, ATF will not process your application, and it will set you back usually months of waiting.  I read somewhere that something like 40% of forms are incorrectly or incompletely filled out, even though instructions are very simple to follow.  So don't be a dummy, do it right the first time, and preferably have somebody like your FFL experienced with NFA procedures, double check your application.  Some FFLs will fill out the paperwork for you, but you still have to do lot of the work, such as obtaining photos, fingerprints, Sheriff's signatures. 

Some FFLs have been known to sit on your paperwork and not send it in for months, or ever, so you are always better off mailing off the complete package to ATF yourself.  That way, 6 or 12 months later, you will not wondering if your long processing time is due to FFL misplacing or sending your application late, or never sending it in, or if it is just your government being very very slow.

In your package you will need to send in two sets of current (within a last year) fingerprints, on fingerprint cards that have a correct routing number for NFA branch of ATF; you can order bunch of pre-printed fingerprint cards from ATF website, at no cost. 

Your police or sheriff's department can process (fingerprint) you on those cards, for a fee ($20-30).

You must include a so-called Certificate of Citizenship where you indicate that you are a USA citizen.    No notary public is required, just your signature.

Plus a $200 check to ATF for the tax stamp.    When they cash your check, you will know they have received your paperwork.  Do not use money orders, and don't waste money on overnight mail, it will not speed things up.

You can assemble it all together in less then two hours (assuming that your sheriff signs on a spot and you have fingerprint cards ready to go, completed and filled out, FFL info, for CZ-USA and your local guy), and mail it to the CORRECT current ATF address. 

Then wait 6 to 12 months for your government to "efficiently" process it (if you are lucky), longer if not lucky.  FBI will check your fingerprints against their records, which apparently takes several months, ATF will also check with the local FBI agency re: your background. 

After your FFL received the approved paper (it will be one of the two Form 4s you sent in, now with a $200 tax stamp attached), at that point you can buy and attach your Evo stock, making it SBR.

Be aware that some "out of state" purchases require two sequential transfers, meaning two sets of applications and two $200 stamps; first transfer is to your dealer in your state, the second transfer from your dealer to you.  This usually happens when you are buying NFA item from an out of state individual.    Transfers happen sequentially, so expect double the time listed above.

Out of state FFL may also have e.g. machine gun in stock on Form 3 (as opposed to Form 4), which then becomes a tax free dealer-to-dealer transfer, and you only pay the $200 transfer from your dealer to yourself.

Sounds like a minefield to me.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 30, 2014, 02:35:47 PM
No more difficult than getting a passport  :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 30, 2014, 04:30:41 PM
I've done some more reading on firearm trusts and essentially, they permit but don't require you to allow access to the other members... 

Trusts are like corporations but with with pretty much no ongoing compliance, etc, requirements beyond initial setups.  Corporations, LLCs, etc, all have annual reporting requirements, taxes, etc, and would not be the way to go.  But like LLCs for business, firearms trust seen to be the prudent way to go..

Firearm trusts like any other trust, primarily serve to keep all assets maintained by the trust out of probate court, avoid death taxes and the like, and also sidestep the transfer requirement -- allowing you to remove or add people as you wish...

Apparently, your local law enforcement/police would also not be notified of/have to sign off on your NFA purchases as well which helps to keep a low profile too...

Here are some of the better excerpts/reads:
Quote
There are several advantages to using an entity to purchase and hold NFA items:

? No fingerprints are required.
? No photographs are required.
? No CLEO signature is required.
? In contrast to individual ownership, multiple people may use the weapons.

Corporations, LLC?s, and non-profit corporations can all be used to obtain Title II weapons. The problem with these entities is that they all require fees with the state. You must pay an initial fee to form the entity and a yearly fee to maintain it. Further, these types of entities are designed to earn money not to hold, share, and distribute assets.

A trust does not require any fees with the state. Because trusts are primarily an estate-planning tool, they are designed to hold, share, and distribute assets. While it is true that a person could use a free trust provided by a gun shop (which clearly meets the definition of ?unauthorized practice of law?) or download one from a discount online source to obtain NFA weapons, these products do not protect a person?s family and friends adequately as the trustees are granted powers which would allow them to commit felonies in many different situations.

Second, then, a GunDocx? firearms trust is designed for one purpose and one purpose alone, owning, enjoying, and eventually distributing firearms, ammunition, and accessories. It is purpose-built and is NOT a warmed over conventional trust.

Typically, a firearms collection is the product of one spouse?s interest. The other spouse tolerates this interest, but does not care nearly as much about the items that have accumulated. Due to death or disability, the disinterested spouse or other family member may be forced to manage and/or distribute the collection. Because of the vast amount of federal and state regulations pertaining to both NFA and non-NFA weapons, a disinterested spouse may make a mistake as to the applicable laws. A violation of the applicable laws usually results in the commission of a felony.

Because a GunDocx? firearms trust is designed with this scenario in mind, there are detailed instructions to guide a trustee in handling the assets as well as an overview of applicable laws and regulations.

A GunDocx? firearms trust is also designed to allow for multiple users of the items held by the trust. This is in direct contrast to a standard/generic revocable living trust. The GunDocx? trust specifically allows for any named trustee, successor trustee, and any named beneficiary to have the ability to use the trust assets. There is even a provision that will deem any person that you are shooting with a beneficiary of the trust. The trust also allows for the formal appointment of beneficiaries for a limited duration with a set expiration date. An ?automatic beneficiary? and a ?limited duration beneficiary? have no rights for inheritance unless they are also listed as a ?remainder beneficiary.?

A GunDocx? firearms trust also has many standard trust features such as avoiding the probate process for your firearms and the public record that it would create. There is also the ability to create and update a tangible personal property memorandum which grants different people specific items of a collection.
Source: http://nwgunlawgroup.com/gun-trusts/why-a-gun-trust/

Quote
Benefits of a Gun Trust
A gun trust can avoid some of the federal transfer requirements and accomplish other goals as well:

Allow more than one person to possess and use the weapons held in trust. If you name more than one person as trustee, each trustee will have the right to possess or use the trust firearms. Otherwise, only the registered owner can possess or use NFA weapons.

Keep the gun in the trust even after the current owner?s death, avoiding the usual transfer requirements. If you create a trust and transfer firearms to it, you can arrange for the trust to stay in existence even after your death. The trustees and beneficiaries of the trust would have whatever rights you grant them in the terms of the trust. Because the firearm stays in the trust at your death, the transfer procedure is avoided. That means your inheritors don?t have to pay $200 transfer tax, file an ATF transfer form, receive permission from the local chief law enforcement officer (CLEO), and get fingerprinted and photographed.

Help the executor. The executor of your estate?the person who is responsible for gathering your assets, paying your debts, and distributing what?s left?may not be familiar with the rules about ownership and possession of NFA and other weapons. An executor could violate criminal laws by transferring a weapon without going through the proper procedure, taking or sending it to a state where it is prohibited, or giving it to a person who is legally prohibited from owning it. (The Gun Control Act makes it unlawful for certain persons to possess firearms. The law prohibits anyone who was ever convicted of a felony or of misdemeanor domestic violence, is prohibited by a restraining order from harassing an intimate partner, uses a controlled substance unlawfully, or is an illegal alien, to name just some of the restrictions.) When firearms are in a trust, the executor is not involved; the trustee is in charge. You can name a trustee who is well-versed in state and federal gun laws.

Avoid probate. Because the firearms are held by a trust, they do not need to go through probate at your death.

Avoid possible future restrictions on gun transfers. Although no such legislation has been proposed, some gun advocates fear that someday it will be illegal to leave certain firearms to inheritors or transfer them during life. They hope that holding the guns in trust will let them get around any limitations if they are enacted.

Making a Gun Trust
A gun trust is quite different from the common revocable living trust, which is used, like a will, to leave your assets at death. A simple living trust allows survivors to transfer trust assets without going through probate court, which saves time and money after your death. It generally terminates shortly after your death, when the trust assets have been distributed to the people who inherit them. Many people make simple living trusts on their own, with the help of a good plain-English book or online service.

A gun trust, on the other hand, may have multiple trustees, be intended to last for more than one generation, and must take into account state and federal weapons laws. If you want to leave guns in trust, consult a lawyer who has lots of experience with the state and federal laws that govern who can legally use and possess weapons and how they must be transferred.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/using-gun-trust-pass-firearms.html

More on why you want a qualified and honest lawyer, and not an internet form or gun dealer to create your trust: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/firearmconcierge/truth-gun-trusts-attorneys-lie-get-money/

Good brochure covering above: http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/NFA_Gun_Trust_brochure.pdf
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 30, 2014, 05:29:28 PM
Keep in mind that this is more or less ADVERTISEMENT from lawyers that are pushing this, to make money.

ATF (under directives from White House) is reexamining these trusts and corporate entities, and may issue new rules.  So if Mr. Obama has his way there will be significant new restrictions.   You may want to read some discussions about corporate ownership  and what ATF is proposing on e.g. subguns.com. 

Your NFA toys will be unknown to the local law enforcement only until you start shooting them, and then concerned citizens, annoyed hunters etc. will call the police to investigate.  We had that happen, with a forestry law enforcement guy dressed like a SWAT commando, and a two man backup from the Sheriff's department, blocking the road with their vehicles, flashing lights, as we were leaving a range in the National Forest.  Showed them our Form 4s, everybody was happy and we went on our way.  Don't forget your paperwork at home, carry copies of Form 4s.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 30, 2014, 10:30:55 PM
Yes these are adverts, but they cover most the high points.  For me as a small business owner, despite LLCs, anyway I can isolate my assets from both litigation and/or a taxable base is a good thing.  I think the probate factor to trusts is pretty clutch, and having a separate NFA trust to cover those special circumstance items also makes a lot of sense in my opinion.  And you only ever need to pay the NFA fees once in perpetuity provided your trust is properly setup...

I'm not a fan of lawyers, but they're a necessary evil, and used properly can legally stack the deck/set the board in your favor/best interest...  Food for thought.  Just encouraging folks to get all the facts before jumping.  For instance, standard trusts isolate your assets from everything from creditors to medicaid requirements before it'll pay for the bulk of costs for assisted or nursing home care(typically, you have to sell your home and pretty much everything first before it covers all the costs...).  Same would apply for NFA firearms in a multitude of scenarios -- without isolating these assets any court order or legal requirement relating to assets could require their liquidation if they're owned by you...  Trusts, corporations, etc, are all essentially separate "persons" as defined by law...

What Obama has proposed is essentially anyone part of any non-person entity that can access NFA firearms must undergo a background check.  Not horrible, but definitely a change from standard protocol. 

Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 30, 2014, 10:49:42 PM
I may be wrong, but I think Obama and cronies also would like Sheriff's signatures added, which would be a deathspell for those using corporations, LLCs and trusts to bypass this requirement.   

I am curious how cops will react when you show them the trust paperwork, as opposed to Form 4, whether it will be within their scope of comprehension.   

Sure, trusts are important for many things, but at the same time also rigid, difficult or impossible to change, depending how they are set up.  I am a trustee for couple of trusts and its a pain, from reporting to survivors, filing tax returns, dealing with trust attorney and various financial entities.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on December 30, 2014, 11:46:20 PM
Like it was said, I live in Free AZ, so getting NFA is no problem. Heck I can carry a legally held NFA device concealed without a permit legally in AZ.
 
CZ-USA is asking ATFE directly for help on the 922(r) rule. I have been told it doesn't apply to an SBR because and SBR is NFA, not GCA, so it is outside the purview of 922(r). If I have to play the ten-or-less rule, it will play holy hob, with no domestic parts, but worst comes to worst, a single point sling will still make it a fun little gun.

NFA 34 is really becoming a pain - needs to be repealed.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on December 31, 2014, 05:06:10 AM
No more difficult than getting a passport  :)

Well, friend, you gave a 2 page explanation of the process so I think trying to say it's simple and easy is a bit of a moot argument. I think if you described the process for getting a passport even in detail it would not end up being that much text.  ;)

Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 31, 2014, 12:51:46 PM
When you read government's instructions for getting a passport or passport renewal, all the precise info you have to fill out, things that have to be done at the post office, and special issues for kids passports, lost passports, etc., it would be pretty lengthy!  NFA paperwork is easy, but I tried to point out common problems to steer clear of.  Sorry to overwhelm you with the info.    If you think it is too hard or a minefield, by all means pay somebody to do it for you.

Moving on, where is EVO?  It has been about 5 weeks since the initial post was made.  Anybody talked to CZ-USA lately?  They probably have an idea of ETA.  Have guns been shipped from Czech Republic yet?   I think they ship firearms by air, but then they may sit at US Customs for who knows how long.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 31, 2014, 02:12:58 PM
Like it was said, I live in Free AZ, so getting NFA is no problem. Heck I can carry a legally held NFA device concealed without a permit legally in AZ.
 
CZ-USA is asking ATFE directly for help on the 922(r) rule. I have been told it doesn't apply to an SBR because and SBR is NFA, not GCA, so it is outside the purview of 922(r). If I have to play the ten-or-less rule, it will play holy hob, with no domestic parts, but worst comes to worst, a single point sling will still make it a fun little gun.

NFA 34 is really becoming a pain - needs to be repealed.

Posted this over in the Bren forum, but relevant (and like any ATF letter, you can always choose to ignore ATF letters/guidance written in specific response to specific people, and if ever prosecuted, etc, then fight their rulings in court and to avoid whatever criminal violations/punishments they're seeking for you...  But that's potentially expensive and high risk...):

That's not accurate.  My understanding is that the NFA exemption only applies to full auto weapons, not semi-auto SBRs...  B/c they are either military/le/ffl or pre-ban for both full auto and non-sporting restrictions...  Here's the exact code being referenced, 922r and the sporting test:

Quote
Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. ? 922(r), specifically states the following:
Quote
It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under the?[GCA]?Section 925(d)(3).as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ?.
Also, 27 C.F.R. ? 478.39 states:
Quote
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ?.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of [?478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to be ?nonsporting.?
Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine; folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.
Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.
Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR ? 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is thus a violation of ? 922(r).
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Basically, 922r was designed to make "non-importable," "illegal" firearms "legal" by having the sum of parts at a sufficient quantity so that the ATF determined them to be of "domestic manufacture" which means these foreign-built guns no longer have to pass the "sporting" test and accordingly allows them to largely exist in their original dress/specs...

922r doesn't apply for pistols but does apply to shotguns and rifles -- yes, semi-auto, but full auto aren't importable by but a few specially licensed/permitted civilians regardless...

From the horse's mouth:
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/922r_NFA_July_2009.jpg)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on December 31, 2014, 02:21:49 PM
I may be wrong, but I think Obama and cronies also would like Sheriff's signatures added, which would be a deathspell for those using corporations, LLCs and trusts to bypass this requirement.   

I am curious how cops will react when you show them the trust paperwork, as opposed to Form 4, whether it will be within their scope of comprehension.   

Sure, trusts are important for many things, but at the same time also rigid, difficult or impossible to change, depending how they are set up.  I am a trustee for couple of trusts and its a pain, from reporting to survivors, filing tax returns, dealing with trust attorney and various financial entities.

You would need to carry both a form 4 and the trust establishment docs.  Yes, LEOs can certainly be dense at times, but like most anything regarding the interaction of "rights" and LE these days, LEOs have to be educated and be informed that you are educated about your rights as well -- polite and respectful, but direct as well...

And yes, any government document process is going to be lengthy and complicated, for instance:
Quote
New EPA Regs Issued Under Obama Are 43 Times as Long as Bible
Since President Barack Obama took office on Jan. 20, 2009, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has issued 3,120 new final regulations, equaling 27,854 pages in the Federal Register, totaling approximately 27,854,000 words.
(http://cnsnews.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large/images/EPARegs20142.jpg)
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/new-epa-regs-issued-under-obama-are-43-times-long-bible
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on December 31, 2014, 04:21:05 PM
Can we PLEASE stop talking NFA on this thread?  Can you guys that want to talk it take it to another thread?  I have 2 EVO3's pre-ordered and I am super excited to get them in hand.  Does anyone have an idea as to when they will be released to the FFLs?

As for my opinion on the NFA/ SIG brace drama....  I think there are some great gun loving patriots employed at BATFE and I think this contradictory opinion letter was put out there to force a legal challenge to the SBR category of the NFA since there are already MILLIONS of SIG style braces being used my Americans all over the nation to get around that particularly crappy law.  Look at it like this...  The number of opinion papers put out supporting the shouldering of the brace vastly outweigh this one paper that opposes it.  The courts WILL take that into consideration especially considering that the steady opinion of BATFE since the approval of these braces has been that intent by the user does not change the firearm classification.  The courts may also likely weigh the fact that BATFE has de facto eliminated the NFA restriction on SBRs by doing so and if properly challenged strike down the arbitrary regulation and taxation of SBRs.  FWIW BATFE is overwhelmed and understaffed, so this may also be a way of freeing up staff by having the courts strike down the SBR restriction.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on December 31, 2014, 04:26:59 PM
Pretty soon one will have to get a LAW DEGREE, just to exist in this society. 

Who can keep track of all the new laws that are being foisted on us constantly by our wonderful legislators and branches of government, with thousands of nameless bureacrats?

I bet even attorneys don't know 10% of the laws and cannot keep up with the flood of new restrictive regulations.

I doubt that MILLIONS of Sig braces have been sold, maybe few tens of thousands of them.    You have an interesting theory about ATF workers, but you perhaps should review some photos of who has worked at NFA branch of ATF in the past (I am not sure there is a current worker photo available).   They were doing boring paperwork provided by the government, and some (not all) apparently did it poorly (i.e. lots of complaints about lost or misplaced paperwork, and laziness; typical stereotype of a government worker).
 
Where is EVO?

Post edited for comment by armoredman
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on December 31, 2014, 09:38:41 PM
There is no arguing with that!  The number of laws and regulations have made it to where every citizen is guilty of some felony or misdemeanor by merely living life.  From what I heard the author of that latest opinion paper is both former SF and former WV State Police, I'd say that he probably really likes guns.  Just a hunch.  Most of the Agents who end up in supervisory bureaucrat positions at BATFE are also probably pretty fond of all things that go bang.  Though I will agree with you that the processing clerks are all likely Obama voters.  Even so as government employees whatever lightens their workload, right?

But again, can SHOT2015 please hurry up and get here so CZ-USA will release the bleeped EVO3's?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Stogies on January 01, 2015, 05:52:33 AM
When you read government's instructions for getting a passport or passport renewal, all the precise info you have to fill out, things that have to be done at the post office, and special issues for kids passports, lost passports, etc., it would be pretty lengthy!  NFA paperwork is easy, but I tried to point out common problems to steer clear of.  Sorry to overwhelm you with the info.    If you think it is too hard or a minefield, by all means pay somebody to do it for you.

Moving on, where is EVO?  It has been about 5 weeks since the initial post was made.  Anybody talked to CZ-USA lately?  They probably have an idea of ETA.  Have guns been shipped from Czech Republic yet?   I think they ship firearms by air, but then they may sit at US Customs for who knows how long.

No offense was intended. It's a moot point for me personally since I can neither afford the extra fees nor a new gun. Which in my humble opinion is more or less what the process was designed to do, much like the process for acquiring full auto guns.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on January 01, 2015, 07:18:12 PM
Sorry for the NFA discussions.  Subguns are the only interest I really have in full auto, and SBR interest is really only Galil SARs b/c they're freaking awesome (not so much practical/need basis) and subguns I also have an interest in SBRs as I think they're highly practical in a truck gun and home defense role in this configuration...  And if I can't mount a pistol brace to my shoulder w/o violating SBR laws, then that's a reason to wait for the rifle configuration rather than purchasing the pistol version...  Obviously this is highly gray and confused space right now...

Regardless, some have posited the average citizen commits three felonies a day...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842
http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx

The real problem however is that so many laws written by Congress and passed by the president are at a high level and basically write a blank to check to bureaucrats to fill in the specifics which actually gives them wide latitude and the ability to change them at a moment's notice -- and simply put the revised regulation into the Federal Register...
On congress deferring its legislative duties to gov't bureaucracy:
http://opportunity.heritage.org/rein-in-uncontrolled-bureaucracy/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-rise-of-the-fourth-branch-of-government/2013/05/24/c7faaad0-c2ed-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html

Specific #s:
Quote
Report: 21,000 regulations so far under Obama, 2,375 set for 2015
The pace of agencies issuing new rules and regulations has hit a record high under President Obama, whose administration?s rules have filled 468,500 pages in the Federal Register.

And, according to the Competitive Enterprise Institute, the president is poised to unleash another 2,375 new rules on American businesses without first giving Congress an up or down vote.

CEI?s Clyde Wayne Crews, vice president for policy, told Secrets Wednesday that of the top six biggest Federal Register page tallies since 2002, the Obama administration owns five. This year, he said, the Federal Register ended up printing 79,066 pages ? 78,978 when blank pages are removed.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-21000-regulations-so-far-under-obama-2375-set-for-2015/article/2558050

In the event you're a business or industry or even person not staying up on daily updates to the federal register, and specializing in a specific area of concern, you're very likely to find yourself in violation of changing regulations, which under congressionally-approved punishments for violations also puts you into a criminally negligent position up to and including felonies... 
Government, like any organization or entity, continues to grow (mission-creep) as well as become less and less efficient/effective.  Our government is clearly at this state.  Sadly, none of this is new information (Parkinson's Law: http://atomictoasters.com/2011/04/is-bureaucratic-inefficiency-inevitable/  and also Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy ) -- our elected leadership has just chosen to defer this responsibility for demanding efficiency, etc, from the bureaucracy...  Part of attempting to get this under control are various balanced-budget and zero-based budgeting proposals, primarily coming from House Republicans...  I sure hope some of these proposals are effective, b/c they are well overdue; unfortunately 9/11 and the GWoT really derailed a lot of the efforts the Bush II Administration had planned to make gov't leaner and more effective, and suspect that'll be the platform Jeb campaigns on...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 01, 2015, 11:01:04 PM
So we'll stop here with the fact that CZ-USA is looking into the NFA aspect for SBR, and that opinion issued to CZ-USA will be the official stance of this forum. I also agree - i can't wait to get a hold of an EVO in any configuration! With the single point sling it will still be fun and practical for many applications. I think it begs for a light and laser for HD use, too, but that's just me. i am really looking forward to how this works!
The last question, when will they be available - this month is what i have been told. *toes tapping, fingers drumming...*

[music] Anticipation, it's making me wait...[/music]   ;)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on January 02, 2015, 01:15:35 AM
FWIW, I want one, provided I can SBR it, or perhaps :o sig brace it!?

The SBR would make it home gun rather than a truck gun for me however just to mitigate any possible misunderstandings and suppose the same with the sig brace...
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 06, 2015, 12:57:27 PM
CZ just confirmed the first shipment is en route! 8) ;D
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 06, 2015, 02:56:07 PM
Hey, that's great news.  En route as in "loaded on airplane" and departed CR airspace?   Do they have any idea of ETA?
CZ-USA is constantly dealing with US Customs for arms imports, so I assume they may have some rough idea when the guns will arrive in Kansas.  I don't want to bug CZ-USA, and surely you asked??
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: damon1976 on January 09, 2015, 11:11:25 AM
its here........................


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462350580
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on January 09, 2015, 03:35:35 PM
its here........................


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462350580

Time to start harassing my Dealer!  I want my two pre-orders!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 10, 2015, 10:41:27 PM
I am guessing I can't get one of the first ones.... I didn't even see a listing for them anywhere.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 11, 2015, 10:05:26 PM
"http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=462350580"

Yup, 22 bids so far, up to $1250, and likely to go higher before auction closes.  That's seem like a waste of money, but somebody must have it now.   :)


Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 12, 2015, 07:31:42 PM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.

J & G just charged my cc for the price of the gun. So I hope that this means it is being shipped to me? 8)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TheLocNar on January 12, 2015, 08:54:56 PM
Whoever snagged the one at Damascus, you must have beat me by a split second. Lucky! Enjoy! :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: doc187 on January 13, 2015, 12:28:33 AM
I hope to get my pre-order from j&g soon too!!
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 13, 2015, 10:09:49 AM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.

J & G just charged my cc for the price of the gun. So I hope that this means it is being shipped to me? 8)

Yes. It will be at my FFL tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on January 13, 2015, 11:40:14 AM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.

J & G just charged my cc for the price of the gun. So I hope that this means it is being shipped to me? 8)

Yes. It will be at my FFL tomorrow.  ;D

Lucky B******!  I was one of the first person to pre-order these through my local CZ dealer the morning that Colion Noir put up his first video on them and my dealer still hasn't heard when to expect delivery.  I have him harassing CZ-USA right now.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO any information on original cz stock availability SBR ?
Post by: 123mustang on January 14, 2015, 01:28:09 PM
There are some reports about a brace for the scorpion. However, no information whatsoever on the availability of oem stock for folks wanting to sbr it.
Anyone have any information??
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 14, 2015, 07:16:19 PM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.

J & G just charged my cc for the price of the gun. So I hope that this means it is being shipped to me? 8)

Yes. It will be at my FFL tomorrow.  ;D


Got it.
Once I figure out how to post pic, I will post it in "Show us your Skorpion Evo 3's!" thread.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Googe1227 on January 14, 2015, 07:33:37 PM
I know that I am late in this game.
I called J&G Sales. They sold all 5 of their pre-order.
But the guy put my name on the waiting list just in case they have more later.
Fingers cross.

J & G just charged my cc for the price of the gun. So I hope that this means it is being shipped to me? 8)

Yes. It will be at my FFL tomorrow.  ;D


Got it.
Once I figure out how to post pic, I will post it in "Show us your Skorpion Evo 3's!" thread.
here you go:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=14704.0
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 14, 2015, 07:37:26 PM
(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8752/NFDmy8.jpg)^^^ Thanks.

Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 14, 2015, 08:57:50 PM
Are the rails metal or plastic? What is the total top rail length (#)?

Would a AFG fit on the bottom rail or will it overlap? I want a FDE version.... Now.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 15, 2015, 02:39:39 PM
My Evo is on the way from CZ Custom.   

I just called CZ-USA re: availability of 30 round mags, they expect them "soon", 30 round magazine part number is 11350.

I also inquired about the original stock option, for SBR.   CZ-USA is in the middle of 922 compliance paperwork, and "they hope" to have them, assuming the paperwork is approved.   

So there is some risk in starting the NFA SBR paperwork before this issue is clarified.   
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TheLocNar on January 15, 2015, 03:34:28 PM
Anyone plan to put a vertical foregrip on this thing? Any recommendations?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 15, 2015, 04:09:04 PM
Vertical foregrip may make it AOW weapon.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TheLocNar on January 15, 2015, 04:34:14 PM
Silly confusing laws be bleeped.

Hmmm...

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/national-firearms-act-definitions-any-other-weapon
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 15, 2015, 05:01:30 PM
Be aware that AOW examples shown on the ATF website are not complete. 

For example adding a vertical foregrip to HK SP89 pistol (similar in appearance to MP5, minus the rear stock) makes it AOW in the eyes of ATF.

http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 15, 2015, 07:56:46 PM
I JUST found out how much I am getting back from my tax refund too. Guess how much? The cost of the gun, plus transfer, plus tax stamp, plus 6 mags. Grr.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 15, 2015, 09:49:21 PM
Are the rails metal or plastic? What is the total top rail length (#)?

Would a AFG fit on the bottom rail or will it overlap? I want a FDE version.... Now.

All rails are plastic. Top rail is 11" long. AFG will fit bottom rail perfectly.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 16, 2015, 12:33:25 PM
I JUST found out how much I am getting back from my tax refund too. Guess how much? The cost of the gun, plus transfer, plus tax stamp, plus 6 mags. Grr.

Perfect. :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 16, 2015, 12:36:08 PM
I JUST found out how much I am getting back from my tax refund too. Guess how much? The cost of the gun, plus transfer, plus tax stamp, plus 6 mags. Grr.

Perfect. :)

Are there any of these left though? From the sounds of it, the first batch has been claimed already. I would jump on one right noe if I could.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TF135Sierra2Xray on January 16, 2015, 05:17:18 PM
I JUST found out how much I am getting back from my tax refund too. Guess how much? The cost of the gun, plus transfer, plus tax stamp, plus 6 mags. Grr.

Perfect. :)

Are there any of these left though? From the sounds of it, the first batch has been claimed already. I would jump on one right noe if I could.

From what I understand the first batch of 1000 currently or about to be imported are all spoken for by dealers, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have all been spoken for by customers having pre-ordered.  My LGS has been allotted 7 of them and all of them are spoken for by customers already.  I have already paid for the two that I pre-ordered from him, but I am sure like always some people will not make good on their commitment towards their pre-order, and those few will be available along with those allocated to shops and web stores  that have not accepted pre-orders.  Be vigilant.  Another forum member caught one on a website just the other day.

Good luck for all of you who were unsuccessful in getting one pre-ordered but are still looking! 
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 16, 2015, 10:01:01 PM
ATF just indicated that use of forearm braces as shoulder stocks is illegal!   Read carefully. 

OPEN LETTER ON THE REDESIGN OF ?STABILIZING BRACES?

The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from the public concerning the proper use of devices recently marketed as ?stabilizing braces.? These devices are described as ?a shooter?s aid that is designed to improve the single-handed shooting performance of buffer tube equipped pistols.? The device claims to enhance accuracy and reduce felt recoil when using an AR-style pistol.

These items are intended to improve accuracy by using the operator?s forearm to provide stable support for the AR-type pistol. ATF has previously determined that attaching the brace to a firearm does not alter the classification of the firearm or subject the firearm to National Firearms Act (NFA) control. However, this classification is based upon the use of the device as designed. When the device is redesigned for use as a shoulder stock on a handgun with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length, the firearm is properly classified as a firearm under the NFA.

The NFA, 26 USCS ? 5845, defines ?firearm,? in relevant part, as ?a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length? and ?a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.? That section defines both ?rifle? and ?shotgun? as ?a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder?.? (Emphasis added).

Pursuant to the plain language of the statute, ATF and its predecessor agency have long held that a pistol with a barrel less than 16 inches in length and an attached shoulder stock is a NFA ?firearm.? For example, inRevenue Ruling 61-45, Luger and Mauser pistols ?having a barrel of less than 16 inches in length with an attachable shoulder stock affixed? were each classified as a ?short barrel rifle?within the purview of the National Firearms Act.?

In classifying the originally submitted design, ATF considered the objective design of the item as well as the stated purpose of the item. In submitting this device for classification, the designer noted that

The intent of the buffer tube forearm brace is to facilitate one handed firing of the AR15 pistol for those with limited strength or mobility due to a handicap. It also performs the function of sufficiently padding the buffer tube in order to reduce bruising to the forearm while firing with one hand. Sliding and securing the brace onto ones forearm and latching the Velcro straps, distributes the weight of the weapon evenly and assures a snug fit. Therefore, it is no longer necessary to dangerously "muscle" this large pistol during the one handed aiming process, and recoil is dispersed significantly, resulting in more accurate shooting without compromising safety or comfort.

In the classification letter of November 26, 2012, ATF noted that a ?shooter would insert his or her forearm into the device while gripping the pistol's handgrip-then tighten the Velcro straps for additional support and retention. Thus configured, the device provides the shooter with additional support of a firearm while it is still held and operated with one hand.? When strapped to the wrist and used as designed, it is clear the device does not allow the firearm to be fired from the shoulder. Therefore, ATF concluded that, pursuant to the information provided, ?the device is not designed or intended to fire a weapon from the shoulder.? In making the classification ATF determined that the objective design characteristics of the stabilizing brace supported the stated intent.

ATF hereby confirms that if used as designed?to assist shooters in stabilizing a handgun while shooting with a single hand?the device is not considered a shoulder stock and therefore may be attached to a handgun without making a NFA firearm. However, ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding alternate uses for this device, including use as a shoulder stock. Because the NFA defines both rifle and shotgun to include any ?weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder,? any person who redesigns a stabilizing brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a handgun with a smooth bore under 18 inches in length.

The GCA does not define the term ?redesign? and therefore ATF applies the common meaning. ?Redesign? is defined as ?to alter the appearance or function of.? See e.g. Webster?s II New College Dictionary, Third Ed. (2005). This is not a novel interpretation. For example ATF has previously advised that an individual possesses a destructive device when possessing anti-personnel ammunition with an otherwise unregulated 37/38mm flare launcher. See ATF Ruling 95-3. Further, ATF has advised that even use of an unregulated flare and flare launcher as a weapon results in the making of a NFA weapon. Similarly, ATF has advised that, although otherwise unregulated, the use of certain nail guns as weapons may result in classification as an ?any other weapon.?

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither ?designed? nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a ?redesign? of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.

Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA.

If you have any questions about the issues addressed in this letter, you may contact the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division at fire_tech@atf.gov or by phone at (304) 616-4300.

Max M. Kingery
Acting Chief
Firearms Technology Criminal Branch
Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division

*This letter can also be found on http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry under the "News" tab.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 16, 2015, 10:37:07 PM
Yeah, we get it man. You have posted that letter twice now. Are you going to post it every time someone mentions arm brace?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 16, 2015, 10:38:17 PM

From what I understand the first batch of 1000 currently or about to be imported are all spoken for by dealers, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have all been spoken for by customers having pre-ordered.  My LGS has been allotted 7 of them and all of them are spoken for by customers already.  I have already paid for the two that I pre-ordered from him, but I am sure like always some people will not make good on their commitment towards their pre-order, and those few will be available along with those allocated to shops and web stores  that have not accepted pre-orders.  Be vigilant.  Another forum member caught one on a website just the other day.

Good luck for all of you who were unsuccessful in getting one pre-ordered but are still looking!

Thats fine and dandy, but besides hunting various online stores for one, whichi is a pain, how can I get one? I don't necessarily want to pay gunbroker prices and hunting would consume my entire day.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Grandmas_Boy on January 16, 2015, 10:43:45 PM
Thats fine and dandy, but besides hunting various online stores for one, whichi is a pain, how can I get one? I don't necessarily want to pay gunbroker prices and hunting would consume my entire day.

I believe you answered your own question sir?..

- You do not want to pay a premium for the ones that are readily available.
- You do not want to look for those that are not readily available.

You are not going to be taking possession of one anytime soon based upon your preferences.  I'd advise you to either wait until supply has caught up with demand, or simply place an order with your local (or online based) CZ dealer as CZ-USA has already advised folks to do who want one of these?..
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 16, 2015, 10:54:27 PM
Thats fine and dandy, but besides hunting various online stores for one, whichi is a pain, how can I get one? I don't necessarily want to pay gunbroker prices and hunting would consume my entire day.

I believe you answered your own question sir?..

- You do not want to pay a premium for the ones that are readily available.
- You do not want to look for those that are not readily available.

You are not going to be taking possession of one anytime soon based upon your preferences.  I'd advise you to either wait until supply has caught up with demand, or simply place an order with your local (or online based) CZ dealer as CZ-USA has already advised folks to do who want one of these?..

True. I will wait unless someone wants to take pity on me. I can wait and see if there are nay bugs to be worked out though I doubt there are any. These have been in production for a few years in Europe right?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 16, 2015, 11:07:22 PM
They have been in production for a while, and no, i haven't heard of any bugs with them, but that's the full auto subguns.
I have been told that there are several shipments in various places in the pipeline...we'll see how soon they get here. :)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 16, 2015, 11:14:49 PM
They have been in production for a while, and no, i haven't heard of any bugs with them, but that's the full auto subguns.
I have been told that there are several shipments in various places in the pipeline...we'll see how soon they get here. :)

If that is the case, I need to roll another 3k rounds anyways. I have a feeling when I do get one, it will be a hungry beast.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Hairlesswookiee on January 17, 2015, 12:01:38 PM
Thats fine and dandy, but besides hunting various online stores for one, whichi is a pain, how can I get one? I don't necessarily want to pay gunbroker prices and hunting would consume my entire day.

I believe you answered your own question sir?..

- You do not want to pay a premium for the ones that are readily available.
- You do not want to look for those that are not readily available.

You are not going to be taking possession of one anytime soon based upon your preferences.  I'd advise you to either wait until supply has caught up with demand, or simply place an order with your local (or online based) CZ dealer as CZ-USA has already advised folks to do who want one of these?..

True. I will wait unless someone wants to take pity on me. I can wait and see if there are nay bugs to be worked out though I doubt there are any. These have been in production for a few years in Europe right?

Sorry man, but it looks like you're going to be sitting on the sidelines for a while. I would suggest going to Kentucky Gun Co and getting on the reservation list. I did on Monday, and I guess they got a couple extras in because I was notified Tuesday they had it in stock. Needless to say I ran out to my car to place my order on my phone.

My current dilemma is which red dot to put on it. I'm thinking of a Trijicon RMR, but then I'm curious about the Meopta mini red dot that is out. I haven't heard much about them other than they're great European optics, and finding a hands on review of the mini red dot has been a pain.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 17, 2015, 12:38:35 PM
Is that the backorder list that you can put yourself on?

ETA: put an Aimpoints micro on it. Or an XPS 2-0. Or if you can't decide, sell it to me ;)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 17, 2015, 01:02:28 PM
I only have one red dot right now, which is on my vz-58. I might move it to the EVO for night time in home use. :) That's the classic Bushnell TRS-25, a bargain dot that works VERY well.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 17, 2015, 03:16:50 PM
Sorry man, but it looks like you're going to be sitting on the sidelines for a while. I would suggest going to Kentucky Gun Co and getting on the reservation list. I did on Monday, and I guess they got a couple extras in because I was notified Tuesday they had it in stock. Needless to say I ran out to my car to place my order on my phone.

My current dilemma is which red dot to put on it. I'm thinking of a Trijicon RMR, but then I'm curious about the Meopta mini red dot that is out. I haven't heard much about them other than they're great European optics, and finding a hands on review of the mini red dot has been a pain.
[/quote]

I have Meopta ZD Tactic M-RAD on mine Scorpion.
Cabela's had it on sale a few weeks ago so I bought it and I have no complain on M-RAD.
As for Scorpion, two minor complains:
1. Trigger is kind of heavy.
2. The safety on the right side is digging into my hand when shooting.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 17, 2015, 04:18:01 PM
Can you post a pic of the guts of the gun?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 17, 2015, 04:28:44 PM
Can you post a pic of the guts of the gun?

The instruction that comes with the gun only shows how to remove the trigger assembly.
I am still investigating how to remove the metal piece at the end of the gun so I can take out the bolt assembly.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: mikec on January 18, 2015, 01:50:19 AM
Have you tried online disassembly videos?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: 350zrb on January 18, 2015, 08:45:57 AM
OK. I was able to remove the bolt without removing the back.
Also, there is a set screw on the safety switch that can be easily remove.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img910/2803/Ls7HMl.jpg)
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: muggia59 on January 18, 2015, 03:12:58 PM
Love the TRS25 Mr A. Have 3 of them.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: RSR on January 19, 2015, 05:16:20 PM
PSA did have a really good sale on the TRS25s recently...  Not sure if it's still going.
EDIT, it is but the $50 w/o riser is no longer there.  With riser is $59.99 and then you just remove the riser: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-trs-25-hirise-3-moa-red-dot-optic-ar731306.html
Be aware though that PSA does take about 2 weeks to ship right now.

Also, there are two EVO offers currently on slickguns:

Kentucky Gun Co, backorder, $849.99 plus free shipping: http://www.slickguns.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-84999-free-shipping
Prepper Gun Shop, pre-order, $799.99 plus $29 shipping: http://www.slickguns.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-9mm-pistol-2-20rd-mags-pre-order-prepper-gun-shop-79999-29-sh
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 19, 2015, 10:37:03 PM
Are backorder/pre-orders now considered in stock?
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: TheLocNar on January 27, 2015, 01:06:36 PM
Are backorder/pre-orders now considered in stock?

Doubt it. Got this from Automatic Accuracy's Facebook:

Quote
We have started receiving shipments of Scorpions! As promised, we are working down the pre-order list in the order the deposits were collected. We did not receive as many Scorpions as we wanted or was promised and it appears that all dealers and distributors were affected. There simply are not enough goods to meet demand. And demand is through the roof. At a recent visit to CZ-USA I got a peek at Scorpion orders. I can't and won't divulge the numbers, but suffice to say the Scorpion is poised to become the single hottest item that CZ-USA has ever carried.

So just a quick FYI, if you plan on picking up a Scorpion at your local dealer when they come in, you are probably out of luck. The way things are going it appears that the supply is not going to meet the demand for the entire 2015 year. We here think the best thing to do is place a pre-order and sit back and wait. Stumbling onto one at your local shop probably just isn't going to happen.
Also, factory 20rd and 30rd mags will become available mid to late February. Demand on those items are also through the roof. Same for folding stocks.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: Nimdabew on January 28, 2015, 12:36:52 AM
Quote
We have started receiving shipments of Scorpions! As promised, we are working down the pre-order list in the order the deposits were collected. We did not receive as many Scorpions as we wanted or was promised and it appears that all dealers and distributors were affected. There simply are not enough goods to meet demand. And demand is through the roof. At a recent visit to CZ-USA I got a peek at Scorpion orders. I can't and won't divulge the numbers, but suffice to say the Scorpion is poised to become the single hottest item that CZ-USA has ever carried.

So just a quick FYI, if you plan on picking up a Scorpion at your local dealer when they come in, you are probably out of luck. The way things are going it appears that the supply is not going to meet the demand for the entire 2015 year. We here think the best thing to do is place a pre-order and sit back and wait. Stumbling onto one at your local shop probably just isn't going to happen.
Also, factory 20rd and 30rd mags will become available mid to late February. Demand on those items are also through the roof. Same for folding stocks.


Hmm... Well then. I will be saving $75 a month for the next year it seems.

ETA: Who am I kidding? I am going to keep my credit card at hand and if I see one, it is getting purchased.
Title: Re: Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!
Post by: armoredman on January 28, 2015, 08:34:27 PM
That's the spirit!  ;D  It got a LOT of looks and handling at SHOT, I can tell you that right up front!