Skorpion EVO pistol is HERE!

[mikec]

I may be wrong, but I think Obama and cronies also would like Sheriff's signatures added, which would be a deathspell for those using corporations, LLCs and trusts to bypass this requirement.   

I am curious how cops will react when you show them the trust paperwork, as opposed to Form 4, whether it will be within their scope of comprehension.   

Sure, trusts are important for many things, but at the same time also rigid, difficult or impossible to change, depending how they are set up.  I am a trustee for couple of trusts and its a pain, from reporting to survivors, filing tax returns, dealing with trust attorney and various financial entities.

[armoredman]

Like it was said, I live in Free AZ, so getting NFA is no problem. Heck I can carry a legally held NFA device concealed without a permit legally in AZ.
 
CZ-USA is asking ATFE directly for help on the 922(r) rule. I have been told it doesn't apply to an SBR because and SBR is NFA, not GCA, so it is outside the purview of 922(r). If I have to play the ten-or-less rule, it will play holy hob, with no domestic parts, but worst comes to worst, a single point sling will still make it a fun little gun.

NFA 34 is really becoming a pain - needs to be repealed.

[Stogies]

No more difficult than getting a passport 

Well, friend, you gave a 2 page explanation of the process so I think trying to say it's simple and easy is a bit of a moot argument. I think if you described the process for getting a passport even in detail it would not end up being that much text. 

[mikec]

When you read government's instructions for getting a passport or passport renewal, all the precise info you have to fill out, things that have to be done at the post office, and special issues for kids passports, lost passports, etc., it would be pretty lengthy!  NFA paperwork is easy, but I tried to point out common problems to steer clear of.  Sorry to overwhelm you with the info.    If you think it is too hard or a minefield, by all means pay somebody to do it for you.

Moving on, where is EVO?  It has been about 5 weeks since the initial post was made.  Anybody talked to CZ-USA lately?  They probably have an idea of ETA.  Have guns been shipped from Czech Republic yet?   I think they ship firearms by air, but then they may sit at US Customs for who knows how long.

[RSR]

Like it was said, I live in Free AZ, so getting NFA is no problem. Heck I can carry a legally held NFA device concealed without a permit legally in AZ.
 
CZ-USA is asking ATFE directly for help on the 922(r) rule. I have been told it doesn't apply to an SBR because and SBR is NFA, not GCA, so it is outside the purview of 922(r). If I have to play the ten-or-less rule, it will play holy hob, with no domestic parts, but worst comes to worst, a single point sling will still make it a fun little gun.

NFA 34 is really becoming a pain - needs to be repealed.

Posted this over in the Bren forum, but relevant (and like any ATF letter, you can always choose to ignore ATF letters/guidance written in specific response to specific people, and if ever prosecuted, etc, then fight their rulings in court and to avoid whatever criminal violations/punishments they're seeking for you...  But that's potentially expensive and high risk...):

That's not accurate.  My understanding is that the NFA exemption only applies to full auto weapons, not semi-auto SBRs...  B/c they are either military/le/ffl or pre-ban for both full auto and non-sporting restrictions...  Here's the exact code being referenced, 922r and the sporting test:

Finally, the GCA, 18 U.S.C. ? 922(r), specifically states the following:

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under the?[GCA]?Section 925(d)(3).as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ?.

Also, 27 C.F.R. ? 478.39 states:

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes ?.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions of [?478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

As a result of a 1989 study by the U.S. Treasury Department regarding the importability of certain firearms, an import ban was placed on military-style firearms. This ban included not only military-type firearms, but also extended to firearms with certain features that were considered to be ?nonsporting.?
Among such nonsporting features were the ability to accept a detachable magazine; folding/telescoping stocks; separate pistol grips; and the ability to accept a bayonet, flash suppressors, bipods, grenade launchers, and night sights.
Please note that the foreign parts kits that are sold through commercial means are usually cut up machineguns, such as Russian AK-47 types, British Sten types, etc. Generally, an acceptable semiautomatic copy of a machinegun is one that has been significantly redesigned. The receiver must be incapable of accepting the original fire-control components that are designed to permit full automatic fire. The method of operation should employ a closed-bolt firing design that incorporates an inertia-type firing pin within the bolt assembly.
Further, an acceptably redesigned semiautomatic copy of nonsporting firearm must be limited to using less than 10 of the imported parts listed in 27 CFR ? 478.39(c). Otherwise, it is considered to be assembled into a nonsporting configuration per the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3) and is thus a violation of ? 922(r).
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Basically, 922r was designed to make "non-importable," "illegal" firearms "legal" by having the sum of parts at a sufficient quantity so that the ATF determined them to be of "domestic manufacture" which means these foreign-built guns no longer have to pass the "sporting" test and accordingly allows them to largely exist in their original dress/specs...

922r doesn't apply for pistols but does apply to shotguns and rifles -- yes, semi-auto, but full auto aren't importable by but a few specially licensed/permitted civilians regardless...

From the horse's mouth:

[RSR]

I may be wrong, but I think Obama and cronies also would like Sheriff's signatures added, which would be a deathspell for those using corporations, LLCs and trusts to bypass this requirement.   

I am curious how cops will react when you show them the trust paperwork, as opposed to Form 4, whether it will be within their scope of comprehension.   

Sure, trusts are important for many things, but at the same time also rigid, difficult or impossible to change, depending how they are set up.  I am a trustee for couple of trusts and its a pain, from reporting to survivors, filing tax returns, dealing with trust attorney and various financial entities.

You would need to carry both a form 4 and the trust establishment docs.  Yes, LEOs can certainly be dense at times, but like most anything regarding the interaction of "rights" and LE these days, LEOs have to be educated and be informed that you are educated about your rights as well -- polite and respectful, but direct as well...

And yes, any government document process is going to be lengthy and complicated, for instance:

New EPA Regs Issued Under Obama Are 43 Times as Long as Bible
Since President Barack Obama took office on Jan. 20, 2009, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has issued 3,120 new final regulations, equaling 27,854 pages in the Federal Register, totaling approximately 27,854,000 words.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/new-epa-regs-issued-under-obama-are-43-times-long-bible

[TF135Sierra2Xray]

Can we PLEASE stop talking NFA on this thread?  Can you guys that want to talk it take it to another thread?  I have 2 EVO3's pre-ordered and I am super excited to get them in hand.  Does anyone have an idea as to when they will be released to the FFLs?

As for my opinion on the NFA/ SIG brace drama....  I think there are some great gun loving patriots employed at BATFE and I think this contradictory opinion letter was put out there to force a legal challenge to the SBR category of the NFA since there are already MILLIONS of SIG style braces being used my Americans all over the nation to get around that particularly crappy law.  Look at it like this...  The number of opinion papers put out supporting the shouldering of the brace vastly outweigh this one paper that opposes it.  The courts WILL take that into consideration especially considering that the steady opinion of BATFE since the approval of these braces has been that intent by the user does not change the firearm classification.  The courts may also likely weigh the fact that BATFE has de facto eliminated the NFA restriction on SBRs by doing so and if properly challenged strike down the arbitrary regulation and taxation of SBRs.  FWIW BATFE is overwhelmed and understaffed, so this may also be a way of freeing up staff by having the courts strike down the SBR restriction.

[mikec]

Pretty soon one will have to get a LAW DEGREE, just to exist in this society. 

Who can keep track of all the new laws that are being foisted on us constantly by our wonderful legislators and branches of government, with thousands of nameless bureacrats?

I bet even attorneys don't know 10% of the laws and cannot keep up with the flood of new restrictive regulations.

I doubt that MILLIONS of Sig braces have been sold, maybe few tens of thousands of them.    You have an interesting theory about ATF workers, but you perhaps should review some photos of who has worked at NFA branch of ATF in the past (I am not sure there is a current worker photo available).   They were doing boring paperwork provided by the government, and some (not all) apparently did it poorly (i.e. lots of complaints about lost or misplaced paperwork, and laziness; typical stereotype of a government worker).
 
Where is EVO?

Post edited for comment by armoredman

[TF135Sierra2Xray]

There is no arguing with that!  The number of laws and regulations have made it to where every citizen is guilty of some felony or misdemeanor by merely living life.  From what I heard the author of that latest opinion paper is both former SF and former WV State Police, I'd say that he probably really likes guns.  Just a hunch.  Most of the Agents who end up in supervisory bureaucrat positions at BATFE are also probably pretty fond of all things that go bang.  Though I will agree with you that the processing clerks are all likely Obama voters.  Even so as government employees whatever lightens their workload, right?

But again, can SHOT2015 please hurry up and get here so CZ-USA will release the bleeped EVO3's?

[Stogies]

When you read government's instructions for getting a passport or passport renewal, all the precise info you have to fill out, things that have to be done at the post office, and special issues for kids passports, lost passports, etc., it would be pretty lengthy!  NFA paperwork is easy, but I tried to point out common problems to steer clear of.  Sorry to overwhelm you with the info.    If you think it is too hard or a minefield, by all means pay somebody to do it for you.

Moving on, where is EVO?  It has been about 5 weeks since the initial post was made.  Anybody talked to CZ-USA lately?  They probably have an idea of ETA.  Have guns been shipped from Czech Republic yet?   I think they ship firearms by air, but then they may sit at US Customs for who knows how long.

No offense was intended. It's a moot point for me personally since I can neither afford the extra fees nor a new gun. Which in my humble opinion is more or less what the process was designed to do, much like the process for acquiring full auto guns.

[RSR]

Sorry for the NFA discussions.  Subguns are the only interest I really have in full auto, and SBR interest is really only Galil SARs b/c they're freaking awesome (not so much practical/need basis) and subguns I also have an interest in SBRs as I think they're highly practical in a truck gun and home defense role in this configuration...  And if I can't mount a pistol brace to my shoulder w/o violating SBR laws, then that's a reason to wait for the rifle configuration rather than purchasing the pistol version...  Obviously this is highly gray and confused space right now...

Regardless, some have posited the average citizen commits three felonies a day...
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842
http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx

The real problem however is that so many laws written by Congress and passed by the president are at a high level and basically write a blank to check to bureaucrats to fill in the specifics which actually gives them wide latitude and the ability to change them at a moment's notice -- and simply put the revised regulation into the Federal Register...
On congress deferring its legislative duties to gov't bureaucracy:
http://opportunity.heritage.org/rein-in-uncontrolled-bureaucracy/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-rise-of-the-fourth-branch-of-government/2013/05/24/c7faaad0-c2ed-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html

Specific #s:

Report: 21,000 regulations so far under Obama, 2,375 set for 2015
The pace of agencies issuing new rules and regulations has hit a record high under President Obama, whose administration?s rules have filled 468,500 pages in the Federal Register.

And, according to the Competitive Enterprise Institute, the president is poised to unleash another 2,375 new rules on American businesses without first giving Congress an up or down vote.

CEI?s Clyde Wayne Crews, vice president for policy, told Secrets Wednesday that of the top six biggest Federal Register page tallies since 2002, the Obama administration owns five. This year, he said, the Federal Register ended up printing 79,066 pages ? 78,978 when blank pages are removed.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-21000-regulations-so-far-under-obama-2375-set-for-2015/article/2558050

In the event you're a business or industry or even person not staying up on daily updates to the federal register, and specializing in a specific area of concern, you're very likely to find yourself in violation of changing regulations, which under congressionally-approved punishments for violations also puts you into a criminally negligent position up to and including felonies... 
Government, like any organization or entity, continues to grow (mission-creep) as well as become less and less efficient/effective.  Our government is clearly at this state.  Sadly, none of this is new information (Parkinson's Law: http://atomictoasters.com/2011/04/is-bureaucratic-inefficiency-inevitable/  and also Robert Michels Iron Law of Oligarchy ) -- our elected leadership has just chosen to defer this responsibility for demanding efficiency, etc, from the bureaucracy...  Part of attempting to get this under control are various balanced-budget and zero-based budgeting proposals, primarily coming from House Republicans...  I sure hope some of these proposals are effective, b/c they are well overdue; unfortunately 9/11 and the GWoT really derailed a lot of the efforts the Bush II Administration had planned to make gov't leaner and more effective, and suspect that'll be the platform Jeb campaigns on...

[armoredman]

So we'll stop here with the fact that CZ-USA is looking into the NFA aspect for SBR, and that opinion issued to CZ-USA will be the official stance of this forum. I also agree - i can't wait to get a hold of an EVO in any configuration! With the single point sling it will still be fun and practical for many applications. I think it begs for a light and laser for HD use, too, but that's just me. i am really looking forward to how this works!
The last question, when will they be available - this month is what i have been told. *toes tapping, fingers drumming...*

[music] Anticipation, it's making me wait...[/music]   

[RSR]

FWIW, I want one, provided I can SBR it, or perhaps sig brace it!?

The SBR would make it home gun rather than a truck gun for me however just to mitigate any possible misunderstandings and suppose the same with the sig brace...

[armoredman]

CZ just confirmed the first shipment is en route!

[mikec]

Hey, that's great news.  En route as in "loaded on airplane" and departed CR airspace?   Do they have any idea of ETA?
CZ-USA is constantly dealing with US Customs for arms imports, so I assume they may have some rough idea when the guns will arrive in Kansas.  I don't want to bug CZ-USA, and surely you asked??