Author Topic: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary  (Read 16361 times)

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Offline sberres

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2018, 08:37:50 AM »
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.
Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency.
SB

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.
That greenish undercoat is phosphate, it has to be completely removed before bluing. I leave it alone on the inside of the gun, that way I don't have to worry about bluing inside.

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Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2018, 09:04:21 AM »
How about a fairly soft wire end brush in a drill?  Could reach some of those ribs, ridges, and lines more easily than your fingernail?
 I'm working on as well.  It's got a rather odd greenish coat under the original enamel. In areas you can see the bare metal under it so it definitely looks more like a precoat, base layer rather than park. The stripper didn't touch it.
  There's enough nicks, dings, irregularities present that I'm going to sand it all down anyway. But I'll also bead blast it entirely and then resand the frame flats for bluing.
  Looks like you're doing great so far!  Bear in mind that last bit of advice about the bluing process and wearing gloves at every handling step. I'd also like to add that after the first rust application, if you see an area that seems to be pitted or that didn't get prepped quite as well as you'd thought. STOP!  Fix it, resand that spot, and then carry on. Sometimes the shine hides defects you've worked very hard to clean up. Rust bluing won't cover anything. It'll only accentuate what is there.

You know what. I have a dremel tool with a soft wire brush. I'll toss it in some acetone and hit it lightly. Good idea.
Finished up pretty late and probably wasn't considering all options.

Offline sberres

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2018, 09:31:47 AM »
I wouldn't have thought a phosphate coating to look like a distinct layer. In some places it almost seems to sort of chipped and other places more scratched through. Like a poor plating.  Definitely anti-corrosive to a degree, and it is most certainly coming off.  I actually got sidetracked by this thread in going to ask that exact question!
  Is it sensitive to rust removers?  Any one type more than others, such as phosphoric acid that is found in some types vs muriatic found in others?  It really doesn't sand off too badly, either, and it'll probably bead blast as well. The last project I did turned out well but there was none of this remaining. That thing had no finish whatsoever apart from the badly browned, dinged, and pitted, well, all over.  One of these days I'll have to figure how to post pictures. 
  As noted by the OP, this is no ticket to a bargain bin super gun. We do it for the love of it and the CZ is a good, solid platform to start with that has enough parts support (both OEM and aftermarket) to make something special out of it. It's worth far more to me being something that is uniquely my own than I could ever recoup in a sale.
Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency.
SB

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2018, 09:42:54 AM »
I wouldn't have thought a phosphate coating to look like a distinct layer. In some places it almost seems to sort of chipped and other places more scratched through. Like a poor plating.  Definitely anti-corrosive to a degree, and it is most certainly coming off.  I actually got sidetracked by this thread in going to ask that exact question!
  Is it sensitive to rust removers?  Any one type more than others, such as phosphoric acid that is found in some types vs muriatic found in others?  It really doesn't sand off too badly, either, and it'll probably bead blast as well. The last project I did turned out well but there was none of this remaining. That thing had no finish whatsoever apart from the badly browned, dinged, and pitted, well, all over.  One of these days I'll have to figure how to post pictures. 
  As noted by the OP, this is no ticket to a bargain bin super gun. We do it for the love of it and the CZ is a good, solid platform to start with that has enough parts support (both OEM and aftermarket) to make something special out of it. It's worth far more to me being something that is uniquely my own than I could ever recoup in a sale.
I use it as a sort of guide coat when sanding. The only places I use chemicals to remove it are the slide serrations, top rib, roll marks etc. I've used Birchwood blue remover gel and gotten it done, but I've since switched to Evaporust. Sometimes I miss some, but the first rust cycle shows me quickly if it needs more attention.

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Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2018, 01:13:15 PM »
Things are getting exciting now.

I hit the ribs and serrations with a stainless wire brush. I think it's ok.

I decided that I've probably put enough into the parts and now they deserve to be blued.
So they sit in an acetone bath right now, strung up with wire.
I went out and bought 1 gallon of Poland Springs distilled water. My electric burner arrived and so did my dedicated 5 quart bluing pot.

Game on.

Gloves only from here on in.

I'll be attempting my first blue tonight after my family goes to bed.

A few last minute questions:

1. Do I re-use the distilled water in the pot for every boiling or do I need to use new distilled water every time?
2. Confirming that I'm going to be applying the bluing agent to everything except the firing pin channel
3. There will be some really hard to reach areas. Am I expecting to spent significant time carding with steel wool?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 01:17:06 PM by Underwhere »

Offline sberres

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2018, 03:29:09 PM »
  Ok, I'm sure there are others with more experience with rust bluing than I and I hope they weigh in as much for your benefit as my own. When I did this I couldn't find an answer to the water question so I used a fresh pot at every cycle. At only about 1/2 gal each time this was the least of the costs involved.
  About the most consistent and detailed information available for rust bluing was from this site and one called, Finishing.com. There is an older thread there that had some good info.
  I believe SP01Shadow had commented to not worry about the frame innards as they would be difficult to card well anyhow. I found that carding took about 10 -20 minutes and that I could boil, card, reapply before going to work and then again when I got home. This was last fall in the upper Midwest so slightly cooler temps and lower humidity. Those variables will be key to rust bloom development.
  I used degreased 0000 steel wool and a degreased small ss brush. Places I couldn't get to didn't worry me. It really doesn't take much friction to knock off the loose velvet layer and as you progress it will become less prominent.
  The final steps become a little bit hazy with mixed comments, but it made sense to me to do an additional boil with some baking soda to ensure that all residual acid was neutralized and then make sure the parts were dried well. I kept a heat gun there that was used to dry, to preheat, etc... throughout the process.   Then soak well in lots of WD40 to make sure the water is thoroughly displaced. After that the parts were warmed and generously rubbed and soaked with boiled linseed oil for day. Finally, wipe down the excess and treat with your favorite gun oil. You'll find some variations to this but it amounts to dewatering and then doing sort of a "curing" that lets an oil with some retentive properties access to the pore structure.
  Looking forward to seeking your results!
Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency.
SB

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2018, 03:29:20 PM »
Things are getting exciting now.

I hit the ribs and serrations with a stainless wire brush. I think it's ok.

I decided that I've probably put enough into the parts and now they deserve to be blued.
So they sit in an acetone bath right now, strung up with wire.
I went out and bought 1 gallon of Poland Springs distilled water. My electric burner arrived and so did my dedicated 5 quart bluing pot.

Game on.

Gloves only from here on in.

I'll be attempting my first blue tonight after my family goes to bed.

A few last minute questions:

1. Do I re-use the distilled water in the pot for every boiling or do I need to use new distilled water every time?
2. Confirming that I'm going to be applying the bluing agent to everything except the firing pin channel
3. There will be some really hard to reach areas. Am I expecting to spent significant time carding with steel wool?
Only use enough water to cover your parts when boiling, a hot plate won't boil a full pot. I usually buy 4-5 gallons at a time. I get a few cycles before changing it out.
 Apply the acid wherever you can without unnecessary overlap, the internal surfaces will end up rusting even if you miss some spots. If you miss a small spot on the inside, you can catch it on the next cycle. It's more important to be neat while wiping the outside than to get everything on the inside. I use Q-tips for hard to reach areas, just don't double dip. Carding usually takes me 15 minutes or so per cycle on a 75.

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2018, 03:34:58 PM »
  Ok, I'm sure there are others with more experience with rust bluing than I and I hope they weigh in as much for your benefit as my own. When I did this I couldn't find an answer to the water question so I used a fresh pot at every cycle. At only about 1/2 gal each time this was the least of the costs involved.
  About the most consistent and detailed information available for rust bluing was from this site and one called, Finishing.com. There is an older thread there that had some good info.
  I believe SP01Shadow had commented to not worry about the frame innards as they would be difficult to card well anyhow. I found that carding took about 10 -20 minutes and that I could boil, card, reapply before going to work and then again when I got home. This was last fall in the upper Midwest so slightly cooler temps and lower humidity. Those variables will be key to rust bloom development.
  I used degreased 0000 steel wool and a degreased small ss brush. Places I couldn't get to didn't worry me. It really doesn't take much friction to knock off the loose velvet layer and as you progress it will become less prominent.
  The final steps become a little bit hazy with mixed comments, but it made sense to me to do an additional boil with some baking soda to ensure that all residual acid was neutralized and then make sure the parts were dried well. I kept a heat gun there that was used to dry, to preheat, etc... throughout the process.   Then soak well in lots of WD40 to make sure the water is thoroughly displaced. After that the parts were warmed and generously rubbed and soaked with boiled linseed oil for day. Finally, wipe down the excess and treat with your favorite gun oil. You'll find some variations to this but it amounts to dewatering and then doing sort of a "curing" that lets an oil with some retentive properties access to the pore structure.
  Looking forward to seeking your results!
Great post, I only differ in one area. I don't use baking soda. I just oil the gun well, it will continue to darken a bit after the final carding. That's how you get really deep color.

Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2018, 03:38:03 PM »
Thanks everyone for your comments. Very helpful.

I have 1 gallon of distilled on hand. I'll only use enough to cover the parts.

Offline Mccian

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2018, 04:27:51 PM »
Good luck Underwhere....looking forward to you sharing successful blueing.....
“Life doesn’t have to be perfect......to be good”

CZ 75 Omega Convertible
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CZ P-10C FDE...shared
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Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2018, 11:18:16 PM »
OK what a night. Very exciting.

Here's what I did.... And then I'll tell you what I think I should have done.

What I did:
Did the controls first, frame second, slide third.

1. Put on gloves.
2. Set half a gallon of distilled water to boil. 3. Removed from acetone and used an air compressor to blow parts dry.
4. Mark Lee instructions say to heat the metal to 150 to 200 degrees with a propane torch and then apply the solution. I tried with my heat gun. It was far too slow. I used a propane torch but my temp gun wouldn't read it very well.
5. Applied solution with a wool dauber and q-tip
6. Repeated steps 4 and 5 two more times
7. Dropped parts in boiling water for 5 minutes
8. Removed from water and immediately blew the parts dry with my air compressor
9. Carded it.

Issues I ran into:
1. I heated up the metal too much. I knew because as soon as I applied the solution it flash boiled on the metal. This caused the solution to essentially harden and raise up a bit on the surface rather than glide smoothly on it. Oops.
2. I applied too much bluing solution. I consciously used very little and it still was too much. It dripped quite a bit on the floor if it gives you any sense of how much I applied. I needed to dip and blot against the sides of the container more.
3. Overall these things caused a non-uniform application however I don't know it that made a difference.
4. I did 3 different boilings. I separated them out. The water was still clear after the controls. However after the frame it was very brown. I didn't change the water and just dropped the slide in. If I had done them all at once they would have had clea  water to boil in. Not sure if it would have made a difference but it does remove one more possible area for error.

Questions. What are these black spots that don't seem to be going away after carding.

Did I do it correctly?
Do I need to redo it? Evaporust and the re-blue?


« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 11:51:40 PM by Underwhere »

Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2018, 11:47:59 PM »
Some more pics

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2018, 06:22:15 AM »
I would try another cycle and see how it looks. Skip the pre-heating step and let it work naturally. Hang the parts in a humid area and give them time to rust. When you apply, you want your patch or swab to be saturated but almost dry- wring it out as much as possible. I use barrel cleaning patches because they're easy to wring out and don't leave lint.

Offline Underwhere

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Re: My Pre-B refinishing and modification diary
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2018, 07:13:09 AM »
I would try another cycle and see how it looks. Skip the pre-heating step and let it work naturally. Hang the parts in a humid area and give them time to rust. When you apply, you want your patch or swab to be saturated but almost dry- wring it out as much as possible. I use barrel cleaning patches because they're easy to wring out and don't leave lint.
OK I'll definitely switch to cleaning patches.

Trying to figure out the humid area part.
I could maybe toss a humidifier in a box. I'd need a large box.

 

anything